Re-thinking Kashmir

Hmmmm . . . another article on Kashmir.

Let me try to, if I may, place the view from my perspective as an equally avid watcher?

a) Kashmir is a ``core`` issue for Pakistan. It becomes a reason for Pakistan`s very existence. I see this in all forums in and about Pakistan.

b) Kashmir is a ``core`` issue for Indo-Pak relations. Kashmir is, therefore, a ``core`` emotive issue for Indian and Pakistani news media, especially in the Punjabi/Hindi/Urdu belt.

c) Kashmir is not a ``core`` issue for India. Truly, Kashmir is not a reason for India`s existence. I do not see Kashmir cropping up in all forums about India.

+++

The day Pakistanis understand this, will be the day India & Pakistan dialogue emerges from the dark cave its been in for the past few decades.

Now, next question - does it suit the benders of minds, the perception builders, to portray this?

+++

Thank you.

From : Shoaib Zafar

Kashmir is not only the issue for the establishment of peace and existace of two countries but it is also a topic which has given a lot of benifits to the film industry of India and Pakistan. Some of the top hit movies of India are on the subject of Kashmir. (I don`t think India would like to lose this subject by solving the problem of Kashmir)

#1

That is always the case when one is a status quo power. India is content with what it has, hence no need to have it as a core issue. In fact India would not like it to be an issue at all.

What good would that do Pakistan?

The events in Kashmir in the past few months, where a score of people from occupation army are regularly being despatched to the Narkh by Kashmiri freedom fighters, indicate that the freedom struggle is and it always was indigenous. Now that Pakistan has a certificate of good behaviour from both Hindus and their papa amrika, all those who balmed poor mullah must realize the truth.

stuka #3

``That is alway the case....``

Not true. In the context of Indo-China, neither India nor China is the real status-quo power. Both are `revisionist` powers but neither has made that difference a core issue.

The world is full of such examples. We are dealing here with a very particular country with a very particular worldview.

Shoaibzafar

Post #2

Quote:

---

countries but it is also a topic which has given a lot of benifits to the film industry of India and Pakistan. Some of the top hit movies of India are on the subject of Kashmir. (I don`t think India would like to lose this subject by solving the problem of Kashmir)

---

That maybe true about Pakistan.

As to India, IIRC on an average around 700/800 movies are made/released in a year (around 150 are in hindi language rest are in other regional languages). Out of these, can one tell, how many are made on the subject of J&K? Leave alone the hit ones how many altogether in a year? And then, also inform how many have been made in the last 25 years..and/or even before that.

Point is, what is the basis of this assertion that movies made on the subject of J&K have given lot of benefits to Indian film industry, and because of that they would not like to see J&K imbroglio solved?

Why make a film on Kashmir? Why not make one on Taliban in Afghanistan or power relations in rural Pakistan or Balochistan/NWFP madrassas or women in jail for zina ?

Why is virtually every bit of activism is directed at India?

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Kashmir is not worth all this stupid expensive nuclear deadly enemity between Pakistan and for the last 56 years. there are thousands times more benefits in peace and harmony between essentially the same people on either side of the border -- than this mindless daily fratricide of the flowers of the Hindu Muslim Sikhs and Buddhist communities.

the following that are -- the NON STARTERS -- and items not in fashion today`s subcontinental politics:

-- Plebiscite
-- Separation of Muslim Valley from Hindu Jammu and Buddhist Ladakh
-- Division of Indian Kashmir on communal or any basis
-- Exchange of territory under any pretext
-- ``Islami Hukoomat`` in the Muslim Valley -- an impossible nightmare
-- Independence under any circumstances

so what remains is :

-- full autonomy for each section of Kashmir on either side of LOC governed by the Kshmiris themselves with -- Defense, Foreign affairs and Finance -- in the hands of India and Pakistan for their respective Kashmiri regions......
-- LOC not as an International border but as a Kashmiri Border manned by the Kashmiris
-- a secular democratic governance in BOTH Kashmirs with ironclad guaranteed rights of minorities -- as equals...

the Indians are ready .... to bury the Hatchet -- if only Musharraf is...

If Musharraf can bring his army and all the the leaders of the mainstream parties (that will be the day) and all the the fringe lunatic brigands -- together -- toward the consensus to solve the `core issue` of Kashmir......

.....then all his sins and criminalities will be forgiven by the history...and he will live immortalized in the history of the subcontinent as the GREAT UNITER not as -- the Great Divider -- which he is right now of his own country....

Pipe Dream?....

btw Beena -- a great write up...blessed are the peacemakers..

Ralph:

China is the status quo power. It would be wrong to say both are revisionist. China may have been revisionist about it in the early 50s but after changing the facts of the ground they are very much the status quo power. It is India that runs after China trying to get some progress in the border case.

Pakistan is a revisionist entity in Kashmir. Strategically their mistake has been to allow a high degree of emotional involvement of the people in the national stake. All the Pakistani establishment has done is paint itself into a corner about selling a settlement to its own people. If India does a status quo on China, politicians may yell and scream but the people won`t be involved beyond a feeling of relief.

#9

You really need to ask that question?

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rather than playing around the issue and blaming india for the unauthorized rule over kashmir or accusing pakistan of fighting a freedom struggle it has no right to deal with, its more important that we try and see what can be done to help save the lives of those being harmed by this conflict. so those of u who talk about social injustics in both countries whether its the zina and blasphemy laws in pakistan or the results of the purely hindu ideology of the BJP, shut up and give those who seek solutions a chance!

#1 by veeresh #8 by nikki7777

Did you even read the article before penning your valuable input?

It just does not get into your head that anytime you have an insurgency local or foreign inspired, it is a core issue for any country. Would India give up Kashmir because it is NOT a core issue? India’s sovereignty and authority in Kashmir is being challenged and we have some cretins telling us that it is NOT a core issue. The India govt may not say it but they know it is a core issue and that’s why they wanna talk to Pakistan and Kashmiris.

Now a word about this Status quo crap. Why is India talking to Pakistan about Kashmir, if it is a status quo power? Why we have 700K odd Indian army in Kashmir, if India is a status quo power? Why is India calling for solution of Kashmir if it is a status quo power? All India had to do is state its claim and say good bye and that would show that it is a status quo power but it is talking/negotiating for some results and that means some give and take. Come on! Scratch your head couple of times. If India is a Status quo power then Pakistan is a fauking kick-ass power as it is making India talk disregarding this status quo crap.

The documentary clearly has a purpose. The Pakistan army plays many games and I will be hard-pressed to believe that Hoodbhoy does not have connections in the right places. Is there anybody who believes that Hoodbhoy or his cronies would be allowed to make and release a documentary about Kashmir and support a new approach to Kashmir issue w/o some mighty support from higher ups in Pakistan?
The army in Pakistan would never allow anything about Kashmir that is not first cleared by the army. Hoodbhoy is not the type to say things that would irk the army and He ends up wearing the designer Shalwar in the Pindi Jail.
The documentary is being shown in Islamabad, Karachi and Lahore to the Pakistani elite which is already convinced that they need to resolve the Kashmir issue with India then why is Hoodbhoy preaching to the already converted? In fact, Islamabad is 80% federal govt so, now Pakistani foreign office learning about its Kashmir policy from Hoodbhoy? Give me a break.

Here is what I think, I may be wrong; I hope people would correct me.
The army in Pakistan needs to move away from the Kashmir crap now. It is taking up a new role for the US in the area and that new role would eliminate the need for Kashmir as its basic plank to justify its dominant position in Pakistan.
Recently Khalid Ahmed discussed the army and terrorism issue in TFT. He pointed out that the army is keeping the terrorist as it wants to hold on to its options in Kashmir. IMO, Pakistan’s reluctance to go after the terrorist does not come from its desire to have an option in Kashmir. It is keeping the terrorist, as w/o the terrorist somewhere on Pakistani soil, it would be a hard sell for the army to take up the role that the US thinks the Pakistan army should play in the central Asia and the Middle East. (Long term question- Would Pakistan be the new Israel in the Middle East?)
The US is practically begging the NATO countries to supply arms to Pakistan until it gets congressional approvals in the US. Now new arms supplies to the Pak army are a sensitive issue for India. There have to be some Ironclad guarantees for India to believe that those arms would not be used against India in future. If both Pakistan and India are still talking to each and it appears they are, then India already has those guarantees from the US and India would accept those guarantees if Pakistan gives up on Kashmir issue discreetly.
What other things are happening to support my view:
1. Pakistan is re-admitted to commonwealth with support from India.
2. Pakistan is again a favorite nation for EU countries.
3. Pakistan is now a non-Nato Ally of the US
4. Pakistan is admitted to Asean with India’s support and heavy lobbying from the US.
5. Pakistan promised that it will not raise issues w/India in Asean.
6. The US is getting ready to provide massive economic support to Pakistan.
7. The US is looking for ways to find more arms supplies for Pakistan.
8. Pakistan’s own internal set up is being readjusted for long term needs.

This documentary is a PR exercise to convince foreign legions and other interested groups to be ready for dropping of Kashmir issue somewhere along the lines. Who best to sell it- A perfectly acceptable scholar, who is known to have somewhat radical positions on Pakistan foreign Policy- Hoodbhoy.

re:#4 by Urstruly
The fencing on the LOC is nearing completion. After that, all this discussion on who should have control over the valley will, i think, be academic. LOC will become the defacto I.B. Chew on that, Mr Mullah.
Sridhar

HP/16, ok, I buy your point of view. So let me try to reword mine?

````Let me try to, if I may, place the view from my perspective as an equally avid watcher?

a) Kashmir is THE ``core`` issue for Pakistan. It becomes a reason for Pakistan`s very existence. I see this in all forums in and about Pakistan.

b) Kashmir is THE ``core`` issue for Indo-Pak relations. Kashmir is, therefore, THE ``core`` emotive issue for Indian and Pakistani news media, especially in the Punjabi/Hindi/Urdu belt.

c) Kashmir is not THE ``core`` issue for India. Truly, Kashmir is not THE reason for India`s existence. I do not see Kashmir cropping up in all forums about India.

+++

The day Pakistanis understand this, will be the day India & Pakistan dialogue emerges from the dark cave its been in for the past few decades.

Now, next question - does it suit the benders of minds, the perception builders, to portray this? ````

+++

Yes, I read the article.

#17 by veeresh

Ya! Ya!! Ya!!! Circling the wagon?

Still don’t get it chump? ‘bout time you read the article again and again until it strikes you that this write up is NOT about what you think it is about.

Well! you do realize that your comments had nothing to do with the write up itself.
Have one on me.

hold on ppl..

this talk is all crap going on. any readjustment of boundaries is infinitely impossible! a decade ago, the military solution to kashmir, as pakistan used to put it, could have been done. not any more because of nuclearisation of the region.

so where does it leave us? well, we shall talk about talks for a long time. then we shall start talking and the talks shall break down. both countries will go back to previous positions. the cycle will start all over and over and over with new leaders emerging who will think they can perform miracles.

so keep watching the tamasha.

#16 by HP

[Why is India calling for solution of Kashmir if it is a status quo power?]

India isn`t the one that has called for talks. That distinction goes to Pakistan. And Pakistan has called for talks only because it has realized that there is no way it is going to get Kashmir by indulging in terrorism. Not just that, Pakistan has realized that in supporting the insurgency, it has radicalized its own population to the extent that Pakistanis are killing Pakistanis, a situation that is rather unpalatable for it. A consequence of this policy has been been the complete breakdown of law and order that has scared away potential investors. This in turn, has devastated Pakistan`s economy, forcing it to request for debt-waivers and loan write-offs. American pressure in no small measure has also pushed it towrds talks. From one the fastest growing economies in Asia in the 60s to bankruptcy in the 90s is a long way. That in short, has been the story of Pakistan`s failed policy of providing `moral and diplomatic` support to the Kashmiris. Now that its wall is to its back, Pakistan has no way out but to call for talks. India readily agreed, hoping that a resolution of the festering problem would remove yet another hurdle in its quest for great power status.

Same old muck gets repeated the umpteenth time on Chowk!!

The core issue is explicit- it is TNT!!

``Conservative Indian thought will also resent the film’s presentation of the disillusionment of the Kashmirs with Indian rule, as encapsulated through a candid interview with the wild-bearded Hizb commander Syed Salahuddin....``

LOL! I thought that ``PAkistani REporter`` from DD would provide a better story from the ordinary Kashmiris than interviewing a foaming Salahuddin!!

re:#16 by HP
A good and thought provoking post by you.
Those who say Kashmir is not the core issue for India are living in fool`s paradise. It is and as u rightly said, India is trying to behave like a status quo power without any conviction.
I am plain disappointed by this Hoodbhoy guy. He is a good physicist but since when did he become a political anaylist/commentator? What are his credentials. Sometimes ago, he severely castigated the Paki dictatorship (in a conference in USA, where the JKLF leader in exile Fai was in attendance).
Url:
http://www.internationalopinion.com/Pakistans_military_wont_allow_peace.htm

``The Pakistani scholar, professor of Physics at Pakistan’s Quaid-e-Azam University in Islamabad, was speaking at a Discussion Forum at the California Institute of Integral Studies, here, on August 22. Kashmiri American Council’s Executive Director Dr. Ghulam Nabi Fai, a notorious advocate of independent Kashmir, “Researcher on the Kashmir Conflict” Akhila Raman, Zulfiqar Ahmad, Advocate, Nautilus Institute for Security and Sustainable Development, and Dr. Angana Chatterji, a left-wing, “secular” professor at the CIIS, and frequent contributor to Pakistani newspapers, who organized and conducted the Discussion, also spoke.``

``The surprisingly candid admission by Prof. Hoodbhoy that cross border terrorism has not stopped in Kashmir and that jihadi Islamic groups supported by Pakistani military and intelligence are behind the militancy/terrorism in Jammu and Kashmir was the highlight of the evening.

Dr. Hoodbhoy did not mince words when he also agreed with the position that Pakistani military had not withdrawn from the occupied area of Jammu and Kashmir according to the United Nation’s resolution and that’s why India did not carry out promised plebiscite in the State. Pakistani has been harping on the plebiscite and accusing India of not living up to its promise to the international body. But Dr. Hoodbhoy’s clear admission that Pakistan had not fulfilled its part of the obligation left no doubt as to what is the truth.``

Now, the good professor is either trying to regain his lost reputation in Pak or he is being used by the military dictator.
Sridhar

``Conservative Indian thought will also resent the film’s presentation of the disillusionment of the Kashmirs with Indian rule, as encapsulated through a candid interview with the wild-bearded Hizb commander Syed Salahuddin``

Ha!! A bearded Mullah who sanctions brutalities in Indian kashmir, is leading Jihad against India and gets his bread by sucking up to his Paki military masters is the voice of Kashmir. Never mind that he lives in Muzaffarabad. Good show, pseudo-intellectuals!!

The freedom of Kashmir is just a matter of time. When time comes, all idols crumble to ground and all walls are razed.

HP:

You are either not understanfing the point or deliberately choosing to ignore it.

``It just does not get into your head that anytime you have an insurgency local or foreign inspired, it is a core issue for any country. Would India give up Kashmir because it is NOT a core issue? India’s sovereignty and authority in Kashmir is being challenged and we have some cretins telling us that it is NOT a core issue. The India govt may not say it but they know it is a core issue and that’s why they wanna talk to Pakistan and Kashmiris. ``


Has India ever said it is a problem not to be solved? It is a problem, an internal one. When we say it is not a core issue, what we mean is that it is not the only issue bedeviling Indian-Pakistani relations. Pakistan`s sense of selfe, its identity based on TNT and its implication on Kashmir is an issue. Territorial redistribution is not a core issue for us; though we have a formal claim on POK, we are not interested in changing the ground reality.

``ow a word about this Status quo crap. Why is India talking to Pakistan about Kashmir, if it is a status quo power? Why we have 700K odd Indian army in Kashmir, if India is a status quo power? Why is India calling for solution of Kashmir if it is a status quo power? ......... is a Status quo power then Pakistan is a fauking kick-ass power as it is making India talk disregarding this status quo ``

Rather crudely put but succint. What do you think Status Quo means? It means continuation of present facts on the ground. If you are talking about cross border terrorism, India is not a status quo power because we want Pakistani interference in India to end. We do not want Punjabi speaking members of Jehadi groups coming to India. However, if you are talking about the division of Kashmir we are a status quo power as we are not interested in pressing our claims to Pakistan Occupied Kashmir. We are fine with the ground reality.

And yes,Pakistan is a ``kick ass`` pwer because it has managed to bring India to the table at least thanks to Jehadis. Something it could not do for 30 plus years. But I would not pop the champagne as yet. Pakistan is attempting to be the revisionist power. It has not succeeded in gaining since 1948.

#24

The freedom of Kashmir is just a matter of time....

Interesting....this has not changed in 15 years.

In the meanwhile, Indian economy has registered amazing growth rates for the entire decade of the nineties and into the first decade of the 21st crntury. Our foreign exchange reserves have increased by more than a 100 fold since the Kashmir ``Problem`` started. The Indian armed forces have undergone enormous upgrades and moderenization. They have become so adept at exterminating the jihadi vermin, that the rest of the world comes to India to learn COIN warfare. So much so that now, western countries are seeking to become India`s friends instead the other way around.
I think the Kashmiris have already figured out where their interests lie. As is evident from the jihadi whining about the lack of support from the general populace and the improved intelligence the RR and the IA routinely get about thesse jihadis.
There is another thing that may not be immediately apparent to people here. Last time I visited Bangalore, I met a large group of students from Srinagar studying at a local Engineering College. I asked them how many of them were studying outside Kashmir. They told me that almost everyone who did well in hign school/pre-university prefered to study outside Kashmir and the south was a very popular destination. These were a group of happy kids having a great time and getting a good education too. I say the more this happens, the worse it will be for this jihad to continue

i wonder how many of u think Kashmir is solely an internal issue for india. if so why are they now thinking of negotiating it with pakistan. my take on this is that if india has to give up its military presence in the region or has to give up kashmir to pakistan or it is made a autonomous self governing state, other states in india might want self rule as well. we are all well aware of all the problems india faces internally (sic!) in some of thier other states desiring self rule.

[quote]
Conservative Indian thought will also resent the film’s presentation of the disillusionment of the Kashmirs with Indian rule, as encapsulated through a candid interview with the wild-bearded Hizb commander Syed Salahuddin.

[end-quote]

Heh, heh, sure, this is really convincing. Why stop at a murderous thug like Salahuddin as a representative ``freedom fighter``? Why not roll in the paki stooge Geelani (annual payment $100,000) from the valley as well? Indian analysts have estimated that peak funding of the Kashmir insurgency has exceeded $100 million is some years.

This money is now being used to openly murder kashmiris and especially destroy their culture. Here is some more freedom struggle:

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Kashmir-School-Burned.html

SRINAGAR, India (AP) -- Kashmir`s oldest school was burned down Monday, destroying one of the world`s oldest copies of the Quran and thousands of other rare Islamic texts, in a suspected arson attack that some blamed on Islamic militants targeting moderate Muslim leaders.

The destruction shocked many in the disputed Himalayan territory, with the loss of the 105-year-old Islamia Higher Secondary School -- where some of the region`s most prominent figures studied -- and of its 30,000-book library.

People came out into the streets in protest in Srinagar, the capital of India`s Jammu-Kashmir state, and shut down shops. Hundreds of the school`s students staged a protest march.

The school, set up in 1899, was a landmark symbol of the movement to modernize Islam -- the region`s first religious school to offer courses in English and the sciences. The brick and wood structure in the center of Srinigar also had architectural value with its high arched windows and ceilings of cedar logs.

On Monday, the building was reduced to the charred brick skeleton, with soot and burned-out book and furniture strewn around the premises.

The library, which included one of the rarest manuscripts of the Quran, handwritten by Usman bin Affan -- the third ``Righteous Caliph`` of Islam -- was completely destroyed, said Shahid-ul-Islam, party secretary of the Awami Action Committee.

No one claimed responsibility for Monday`s blaze, senior police officer Javed Ahmad said.

The school was run by a religious and educational trust led by Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, Kashmir`s highest Islamic leader and head of the Awami Action Committee, who has been targeted in recent months by suspected Islamic militants fighting for Kashmir`s independence from India or its merger with Pakistan since 1989.

Farooq is also a leader of the All Parties Hurriyat Conference, a political grouping that seeks independence from India but has used political methods instead of insurgency -- bringing accusations from militants that the movement is pro-India.

Farooq`s uncle was killed by unidentified attackers while praying in a mosque on May 29. Police blamed Islamic insurgents for the attack.

``Those who were behind my uncle`s killing are responsible for Monday`s arson. By doing this, these people want to weaken us and our institutions,`` Farooq told The Associated Press in Srinagar, the summer capital of India`s Jammu-Kashmir state.

Islamic guerrillas often target moderate Muslims, even ones that seek Kashmir`s independence from India through peaceful means. Two moderate Kashmiri separatist leaders, Mohammad Farooq and Abdul Ghani Lone, were killed last year by suspected rebels.

Farooq`s father, Mirwaiz Mohammed Farooq, was killed by suspected insurgents in his home in Srinager in 1990.

Moderate leaders started a dialogue with the Indian government in January and are scheduled to hold a third round of talks this month. Kashmir has been divided between India and Pakistan since 1949.

The school, with some 2,500 students, was closely identified with Farooq and his movement. It was first started under a trust set up by Farooq`s grand uncle, Mirwaiz Rasul Shah, and Farooq now heads the school`s trust, called the Anjuman-e-Nusrat-ul Islam, or Society for the Victory of Islam.

``The school was Kashmir`s first step toward modernity,`` said a tearful Ashraf Andrabi, a retired engineer and a former student. ``It has been the alma mater of everybody who has been anybody in Kashmir.``

Until 1989 -- when the separatist Islamic insurgency broke out -- the school employed teachers from Kashmir`s Hindu community. But they fled after attacks began on Hindus during the uprising.

The militants want Kashmir to be independent or merged into neighboring Muslim-majority Pakistan. The violence since 1989 has killed about 65,000 people, and is one of the main points of discord between nuclear-armed neighbors India and Pakistan.

PMishra:

Dude, the people who came out on the streets were probably protesting Indian rule only. Even when Lone was killed his son first blamed the ISI, which was probably the truth as Lone was an open moderate. But he later changed his tune and started blaming security forces.

Honestly, I wonder why we hold on to Kashmir valley. The damn territiry is more trouble then its worth. Let the valley go to Pakistan and we should kick out the Muslims from Jammu and Ladakh in retaliation of Hindus being kicked out of Punjab. I don`t buy this bull4hit theory that Kashmir cannot be divided and it is a struggle for ``Kashmiriyat``.

Hardly anyone speaks Kashmiri in POK but there is no insurgency there. Kashmiri is maintained in Indian Kashmir and yet people hate India even though India gave more autonomy. Also, it is a communal solution to a communal problem. If Punjab could be divided amongst religious lines in 1947 why the hell can`t we not divide Jammu and Kashmir.

As long as Pakistan considers Kashmir as a ``core issue`` and tries to push it on the rest of the world by using suicidal Jehadis I cannot see it coming out of the the current mess. Remember that apart from the world views of the Paki Generals who attempt wars like in Kargil, Kashmir gets figured in the worldly delusions of people like Salahuddin and OBL which gets linked to the unfinished business of TNT in the sub-continet and the begining of TNT on a world wide basis. In that sense Kashmir is central to the existence of Paki Jehadism because if it succeeds it would again be considered as a successful venture of Jehadism and TNT. (remember what Mush had to say about Kargil as achieving its objective). While the Jehadist would try imposing TNT on a world wide scale by blowing more Trade Towers and wiping out entire cities of the non-believers the Paki Generals would ensure that Kashmir would be cited by these Jehadis to the Ummah as another successful venture of TNT-ism .

Ballukhan:

But isn`t TNTism justified where two communities cannot live with each other?

I am a Punjabi and my family was uprooted from its ancestral homes. I am not claiming special victim status. Same thing happened to Muslims in east Punjab and UP, Bihar and Bengal. Contrast that with the deccan and below which has been relatively free of communal differences and the Pakistan movement never caught on. So why should the communal virus strain relations in another part of the country just because Hindus and Muslims cannot get along in another part?

Urstruly,

`71 ki maar bhool gaye kya? Looks like the crash course offered in Kargil also didn`t help cure your jaundiced vision.

Urstruly #24: ``The freedom of Kashmir is just a matter of time. When time comes, all idols crumble to ground and all walls are razed.``

Urstruly saab, could you please define how much time? Is it eternity? Your army masters have been saying this for a long time.

Ref Urstruly #24

[The freedom of Kashmir is just a matter of time. When time comes, all idols crumble to ground and all walls are razed.]

Actually, before idols crumble I think the Koran will go up in flames. In fact, an ancient copy did just that yesterday in Srinagar!

#25 by stuka

I will get back to you some other time. There is not point in adding more dimensions to this feeding frenzy and Natak.

stuka:
``But isn`t TNTism justified where two communities cannot live with each other?``

The TNT was not espoused by the panjabis who had no problem living with each other. Yes, Iqbal was a panjabi but he had to go to Allahabad to present his theory.

``Let the valley go to Pakistan and we should kick out the Muslims from Jammu and Ladakh in retaliation of Hindus being kicked out of Punjab``

Kuj soch samajh ke gal karo!...what about the constitutional/human rights of Jammu muslims? And if you are counting on the mob law to accomplish the ``kicking out``, how will you stop the mob violence from spreading to the rest of India?

HP:

No problem


Dost Mitter:

TNT was expressed very well by Punjabis on both sides. More so then any part of India.

I a talking about an actual transfer of populations encouraged by the security forces. It did happen in Palestine in 1948 and in Bosnia as well. The human rights of the Jammu/ Ladakh Muslims can be looked after by Pakistan once they reach there.

Indian Muslims outside Kashmir have never had a stake in Kashmir. It is unfair to hold them liable for what happens in Kashmir. I am talking about a communal transfer of territory and populations in accordance with the demographic mix of J&K.

Kashmir is central and ``core`` on the agenda of the Jehadists who consider this to be a milestone in the overall plan towards the grand polarization of the the world into believers and non-believers. Considering Kashmir as even an issue requiring discussion with Pakistan because the suicide attacks have increased is to concede the right of the Jehadi Masters to negotiate on account of their ability to indulge in perversities.
Kashmir will keep on figuring in the news items for the jehadi violence- and you would keep on wondering why it is happening just as you wondered why 9/11 happened in the first place. By aiding the TNTist and even contempolating upon the possibility of a partition of Kashmir you would be abetting them in their grand fascist plan.

I think Veeresh (#1) said it best and everyone else is just more or saying the same thing in different ways (and accents)

Kashmir means nothing to India, other than being a rather cold place people used to honeymoon a lot in. But the thought of losing Kashmir (what you Pakis deride as the ``atoot ang`` theory) is pretty muc inconceivable, at least for this generation and probably the next. Which is why a lot of Indians are resigned to the fact that this is one problem which is not going to be resolved in our lifetimes. So we just chill and ignore it. As long as there are soldiers willing to go in there and take the heat for the rest of us, we`re happy leading our mundane little lives and making the right patriotic noises every time soneone says ``freedom fighter`` and ``Kashmir`` in the same breath.

One thing has always puzzled me- and Been`a article doesn`t help much here- why would any sensible bunch of people want to join a country as warped as Pakistan when you have a nice alternative like India? Maybe they should have that damned plebiscite huh?

#29 Stuka

Transfer of population along sectarian lines will solve the Kashmir issue? I guess it ``solved`` the problem so well in the rest of india. NOT !

Sorry, I have to disagree. As for students disagreeing with the goverment and throwing rocks in the streets, I saw that happen every week in Calcutta in the 70s. I don`t recall anyone suggesting that certain neighborhoods in Calcutta should be given independence.

The Kashmiris are due a certain amount of symbolic autonomy (in addition to the cultural and social rights they already enjoy) as are the Nagas. Once the violence is more manageable. and economic and educational integration with rest of India is more complete, we should go ahead and just do that. And until then, we have a large population and certain number are happy to serve in the police and military.

Ref stuka #29

[Let the valley go to Pakistan...]

After we nuke Srinagar. And Muzaffarpur.

#31 by stuka on July 5, 2004 8:23pm PT
Kashmir may be irrelevant to your dialy existence economically or otherwise- it becomes ``core issue`` for those who oppose TNT and Jehadism. In that sense the struggle is more at an ideological level- that is why I said that it is another stepping stone for the success of further Jehadism in the sub-continent and hence would be opposed at all costs.

Waisey, I think it is good for Pervez Hoodbhoy to make such a film. To his credit, he does dare to break out of his country`s view on Kashmir. I don`t think someone in Iindia could do that without inviting a major popular or political backlash.

stuka:
``Indian Muslims outside Kashmir have never had a stake in Kashmir. It is unfair to hold them liable for what happens in Kashmir.``

...and because it will be unfair (I agree!), it won`t happen! I thought that you were a realistic guy!
And are you saying that it will be alright for the mob violence to kick out the muslims from Jammu and Ladakh, whether they want it or not? How else will you achieve population transfer?

#39

Thank you. You make good points, more importantly for the right reasons.

stuka #various
So in this communal solution, are we going to kick out Kashmiri Muslims from other parts of India too? Or is it going to be like `you take the land and kick out the Hindus, we are secular so we keep the Hindus and also the Muslims, yet again`.

The Pakistan modus operandi is getting so standard - first drive out Hindus, then kill a lot of people, then declare a Islamic state, no loss because enough people are left behind for you to work for the NEXT Islamic state. Good modus operandi, succeeded for Pakistan, succeeded for Bangladesh, now you are suggesting we make it work for J&K. What is the next success story - NEastern districts where Muslim Bangladeshis have settled?

It is much better to force these Islamic states to live in peace.

And if we have to fight them perpetually, then might as well keep fighting in J&K itself without conceding ground. Agreeing to yet another communal solution will not end the conflict, any more than conceding Pakistan ended it. The only thing which will happen by conceding yet another communal solution is that the location of the war would shift to Jammu or Ladakh or Gurdaspur or somewhere in the NE.

Sadna:

`you take the land and kick out the Hindus, we are secular so we keep the Hindus and also the Muslims, yet again`.

That is the one solution that is not acceptable at all.

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btw, addressing your earlier point
stuka #11
Why do Hoodbhoy and co not make any films on any of these?

Firearms proliferation in Karachi, bustard hunting by Arabs, preaching of extremism in mosques, state of information technology/out-sourcing, mountain tourism, drug trafficking along the Khyber pass, the state of music, drama and cinema, Edhi foundation activities, military land ownership, military`s business empires, world heritage monuments, Pakistan-based terrorists killing voters and sabotaging elections in both J&K and Afghanistan?

Simply existing in a Muslim majority Islamic state is the sole human right of Muslims - this appears to be the Pakistani state and society`s consensus definition of `human rights`.

Which is that famous play in which a corpse in an adjacent room begins to grow bigger and bigger, filling up the living space of the waiting protagonists, threatening to squeeze them out - a couple who are doing nothing but waiting for someone to arrive. Waiting for Godot? That describes Pakistanis Waiting for Kashmir.

stuka #47
Kashmiri Muslims live all over India, not only in normal course but also as refugees from the situation in J&K. For example, even near my hometown in the south, there is a mosque right on the beach nearby, which hosts a `Baramulla traders`, apart from the row of other handicrafts shops nearby.

For humanitarian and practical reasons, India will always have a number of Kashmiri Muslims who would have full Indian citizenship rights and right to live in India`s portion of J&K. Jammu and Ladakh would always have Muslims, in other words. That situation would correspond to ``you take the land and kick out the Hindus, we are secular so we keep the Hindus and also the Muslims, yet again``

The point is that an incomplete communal solution is useless, a complete communal solution is impossible.

sadna:
Why do we have to equate Kashmir with the rest of India? There have been agreements, promises, covenants made in kashmir which were not made elsewhere. I actually support stuka`s proposal sans the population transfer. My caveat is that it should be done through negotiations and not through a plebscite, so that any negative repercussions fall on the negotiating politicians and not on indian muslims. I would simply suggest the following:
For a period of ten years the valley should be given maximum autonomy and end of all subsidies. If they want to go after that, let them as long as they are prepared to pay full compensation for all non-muslims forced to flee the valley and provide an access corridor through the valley to ladakh and amarnath.

Re: sadna # 49

Kashmir problem a drug that the Pakistani establishment has Pakistani’s high on. It makes them hallucinate and prevents them from seeing what’s obvious to the rest of the world. They have to get off this drug to think about the things you are talking about.

Regards,


Faruk

dost-mittar #51
There will always be Kashmiri Muslims in the Indian portion of J& Kashmir, whatever India does, whether a slow process or fast process. Since there will always be Kashmiri Muslims living in Indian J&Kashmir, the communal solution will apply only to the Valley and not to any other part of Kashmir, just like happened at Partition. What good will it do India?

And if Kashmiri Muslims will always live in Indian J& Kashmir, what is the rationale of giving up on any part of it? If Kashmiri Muslims will always live in Indian J&K, why should the Valley Muslims be given a foot in Indian Kashmir after getting their own state - what does India get out if it except yet another revisionist jihadic state on its borders ?

And who is going to enforce the payments of compensation to nonMuslims and who will keep the peace - a US-led international army? Does India really want other countries to set up military base in its strategic locations?

We can finesse it all we want and hide the reality under euphenisms, the basic reality remains obvious - drive out the Hindus and Sikhs, kill a lot of people, declare an Islamic state then look to expand your Islamic frontiers - this is the accepted standard procedure on the subcontinent. We need to take a stand and fight it today, because we have to fight it tomorrow as well and in all the coming years as well.

To resolve the Kashmir issue, as far as my point of view is concerned as a general Pakistani observing this violating situation for decades, Pakistani government needs to look into the issue seriously and wisely.
As for India, Kashmir isnt the only state they are running with the help of military or power, there are tumults and uproars in other bigger states too, but they are facing the situations, resolving them within a system and with a united and agreed manner.
Whereas Pakistan, kinda have been facing and still facing same kinda of situation (e.g. PUNAM) but in such poor manner. We should realize that there is nothing lying in kashmir for us any more if after more than fifty five years we couldnt get anything by war or dialogue or resolutions. Even UN resolutions arent in favour if someone has read them.
There is a lot to discuss, but in short, we need to be in good terms with our neighbour country, we need to be in harmony and peace in order to face the hardships in terms of trade, poverty, cooperation and most of all the debts and to be on war at borders all the time. We need to take rest now and need to see from where we can start a better future.

Re: stuka # 29, dost-mittar # 51

I think your idea is flawed. What would autonomy / handover achieve? Make the goons in charge! They would implement their laws and no one can question them. This is exactly what the goons want their fiefdom.

Stuka you mentioned that Indians are happy with status-quo. I think the ground realities have changed since you left India. A new more confident and somewhat jingoistic India has emerged quite unwilling to compromise. Indians are eager to find a solution to the Kashmir problem but on our terms. This is a sentiment I have noticed through out my travels through the length and breath of this country.


Regards,

Faruk

dost-mittar #51
There will always be Kashmiri Muslims in the Indian portion of J& Kashmir, whatever India does, whether a slow process or fast process. Since there will always be Kashmiri Muslims living in Indian J&Kashmir, the communal solution will apply only to the Valley and not to any other part of Kashmir, just like happened at Partition. What good will it do India?

And if Kashmiri Muslims will always live in Indian J& Kashmir, what is the rationale of giving up on any part of it? If Kashmiri Muslims will always live in the valley, why should the Valley Muslims be given a foot in Indian Kashmir after getting their own state - what does India get out if it except yet another revisionist jihadic state on its borders ?

And who is going to enforce the payments of compensation to nonMuslims and who will keep the peace - a US-led international army? Does India really want other countries to set up military base in its strategic locations?

We can finesse it all we want and hide the reality under euphenisms, the basic reality remains obvious - drive out the Hindus and Sikhs, kill a lot of people, declare an Islamic state then look to expand your Islamic frontiers - this is the accepted standard procedure on the subcontinent. We need to take a stand and fight it today, because we have to fight it tomorrow as well and in all the coming years as well.

dividing kashmir along the lines of religion will be disastrous. the only muslim majority state of india, kashmir, has seen a mass ethnic cleansing of kashmiri pandits from the valley. militants specifically target hindu religious festivals like amarnath yatra and holy shrines like vaishno devi are on their hit list. i think those who are trying to go around the basic communal nature of violence in the valley are doing just for being politically correct.

the indian state should not yeild to this kind of fanatical ideology. it will not only be a defeat for the secularism that we stand for, it will send a message that the hindus and muslims cannot live with each other. so what are we going to do with muslims in UP,Bihar etc.. will a ``popular movement`` in UP which drives out the muslims from there to the valley be aceptable to people who are advocating the division?

OK that play about the growing corpse was not Waiting for Godot, it was Ionesco`s Amedee. A better description of it :

``A middle-aged husband and wife are shown in a situation which is clearly not taken from real life. They have not left their flat for years. The wife earns her living by operating some sort of telephone switchboard; the husband is writing a play, but has never got beyond the first few lines. In the bedroom is a corpse. It has been there for many years. It may be the corpse of the wife`s lover whom the husband killed when he found them together, but this is by no means certain; it may also have been a burglar, or a stray visitor. But the oddest thing about it is that it keeps growing larger and larger; it is suffering from `geometric progression, the incurable disease of the dead`. And in the course of the play it grows so large that eventually an enormous foot bursts from the bedroom into the living-room, threatening to drive Amédée and his wife out of their home. All this is wildly fantastic, yet it is not altogether unfamiliar, for it is not unlike situations most of us have experienced at one time or another in dreams and nightmares.``

It is time for hindus to RE-THINK kashmir. Sooner or later you will have to cough it up. Sooner the better.

sadna:
I favour stuka`s solution not to apease Pakistan but because I think it is good for India. What good is keeping the valley which is already almost 100% muslims if they dont want to be in India? As for ``drive out the Hindus and Sikhs, kill a lot of people,`` this has aleady happened and our govt. was unable to stop it.

``why should the Valley Muslims be given a foot in Indian Kashmir after getting their own state - what does India get out if it except yet another revisionist jihadic state on its borders ?``

..because right or wrong, we have a secular state in India. Maybe it was a mistake India made in 1947 and they should have done the same to muslims what was done to hindus and sikhs in Pakistan, but we made a choice then and have to live with it. As for creating another `revisionist jihadic state on its border`, if this happens, this state will require less subsidies and fewer troops than are needed to keep it as a more or less ``occupied territory``.

``And who is going to enforce the payments of compensation to nonMuslims and who will keep the peace - a US-led international army?``

the territory should be ceded only after the compensation has been received. And is the US army keeping peace on the international border now? if not now, why then?

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Faruk:

``I think your idea is flawed. What would autonomy / handover achieve? Make the goons in charge! They would implement their laws and no one can question them. This is exactly what the goons want their fiefdom.``

But at least it would not be our problem.

By status quo I meant that Indians do not have a desire to either fight for POK or give up Kashmir. I think that is in line with current thinking even now. Can you extrapolate your point?

#59

Dude, it is sentiments like these that make me hawkish. Jai tussi lad kai lai sakdey ho to lai lo. We are also not playing fricking marbles.

#59

Dude, it is sentiments like these that make me hawkish. Jai tussi lad kai lai sakdey ho to lai lo. We are also not playing fricking marbles.

dost-mittar #60
``.because right or wrong, we have a secular state in India. Maybe it was a mistake India made in 1947 and they should have done the same to muslims what was done to hindus and sikhs in Pakistan, but we made a choice then and have to live with it. ``.``

Precisely. A secular state can not be sustained if it keeps revising itself to concede Muslim homelands, itself becoming a defacto Hindu homeland for cleansed populations. If Pakistan and Bangladesh had ever been willing to repatriate Hindus and Sikhs and given them equal rights, then finding a J&K solution would have been easy. Here we have even Valley Muslims refusing to repatriate Valley Hindus.


``As for creating another `revisionist jihadic state on its border`, if this happens, this state will require less subsidies and fewer troops than are needed to keep it as a more or less ``occupied territory.``

IMO, it is wishful thinking that conflict levels will come down. There is enough rhetoric and enough uncontrollable factionalism among Kashmiris and Pakistanis to sustain the conflict at the same level despite any solution as you and stuka suggest - there are enough factions which would consider any solution like `hand the valley over` to be merely interim.

The Kashmir polity is badly split and pulling in different directions, a lot like Afghan warlords with Geelani the Pakistani proxy fundo Kashmiri like Gulbuddin Hekmatyar was their proxy fundo Afghan. Gulbuddin Hekmatyar with all his extremeness, US weapons and Pakistan`s backing could not impose a solution on Afghanistan. He got full support to eliminate his rivals for power, much like Geelani`s rivals have been killed one by one. Najibullah was brutally murdered and his body hung in the open for a week for the sin of being a Soviet collaborator. What do you think will happen to the Abdullah or Mufti Sayeed family or the remaining members of political parties, which are already getting murdered one by one?

Some one is needed to impose the peace in any secceded portion of J&K to prevent it from slipping into armed chaos, if you are saying it is the Pakistani Army, then why say you are not appeasing Pakistan - because that is precisely what they have been demanding.

You are also assuming that the geography of the place is such that after withdrawing from some parts, it makes it easier for Indian Army to defend the territory it retains - while if I am not mistaken, the geography is such that India`s defence of its remaining territory becomes even more intractable.

dostji, we will never agree on this. I will therefore cease and desist. One thing is that in the unlikely scenario that India ever concedes a communal solution(any surrender of sovereignty will essentially be a communal solution), as I have said before, I will then stand behind any campaign for declaring India a Hindu rashtra.

The reason is that declaring India a Hindu rashtra will then be the last remaining chance to remove this dangerous and prolonged ambiguity of India being a defacto Hindu homeland and dejure secular state, a dangerous ambiguity which has made Indian Muslims sitting ducks since independence. This ambiguity will only increase after a communal solution in J&K, putting Indian Muslims at greater risk. The ambiguity must be ended for the sake of their physical safety, and IMO, if they are unhappier but physically safer in a dejure Hindu rashtra, so be it.

On Kashmir: The very mention of Kashmir should be completely erased from the text books in Pakistan. Period! This step ought to be taken regardless of the route adopted to resolve the hovering issues of Kashmir. It`s a terrible and horrible topic to teach students at any level. The poor student does not learn anything from the ongoing and upcoming ``bukwas``. They can certainly consult the newspaper for the current developments in the region, provided they find the newspaper(s) worth reading.

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Its supplement to ZahraJ`s ... not only Kashmir issue but everybody knows that how the government/education system tries to make fool out of everybody, oh common people look at the world around, in fact we act like ``KunweN ke maindak`` ...

Sadna
``..The reason is that declaring India a Hindu rashtra will then be the last remaining chance to remove this dangerous and prolonged ambiguity of India being a defacto Hindu homeland and dejure secular state, a dangerous ambiguity which has made Indian Muslims sitting ducks since independence. This ambiguity will only increase after a communal solution in J&K, putting Indian Muslims at greater risk..``

Yes, Sadna you are right, the IM also consider their future interwined with the issue of resolution of the Kashmir not on the basis of communal question and TNT but on cultural uniqueness of the region such as its `kashmiriyat`. So redrawing of the international borders is impossible- so is the `exchange` of populations. You are right in stating that IM have become sitting ducks because the communal question has been kept `open` by giving a special status to kashmir- and this has kept ths issue of TNT alive since so many years. Remember, it is the Paki establishment which has played with the mullahs to keep their TNT alive and are now paying a huge price for sponsering jehadism. IM have as much a right to India as any other Hindu like Stuka of DM and these people do not decide whether IM including kashmiri muslims would agree to any raising the communal question again in this country. The fact remains that TNT was long buried in 1947 when the IM decided NOT to migrate to that fabled land of pure. Their decision is irreversible and the Indian Constitution has to honor its obligations by ensuring that people like Dost Mittar or Stuka do not raise this communal question again.
I think dost mittar is turning senile and weak that he can even contemplate of the communal solution- I am amazed!

Sadna
``..The reason is that declaring India a Hindu rashtra will then be the last remaining chance to remove this dangerous and prolonged ambiguity of India being a defacto Hindu homeland and dejure secular state, a dangerous ambiguity which has made Indian Muslims sitting ducks since independence. This ambiguity will only increase after a communal solution in J&K, putting Indian Muslims at greater risk..``

Yes, Sadna you are right, the IM also consider their future interwined with the issue of resolution of the Kashmir not on the basis of communal question and TNT but on cultural uniqueness of the region such as its `kashmiriyat`. So redrawing of the international borders is impossible- so is the `exchange` of populations. You are right in stating that IM have become sitting ducks because the communal question has been kept `open` by giving a special status to kashmir- and this has kept ths issue of TNT alive since so many years. Remember, it is the Paki establishment which has played with the mullahs to keep their TNT alive and are now paying a huge price for sponsering jehadism. IM have as much a right to India as any other Hindu like Stuka of DM and these people do not decide whether IM including kashmiri muslims would agree to any raising the communal question again in this country. The fact remains that TNT was long buried in 1947 when the IM decided NOT to migrate to that fabled land of pure. Their decision is irreversible and the Indian Constitution has to honor its obligations by ensuring that people like Dost Mittar or Stuka do not raise this communal question again.
I think dost mittar is turning senile and weak that he can even contemplate of the communal solution- I am amazed!

Kashmir is a no-go area for any hindu from the mainland anyway - anyone who dares go there goes at the risk of being beheaded or being shot at. It is as good as not having it. So why bother? It is true that for you hindus everything is chamri jaye par damRi na jaye, but if you look hard it is clear that you are losing both chamRi and damRi over at Kashmir. So why bother?

sadna #65 excellent post.

#59, 71 by Urstruly

You have tried it thrice and your butts were handed to you on a platter each time. So now you resort to other tactics? Remember, the resolve of 1 billion Indians (and yes, that includes Muslims) is behind our Kashmir policy. So mouth off as much as you can, for that`s ALL you can do.

Urstruly #59:
``It is time for hindus to RE-THINK kashmir. Sooner or later you will have to cough it up. Sooner the better.``
Heh heh, funnyman Urstruly, indulging in wishful thinking and divorced from reality as usual, like the Puki army. We can fight the terrorists that you send across to J&K indefinitely. We have the money and the manpower and the willpower. It is your pathetic nation that is going to suffer - when the jihadis turn their sights onto Musharraf, Karachi, your Shia-Sunni professionals, mosques etc.
You have already coughed up East Pakistan (remember?). NWFP is slipping from your grasp and was never yours. Kargil was on the Puki side till 1971. You have also coughed up Siachen to us (thank you!). The day is not far when you will have to cough up PoK and Sindh. The sooner the better.

Urstruly,

Please see a shrink, actual Jehadis die, the e-jehadis go mad.

The strain is getting to you.

`Rassi jal gayee par bal nahin gaye`

ballukhan,

There is no such thing as Kashmiriyat, certainly not unique enough to trigger division of land. If Kashmir valley has a different culture, so has Jammu and Ladakh. If Ks have a different language, so have Tamils, Assamese and Punjabis. A single inch of land given to `land of pure` or not-so-pure enemies of India will be suicidal.

Retaining Kashmir may have some strategic advantages as Sadna pointed out, but it is an ideological bulwark against tendencies of some people to dominate India and declare all others unIndian, and hence unwelcome. Maulana Bukhari (erstwhile Imam of Delhi Jama Masjid) met Syed Shah Gilani whem Mushy had come to India. He repeated the `atut ang` theory to Gilani who got infuriated and told him to lay-off; and that Indian Muslms don`t have a stake in Kashmir.

The fact is they do; and their stake is much higher than the stake of non-Muslim Indian citizens. If K is gone, Hyderabad, Bihar, U.P., North-East, Tamilnadu and Assam will follow. I`ll become a Khalistani myself and fight to give Sikhs their own state, based on religion. Why not?

Agar India ladoo baat raha hai, to Urstruly ka hi mooh kyun meetha ho, bakiyon ne kya gunah kiya hai?

Kaurasach:
“It is naive thinking like yours that India is in such an acursed shape. If this attitude continues, your descendents will be looking for roots from East of Ganga, and or south of Chambal”

My attitude is not new; if you go back to my article and interacts on this issue it has been quite consistent. It’s both moral and pragmatic. After accepting the UN resolutions, we backtracked right away. It is true that Pakistan did not vacate the occupied territories as required by the UN resolution, but it is also true that India refused cooperation with every UN intermediary sent to the region during the fifties (Dixon, Jarring?), all of whom blamed mostly India for non-cooperation. We went back even on our agreement with the Maharaja, which disillusioned even our own man, Sheikh Abdullah. We packed assemblies and our ‘pithoos’ won majorities in the Assembly even without fighting elections. We lost any goodwill we had among the populace by rigging elections and imposing unpopular governments there. Do you know that most of the Hurriyet leaders, even the Pak-based Salahudin are one-time politicians who were turned off by Indira Gandhi’s dictatorial ways?

So, we did not stand our moral grounds. How about pragmatic? We have not allowed other Indians to buy property or settle in J&K, unlike Pakistanis who have reduced local Kashmiris into a minority in POK. If we were not going to be moral, we should have done what Pakistan had done in POK and China had done in Tibet to change the demographics of the state to make it more favourable to us. We rejected proposals such as allowing ex-army people to settle in Kashmir. So, we failed on pragmatic grounds as well.

Failing both the morality and the pragmatic tests, our situation is that of:
Na khuda hee mila, na vasaal-e-sanam
Na idhar ke rahe, na udhar ke rahe

“What have you personally or the entire nation gained besides misery and several million refugees by yielding 25% of prime realestate and invaluable sentimental attachments? It has brought more misery than anything else.”

I do not know if I would have been better off if India had remained undivided [probably not, because all the cards would have been stacked against Hindus and Sikhs in the Muslim majority Punjab, just like against Kashmiri Pandits whom India could not protect]. But I am certain that India is better off, after having amputated the diseased limb. India today is politically stronger and more united than it has even been in its history, which would not have been the case if those muslims who wanted a separate country of their own were still there; the only ones who want to separate now are Kashmiris and see how much damage they have caused to the nation’s fabric. India would have been even stronger and more united if Kashmir had a nawab instead of a maharaja as its head at the time of the partition.

The big losers in the division of the country, in my opinion, are Muslims in general and the people of Pakistan in particular. After ethnically cleansing of the ‘napaak’ elements, they lost all hope of ever becoming a truly pluralistic society and will for ever be one or another variant of an Islamic society. They also lost the most dynamic and entrepreneurial class of people and have since been dependent for their survival upon allah, army and international crises as their saviours.

Sorry for the long answer to a short comment.


Ballukhan#68:

“Yes, Sadna you are right, the IM also consider their future interwined with the issue of resolution of the Kashmir not on the basis of communal question and TNT but on cultural uniqueness of the region such as its `kashmiriyat`.”

Who talks about Kashmiriyat except mostly Indians? Where was that kashmiriyat when the original kashmiris were run out of their homes? I think that the chances of the pandits ever going back to the valley is not much higher than the hindus-sikhs going back to Pakistan. It is ironic that one hardly hears this kashmiriyat word from the valley muslims.

I have always resented people asking IMs to prove their loyalty to India, and always will. But I do not overlook the fact that the attitude of IMs on the Kashmir issue, with exceptions like Chagla’s and Rafique Zakaria’s (both of them bohras, btw), was indifferent at best until the saffronites made it a ‘loyalty test’ for them. I am aware of the potential adverse implications of losing the valley for IMs and is the sole reason why I am not enthusiastic about this prospect (and wonder about the sincerity of those pakistanis who pretend that their hearts bleed whenever a Muslim bleeds and still want kashmir to secede!). But these adverse effects can be minimized if there is no plebiscite and the blame for losing Kashmir falls on the negotiating politicians rather than muslims voting against India.

I do not believe that Kashmir is necessary for a secular India. India is secular because of its constitution and because its Indian version is quite compatible with the pluralistic nature of the hindu religion.

Sadna:

I agree that the prospect of Kashmir turning into another Afghanistan cannot be discounted. But if India resists the temptation of supporting one or the other faction, it can immunize itself from its fallout after it washes its hands off it.

Yes, we agree to disagree, because you are less affected by the communal virus than I am!

dost-mittar #77
``because you are less affected by the communal virus than I am!``

Glad that we agree to disagree, but didn`t understand this?

Just let them vote on it! plebiscite! And make it fair!...the Kashmiri people have a right to form their own nation, or do whatever they want. India and Pakistan should help them hold a plebiscite, one welcome to all classes of Kashmiri people. But of course that would happen in an ideal world. Back in the real South Asia, I don`t think the dictionary can define the terms free, fair, or justice in good ole South Asia. If I`ve reverberated on somebody elses comments, please forgive me for the repetition. I`m too lazy to read all of the comments. If one gets involved with India and Pakistan in the Kashmir issue then politics get really complicated. So a peaceful decision, whatever it is, would be the best solution.

Ref Urstruly #71

[Kashmir is a no-go area for any hindu from the mainland anyway - anyone who dares go there goes at the risk of being beheaded or being shot at.]

I think you mean Karachi, not Kashmir. There have been half a dozen articles on Chowk about Karachi after one of the usual bouts of Shia-killings.

Beheading? I am glad at least one Pakistani has memories of Daniel Pearl.

re: stuka #62

///``I think your idea is flawed. What would autonomy / handover achieve? Make the goons in charge! They would implement their laws and no one can question them. This is exactly what the goons want their fiefdom.``

But at least it would not be our problem.///

Didn’t we try that in 1947? I am not sure it worked…….


/// By status quo I meant that Indians do not have a desire to either fight for POK or give up Kashmir. I think that is in line with current thinking even now. Can you extrapolate your point?///

Stuka I travel a lot all over India and whenever the topic of Kashmir has come up in a conversation I have noticed a hardening of attitudes all over the country. There is a feeling among Indians especially the young that we have almost sorted out the problem in Kashmir and we do not need to negotiate with Pakistan. In fact there is a definite desire to liberate POK.

Regards,


Faruk

I have some questions not related to the board (my apologies in advance):
a) Why do Muslims worship at the Kaaba, which is just a stone, when Islam bans idol-worship?
b) What is the Kaaba made of (granite?) - I am assuming it is man-made and not naturally occurring, since it is a cube. Who built or created the Kaaba?

I could not find the answers on any website, hence the query on this board.

Okay, this is the last chance for hindus to RE-THINK Kashmir....last chance or else......

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sadna#78:
That remark was meant as a compliment to you! Despite my best efforts, I probably still have an of element communal thinking in me.