Re-thinking Kashmir
Beena Sarwar July 4, 2004
#74 Posted by Layman on July 7, 2004 1:56:08 am
Urstruly #59:
``It is time for hindus to RE-THINK kashmir. Sooner or later you will have to cough it up. Sooner the better.``
Heh heh, funnyman Urstruly, indulging in wishful thinking and divorced from reality as usual, like the Puki army. We can fight the terrorists that you send across to J&K indefinitely. We have the money and the manpower and the willpower. It is your pathetic nation that is going to suffer - when the jihadis turn their sights onto Musharraf, Karachi, your Shia-Sunni professionals, mosques etc.
You have already coughed up East Pakistan (remember?). NWFP is slipping from your grasp and was never yours. Kargil was on the Puki side till 1971. You have also coughed up Siachen to us (thank you!). The day is not far when you will have to cough up PoK and Sindh. The sooner the better.
``It is time for hindus to RE-THINK kashmir. Sooner or later you will have to cough it up. Sooner the better.``
Heh heh, funnyman Urstruly, indulging in wishful thinking and divorced from reality as usual, like the Puki army. We can fight the terrorists that you send across to J&K indefinitely. We have the money and the manpower and the willpower. It is your pathetic nation that is going to suffer - when the jihadis turn their sights onto Musharraf, Karachi, your Shia-Sunni professionals, mosques etc.
You have already coughed up East Pakistan (remember?). NWFP is slipping from your grasp and was never yours. Kargil was on the Puki side till 1971. You have also coughed up Siachen to us (thank you!). The day is not far when you will have to cough up PoK and Sindh. The sooner the better.
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#73 Posted by harish_hyd on July 6, 2004 10:10:03 pm
#59, 71 by Urstruly
You have tried it thrice and your butts were handed to you on a platter each time. So now you resort to other tactics? Remember, the resolve of 1 billion Indians (and yes, that includes Muslims) is behind our Kashmir policy. So mouth off as much as you can, for that`s ALL you can do.
You have tried it thrice and your butts were handed to you on a platter each time. So now you resort to other tactics? Remember, the resolve of 1 billion Indians (and yes, that includes Muslims) is behind our Kashmir policy. So mouth off as much as you can, for that`s ALL you can do.
#71 Posted by Urstruly on July 6, 2004 8:00:48 pm
Kashmir is a no-go area for any hindu from the mainland anyway - anyone who dares go there goes at the risk of being beheaded or being shot at. It is as good as not having it. So why bother? It is true that for you hindus everything is chamri jaye par damRi na jaye, but if you look hard it is clear that you are losing both chamRi and damRi over at Kashmir. So why bother?
#70 Posted by ballukhan on July 6, 2004 5:23:24 pm
Sadna
``..The reason is that declaring India a Hindu rashtra will then be the last remaining chance to remove this dangerous and prolonged ambiguity of India being a defacto Hindu homeland and dejure secular state, a dangerous ambiguity which has made Indian Muslims sitting ducks since independence. This ambiguity will only increase after a communal solution in J&K, putting Indian Muslims at greater risk..``
Yes, Sadna you are right, the IM also consider their future interwined with the issue of resolution of the Kashmir not on the basis of communal question and TNT but on cultural uniqueness of the region such as its `kashmiriyat`. So redrawing of the international borders is impossible- so is the `exchange` of populations. You are right in stating that IM have become sitting ducks because the communal question has been kept `open` by giving a special status to kashmir- and this has kept ths issue of TNT alive since so many years. Remember, it is the Paki establishment which has played with the mullahs to keep their TNT alive and are now paying a huge price for sponsering jehadism. IM have as much a right to India as any other Hindu like Stuka of DM and these people do not decide whether IM including kashmiri muslims would agree to any raising the communal question again in this country. The fact remains that TNT was long buried in 1947 when the IM decided NOT to migrate to that fabled land of pure. Their decision is irreversible and the Indian Constitution has to honor its obligations by ensuring that people like Dost Mittar or Stuka do not raise this communal question again.
I think dost mittar is turning senile and weak that he can even contemplate of the communal solution- I am amazed!
``..The reason is that declaring India a Hindu rashtra will then be the last remaining chance to remove this dangerous and prolonged ambiguity of India being a defacto Hindu homeland and dejure secular state, a dangerous ambiguity which has made Indian Muslims sitting ducks since independence. This ambiguity will only increase after a communal solution in J&K, putting Indian Muslims at greater risk..``
Yes, Sadna you are right, the IM also consider their future interwined with the issue of resolution of the Kashmir not on the basis of communal question and TNT but on cultural uniqueness of the region such as its `kashmiriyat`. So redrawing of the international borders is impossible- so is the `exchange` of populations. You are right in stating that IM have become sitting ducks because the communal question has been kept `open` by giving a special status to kashmir- and this has kept ths issue of TNT alive since so many years. Remember, it is the Paki establishment which has played with the mullahs to keep their TNT alive and are now paying a huge price for sponsering jehadism. IM have as much a right to India as any other Hindu like Stuka of DM and these people do not decide whether IM including kashmiri muslims would agree to any raising the communal question again in this country. The fact remains that TNT was long buried in 1947 when the IM decided NOT to migrate to that fabled land of pure. Their decision is irreversible and the Indian Constitution has to honor its obligations by ensuring that people like Dost Mittar or Stuka do not raise this communal question again.
I think dost mittar is turning senile and weak that he can even contemplate of the communal solution- I am amazed!
#69 Posted by ballukhan on July 6, 2004 5:23:24 pm
Sadna
``..The reason is that declaring India a Hindu rashtra will then be the last remaining chance to remove this dangerous and prolonged ambiguity of India being a defacto Hindu homeland and dejure secular state, a dangerous ambiguity which has made Indian Muslims sitting ducks since independence. This ambiguity will only increase after a communal solution in J&K, putting Indian Muslims at greater risk..``
Yes, Sadna you are right, the IM also consider their future interwined with the issue of resolution of the Kashmir not on the basis of communal question and TNT but on cultural uniqueness of the region such as its `kashmiriyat`. So redrawing of the international borders is impossible- so is the `exchange` of populations. You are right in stating that IM have become sitting ducks because the communal question has been kept `open` by giving a special status to kashmir- and this has kept ths issue of TNT alive since so many years. Remember, it is the Paki establishment which has played with the mullahs to keep their TNT alive and are now paying a huge price for sponsering jehadism. IM have as much a right to India as any other Hindu like Stuka of DM and these people do not decide whether IM including kashmiri muslims would agree to any raising the communal question again in this country. The fact remains that TNT was long buried in 1947 when the IM decided NOT to migrate to that fabled land of pure. Their decision is irreversible and the Indian Constitution has to honor its obligations by ensuring that people like Dost Mittar or Stuka do not raise this communal question again.
I think dost mittar is turning senile and weak that he can even contemplate of the communal solution- I am amazed!
``..The reason is that declaring India a Hindu rashtra will then be the last remaining chance to remove this dangerous and prolonged ambiguity of India being a defacto Hindu homeland and dejure secular state, a dangerous ambiguity which has made Indian Muslims sitting ducks since independence. This ambiguity will only increase after a communal solution in J&K, putting Indian Muslims at greater risk..``
Yes, Sadna you are right, the IM also consider their future interwined with the issue of resolution of the Kashmir not on the basis of communal question and TNT but on cultural uniqueness of the region such as its `kashmiriyat`. So redrawing of the international borders is impossible- so is the `exchange` of populations. You are right in stating that IM have become sitting ducks because the communal question has been kept `open` by giving a special status to kashmir- and this has kept ths issue of TNT alive since so many years. Remember, it is the Paki establishment which has played with the mullahs to keep their TNT alive and are now paying a huge price for sponsering jehadism. IM have as much a right to India as any other Hindu like Stuka of DM and these people do not decide whether IM including kashmiri muslims would agree to any raising the communal question again in this country. The fact remains that TNT was long buried in 1947 when the IM decided NOT to migrate to that fabled land of pure. Their decision is irreversible and the Indian Constitution has to honor its obligations by ensuring that people like Dost Mittar or Stuka do not raise this communal question again.
I think dost mittar is turning senile and weak that he can even contemplate of the communal solution- I am amazed!
#68 Posted by Lifta on July 6, 2004 5:23:24 pm
Its supplement to ZahraJ`s ... not only Kashmir issue but everybody knows that how the government/education system tries to make fool out of everybody, oh common people look at the world around, in fact we act like ``KunweN ke maindak`` ...
#67 Posted by nikki7777 on July 6, 2004 3:13:03 pm
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#66 Posted by ZahraJ on July 6, 2004 2:47:38 pm
On Kashmir: The very mention of Kashmir should be completely erased from the text books in Pakistan. Period! This step ought to be taken regardless of the route adopted to resolve the hovering issues of Kashmir. It`s a terrible and horrible topic to teach students at any level. The poor student does not learn anything from the ongoing and upcoming ``bukwas``. They can certainly consult the newspaper for the current developments in the region, provided they find the newspaper(s) worth reading.
#65 Posted by sadna on July 6, 2004 1:42:13 pm
dost-mittar #60
``.because right or wrong, we have a secular state in India. Maybe it was a mistake India made in 1947 and they should have done the same to muslims what was done to hindus and sikhs in Pakistan, but we made a choice then and have to live with it. ``.``
Precisely. A secular state can not be sustained if it keeps revising itself to concede Muslim homelands, itself becoming a defacto Hindu homeland for cleansed populations. If Pakistan and Bangladesh had ever been willing to repatriate Hindus and Sikhs and given them equal rights, then finding a J&K solution would have been easy. Here we have even Valley Muslims refusing to repatriate Valley Hindus.
``As for creating another `revisionist jihadic state on its border`, if this happens, this state will require less subsidies and fewer troops than are needed to keep it as a more or less ``occupied territory.``
IMO, it is wishful thinking that conflict levels will come down. There is enough rhetoric and enough uncontrollable factionalism among Kashmiris and Pakistanis to sustain the conflict at the same level despite any solution as you and stuka suggest - there are enough factions which would consider any solution like `hand the valley over` to be merely interim.
The Kashmir polity is badly split and pulling in different directions, a lot like Afghan warlords with Geelani the Pakistani proxy fundo Kashmiri like Gulbuddin Hekmatyar was their proxy fundo Afghan. Gulbuddin Hekmatyar with all his extremeness, US weapons and Pakistan`s backing could not impose a solution on Afghanistan. He got full support to eliminate his rivals for power, much like Geelani`s rivals have been killed one by one. Najibullah was brutally murdered and his body hung in the open for a week for the sin of being a Soviet collaborator. What do you think will happen to the Abdullah or Mufti Sayeed family or the remaining members of political parties, which are already getting murdered one by one?
Some one is needed to impose the peace in any secceded portion of J&K to prevent it from slipping into armed chaos, if you are saying it is the Pakistani Army, then why say you are not appeasing Pakistan - because that is precisely what they have been demanding.
You are also assuming that the geography of the place is such that after withdrawing from some parts, it makes it easier for Indian Army to defend the territory it retains - while if I am not mistaken, the geography is such that India`s defence of its remaining territory becomes even more intractable.
dostji, we will never agree on this. I will therefore cease and desist. One thing is that in the unlikely scenario that India ever concedes a communal solution(any surrender of sovereignty will essentially be a communal solution), as I have said before, I will then stand behind any campaign for declaring India a Hindu rashtra.
The reason is that declaring India a Hindu rashtra will then be the last remaining chance to remove this dangerous and prolonged ambiguity of India being a defacto Hindu homeland and dejure secular state, a dangerous ambiguity which has made Indian Muslims sitting ducks since independence. This ambiguity will only increase after a communal solution in J&K, putting Indian Muslims at greater risk. The ambiguity must be ended for the sake of their physical safety, and IMO, if they are unhappier but physically safer in a dejure Hindu rashtra, so be it.
``.because right or wrong, we have a secular state in India. Maybe it was a mistake India made in 1947 and they should have done the same to muslims what was done to hindus and sikhs in Pakistan, but we made a choice then and have to live with it. ``.``
Precisely. A secular state can not be sustained if it keeps revising itself to concede Muslim homelands, itself becoming a defacto Hindu homeland for cleansed populations. If Pakistan and Bangladesh had ever been willing to repatriate Hindus and Sikhs and given them equal rights, then finding a J&K solution would have been easy. Here we have even Valley Muslims refusing to repatriate Valley Hindus.
``As for creating another `revisionist jihadic state on its border`, if this happens, this state will require less subsidies and fewer troops than are needed to keep it as a more or less ``occupied territory.``
IMO, it is wishful thinking that conflict levels will come down. There is enough rhetoric and enough uncontrollable factionalism among Kashmiris and Pakistanis to sustain the conflict at the same level despite any solution as you and stuka suggest - there are enough factions which would consider any solution like `hand the valley over` to be merely interim.
The Kashmir polity is badly split and pulling in different directions, a lot like Afghan warlords with Geelani the Pakistani proxy fundo Kashmiri like Gulbuddin Hekmatyar was their proxy fundo Afghan. Gulbuddin Hekmatyar with all his extremeness, US weapons and Pakistan`s backing could not impose a solution on Afghanistan. He got full support to eliminate his rivals for power, much like Geelani`s rivals have been killed one by one. Najibullah was brutally murdered and his body hung in the open for a week for the sin of being a Soviet collaborator. What do you think will happen to the Abdullah or Mufti Sayeed family or the remaining members of political parties, which are already getting murdered one by one?
Some one is needed to impose the peace in any secceded portion of J&K to prevent it from slipping into armed chaos, if you are saying it is the Pakistani Army, then why say you are not appeasing Pakistan - because that is precisely what they have been demanding.
You are also assuming that the geography of the place is such that after withdrawing from some parts, it makes it easier for Indian Army to defend the territory it retains - while if I am not mistaken, the geography is such that India`s defence of its remaining territory becomes even more intractable.
dostji, we will never agree on this. I will therefore cease and desist. One thing is that in the unlikely scenario that India ever concedes a communal solution(any surrender of sovereignty will essentially be a communal solution), as I have said before, I will then stand behind any campaign for declaring India a Hindu rashtra.
The reason is that declaring India a Hindu rashtra will then be the last remaining chance to remove this dangerous and prolonged ambiguity of India being a defacto Hindu homeland and dejure secular state, a dangerous ambiguity which has made Indian Muslims sitting ducks since independence. This ambiguity will only increase after a communal solution in J&K, putting Indian Muslims at greater risk. The ambiguity must be ended for the sake of their physical safety, and IMO, if they are unhappier but physically safer in a dejure Hindu rashtra, so be it.
#64 Posted by stuka on July 6, 2004 1:37:43 pm
#59
Dude, it is sentiments like these that make me hawkish. Jai tussi lad kai lai sakdey ho to lai lo. We are also not playing fricking marbles.
Dude, it is sentiments like these that make me hawkish. Jai tussi lad kai lai sakdey ho to lai lo. We are also not playing fricking marbles.
#63 Posted by stuka on July 6, 2004 1:37:38 pm
#59
Dude, it is sentiments like these that make me hawkish. Jai tussi lad kai lai sakdey ho to lai lo. We are also not playing fricking marbles.
Dude, it is sentiments like these that make me hawkish. Jai tussi lad kai lai sakdey ho to lai lo. We are also not playing fricking marbles.
#62 Posted by stuka on July 6, 2004 1:30:36 pm
Faruk:
``I think your idea is flawed. What would autonomy / handover achieve? Make the goons in charge! They would implement their laws and no one can question them. This is exactly what the goons want their fiefdom.``
But at least it would not be our problem.
By status quo I meant that Indians do not have a desire to either fight for POK or give up Kashmir. I think that is in line with current thinking even now. Can you extrapolate your point?
``I think your idea is flawed. What would autonomy / handover achieve? Make the goons in charge! They would implement their laws and no one can question them. This is exactly what the goons want their fiefdom.``
But at least it would not be our problem.
By status quo I meant that Indians do not have a desire to either fight for POK or give up Kashmir. I think that is in line with current thinking even now. Can you extrapolate your point?
#61 Posted by kaurasach on July 6, 2004 1:09:21 pm
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#60 Posted by dost_mittar on July 6, 2004 12:51:12 pm
sadna:
I favour stuka`s solution not to apease Pakistan but because I think it is good for India. What good is keeping the valley which is already almost 100% muslims if they dont want to be in India? As for ``drive out the Hindus and Sikhs, kill a lot of people,`` this has aleady happened and our govt. was unable to stop it.
``why should the Valley Muslims be given a foot in Indian Kashmir after getting their own state - what does India get out if it except yet another revisionist jihadic state on its borders ?``
..because right or wrong, we have a secular state in India. Maybe it was a mistake India made in 1947 and they should have done the same to muslims what was done to hindus and sikhs in Pakistan, but we made a choice then and have to live with it. As for creating another `revisionist jihadic state on its border`, if this happens, this state will require less subsidies and fewer troops than are needed to keep it as a more or less ``occupied territory``.
``And who is going to enforce the payments of compensation to nonMuslims and who will keep the peace - a US-led international army?``
the territory should be ceded only after the compensation has been received. And is the US army keeping peace on the international border now? if not now, why then?
I favour stuka`s solution not to apease Pakistan but because I think it is good for India. What good is keeping the valley which is already almost 100% muslims if they dont want to be in India? As for ``drive out the Hindus and Sikhs, kill a lot of people,`` this has aleady happened and our govt. was unable to stop it.
``why should the Valley Muslims be given a foot in Indian Kashmir after getting their own state - what does India get out if it except yet another revisionist jihadic state on its borders ?``
..because right or wrong, we have a secular state in India. Maybe it was a mistake India made in 1947 and they should have done the same to muslims what was done to hindus and sikhs in Pakistan, but we made a choice then and have to live with it. As for creating another `revisionist jihadic state on its border`, if this happens, this state will require less subsidies and fewer troops than are needed to keep it as a more or less ``occupied territory``.
``And who is going to enforce the payments of compensation to nonMuslims and who will keep the peace - a US-led international army?``
the territory should be ceded only after the compensation has been received. And is the US army keeping peace on the international border now? if not now, why then?
#59 Posted by Urstruly on July 6, 2004 12:47:21 pm
It is time for hindus to RE-THINK kashmir. Sooner or later you will have to cough it up. Sooner the better.
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