Re-thinking Kashmir

HP/16, ok, I buy your point of view. So let me try to reword mine?

````Let me try to, if I may, place the view from my perspective as an equally avid watcher?

a) Kashmir is THE ``core`` issue for Pakistan. It becomes a reason for Pakistan`s very existence. I see this in all forums in and about Pakistan.

b) Kashmir is THE ``core`` issue for Indo-Pak relations. Kashmir is, therefore, THE ``core`` emotive issue for Indian and Pakistani news media, especially in the Punjabi/Hindi/Urdu belt.

c) Kashmir is not THE ``core`` issue for India. Truly, Kashmir is not THE reason for India`s existence. I do not see Kashmir cropping up in all forums about India.

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The day Pakistanis understand this, will be the day India & Pakistan dialogue emerges from the dark cave its been in for the past few decades.

Now, next question - does it suit the benders of minds, the perception builders, to portray this? ````

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Yes, I read the article.

#17 by veeresh

Ya! Ya!! Ya!!! Circling the wagon?

Still don’t get it chump? ‘bout time you read the article again and again until it strikes you that this write up is NOT about what you think it is about.

Well! you do realize that your comments had nothing to do with the write up itself.
Have one on me.

hold on ppl..

this talk is all crap going on. any readjustment of boundaries is infinitely impossible! a decade ago, the military solution to kashmir, as pakistan used to put it, could have been done. not any more because of nuclearisation of the region.

so where does it leave us? well, we shall talk about talks for a long time. then we shall start talking and the talks shall break down. both countries will go back to previous positions. the cycle will start all over and over and over with new leaders emerging who will think they can perform miracles.

so keep watching the tamasha.

#16 by HP

[Why is India calling for solution of Kashmir if it is a status quo power?]

India isn`t the one that has called for talks. That distinction goes to Pakistan. And Pakistan has called for talks only because it has realized that there is no way it is going to get Kashmir by indulging in terrorism. Not just that, Pakistan has realized that in supporting the insurgency, it has radicalized its own population to the extent that Pakistanis are killing Pakistanis, a situation that is rather unpalatable for it. A consequence of this policy has been been the complete breakdown of law and order that has scared away potential investors. This in turn, has devastated Pakistan`s economy, forcing it to request for debt-waivers and loan write-offs. American pressure in no small measure has also pushed it towrds talks. From one the fastest growing economies in Asia in the 60s to bankruptcy in the 90s is a long way. That in short, has been the story of Pakistan`s failed policy of providing `moral and diplomatic` support to the Kashmiris. Now that its wall is to its back, Pakistan has no way out but to call for talks. India readily agreed, hoping that a resolution of the festering problem would remove yet another hurdle in its quest for great power status.

Same old muck gets repeated the umpteenth time on Chowk!!

The core issue is explicit- it is TNT!!

``Conservative Indian thought will also resent the film’s presentation of the disillusionment of the Kashmirs with Indian rule, as encapsulated through a candid interview with the wild-bearded Hizb commander Syed Salahuddin....``

LOL! I thought that ``PAkistani REporter`` from DD would provide a better story from the ordinary Kashmiris than interviewing a foaming Salahuddin!!

re:#16 by HP
A good and thought provoking post by you.
Those who say Kashmir is not the core issue for India are living in fool`s paradise. It is and as u rightly said, India is trying to behave like a status quo power without any conviction.
I am plain disappointed by this Hoodbhoy guy. He is a good physicist but since when did he become a political anaylist/commentator? What are his credentials. Sometimes ago, he severely castigated the Paki dictatorship (in a conference in USA, where the JKLF leader in exile Fai was in attendance).
Url:
http://www.internationalopinion.com/Pakistans_military_wont_allow_peace.htm

``The Pakistani scholar, professor of Physics at Pakistan’s Quaid-e-Azam University in Islamabad, was speaking at a Discussion Forum at the California Institute of Integral Studies, here, on August 22. Kashmiri American Council’s Executive Director Dr. Ghulam Nabi Fai, a notorious advocate of independent Kashmir, “Researcher on the Kashmir Conflict” Akhila Raman, Zulfiqar Ahmad, Advocate, Nautilus Institute for Security and Sustainable Development, and Dr. Angana Chatterji, a left-wing, “secular” professor at the CIIS, and frequent contributor to Pakistani newspapers, who organized and conducted the Discussion, also spoke.``

``The surprisingly candid admission by Prof. Hoodbhoy that cross border terrorism has not stopped in Kashmir and that jihadi Islamic groups supported by Pakistani military and intelligence are behind the militancy/terrorism in Jammu and Kashmir was the highlight of the evening.

Dr. Hoodbhoy did not mince words when he also agreed with the position that Pakistani military had not withdrawn from the occupied area of Jammu and Kashmir according to the United Nation’s resolution and that’s why India did not carry out promised plebiscite in the State. Pakistani has been harping on the plebiscite and accusing India of not living up to its promise to the international body. But Dr. Hoodbhoy’s clear admission that Pakistan had not fulfilled its part of the obligation left no doubt as to what is the truth.``

Now, the good professor is either trying to regain his lost reputation in Pak or he is being used by the military dictator.
Sridhar

``Conservative Indian thought will also resent the film’s presentation of the disillusionment of the Kashmirs with Indian rule, as encapsulated through a candid interview with the wild-bearded Hizb commander Syed Salahuddin``

Ha!! A bearded Mullah who sanctions brutalities in Indian kashmir, is leading Jihad against India and gets his bread by sucking up to his Paki military masters is the voice of Kashmir. Never mind that he lives in Muzaffarabad. Good show, pseudo-intellectuals!!

The freedom of Kashmir is just a matter of time. When time comes, all idols crumble to ground and all walls are razed.

HP:

You are either not understanfing the point or deliberately choosing to ignore it.

``It just does not get into your head that anytime you have an insurgency local or foreign inspired, it is a core issue for any country. Would India give up Kashmir because it is NOT a core issue? India’s sovereignty and authority in Kashmir is being challenged and we have some cretins telling us that it is NOT a core issue. The India govt may not say it but they know it is a core issue and that’s why they wanna talk to Pakistan and Kashmiris. ``


Has India ever said it is a problem not to be solved? It is a problem, an internal one. When we say it is not a core issue, what we mean is that it is not the only issue bedeviling Indian-Pakistani relations. Pakistan`s sense of selfe, its identity based on TNT and its implication on Kashmir is an issue. Territorial redistribution is not a core issue for us; though we have a formal claim on POK, we are not interested in changing the ground reality.

``ow a word about this Status quo crap. Why is India talking to Pakistan about Kashmir, if it is a status quo power? Why we have 700K odd Indian army in Kashmir, if India is a status quo power? Why is India calling for solution of Kashmir if it is a status quo power? ......... is a Status quo power then Pakistan is a fauking kick-ass power as it is making India talk disregarding this status quo ``

Rather crudely put but succint. What do you think Status Quo means? It means continuation of present facts on the ground. If you are talking about cross border terrorism, India is not a status quo power because we want Pakistani interference in India to end. We do not want Punjabi speaking members of Jehadi groups coming to India. However, if you are talking about the division of Kashmir we are a status quo power as we are not interested in pressing our claims to Pakistan Occupied Kashmir. We are fine with the ground reality.

And yes,Pakistan is a ``kick ass`` pwer because it has managed to bring India to the table at least thanks to Jehadis. Something it could not do for 30 plus years. But I would not pop the champagne as yet. Pakistan is attempting to be the revisionist power. It has not succeeded in gaining since 1948.

#24

The freedom of Kashmir is just a matter of time....

Interesting....this has not changed in 15 years.

In the meanwhile, Indian economy has registered amazing growth rates for the entire decade of the nineties and into the first decade of the 21st crntury. Our foreign exchange reserves have increased by more than a 100 fold since the Kashmir ``Problem`` started. The Indian armed forces have undergone enormous upgrades and moderenization. They have become so adept at exterminating the jihadi vermin, that the rest of the world comes to India to learn COIN warfare. So much so that now, western countries are seeking to become India`s friends instead the other way around.
I think the Kashmiris have already figured out where their interests lie. As is evident from the jihadi whining about the lack of support from the general populace and the improved intelligence the RR and the IA routinely get about thesse jihadis.
There is another thing that may not be immediately apparent to people here. Last time I visited Bangalore, I met a large group of students from Srinagar studying at a local Engineering College. I asked them how many of them were studying outside Kashmir. They told me that almost everyone who did well in hign school/pre-university prefered to study outside Kashmir and the south was a very popular destination. These were a group of happy kids having a great time and getting a good education too. I say the more this happens, the worse it will be for this jihad to continue

i wonder how many of u think Kashmir is solely an internal issue for india. if so why are they now thinking of negotiating it with pakistan. my take on this is that if india has to give up its military presence in the region or has to give up kashmir to pakistan or it is made a autonomous self governing state, other states in india might want self rule as well. we are all well aware of all the problems india faces internally (sic!) in some of thier other states desiring self rule.

[quote]
Conservative Indian thought will also resent the film’s presentation of the disillusionment of the Kashmirs with Indian rule, as encapsulated through a candid interview with the wild-bearded Hizb commander Syed Salahuddin.

[end-quote]

Heh, heh, sure, this is really convincing. Why stop at a murderous thug like Salahuddin as a representative ``freedom fighter``? Why not roll in the paki stooge Geelani (annual payment $100,000) from the valley as well? Indian analysts have estimated that peak funding of the Kashmir insurgency has exceeded $100 million is some years.

This money is now being used to openly murder kashmiris and especially destroy their culture. Here is some more freedom struggle:

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Kashmir-School-Burned.html

SRINAGAR, India (AP) -- Kashmir`s oldest school was burned down Monday, destroying one of the world`s oldest copies of the Quran and thousands of other rare Islamic texts, in a suspected arson attack that some blamed on Islamic militants targeting moderate Muslim leaders.

The destruction shocked many in the disputed Himalayan territory, with the loss of the 105-year-old Islamia Higher Secondary School -- where some of the region`s most prominent figures studied -- and of its 30,000-book library.

People came out into the streets in protest in Srinagar, the capital of India`s Jammu-Kashmir state, and shut down shops. Hundreds of the school`s students staged a protest march.

The school, set up in 1899, was a landmark symbol of the movement to modernize Islam -- the region`s first religious school to offer courses in English and the sciences. The brick and wood structure in the center of Srinigar also had architectural value with its high arched windows and ceilings of cedar logs.

On Monday, the building was reduced to the charred brick skeleton, with soot and burned-out book and furniture strewn around the premises.

The library, which included one of the rarest manuscripts of the Quran, handwritten by Usman bin Affan -- the third ``Righteous Caliph`` of Islam -- was completely destroyed, said Shahid-ul-Islam, party secretary of the Awami Action Committee.

No one claimed responsibility for Monday`s blaze, senior police officer Javed Ahmad said.

The school was run by a religious and educational trust led by Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, Kashmir`s highest Islamic leader and head of the Awami Action Committee, who has been targeted in recent months by suspected Islamic militants fighting for Kashmir`s independence from India or its merger with Pakistan since 1989.

Farooq is also a leader of the All Parties Hurriyat Conference, a political grouping that seeks independence from India but has used political methods instead of insurgency -- bringing accusations from militants that the movement is pro-India.

Farooq`s uncle was killed by unidentified attackers while praying in a mosque on May 29. Police blamed Islamic insurgents for the attack.

``Those who were behind my uncle`s killing are responsible for Monday`s arson. By doing this, these people want to weaken us and our institutions,`` Farooq told The Associated Press in Srinagar, the summer capital of India`s Jammu-Kashmir state.

Islamic guerrillas often target moderate Muslims, even ones that seek Kashmir`s independence from India through peaceful means. Two moderate Kashmiri separatist leaders, Mohammad Farooq and Abdul Ghani Lone, were killed last year by suspected rebels.

Farooq`s father, Mirwaiz Mohammed Farooq, was killed by suspected insurgents in his home in Srinager in 1990.

Moderate leaders started a dialogue with the Indian government in January and are scheduled to hold a third round of talks this month. Kashmir has been divided between India and Pakistan since 1949.

The school, with some 2,500 students, was closely identified with Farooq and his movement. It was first started under a trust set up by Farooq`s grand uncle, Mirwaiz Rasul Shah, and Farooq now heads the school`s trust, called the Anjuman-e-Nusrat-ul Islam, or Society for the Victory of Islam.

``The school was Kashmir`s first step toward modernity,`` said a tearful Ashraf Andrabi, a retired engineer and a former student. ``It has been the alma mater of everybody who has been anybody in Kashmir.``

Until 1989 -- when the separatist Islamic insurgency broke out -- the school employed teachers from Kashmir`s Hindu community. But they fled after attacks began on Hindus during the uprising.

The militants want Kashmir to be independent or merged into neighboring Muslim-majority Pakistan. The violence since 1989 has killed about 65,000 people, and is one of the main points of discord between nuclear-armed neighbors India and Pakistan.

PMishra:

Dude, the people who came out on the streets were probably protesting Indian rule only. Even when Lone was killed his son first blamed the ISI, which was probably the truth as Lone was an open moderate. But he later changed his tune and started blaming security forces.

Honestly, I wonder why we hold on to Kashmir valley. The damn territiry is more trouble then its worth. Let the valley go to Pakistan and we should kick out the Muslims from Jammu and Ladakh in retaliation of Hindus being kicked out of Punjab. I don`t buy this bull4hit theory that Kashmir cannot be divided and it is a struggle for ``Kashmiriyat``.

Hardly anyone speaks Kashmiri in POK but there is no insurgency there. Kashmiri is maintained in Indian Kashmir and yet people hate India even though India gave more autonomy. Also, it is a communal solution to a communal problem. If Punjab could be divided amongst religious lines in 1947 why the hell can`t we not divide Jammu and Kashmir.

As long as Pakistan considers Kashmir as a ``core issue`` and tries to push it on the rest of the world by using suicidal Jehadis I cannot see it coming out of the the current mess. Remember that apart from the world views of the Paki Generals who attempt wars like in Kargil, Kashmir gets figured in the worldly delusions of people like Salahuddin and OBL which gets linked to the unfinished business of TNT in the sub-continet and the begining of TNT on a world wide basis. In that sense Kashmir is central to the existence of Paki Jehadism because if it succeeds it would again be considered as a successful venture of Jehadism and TNT. (remember what Mush had to say about Kargil as achieving its objective). While the Jehadist would try imposing TNT on a world wide scale by blowing more Trade Towers and wiping out entire cities of the non-believers the Paki Generals would ensure that Kashmir would be cited by these Jehadis to the Ummah as another successful venture of TNT-ism .

Ballukhan:

But isn`t TNTism justified where two communities cannot live with each other?

I am a Punjabi and my family was uprooted from its ancestral homes. I am not claiming special victim status. Same thing happened to Muslims in east Punjab and UP, Bihar and Bengal. Contrast that with the deccan and below which has been relatively free of communal differences and the Pakistan movement never caught on. So why should the communal virus strain relations in another part of the country just because Hindus and Muslims cannot get along in another part?

Urstruly,

`71 ki maar bhool gaye kya? Looks like the crash course offered in Kargil also didn`t help cure your jaundiced vision.