Re-thinking Kashmir

#31 by stuka on July 5, 2004 8:23pm PT
Kashmir may be irrelevant to your dialy existence economically or otherwise- it becomes ``core issue`` for those who oppose TNT and Jehadism. In that sense the struggle is more at an ideological level- that is why I said that it is another stepping stone for the success of further Jehadism in the sub-continent and hence would be opposed at all costs.

Ref stuka #29

[Let the valley go to Pakistan...]

After we nuke Srinagar. And Muzaffarpur.

#29 Stuka

Transfer of population along sectarian lines will solve the Kashmir issue? I guess it ``solved`` the problem so well in the rest of india. NOT !

Sorry, I have to disagree. As for students disagreeing with the goverment and throwing rocks in the streets, I saw that happen every week in Calcutta in the 70s. I don`t recall anyone suggesting that certain neighborhoods in Calcutta should be given independence.

The Kashmiris are due a certain amount of symbolic autonomy (in addition to the cultural and social rights they already enjoy) as are the Nagas. Once the violence is more manageable. and economic and educational integration with rest of India is more complete, we should go ahead and just do that. And until then, we have a large population and certain number are happy to serve in the police and military.

I think Veeresh (#1) said it best and everyone else is just more or saying the same thing in different ways (and accents)

Kashmir means nothing to India, other than being a rather cold place people used to honeymoon a lot in. But the thought of losing Kashmir (what you Pakis deride as the ``atoot ang`` theory) is pretty muc inconceivable, at least for this generation and probably the next. Which is why a lot of Indians are resigned to the fact that this is one problem which is not going to be resolved in our lifetimes. So we just chill and ignore it. As long as there are soldiers willing to go in there and take the heat for the rest of us, we`re happy leading our mundane little lives and making the right patriotic noises every time soneone says ``freedom fighter`` and ``Kashmir`` in the same breath.

One thing has always puzzled me- and Been`a article doesn`t help much here- why would any sensible bunch of people want to join a country as warped as Pakistan when you have a nice alternative like India? Maybe they should have that damned plebiscite huh?

Kashmir is central and ``core`` on the agenda of the Jehadists who consider this to be a milestone in the overall plan towards the grand polarization of the the world into believers and non-believers. Considering Kashmir as even an issue requiring discussion with Pakistan because the suicide attacks have increased is to concede the right of the Jehadi Masters to negotiate on account of their ability to indulge in perversities.
Kashmir will keep on figuring in the news items for the jehadi violence- and you would keep on wondering why it is happening just as you wondered why 9/11 happened in the first place. By aiding the TNTist and even contempolating upon the possibility of a partition of Kashmir you would be abetting them in their grand fascist plan.

HP:

No problem


Dost Mitter:

TNT was expressed very well by Punjabis on both sides. More so then any part of India.

I a talking about an actual transfer of populations encouraged by the security forces. It did happen in Palestine in 1948 and in Bosnia as well. The human rights of the Jammu/ Ladakh Muslims can be looked after by Pakistan once they reach there.

Indian Muslims outside Kashmir have never had a stake in Kashmir. It is unfair to hold them liable for what happens in Kashmir. I am talking about a communal transfer of territory and populations in accordance with the demographic mix of J&K.

stuka:
``But isn`t TNTism justified where two communities cannot live with each other?``

The TNT was not espoused by the panjabis who had no problem living with each other. Yes, Iqbal was a panjabi but he had to go to Allahabad to present his theory.

``Let the valley go to Pakistan and we should kick out the Muslims from Jammu and Ladakh in retaliation of Hindus being kicked out of Punjab``

Kuj soch samajh ke gal karo!...what about the constitutional/human rights of Jammu muslims? And if you are counting on the mob law to accomplish the ``kicking out``, how will you stop the mob violence from spreading to the rest of India?

#25 by stuka

I will get back to you some other time. There is not point in adding more dimensions to this feeding frenzy and Natak.

Ref Urstruly #24

[The freedom of Kashmir is just a matter of time. When time comes, all idols crumble to ground and all walls are razed.]

Actually, before idols crumble I think the Koran will go up in flames. In fact, an ancient copy did just that yesterday in Srinagar!

Urstruly #24: ``The freedom of Kashmir is just a matter of time. When time comes, all idols crumble to ground and all walls are razed.``

Urstruly saab, could you please define how much time? Is it eternity? Your army masters have been saying this for a long time.

Urstruly,

`71 ki maar bhool gaye kya? Looks like the crash course offered in Kargil also didn`t help cure your jaundiced vision.

Ballukhan:

But isn`t TNTism justified where two communities cannot live with each other?

I am a Punjabi and my family was uprooted from its ancestral homes. I am not claiming special victim status. Same thing happened to Muslims in east Punjab and UP, Bihar and Bengal. Contrast that with the deccan and below which has been relatively free of communal differences and the Pakistan movement never caught on. So why should the communal virus strain relations in another part of the country just because Hindus and Muslims cannot get along in another part?

As long as Pakistan considers Kashmir as a ``core issue`` and tries to push it on the rest of the world by using suicidal Jehadis I cannot see it coming out of the the current mess. Remember that apart from the world views of the Paki Generals who attempt wars like in Kargil, Kashmir gets figured in the worldly delusions of people like Salahuddin and OBL which gets linked to the unfinished business of TNT in the sub-continet and the begining of TNT on a world wide basis. In that sense Kashmir is central to the existence of Paki Jehadism because if it succeeds it would again be considered as a successful venture of Jehadism and TNT. (remember what Mush had to say about Kargil as achieving its objective). While the Jehadist would try imposing TNT on a world wide scale by blowing more Trade Towers and wiping out entire cities of the non-believers the Paki Generals would ensure that Kashmir would be cited by these Jehadis to the Ummah as another successful venture of TNT-ism .

PMishra:

Dude, the people who came out on the streets were probably protesting Indian rule only. Even when Lone was killed his son first blamed the ISI, which was probably the truth as Lone was an open moderate. But he later changed his tune and started blaming security forces.

Honestly, I wonder why we hold on to Kashmir valley. The damn territiry is more trouble then its worth. Let the valley go to Pakistan and we should kick out the Muslims from Jammu and Ladakh in retaliation of Hindus being kicked out of Punjab. I don`t buy this bull4hit theory that Kashmir cannot be divided and it is a struggle for ``Kashmiriyat``.

Hardly anyone speaks Kashmiri in POK but there is no insurgency there. Kashmiri is maintained in Indian Kashmir and yet people hate India even though India gave more autonomy. Also, it is a communal solution to a communal problem. If Punjab could be divided amongst religious lines in 1947 why the hell can`t we not divide Jammu and Kashmir.

[quote]
Conservative Indian thought will also resent the film’s presentation of the disillusionment of the Kashmirs with Indian rule, as encapsulated through a candid interview with the wild-bearded Hizb commander Syed Salahuddin.

[end-quote]

Heh, heh, sure, this is really convincing. Why stop at a murderous thug like Salahuddin as a representative ``freedom fighter``? Why not roll in the paki stooge Geelani (annual payment $100,000) from the valley as well? Indian analysts have estimated that peak funding of the Kashmir insurgency has exceeded $100 million is some years.

This money is now being used to openly murder kashmiris and especially destroy their culture. Here is some more freedom struggle:

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Kashmir-School-Burned.html

SRINAGAR, India (AP) -- Kashmir`s oldest school was burned down Monday, destroying one of the world`s oldest copies of the Quran and thousands of other rare Islamic texts, in a suspected arson attack that some blamed on Islamic militants targeting moderate Muslim leaders.

The destruction shocked many in the disputed Himalayan territory, with the loss of the 105-year-old Islamia Higher Secondary School -- where some of the region`s most prominent figures studied -- and of its 30,000-book library.

People came out into the streets in protest in Srinagar, the capital of India`s Jammu-Kashmir state, and shut down shops. Hundreds of the school`s students staged a protest march.

The school, set up in 1899, was a landmark symbol of the movement to modernize Islam -- the region`s first religious school to offer courses in English and the sciences. The brick and wood structure in the center of Srinigar also had architectural value with its high arched windows and ceilings of cedar logs.

On Monday, the building was reduced to the charred brick skeleton, with soot and burned-out book and furniture strewn around the premises.

The library, which included one of the rarest manuscripts of the Quran, handwritten by Usman bin Affan -- the third ``Righteous Caliph`` of Islam -- was completely destroyed, said Shahid-ul-Islam, party secretary of the Awami Action Committee.

No one claimed responsibility for Monday`s blaze, senior police officer Javed Ahmad said.

The school was run by a religious and educational trust led by Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, Kashmir`s highest Islamic leader and head of the Awami Action Committee, who has been targeted in recent months by suspected Islamic militants fighting for Kashmir`s independence from India or its merger with Pakistan since 1989.

Farooq is also a leader of the All Parties Hurriyat Conference, a political grouping that seeks independence from India but has used political methods instead of insurgency -- bringing accusations from militants that the movement is pro-India.

Farooq`s uncle was killed by unidentified attackers while praying in a mosque on May 29. Police blamed Islamic insurgents for the attack.

``Those who were behind my uncle`s killing are responsible for Monday`s arson. By doing this, these people want to weaken us and our institutions,`` Farooq told The Associated Press in Srinagar, the summer capital of India`s Jammu-Kashmir state.

Islamic guerrillas often target moderate Muslims, even ones that seek Kashmir`s independence from India through peaceful means. Two moderate Kashmiri separatist leaders, Mohammad Farooq and Abdul Ghani Lone, were killed last year by suspected rebels.

Farooq`s father, Mirwaiz Mohammed Farooq, was killed by suspected insurgents in his home in Srinager in 1990.

Moderate leaders started a dialogue with the Indian government in January and are scheduled to hold a third round of talks this month. Kashmir has been divided between India and Pakistan since 1949.

The school, with some 2,500 students, was closely identified with Farooq and his movement. It was first started under a trust set up by Farooq`s grand uncle, Mirwaiz Rasul Shah, and Farooq now heads the school`s trust, called the Anjuman-e-Nusrat-ul Islam, or Society for the Victory of Islam.

``The school was Kashmir`s first step toward modernity,`` said a tearful Ashraf Andrabi, a retired engineer and a former student. ``It has been the alma mater of everybody who has been anybody in Kashmir.``

Until 1989 -- when the separatist Islamic insurgency broke out -- the school employed teachers from Kashmir`s Hindu community. But they fled after attacks began on Hindus during the uprising.

The militants want Kashmir to be independent or merged into neighboring Muslim-majority Pakistan. The violence since 1989 has killed about 65,000 people, and is one of the main points of discord between nuclear-armed neighbors India and Pakistan.

i wonder how many of u think Kashmir is solely an internal issue for india. if so why are they now thinking of negotiating it with pakistan. my take on this is that if india has to give up its military presence in the region or has to give up kashmir to pakistan or it is made a autonomous self governing state, other states in india might want self rule as well. we are all well aware of all the problems india faces internally (sic!) in some of thier other states desiring self rule.