A Shiraz July 8, 2004
#287 Posted by rsaxena on July 24, 2004 8:39:38 am
haha...if any muslim says something you don`t like, he must be a jew, hindu, or christian...
#286 Posted by solitude on July 24, 2004 8:39:37 am
#284 by nikki7777 on July 23, 2004 6:28pm PT
Nikki, yeah you can have some though a part of me is going : is she going to put up a picture of me carrying milk bottles on chowk?
In light of a rather nasty incident I have imposed sanctions on trade with Islamic women.
Let an iron curtain forever protect the free from the enslaved.
The sanctions may be lifted if you decide to ally with the free world (if you are non practising Muslim) or if you are a practising Muslim you refrain from Islamic Proselytization.
Either way you will be giving the following pop quiz.
What farm animal do I remind you of?
A) Pig
B) Horse
C) Farmer
D) Sheep
E) _ _ _ _ _ _
There is a good answer to this and if you get it right then the milk comes with ice cream.
p.s. email the answers if its not too much trouble.
#285 by yagacho on July 23, 2004 9:44pm PT
Please read #55 by solitude on July 9, 2004 10:57pm PT
Please read #16 by solitude on July 9, 2004 7:06am PT
#279/278 Summaiya
please read #102 by solitude on July 12, 2004 5:58am PT
Nikki, yeah you can have some though a part of me is going : is she going to put up a picture of me carrying milk bottles on chowk?
In light of a rather nasty incident I have imposed sanctions on trade with Islamic women.
Let an iron curtain forever protect the free from the enslaved.
The sanctions may be lifted if you decide to ally with the free world (if you are non practising Muslim) or if you are a practising Muslim you refrain from Islamic Proselytization.
Either way you will be giving the following pop quiz.
What farm animal do I remind you of?
A) Pig
B) Horse
C) Farmer
D) Sheep
E) _ _ _ _ _ _
There is a good answer to this and if you get it right then the milk comes with ice cream.
p.s. email the answers if its not too much trouble.
#285 by yagacho on July 23, 2004 9:44pm PT
Please read #55 by solitude on July 9, 2004 10:57pm PT
Please read #16 by solitude on July 9, 2004 7:06am PT
#279/278 Summaiya
please read #102 by solitude on July 12, 2004 5:58am PT
#285 Posted by yagacho on July 23, 2004 9:44:45 pm
Mr A. Shiraz,
I would seriously suggest that you get the shortest pair of skirts from USA (your dreamland) and put it on your sister/mother/chachi/phuphi/daadi/naani/khala/mausi/bhanji. After that ask them to go around the city in it, this will give them freedom that you want for your muslim sisters. Best place to start reform is home, so my friend start at your home and let the chowkwallas know about the progress.
HAIL NUDITY!!
P.S. - I have serious doubts that you are a hindu posing as a muslim....
Eagerly waiting for your response.
I would seriously suggest that you get the shortest pair of skirts from USA (your dreamland) and put it on your sister/mother/chachi/phuphi/daadi/naani/khala/mausi/bhanji. After that ask them to go around the city in it, this will give them freedom that you want for your muslim sisters. Best place to start reform is home, so my friend start at your home and let the chowkwallas know about the progress.
HAIL NUDITY!!
P.S. - I have serious doubts that you are a hindu posing as a muslim....
Eagerly waiting for your response.
#284 Posted by nikki7777 on July 23, 2004 6:28:40 pm
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#283 Posted by solitude on July 22, 2004 8:46:51 pm
#282 by nikki7777 on July 22, 2004 5:37pm PT
I am loaded with ice cream (rocky road) and Milk because I love em both! Summer would not be the same without milk shake.
NYC is for people who have lots of money and therefore don`t care about money or people who don`t have any money because they don`t care about money.
I am loaded with ice cream (rocky road) and Milk because I love em both! Summer would not be the same without milk shake.
NYC is for people who have lots of money and therefore don`t care about money or people who don`t have any money because they don`t care about money.
#282 Posted by nikki7777 on July 22, 2004 5:37:23 pm
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#281 Posted by solitude on July 22, 2004 3:30:35 pm
Veiling Of Muslim Women Act of Homosexual Muslims In Denial
A friend referred me to the following picture :

Is the boy wondering ``What the hell did I do?``
Well this is what may happen in public and it has no sinister meaning for Iranians so this is not scarring enough. I am talking about being dragged into alleyways or being handed a semi erect pen_is in the middle of the streets!
I have had to put up with that in the Islamic countries from Pakistan to the Middle East and this is in ``diplomatic`` and international neighborhoods and military bases and our Muslim ``International`` schools or Pakistani Schools.
It makes me wonder if Mohammad himself was a gay man in denial and so hated the women folk that he decided to abuse as many as he could (he married atleast 13 and one child not to mention concubines). Then this man in alliance with Omar and other ``Sahaba`` (fellows or a troupe of gay men in denial?) decided to banish all women from sight and the streets.
This is what the women of Islam are fighting for? This religion and this slavery and this veil?
And they take it as an attack and lash out against the ``West``. Open your eyes! it is the Muslim men AND women who want you to throw away the veils because we are not gay men in denial.
I feel bad for the poor ``western`` woman who had to be dragged into this debate. She is just being herself and winning tennis matches and enjoying life but these crazy fanatics are out to destroy themselves and us and everyone who is not like them. Just read the little ``ditty`` written by a hatefilled Muslim woman! that was posted a while back.
Veiling whether adopted willingly or forcibly is evil and unnecessary just like slavery wether adopted because you were caught in a war or you were in debt or you were forced into it is evil and unnatural and unnecessary.
Ofcourse once the veil on women`s minds are lifted the fanatics are afraid their whole religion will collapse in the ugly pit on which it is founded. So opposition is expected but somehow dirty tricks, name calling and physical assaults are always a surprise to me ...
A friend referred me to the following picture :
Is the boy wondering ``What the hell did I do?``
Well this is what may happen in public and it has no sinister meaning for Iranians so this is not scarring enough. I am talking about being dragged into alleyways or being handed a semi erect pen_is in the middle of the streets!
I have had to put up with that in the Islamic countries from Pakistan to the Middle East and this is in ``diplomatic`` and international neighborhoods and military bases and our Muslim ``International`` schools or Pakistani Schools.
It makes me wonder if Mohammad himself was a gay man in denial and so hated the women folk that he decided to abuse as many as he could (he married atleast 13 and one child not to mention concubines). Then this man in alliance with Omar and other ``Sahaba`` (fellows or a troupe of gay men in denial?) decided to banish all women from sight and the streets.
This is what the women of Islam are fighting for? This religion and this slavery and this veil?
And they take it as an attack and lash out against the ``West``. Open your eyes! it is the Muslim men AND women who want you to throw away the veils because we are not gay men in denial.
I feel bad for the poor ``western`` woman who had to be dragged into this debate. She is just being herself and winning tennis matches and enjoying life but these crazy fanatics are out to destroy themselves and us and everyone who is not like them. Just read the little ``ditty`` written by a hatefilled Muslim woman! that was posted a while back.
Veiling whether adopted willingly or forcibly is evil and unnecessary just like slavery wether adopted because you were caught in a war or you were in debt or you were forced into it is evil and unnatural and unnecessary.
Ofcourse once the veil on women`s minds are lifted the fanatics are afraid their whole religion will collapse in the ugly pit on which it is founded. So opposition is expected but somehow dirty tricks, name calling and physical assaults are always a surprise to me ...
#280 Posted by ZahraJ on July 22, 2004 1:52:10 pm
The following feature from Time Magazine provides an indepth overview of the lives of many women who have been forced to take a hijab. Shiraz`s article may seem nonsense and out of line to those who believe in taking hijab out of their free will, but there are enough examples all over the world on how muslim women are subjugated on the name of religion and the hijab(azaab). In that case, Shiraz`s article is very pertinent.
Marked Women
A rash of unpunished honor killings highlights the harrowing dangers females face in the new Iraq
By VIVIENNE WALT/BAGHDAD
http://www.time.com
``When U.S. forces overthrew Saddam Hussein 15 months ago, the Bush Administration proclaimed that women`s rights would be a centerpiece of its project to make Iraq a democratic model for the rest of the Arab world. But for many Iraqi women, the tyranny of Saddam`s regime has been replaced by chronic violence and growing religious conservatism that have stifled their hopes for wider freedoms — and, for many, put their lives in even greater peril. For women like Shaima, the most terrifying development has been the rash of honor killings committed by Iraqi men against sisters, wives, daughters or mothers whom they suspect of straying from traditional rules of chastity and fidelity. Although such killings are hard to quantify and occurred during Saddam`s regime as well, Iraqi professionals believe that women are now being murdered by their kin at an unprecedented rate. On the basis of case reports provided by police, court officials and doctors at Baghdad`s forensics institute, the number of victims of honor killings in Iraq since the U.S. invasion in March 2003 may total in the hundreds. (By comparison, in neighboring Jordan, where women`s-rights advocates have succeeded in bringing attention to the issue, activists report an average of 20 honor killings a year.) ``This isn`t just an issue about women. It`s about the whole society,`` says Safia al-Souhail, a female Iraqi politician who was appointed ambassador to Egypt last week. ``We have to stop it. It`s going on everywhere, and no one is speaking about it.``
The rise in honor killings comes amid ongoing violence, including four car bombs last week that killed at least 28 Iraqis. The instability that has plagued Iraq since the war`s end 15 months ago has curtailed the spread of liberties that U.S. officials once promised would have taken root by now. Violent crime remains rampant. And while interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi last week vowed to ``annihilate`` the armed insurgents, few Iraqis expect relief from the dangers that have become part of daily life.
Women are at the greatest risk. Many have become virtual prisoners inside their houses, seeking a safe haven amid rising rates of rape, kidnapping and carjacking. At the same time, as the power of Iraq`s Muslim clerics has grown, the everyday freedoms that Iraqi women enjoyed under Saddam`s secular Baathist regime have eroded. Women who once felt free to dress in Western clothing and shop alone now must wear a hijab, the traditional Muslim head scarf, when venturing outside. Many government offices require female employees to wear a veil at work. ``Since the war, women feel they cannot go anywhere without it,`` says Jacqueline Zia, 30, who runs a hair salon in Baghdad. The perils of being out after dark have forced Zia to eliminate the salon`s evening hours, which for years provided women with a social outing away from their husbands.``
Marked Women
A rash of unpunished honor killings highlights the harrowing dangers females face in the new Iraq
By VIVIENNE WALT/BAGHDAD
http://www.time.com
``When U.S. forces overthrew Saddam Hussein 15 months ago, the Bush Administration proclaimed that women`s rights would be a centerpiece of its project to make Iraq a democratic model for the rest of the Arab world. But for many Iraqi women, the tyranny of Saddam`s regime has been replaced by chronic violence and growing religious conservatism that have stifled their hopes for wider freedoms — and, for many, put their lives in even greater peril. For women like Shaima, the most terrifying development has been the rash of honor killings committed by Iraqi men against sisters, wives, daughters or mothers whom they suspect of straying from traditional rules of chastity and fidelity. Although such killings are hard to quantify and occurred during Saddam`s regime as well, Iraqi professionals believe that women are now being murdered by their kin at an unprecedented rate. On the basis of case reports provided by police, court officials and doctors at Baghdad`s forensics institute, the number of victims of honor killings in Iraq since the U.S. invasion in March 2003 may total in the hundreds. (By comparison, in neighboring Jordan, where women`s-rights advocates have succeeded in bringing attention to the issue, activists report an average of 20 honor killings a year.) ``This isn`t just an issue about women. It`s about the whole society,`` says Safia al-Souhail, a female Iraqi politician who was appointed ambassador to Egypt last week. ``We have to stop it. It`s going on everywhere, and no one is speaking about it.``
The rise in honor killings comes amid ongoing violence, including four car bombs last week that killed at least 28 Iraqis. The instability that has plagued Iraq since the war`s end 15 months ago has curtailed the spread of liberties that U.S. officials once promised would have taken root by now. Violent crime remains rampant. And while interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi last week vowed to ``annihilate`` the armed insurgents, few Iraqis expect relief from the dangers that have become part of daily life.
Women are at the greatest risk. Many have become virtual prisoners inside their houses, seeking a safe haven amid rising rates of rape, kidnapping and carjacking. At the same time, as the power of Iraq`s Muslim clerics has grown, the everyday freedoms that Iraqi women enjoyed under Saddam`s secular Baathist regime have eroded. Women who once felt free to dress in Western clothing and shop alone now must wear a hijab, the traditional Muslim head scarf, when venturing outside. Many government offices require female employees to wear a veil at work. ``Since the war, women feel they cannot go anywhere without it,`` says Jacqueline Zia, 30, who runs a hair salon in Baghdad. The perils of being out after dark have forced Zia to eliminate the salon`s evening hours, which for years provided women with a social outing away from their husbands.``
#279 Posted by Summaiya on July 22, 2004 1:07:33 pm
I am a Muslim woman
by Jenn Zaghloul
I am a Muslim woman
Feel free to ask me why
When I walk,
I walk with dignity
When I speak
I do not lie
I am a Muslim woman
Not all of me you`ll see
But what you should appreciate
Is that the choice I make is free
I`m not plagued with depression
I`m neither cheated nor abused
I don`t envy other women
And I`m certainly not confused
Note, I speak perfect English
Et un petit peu de Francais aussi
I`m majoring in Linguistics
So you need not speak slowly
I run my own small business
Every cent I earn is mine
I drive my Chevy to school & work
And no, that`s not a crime!
You often stare as I walk by
To understand my choice of Hijab, you fail,
But peace and power I have found
As I am equal to any male!
I am a Muslim woman
So please don`t pity me
For God has guided me to truth
And now I`m finally free!
(c)1999 Jenn Zaghloul
by Jenn Zaghloul
I am a Muslim woman
Feel free to ask me why
When I walk,
I walk with dignity
When I speak
I do not lie
I am a Muslim woman
Not all of me you`ll see
But what you should appreciate
Is that the choice I make is free
I`m not plagued with depression
I`m neither cheated nor abused
I don`t envy other women
And I`m certainly not confused
Note, I speak perfect English
Et un petit peu de Francais aussi
I`m majoring in Linguistics
So you need not speak slowly
I run my own small business
Every cent I earn is mine
I drive my Chevy to school & work
And no, that`s not a crime!
You often stare as I walk by
To understand my choice of Hijab, you fail,
But peace and power I have found
As I am equal to any male!
I am a Muslim woman
So please don`t pity me
For God has guided me to truth
And now I`m finally free!
(c)1999 Jenn Zaghloul
#278 Posted by Summaiya on July 22, 2004 1:07:33 pm
Re: Solitude
Utility of the right to vote is of little use if the vote is given to the likes of Khomeini or some Mullah who holds your reigns.
True enough, Mr.Shiraz. But, then are you equating a women’s right or decision to enveil or wear a scarf with politics i.e. with dictatorship. So, how do you explain the thousands of Indonesian or Malaysian females who wear a head scarf? Is Indonesia or Malaysia ruled by the “likes of Khomeini”?
You can wear a skirt underneath that veil but it makes little difference to the fact that these veiled women are paying obeisance to the institution of slavery.
BTW wearing skirts or lingerie is not a measure of liberty but wearing a veil is a measure of your servitude.
Ahan! You finally realized that maximum exposure is not the test for liberty!
But then you are still assuming that all scarf wearing or envieled women consider themselves lesser to men, subhuman, inferior etc. I don’t think of myself as such. Tell us frankly? How many scarf wearing or enveiled females do you interact with in daily life? STOP GENERALIZING FOR GOD’S SAKE! All the fingers of a hand are not equal.
The only women who may think so are the ones who are uncomfortable wearing the head scarf or veil and are doing so under family pressure or are segragated from the males. Now, such females should definitely cast off their veils, otherwise their frustration is going to land them in a far more corrupt world. I heard that in the recent internet café scandal, most of the females on video were enveiled or wore headscarfs….
So, instead of generalizing, please accept that not all Muslim females consider themselves frustrated or less to men, because they wear a veil or a headscarf. No one is of course denying that there may be some who indeed do want to cast off their veil.
The fact that some woman is driving a Mercedes means little for women or Muslims if the woman is wearing a veil.
Now, this sentence needs some explaining because I don’t really get your point! I know a friend who wears a head scarf and drives a B.M.W…. but should this fact mean anything to any one at all? What exactly is your point of evaluation? What exactly is this example supposed to portray?
It means little if Benazir comes to power in Pakistan when she is abused in front of her feudal lord of a husband and used by the men in her family to run Islamic Pakistan into the ground. Symbolic gestures and using western vocabulary to make excuses for veils does NOT excuse veiling.
If you have issues against Benazir, then what do you think about the following: The neighboring Bangladesh is under the rule of Begum Khaleda Zia, widow of former president Ziaur Rahman.In Southeast Asia, Indonesia is run by President Megawati Sukarnoputri, daughter of charismatic independence leader Sukarno.
In contrast, western societies didn’t produce their first female head of state for almost two decades more, until 1979, when Margaret Thatcher became prime minister of Great Britain. That same year, Simone Weil of France became the first president of the European Union. Yet, three quarters of a century after winning the right to vote, women in America still haven’t had the choice of a single female candidate for president from any of the major parties.
Meanwhile, Asia continues to turn to numerous female rulers. Benazir Bhutto has twice served the same role in Pakistan, becoming the first woman to head a Muslim state. When Sheik Hasina Wazed took over as prime minister of Bangladesh, she succeeded another woman, Khaleda Zia.
By the way even male candidates in politics are used or use other people; are influenced or influence; crumble when given pressure or make others crumble. No party has really done wonders for Pakistan. In politics everyone exploits the other. Do you think Jamali was not influenced by party members or external factors?
Are Muslim women reliable allies of the west`s?
Umm.. I think any sensible patriot should be a reliable ally of their own country. For instance American women should be reliable allies of America, don’t you think? But then if you are an immigrant and depend on the host country , then that’s a totally different issue.
This is Islam the same religion that literally means submission. Is it not laughable?
The submission you are talking about is submission to Allah, not to the desires of men like you who want to impose their wishes on others. Every human has a right to live their life the way they want and the way you are arguing is hardly logical. It is only as good as your word against mine.
Have you seen ONE SINGLE Muslim woman ever speak kindly of the west? Have you ever seen one SINGLE Muslim woman say anything nice towards the people who risk their lives so Muslim women may get a western, secular education? Have you seen a SINGLE Muslim woman ever praise the very liberators who shed blood for them?
You will never stop generalizing , will you? I appreciate the west for giving better opportunities for students like me to get an advanced and comprehensive degree. It is only because of their kindness, that they let us Muslim women get good education in their respected universities.. But then, it is not free. We pay for it!
But then, I am not ignoring the scholarships given… and that aspect is certainly commendable!
I praise the west for letting people who can’t get jobs in their own country to migrate in their territory, and earn a decent livelihood.
I praise the likes of Diana, Mother Teresa, and the Red Cross etc. for striving to help the third world countries.
I praise the west for letting immigrants practice their own religion freely with out any fear. I praise them for letting the immigrants establish their own mosques, temples, Gurdwara’s, synagogues etc.
When the west requests that slavery be abolished these people retort ``but we live in a desert we are poor give us your luxury cars and we will abolish slavery`` What does a Merc have to do with slavery?
I again wonder what this has to do with the scarf and the veil. What you write reflects the selfishness and greed and corruption of the leaders of most Islamic countries, and nothing else.
Then whets with the attention hungry veiled Muslimas women who derive their ``social`` worth from chat rooms and IRC and the santized ``veil`` of the internet? They would rather email or talk on the phone rather than go see an opera or hold hands and walk in the park.
Hmm... Very true. I have to agree with you here. This is another thing which I frankly like about western societies. But then, on a recent visit to Saudi Arabia I noticed that most couples and spouses hold hands when ever they go out. It was the most, sweetest, most natural thing to do and it did make me wonder, why, people in Pakistan, create such a hoo ha over a public show of affection?
I certainly don’t approve of hiding feelings or keeping them pent up inside. It is only because of such lack of expression, that most females (i.e . . . the unfortunate ones who spend their life segregated from the opposite sex) when are made of the internet and its many possibilities, they alter for the worse. The recent Islamabad internet café incident, hence, unfortunately involved a majority of burqa clad or enveiled females.
As I said when all the worthy men have abandoned Islamic Pakistan you can look around and you will find the eager grin of the Taliban looking to take on a 4th wife or concubine you may take consolation that though you may be abused and the 4th wife and veiled at least you are not committing a sin against Allah.
Couldn’t agree with you, more. It is sad that some people are now promoting a most talibanised form of Islam in Pakistan. However, not every one is accepting it. There are people who disapprove of it and object to it rather strongly and are fighting against it. And, believe it or not, I am one of them.
I just think that you should stop generalizing and stop assuming that all Scarf wearing females are backward, oppressed or brainwashed.
Kind regards.
Ps. it seems to me that you have been unfortunate in getting to know Muslim women as the only ones that you have met (it seems) are oppressed or brainwashed. :)
Utility of the right to vote is of little use if the vote is given to the likes of Khomeini or some Mullah who holds your reigns.
True enough, Mr.Shiraz. But, then are you equating a women’s right or decision to enveil or wear a scarf with politics i.e. with dictatorship. So, how do you explain the thousands of Indonesian or Malaysian females who wear a head scarf? Is Indonesia or Malaysia ruled by the “likes of Khomeini”?
You can wear a skirt underneath that veil but it makes little difference to the fact that these veiled women are paying obeisance to the institution of slavery.
BTW wearing skirts or lingerie is not a measure of liberty but wearing a veil is a measure of your servitude.
Ahan! You finally realized that maximum exposure is not the test for liberty!
But then you are still assuming that all scarf wearing or envieled women consider themselves lesser to men, subhuman, inferior etc. I don’t think of myself as such. Tell us frankly? How many scarf wearing or enveiled females do you interact with in daily life? STOP GENERALIZING FOR GOD’S SAKE! All the fingers of a hand are not equal.
The only women who may think so are the ones who are uncomfortable wearing the head scarf or veil and are doing so under family pressure or are segragated from the males. Now, such females should definitely cast off their veils, otherwise their frustration is going to land them in a far more corrupt world. I heard that in the recent internet café scandal, most of the females on video were enveiled or wore headscarfs….
So, instead of generalizing, please accept that not all Muslim females consider themselves frustrated or less to men, because they wear a veil or a headscarf. No one is of course denying that there may be some who indeed do want to cast off their veil.
The fact that some woman is driving a Mercedes means little for women or Muslims if the woman is wearing a veil.
Now, this sentence needs some explaining because I don’t really get your point! I know a friend who wears a head scarf and drives a B.M.W…. but should this fact mean anything to any one at all? What exactly is your point of evaluation? What exactly is this example supposed to portray?
It means little if Benazir comes to power in Pakistan when she is abused in front of her feudal lord of a husband and used by the men in her family to run Islamic Pakistan into the ground. Symbolic gestures and using western vocabulary to make excuses for veils does NOT excuse veiling.
If you have issues against Benazir, then what do you think about the following: The neighboring Bangladesh is under the rule of Begum Khaleda Zia, widow of former president Ziaur Rahman.In Southeast Asia, Indonesia is run by President Megawati Sukarnoputri, daughter of charismatic independence leader Sukarno.
In contrast, western societies didn’t produce their first female head of state for almost two decades more, until 1979, when Margaret Thatcher became prime minister of Great Britain. That same year, Simone Weil of France became the first president of the European Union. Yet, three quarters of a century after winning the right to vote, women in America still haven’t had the choice of a single female candidate for president from any of the major parties.
Meanwhile, Asia continues to turn to numerous female rulers. Benazir Bhutto has twice served the same role in Pakistan, becoming the first woman to head a Muslim state. When Sheik Hasina Wazed took over as prime minister of Bangladesh, she succeeded another woman, Khaleda Zia.
By the way even male candidates in politics are used or use other people; are influenced or influence; crumble when given pressure or make others crumble. No party has really done wonders for Pakistan. In politics everyone exploits the other. Do you think Jamali was not influenced by party members or external factors?
Are Muslim women reliable allies of the west`s?
Umm.. I think any sensible patriot should be a reliable ally of their own country. For instance American women should be reliable allies of America, don’t you think? But then if you are an immigrant and depend on the host country , then that’s a totally different issue.
This is Islam the same religion that literally means submission. Is it not laughable?
The submission you are talking about is submission to Allah, not to the desires of men like you who want to impose their wishes on others. Every human has a right to live their life the way they want and the way you are arguing is hardly logical. It is only as good as your word against mine.
Have you seen ONE SINGLE Muslim woman ever speak kindly of the west? Have you ever seen one SINGLE Muslim woman say anything nice towards the people who risk their lives so Muslim women may get a western, secular education? Have you seen a SINGLE Muslim woman ever praise the very liberators who shed blood for them?
You will never stop generalizing , will you? I appreciate the west for giving better opportunities for students like me to get an advanced and comprehensive degree. It is only because of their kindness, that they let us Muslim women get good education in their respected universities.. But then, it is not free. We pay for it!
But then, I am not ignoring the scholarships given… and that aspect is certainly commendable!
I praise the west for letting people who can’t get jobs in their own country to migrate in their territory, and earn a decent livelihood.
I praise the likes of Diana, Mother Teresa, and the Red Cross etc. for striving to help the third world countries.
I praise the west for letting immigrants practice their own religion freely with out any fear. I praise them for letting the immigrants establish their own mosques, temples, Gurdwara’s, synagogues etc.
When the west requests that slavery be abolished these people retort ``but we live in a desert we are poor give us your luxury cars and we will abolish slavery`` What does a Merc have to do with slavery?
I again wonder what this has to do with the scarf and the veil. What you write reflects the selfishness and greed and corruption of the leaders of most Islamic countries, and nothing else.
Then whets with the attention hungry veiled Muslimas women who derive their ``social`` worth from chat rooms and IRC and the santized ``veil`` of the internet? They would rather email or talk on the phone rather than go see an opera or hold hands and walk in the park.
Hmm... Very true. I have to agree with you here. This is another thing which I frankly like about western societies. But then, on a recent visit to Saudi Arabia I noticed that most couples and spouses hold hands when ever they go out. It was the most, sweetest, most natural thing to do and it did make me wonder, why, people in Pakistan, create such a hoo ha over a public show of affection?
I certainly don’t approve of hiding feelings or keeping them pent up inside. It is only because of such lack of expression, that most females (i.e . . . the unfortunate ones who spend their life segregated from the opposite sex) when are made of the internet and its many possibilities, they alter for the worse. The recent Islamabad internet café incident, hence, unfortunately involved a majority of burqa clad or enveiled females.
As I said when all the worthy men have abandoned Islamic Pakistan you can look around and you will find the eager grin of the Taliban looking to take on a 4th wife or concubine you may take consolation that though you may be abused and the 4th wife and veiled at least you are not committing a sin against Allah.
Couldn’t agree with you, more. It is sad that some people are now promoting a most talibanised form of Islam in Pakistan. However, not every one is accepting it. There are people who disapprove of it and object to it rather strongly and are fighting against it. And, believe it or not, I am one of them.
I just think that you should stop generalizing and stop assuming that all Scarf wearing females are backward, oppressed or brainwashed.
Kind regards.
Ps. it seems to me that you have been unfortunate in getting to know Muslim women as the only ones that you have met (it seems) are oppressed or brainwashed. :)
#277 Posted by leveller1 on July 22, 2004 7:34:42 am
This argument about the freedom of choice is BS.
The women who `voluntarily` choose to wear the Hijab choose to do so because of religious interpretations that are without exception by male scholars. The women who `choose` to wear the Hijab are merely responding to what the men have been telling them i.e. what religion and piety require of them. It is a vicious cycle that Muslim men have concocted to keep Muslim women backward. There are women in the National Assembly who choose to defend Hudood ordinance. It is because they ascribe to fanatical interpretations of the faith by their menfolk.
#276 Posted by solitude on July 22, 2004 1:27:49 am
#274 by kaurasach on July 21, 2004 1:07pm PT
Sorry couldn`t find what you were referring to. That unplugged area is rather big.
Enormity of Other Crimes Does Not Diminish Hijab
The fact that there is murder rampant , murder being the greatest crime did not prevent the abolitionists from striking out against the institution of slavery. Therefore Imam Badawi and his pleas that Muslims need more Levis and cellphones before they can handle Hijab and Veils is irrelevant.
The institution of veiling has to be abolished. Start from your homes and families and then move forward.
Sorry couldn`t find what you were referring to. That unplugged area is rather big.
Enormity of Other Crimes Does Not Diminish Hijab
The fact that there is murder rampant , murder being the greatest crime did not prevent the abolitionists from striking out against the institution of slavery. Therefore Imam Badawi and his pleas that Muslims need more Levis and cellphones before they can handle Hijab and Veils is irrelevant.
The institution of veiling has to be abolished. Start from your homes and families and then move forward.
#275 Posted by FouadShah on July 21, 2004 1:07:33 pm
THE QUESTION OF HIJAB AND CHOICE
By Sound Vision Staff Writer
The discussion at the Islam Awareness Week exhibition started out nicely enough. We talked about women`s rights, domestic violence, sexual abuse, heavy, heavy issues. It was interesting, she was a feminist, and I, a Muslim woman. But we connected.
Then, as always, the topic turned to Hijab. She started out politely enough, complimenting me on mine and the way I wore it. She asked why I wore it. Faith and personal choice, I replied, the words practically a mantra now after speaking to several women about it in the past. But I began to feel that familiar knot in my stomach. I knew what the next question would be.
“As a feminist, I support your right to wear Hijab because it`s a choice. But if you really believe in choice, don`t you support the right of women NOT to wear Hijab in Iran, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia, where Hijab is forced on women?”
I gulped. What could I say? I looked at my feet, and then looked up. She had me cornered.
******
“I just find it incredibly difficult to negotiate this question,” says Kathy Bullock, a Hijabi who completed a PhD. thesis on The Politics of the Veil from the University of Toronto`s Political Science Department in January.
Muslims and Liberals, especially those who are feminists, occasionally butt heads over this issue.
For liberals, Bullock explains, their views on Hijab are clear. “For them, even the mere fact that it`s a thorny question for us it`s a problem because for them the issue is clear: the individual has the right to dress as they choose.”
She notes that Muslims, on the other hand, do favor kind of state enforcement of Shariah, and by extension, Hijab.
The three countries most usually cited for Hijab enforcement are Afghanistan, Iran and Saudi Arabia.
Hijab, more specifically the Burqa, has been enforced in Afghanistan since the Taliban took over major parts of the country in 1996 following years of civil war. The Burqa covers the entire body, head and face.
In Iran, Bullock says Hijab has been enforced since 1981, two years after the Islamic Revolution took over the country`s leadership, with the support of most Iranians.
In Saudi Arabia, Bullock says she knows of no exact law making Hijab mandatory in the state, but it seems custom, social and family pressure play a role in ensuring Hijab, as well as the Niqab or face covering, is worn.
In all three cases, some form of violence has been associated with not complying to Hijab in these countries, including beating and whipping.
The perception of many liberals is that Islam is violent, misogynist, and anti-personal choice, with an Islamic state ideally interfering in every aspect of its citizens` lives.
A RESPONSE TO THE QUESTION-SOME POINTS
Jamal Badawi is part of the North American Fiqh Council. He notes that there is no precedent in Islamic teaching for state enforcement of HIjab. However, there is evidence of positive pressure and encouragement to wearing Islamic dress.
Badawi offers a few ways the “liberal” question can be answered:
1. WE DO NOT SUPPORT WHAT CONTRADICTS ISLAM
This point has to be mentioned at the outset, in order to set the guidelines for the response to this question.
“One cannot say I support the ‘right` to disregard the teaching of Islam,” says Badawi in an interview with Sound Vision from his home in Halifax, Nova Scotia. “That`s the trick in this question.”
This is also important to remember because liberals do not view not wearing Hijab as a wrong.
2. WE SUPPORT THE RIGHT METHOD THOUGH
“What one can say safely is that we support the Prophetic approach in bringing about change as it was done in the matter of Hijab without resort to compulsion or force,” explains Badawi.”
Bullock agrees that it`s important to separate the obligation of Hijab from the violence that is often associated with its enforcement in some Muslim societies. She notes a Muslim should condemn violence, for example, but that it can be separated from the issue of Hijab enforcement by the state.
3. NO SOCIETY HAS ABSOLUTE FREEDOM
In response to the enforcement of Hijab in some Muslim countries, Badawi says:
”When we say choice, there is no even liberal democracy in our century that allows free choice in the absolute sense. For instance, even in the Western world if a woman or man wants to make a ‘choice` of walking naked in a public place, we know that this is not regarded as an acceptable ‘choice`.”
“That shows that societies have the right to set reasonable limits on choices so as not to harm society at large or its ‘moral values`. It is in the same vain that it would not be inappropriate for an Islamic state to set those reasonable limits.”
Bullock suggests making parallels between dress cods in Muslim countries and Western countries. For instance, in most of the West, women cannot go topless on the streets (although it is legal in the Canadian province of Ontario).
4. IN AN ISLAMIC STATE THERE SHOULD BE CHOICE IN TYPE OF HIJAB
Badawi points out that Muslim states should allow for differences in interpretation of the Hijab, most notably, whether the face of a Muslim woman can remain uncovered or not.
“I must say that the reasonableness of those limits [on dress] should imply that no one particular interpretation should be forced on all so long as there is another legitimate interpretation,” he says.
“If there are these two Fiqh positions, nobody has the right to enforce stricter limits if there is another legitimate interpretation which excludes the covering of the face.”
5. NO VIGILANTE GROUPS TO ENFORCE HIJAB
“It must be emphasized that the concept of vigilante is unacceptable in certain kinds of enforcement of the law,” says Badawi. “So long as there is a state in place, an Islamic state, it would be the duty of the state to enforce it on other levels.”
“It is not the right of individuals or groups to enforce criminal law, for example, otherwise it would be a total chaos, because these are matters that require due process of law in front of competent judges”
“One cannot refer to the broad Quranic injunction to enjoin the good and forbid the evil to justify enforcement of criminal law. Organizations however, may within the boundaries of the law advise and encourage the enjoining the good and forbidding the evil just as individuals do.”
6. HIJAB: GET OVER IT
The “over obsession” with Hijab also needs to be addressed when such a question is brought up, says Badawi.
“Given the nature of what`s happening in Muslim societies today there are lots of other wrongs on a more basic level that need to be corrected,” he notes.
“Like the issue of Iman [Faith] and only after that is attained, detailed issues like this [Hijab] would fall in place without much pressure.”
#274 Posted by kaurasach on July 21, 2004 1:07:32 pm
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#273 Posted by FouadShah on July 21, 2004 11:04:31 am

ALYA KAZAAK, a refugee case manager at ACCESS in Dearborn, says her choice to wear hijab was ``the most positive decision I have made.``
WEARING HIJAB: VEIL OF VALOR
3 Muslim females talk about a lasting symbol of faith, pride
November 6, 2001
BY EMILIA ASKARI
FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER
Alya Kazak had been thinking about wearing hijab, a scarf that would publicly identify her as Muslim, for a long time.
It was just a rectangle of cloth, plain and black. But it was heavy with symbolism -- a reminder of her faith, her modesty, her wish that strangers would be attracted by her personality and not her physical beauty.
So what if she worked in a Victoria`s Secret selling cosmetics? Sure, there was a conflict there. But the life of an American Muslim is punctuated with cultural clashes. This one didn`t seem any bigger than most.
Or did it?
The first day Kazak took up the veil, tears were pouring down her face as she drove toward the Somerset Collection.
She pulled over to the side of the road, daubed her eye makeup and prayed.
Please make this an easy transition for me. Please make me strong.
Today, about two and a half years later, Kazak is among tens of thousands of Muslim women in Michigan who wear hijab -- pronounced hee-JAHB -- in public. The practice often is misunderstood by non-Muslims, who may associate it with female oppression. But most hijabis, as women who wear the scarves are called, say that covering their hair was a personal choice. They credit the veils with improving their relationships with people and God.
Here are the stories of three Muslim females in metro Detroit and their experiences with hijabs. They share faith in Islam and belief that publicly identifying themselves as Muslims is more important since Sept. 11.
Wearing hijab ``clarified for me my identity as a Muslim woman,`` says Kazak, who left her part-time job at Victoria`s Secret when her schedule of Oakland University classes changed. Now that she`s graduated, she works full-time as a case manager for refugees at ACCESS, the Arab Community Center for Economic and Social Services in Dearborn.
The scarf she wraps around her head each morning has liberated Kazak from the coquettish games other people play, she says. ``I notice a different level of respect, and I just love that. Self-esteem . . . I just feel so much better about myself, so much more respectable. I feel my personality come out with my scarf.``
She burbles with confidence, happy to demonstrate how she pins the scarf after matching its color to her day`s outfit. ``It`s like a declaration: Hello, I am Muslim,`` says Kazak, 22. She lives with her parents and sister in Bloomfield Hills, driving to work in a car sporting a vanity license and floor mats emblazoned with her nickname, Princess.
Kazak, who is of Palestinian descent, says taking up the veil was ``the most positive decision I have made in my life.``
With the world`s attention focused on Muslims in the wake of the attacks, Kazak says she feels people staring a bit longer at her veil, giving her a wider berth as she passes them on the street or in the mall. Still, she has been lucky. No one has bothered her because she follows the religion that`s also claimed by the killers of thousands of Americans.
Another story
Zaiba Lateef has not been so lucky. Perhaps that`s because she is 15 and immersed in a peer culture where teasing and showing off are huge preoccupations.
The first shove came out of nowhere on Sept. 11, hours after the 5,000 or so students in the adjoining campuses of Plymouth-Canton and Salem high schools had watched the twin towers collapse on television.
Lateef, whose parents immigrated to Michigan from India, had just finished her American Literature class.
Then from the crowd of people filling the hallway came a boy`s voice hissing an expletive, followed by ``terrorist.`` And someone`s shoulder slammed Lateef into the wall of lockers.
``It was such a blackout,`` Lateef recalls. ``I was so confused. I was so scared.`` She turned to see who had pushed her. But it was impossible to tell.
Lateef has worn hijab since she was nine. All girls in fifth grade and up are required to cover their hair at the Crescent School, a private Muslim elementary school in Canton that Lateef attended.
Despite the fact that hijab was part of her school uniform, Lateef says she never felt forced to wear it. ``It was more like a reward`` for being old enough and mature enough, she says.
After the incident in the hallway, some of Lateef`s relatives suggested that perhaps it would be best if the slim, analytical girl stopped wearing hijab for a while. But Lateef wouldn`t hear of it. ``I want to keep wearing hijab to show people that Islam is a true and beautiful religion,`` she says. ``I`m proud to be a Muslim. This is a time when I need to be strong.``
Weeks passed before it happened again. Then, in early October, she was standing in the second floor Spanish hall a few minutes before school was scheduled to start. A heavy shoe kicked her hard in the shin as a boy called out the same insult, laughing.
This time it wasn`t as much of a shock. She turned and made a mental note of the boy`s face, his green nylon ski jacket, and the bright orange fleece jacket worn by the girl who was with him, laughing.
Then Lateef says she saw a friend walking down the hall and broke down in tears. ``I couldn`t even talk,`` she says. ``I couldn`t walk. I just kept crying.``
A week later, she says that she and another friend were walking in a breezeway between two school buildings. A group of boys came up from behind them. One yelled, ``Can I have one of those?`` He reached for Lateef`s hijab. Another put an arm around her friend and grabbed at the bun of hair beneath her veil.
Lateef and her friend ran for an open door, choking back tears. She had trouble breathing. She was scared and angry and sad all at once. She leaned against a wall of lockers, caught her breath and went to her next class with a lump in her throat.
At Lateef`s mosque, it seemed like everyone was talking of the young girl`s troubles. The news eventually reached Haaris Ahmad, executive director of the Council on American Islamic Relations` Michigan office. He decided to intercede among the Lateef family, the school, and the families of the boys.
In the end, the boy in the green jacketapologized for kicking Lateef. Lateef forgave him. School officials agreed to enhance their efforts to teach cultural tolerance, developing what Ahmad calls a model program for other schools. Among the school`s first actions was to encourage all of its students to attend an open house at a nearby mosque for extra credit.
The boy was there with his family. He appeared delighted when a woman wrote his first name in Arabic script, noting that it was the name of an Islamic prophet.
Although wearing hijab in public and while praying is encouraged by Islamic teachings, many Muslim women regard the practice as optional. There was a time, perhaps a decade or so ago, when professional, educated women were less likely to wear hijab than their Muslim sisters who were less educated or whose lives centered more on the home.
In fact, some countries with large Muslim populations such as Turkey have tried to discourage or even forbid women from wearing hijab in an effort to modernize.
In the last 10 or 15 years, however, it has become less unusual in this country and many others around the world to see women like Dr. Razan Kadry wearing hijab as they see patients and consult with other physicians at Detroit Medical Center.
Kadry is a dermatology resident born in Pontiac of Syrian-American parents.
She has no recollection of the exact day, when she was 14, she made the decision to wear hijab. But in retrospect, Kadry sees it as a turning point. ``I was a very timid person,`` she says. ``I was good in school, but I wasn`t stellar.`` Covering her hair gave her the confidence to excel.
``It opened doors of opportunity,`` she says. ``I was able to focus not so much on my appearance and social things but on what I needed to do at school. My grades shot through the roof. Everything fell into place.``
She wound up skipping three grades and entering Oakland University at 15, then graduated from Wayne State`s medical school.
Kadry feels that wearing hijab around the hospital makes it easier for her to do her job.
``People deal with me on a much more professional and friendly level because I veil,`` she explains.
Because she wears hijab -- perhaps also because she is married and a mother -- men treat Kadry, 27, as a comrade, barely noticing her physical appearance.
That camaraderie abruptly faded on Sept. 11 as news of the attacks spread. ``For a moment I felt there was a huge wall around me,`` Kadry says. ``Then I started speaking, saying that the people who did this could not have been real Muslims.``
The mood changed as everyone realized that she was just as shocked and horrified as they were by the attacks.
Her boss went out of his way to speak with her in private, expressing concern for her safety and suggesting that perhaps she might want to remove her hijab until feelings cooled down.
``I told him that was like asking a black person to bleach the color out of their skin,`` Kadry said. ``Now more than ever I have to stay steadfast. I must wear hijab and be a better example.``
#272 Posted by FouadShah on July 21, 2004 11:04:31 am
Over 1,000 People protested outside the French embassy at the French government`s proposed ban on the muslim headscarf in state schools.
Pictures by Adrian Cousins


Pictures by Adrian Cousins


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