Prophecy and the Mullah: Hotel Mohenjodaro

Urstruly - Good job. I rememebred you had posted the same ``fill in the blanks`` for Mantolives as well to clarify whether he is a qadiyani or not. I did not follow it afterwards (as your perhaps know i was kicked out of Chowk for speaking my mind against qadiyanis on Chowk). Could you please tell me if Mantolives did agree to the 3 statements put forth?

Thanks.

tahmad

There is no ned to scream your thraot dry. There is an easier way to explain your position. Just fill in the gaps:




I .............................. S/O.............................. Aged................. .Years, adult Muslim, Resident of..................................................................... hereby solemnly declare that :-

(i) I am Muslim and believe in the absolute and unqualified finality of the prophethood of Muhammad (peace be upon him) the last of the prophets.

(ii) I do not recognise any person who claims to be a prophet in any sense of the word or of any description whatsoever after Muhammad (peace be upon him) or recognise such a claimant as prophet or a religious reformer as a Muslim.

(iii) I consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Quadiani to be an imposter nabi and also consider his followers whether belonging to the Lahori or Qadiani group to be Non-Muslim.

sattar #248 Please cut and paste anuthing I have written to back you statement that my faith has overcome my rationality.

What I am saying is perfectly rational: the Quran itself says that it is a book to make things simple. Not once but many times. And the things it says, consistently and clearly over and over again are there for all to see. It strongly rejects intercessors between man and God. Why then is it necessary for you to look towards other men (``lesser prophets`` in your case, ``religious leaders`` in case of the jamaatiyas) for guidance?

You have failed to provide a reasonable answer to this simple question.

As for my faith in the prophet muhammed - yes it is faith. I have already explained why I consider the prophet muhammed to have been a faithful messenger of God. I will add that my faith in God too rests on common sense - it would in fact be quite incredible to think that mankind alone was endowed with consciousness (as the atheist believes), and even the simplest of understanding of modern physics and biology would make it perfectly rational to believe in a higher order of things.

You refer to an issue you say I ducked - this is the first time you are bringing it up (I dont duck issues) and here is the response: The Quran itself provides a perfectly rational and simple answer in case you missed it - It calls itself the Arabic Quran, which says nothing that has not already been conveyed via earlier prophets, but which is meant for a people (the Arabs) who do not understand the language in which previous messages have been conveyed. This is the answer. It may be too simple for your liking, but it makes perfectly good sense to me.

urstruly: I see you trying to be more clever than you are by repeating your lie that I am an qadiyiani. If you wish to disprove that you are a liar, I challenge you to cut and paste anything I have written to back your lies.

And yes, only a fool would lie in this manner on chowk. Since, unlike the spoken word, all chowk communication is there in black and white for anyone to see. But I guess the filthy habits you picked up when growing up are hard to overcome.

I also understand your problem: in my earlier post I had said that you bootlickers of maududi are no different than the qadiyanis - you both ignore Quranic injunctions that place responsibility on the individual to read and understand the Quran and instead look towards other men for guidance. You ignored the Quranic verses I posted - thus proving that you cannot be considered a muslim, just like the rest of you maududiite rascals. And no honest man would lie in this brazen manner in which you just did. Pathetic man.

echoboom - right on!!!! you are my new hero on chowk. These pathetic creatures like sattar sahib will continue to peel the onion, wasting his time and wasting internet real estate.

sattar - why don`t you preach your qadianiat to qadianis? we are not interested in listening to your bullsh!t. If you like Mirza Qadiyani, then go worship him. you won`t hear us asking why.

It is this messing with other people`s business that is making your fellow qadiyanis life so difficult in Pakistan. You can keep throwing insults our way, but at least be kind to your ilk in Pakistan.

Perhaps I am the village idiot whom you guys are constantly referring to. I fail to understand why two quadianis are having this argument in the first place. May be tahamad belongs to Lahori group or is it vice versa.

An interview:

What`s your name?

My name is Abu Mantaqque

Great & unusual name.How do you know that it is yours?

Well, I just wrote it here. Here`s my I.D card

Who applied for your I.D card?

I did

(laughing) So thats why I should believe you really are Mr. Al-Haqque

I guess so. Or you can ask my father who named me

But he is YOUR father..(an aside) or so he claims. O.K

Ican prove by DNA etc

Sure. From where?

from science labs

(smirk) science labs? who runs those labs?

scientists of-course

Who claimed that DNA is a fool-proof method?

Scientists

And you want the proof from those promoters of their own profession & creed.

( exasperated) then what do you want me to do

Just say: ``That is all I know, just believe me``. If you ever try be speciously logical and cynical like Diogenes, you won`t get anywhere. Most of the everyday practical ``un-educated`` folk live on conventions and wisdom which mankind has accumulated.

Never peel an onion--you`ll weep for nothing

(Just coined it--like it?)

Tahmed Sahib …

It seems your faith has subdued your rationality ...

You seem to argue that Muhammad was true, since he limited his own role in Quran.

Sahib … this is the oldest trick to con village idiots. Every con artist wins people’s trust by telling him he has nothing personal to gain. Sorry, your reasoning fails to measure up.

As I earlier pointed out … in the mock Q&A bit … all you have is Muhammad’s own word to show that he was a prophet. This indeed is circular reasoning … and you have proven me right on the mark. Thanks for the show of confidence. So, here we go again … Q: How do you know Muhammad was a prophet? A: The book shows he was genuine. Q: Well … who wrote the book? A: Mohammad did. Got it?


Moving on to the issue you have ducked several times in the past …

Quran made things simple. And so did Torah. But Allah still raised prophets as people went astray. Your selective memory of Quran is very convenient.

Every social ill mentioned in Quran is abundantly present in this world, today. You have failed to explain why prophets appeared earlier, but will appear no more? Yours is an illogical conclusion.


And finally ...

Sahib … if you want to follow that middle-aged arab named Muhammad … and think the book he wrote will take you places … knock yourself out. But owing to common sense and intelligence, stop criticizing those who follow their own prophets. Important thing is that people follow their prophets, gods, or wives in a civil, peaceful manner.

And that is a simple enough point that must be appreciated.

++++++++++

Maududi Sahib …

… if you get your tiny head out of the hole in the wall … you may realize that I am applying tahmed Sahib’s criterion … to his own beliefs... to highlight inconsistency of his approach.

Quran and stuff are good … but are no substitute for basic decency. You seem to have quite a bit of one … and very little of the other.

sattar shaib you wrote - ``Get this ... an illiterate Arab went into a cave 1400 years ago, claimed that god spoke to him, went on to write a book``

sounds intriguing. doesn`t it? that an illiterate person would WRITE such a book that would find its place in the greatest books in world history !!!

then you utter a pathetic sentence ``I follow Islam according to my understanding, and am quite comfortable with my take on things. ``

so you still are resigned to follow the religion, which according to you, was started by a ``middle aged illiterate man in ancient times``???? !!!

There is no shortage of idiotic superficial wanna bes in this world after all!

Tahemed32 - I have nothing to say to you brother. Please be happy in whatever knowledge you think you have and are content with.

maududi #243 ``- People of the book according to Islam are:`` You say this after ignoring the verses I mentioned that make it clear that what you say is ``according to Islam`` is the opposite of what the Quran says. This is a perfect example of the way you maududiites have replaced the Quran with your own views. How dare you rascals disgrace my religion in this manner?

(I had ignored your last two posts addressed to me, ignored the rubbish you posted to another poser about my ``motives`` behind exposing your hypocrisy, but will not let you get away with covering up the Quranic message with your own mullah ideology.)

sattar2 #244 Your questions have no relevance to the point I made. Kindly address the point I made: i.e. that if the Quran itself says that it is a book to make things simple, why do you need some other man (a ``lesser prophet`` in your case, or maududi, or some other ``aalim`` or any any other man, it does not matter) to explain it to you?

btw, the answers you provided to your own questions are not correct. Here are the questions and the correct answers:

Q: How do you know Muhammad told the truth?
Your Answer: Well … the book says so.

Wrong answer. The reason I consider Muhammad to have spoken the truth is because I am convinced he was an honest man who tried to convey the message as best he could. The reason I am convinced that he was a faithful messenger is very simple: references made to his own role in society are clearly geared to place limits on them (as being a messenger, a warner, and no more - NOT as caliph or king or mard-i-momin or anything that charlatans coming after him have tried to do through the ages).

Q: Ok … and who wrote this book?
Your answer Huh? ... of course, Muhammad did.
Correct answer: Scribes organized by the caliph usman wrote the current version of the Quran, in response to complaints from muslim generals about different versions of the Quran being used in different corners of the realm.

You say: Duh! … duh!! … duh …!!!
Exactly!! THAT is the sum total of all arguments I have heard from you or from others who look towards other men for guidance and ignore the teachings of the Quran. I pray for the day that muslims learn to be honest and start using their own eyes and brains and end their slavish mentality that history seems to have instilled in them. Amen.

Tahmed Sahib (#240),

Given enough time, the mullah in you eventually takes over … and you start bashing everyone who disagrees with you. Apparently having a civil discourse is not possible for you (so much for following Quran). I follow Islam according to my understanding, and am quite comfortable with my take on things.

You claim that Ahmadis follow human beings. Depending on what this means … you actually do the same … but are not smart enough to realize this! Get this ... an illiterate Arab went into a cave 1400 years ago, claimed that god spoke to him, went on to write a book, and presented it as the word of the invisible god. And today you swear by this book, go around claiming that god spoke to humanity through Muhammad ... and will debate on what god said, what he meant ... and what not. All this based on a book authored by a middle-aged man in ancient times. Get real, pal ...

Here`s a reality check:

Q: How do you know Muhammad told the truth?
A: Well … the book says so.

Q: Ok … and who wrote this book?
A: Huh? ... of course, Muhammad did.

Duh! … duh!! … duh …!!!
You seem to lack basic intelligence to appreciate this irony …

Last time we discussed Quran, you did not have much to say … except avoiding questions and telling pathan jokes. So pardon my Sahib … if I fail to take your ramblings seriously … and instead, write you off as yet another high-strung, annoying muslim …

Just to put this ``tangential`` discussion to a closure:

- There is NOTHING in Islam that says that we should not respect other religions. `lakum deenokum wali-addin` - explains it all. For those who are creating this impression that ``some people`` promote the idea that Islam is against other religions - are merely creating a target just so that they can shoot it down. Thats a fun thing to do - make up an argument in the name of ``other`` people, and then shoot down that argument with your own limited knowledge :)

- reading Quran is individual`s responsibility, however it does not absolve the person making arguments like ``islam says this...`` and ``islam says that...`` to provide the exact quotation, surah or ayah to back up his assertions. If nothing else, he may educate his interactors. But when he gets defensive about it, and even angry at ``having to quote a ayah``, then you know that the person has nothing useful to contribute and merely wasting time with his heresay.

- People of the book according to Islam are: taurah (old testament, people of Moses), zaboor (not in existence, but was for the people of Daaudo r David), Injeel (new testament or bible, for the people of Jesus), and Quran (for muslims).

Mohar,

I am merely pointing out that using the logic of the Quran, that Tahmed is arguing by, everyone on this planet atleast is amongst the people of the book. Besides there is no one kind of Hinduism either... and on the huge pantheon of Gods and goddesses rests Brahma .... who in attributes is similar to that of the Islamic god.

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Raw_Dust: You can see ``No`` written and disagree and say you interpret it to be ``Yes``, if you wish. No skin off my back what you wish to believe. Doesnt make any sense to me - but dont worry about me. I`ll be fine regardless of what you choose to believe.

When you tell me that I should give maududilives his space, please review the discussion before reaching conclusions. I not used any foul language (he has, on the other hand, although ``only once`` as he reminded me as if that makes any difference - and no apologies, nor regrets), nor have I called him any names other than the one he has chosen to define his presence on chowk (maududiite) whereas he has started at least two posts addressing me as a retard.

While I can understand your emotional sympathies with him (after all, he is repeating the piece of rubbish too many muslims like to believe in - namely that they are something special and people of other religions are not), with all due respect I would suggest your post would have been better directed to him.

I would also add that if someone wishes to glorify maududi (and by definition, his abuse of islam) in the privacy of his home that is fine. But when he does that on chowk - any poster has the right to challenge him.

Finally: you asked me a question, which I assumed was in all sincerity, and I took the time to find the Quranic verses for you. I can see you dont appreciate the time I took, and chose to simply tell me that you ``disagree``. I dont consider this behavior any different than that of escapist (to whom I have stopped responding, after going through a similar waste of time with him).

So go on faking that you people are muslims and respect the Quran - you have demonstrated in this interaction the level of respect you have. This in an microcosm is an example of the hypocrisy that pervades the muslim world. And how far removed their mindsets are from the book they all profess to venerate.