Dear Sisters, Meet Maria Sharapova

What I find very curious and very amusing is how lack of evidence in the Koran or related documents is interpreted as support for a certain choice. In statistical inference, this is the equivalent of the fallacy of confirming the null hypothesis. I am sure the Koran does not have anything specific on suicide bombers as well. What about watching bollywood movies ? If the veil is recommended for the prophet`s wives, surely are ordinary women with religious piety wrong to assume that it would be appropriate for them as well ?

Why cannot the inappropriateness of face masks and veils be accepted without reference to said documents ? On its own merits, no less, from a contemporary, rational perspective. Why should engage in a debate about is said or meant or prescribed or proscribed in out-dated docs when the apparent demerits of a particular tradition (be it veiling or circumcision) are plain for all to see ?

Obsession about conforming to medieval arabic social norms seems to contribute to confusion and the backwardness of contemporary muslim societies. Of course this is only simply stating the obvious.

It would be great if the hijabins such as Summaiya undertook efforts to ban the veil. Their efforts, as conservatives, would carry more conviction. Regarding your experiences on how you (Summaiya) were harassed, this simply reflects a society with deep internal contradictions and no acceptable outlets for releasing these energies.

Re: for Faruk: Post no#200 and For Mr.A, Shiraz (at the risk of being ridiculed again... But that’s a chance I’ll take):

Q] Why are you against the veil? Why do u wear the scarf? What exactly does the scarf do for you? Does it make you feel modestly dressed?


Ans] I am against the veil, because of the following reasons:

Firstly, I do not think our religion has prescribed it for Muslim females. Nothing in Islamic History or the Hadees of the Holy Prophet ( P.B.U.H), nor any Quranic Ayat instructs Muslim women to don the veil. Please note the analogy I presented in Post no#171 regarding the wives of the Holy Prophet (P.B.U.H):

The veil was only prescribed for the Holy Prophet Muhammad`s ( P.B.U.H) wives. It was imposed on them possibly because of their position and status as his wives. I have never read any where that the Prophet (P.B.U.H) imposed it on all Muslim women. We are merely asked to cover ourselves modestly.

The wives of the Holy Prophet (SA) were not allowed to remarry after his death. Other Muslim women however do have the right to remarry after their husband`s death. Drawing an analogy, only the wives of the Prophet Muhammad ( P.B.U.H) were asked to enveil themselves. All Muslim women are not ordered to wear a veil. WE are only told to dress modestly. And it is our own choice as how to go about it.””

Further do the note this Quranic Ayats to understand the different treatment of the Holy Prophet`s (P.B.U.H)`s wives and normal Muslim females:

````And (as for the Prophet`s wives) when you ask for anything you want (or need), ask them from behind a hijab (screen), that makes for greater purity of your hearts. (33:53)````

````O wives of the Prophet! You are not like any of the (other) women: If you do fear (God) be not too complaisant of speech, lest one in whose heart is a disease should be moved with desire: but speak with a speech (that is) just. (33:32) ````

Further, here is a lot of disagreement amongst scholars over certain Quranic Ayats in Surah Nuur and Surah Ahzab, laying down the dress code. Almost all interpreters agree that women should not veil their faces and their hands. Anyone who advocated that women should cover all of their bodies, including their faces, could not base his argument on any religious text. If women were to be totally covered, there would have been no need for the ayat addressed to Muslim men: ``Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty.`` (Surah An-Nur, Ayah 30). This view is in support by a saying of the Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H): ``I did not say a thing that is not in harmony with God`s book.`` Allah says: ``O consorts of the Prophet! Ye are not like any of the (other) women.`` (Al-Ahzab, Ayah 53). Thus, it is very clear that God did not want women to measure themselves against the wives of the Prophet, and wear veil like them, and there is no ambiguity whatsoever regarding this ayat.

Secondly, I also think that it (the veil) is not obligatory for Muslim women because during the holy rite of Pilgrimage i.e. Hajj, Muslim women are not supposed to cover their faces. The reason behind this being that since there are hundreds of thousands of people in one place, the probability of getting lost is very high. In that case, it is easier to recognize and find the women if lost if they are not enveiled.
I personally believe that if Muslim females are not asked to enveil themselves in such a great crowd where throngs of people just bang into you, then definitely there is no need to cover your face in every day life as well...

Thirdly, I do not think that the veil is necessary because it damages a female’s confidence in the work place. I may be wrong and this is strictly my own personal thinking. Such a female MAY turn out to be complexed and will face certain difficulties which MAY damage her ability with regards to communication with fellow employees and clients, colleagues and acquaintances. Facial expressions go a long way in making a point clear to another or to indicate pleasure or displeasure with regards to something and anything. A veil hides all facial expressions. This can lead up to misunderstandings as there would no real way to judge what the enveiled female feels or wants and there is no guarantee that she may be vocal about it.

Furthermore, the Qur`an also talks about our clothing as something both to cover our nakedness and serve as an adornment, reflecting the beauty of God`s creation. But, as in the verses above, it is the behavior and attitude that are most important. Regardless of how we dress, we must have faith and taqwa, God consciousness or righteousness:

“”O you Children of Adam! We have bestowed libasan (clothing or raiment) on you to cover your nakedness and as a thing of beauty. But the raiment of righteousness (taqwa), that is the best. Such are the signs of God, that they may receive admonition. (7:26) ””
“”O Children of Adam! Wear your beautiful apparel (zeenah) at every time and place of prayer: eat and drink: but waste not by excess, for God loves not the wasters. (7:31)””

Most Muslims do not view modest dress as an imposition meant to oppress either women or men. Indeed, many women who voluntarily wear hijab actually feel liberated. Now, you will, most certainly ask me how I feel liberated by wearing the hijab i.e . . . . scarf), right?
I am not self righteous. I will not proclaim my piety either. There are times when I don’t wear the scarf as well, but that is only amongst my close family and friends who know me for who I am as a person and who do not base their opinions upon my face and body and the clothes I wear. But for all others, I do wear the head scarf.
I am a bit hesitant in sharing my personal examples, any more, after the bashing I got from certain unnamed people in the previous posts, but then I have taken chances and I am going to take yet another to prove my point. (Please do not send posts showing Ur pity etc. etc. etc. because I do not want it)

If you remember I wrote in one of my posts that I only started to wear the scarf this year. The following incidents took place with me previous to this year, i.e. when I didn’t wear the hijab:

* On a routine trip to Sunday Bazaar with my mother to buy groceries, a man successfully touched me in a place I will not mention. You are wise enough to read between the lines. It is another matter that I turned around and gave a tight slap to that fool, but I felt an utter violation of my privacy and body.

* On the very first concert I attended with my three female friends; all three of us got pinched. Even though, I reported to the security force there and the moron was thrown away from the venue, we didn’t exactly feel on top of the world. We felt an utter violation of our privacy and bodies.

* I live in a posh locality of Karachi, but on a routine visit to the general store, a group of males offered to befriend me negatively. I was extremely angry and didn’t think a minute before giving him a piece of my mind. Yet, on my way to the car, he made quite audible comments about my body. I felt disgusted and an utter violation of…u guessed it. My privacy and my body.

* Once, I had to avail the services of the public transport services. A middle aged man, refused to look anywhere else but at my face. I uttered angry syllables, indicated my anger and discomfort, but that idiotic man didn’t blink a bit. It was only when a gentlemanly man saw it all that the loser was made to board off the bus. Maybe, some of you don’t mind being oogled at, but I do. At that point, I felt totally pathetic. I wanted to turn my face into Dracula and give him the scare of his life and maybe kill him as well. But, that only happens in thoughts. There is a difference in looking at some one and oogling shamelessly. There is a difference in engaging another in respectful conversation and passing sick comments.

* While walking home one fine day from a certain databases class I attended since the chauffeur was nowhere to be found, a young man stopped his car and offered a lift. I politely refused as my house was only a few blocks away and thanked him for his generosity. I started to walk as before when I sensed that that the car was slowly following me. I turned around surprised. The guy nastily accused me of showing tantrums and muttered a bunch of abuses. I started walking fast as no one was in sight. It was my luck, that my chauffeur appeared just in time and I thankfully went home in the safety of my car. It was just my luck. In the absence of any passerby’s, who knows what could have happened.

I am not the only one who has had to go through such ordeals. Ask any female and you would have hundreds and thousands of such examples before you.

Personally, a scarf is not the sole criteria for being modestly dressed. Someone can wear a bikini and wear a head scarf as well, but that won’t make her modestly dressed, will it? But, like I said, it is my personal view. I will not impose it on anyone.

Every society or civilization takes certain time to develop. I am glad to know that some people like Mantolives have learnt to look beyond the bodies of females and helped and supported them in their careers and life. However, this is not true for all people. In many Muslim countries, it is the men and not the women who should change; who should change their perverted attitudes; who should change their view of women as sexual objects; who should learn to give them respect. Until that happens, I will resort to wearing the scarf as such experiences have not happened since I donned it. Maybe a time will come when men would be more educated; when they would give more respect to women; when they would learn to differentiate between civilized appreciation and blatant insults; when they will stop harassing females through assault and battery and treating them as sexual objects; when they would learn to appreciate more than the body of the female and attempt to probe into her brain as well; there would then be no need for a scarf or a veil. But, since it is no where near or probable I will continue to wear the head scarf in front of illiterate and perverted fools who know no better. Like I mentioned before, amongst my close friends and relatives and fiancée I do not wear it because they will not judge me over my body.

However, as I maintained before, a more important question in this discussion is whether individuals, Muslim or non Muslim, should be forced to dress in a certain way.I think in essence secularism is all about choice and freedom. Every society is entitled to establish minimum standards of dress (in the US, one does have limits as well, defining ``indecent exposure`` according to the society`s norms). Nevertheless, even though I am against the veil, but I shall never preach or force one to not wear them. Every one should have the freedom as how they choose to dress. And, it is only this point, which makes me differ with the author and most of other interactors.
The Qur`an says ``There is no compulsion in religion`` (2:256). Those who choose to behave a certain way as a reflection of their belief in God and His message and thus accept the challenges therein are not the same as those who behave to satisfy other people or laws set in place. The freedom and ability to choose to do good make the reward that much greater.
While our faith is manifested in our deeds, only God can judge our piety and righteousness.

The Prophet himself (P.B.U.H)) would not venture to say who, for certain, would reach Paradise. Such knowledge is with God alone such that the judgment of one person regarding another`s religiosity is totally irrelevant.

Why do people have a problem with women wearing whatever they want to? Why should they not be allowed to wear a hijab i.e. a scarf if others can strut around in Goth gear or mini skirts? How come it is okay for any one to dress out of the norm and go their own way and not for Muslim women? Did it ever occur to you that it might be a choice not an order or that they choose to cover up in the same way another choose to wear a skimpy baby doll dress?

{By the way if you don’t know most Arab females dress quite liberally within their abayas, only difference is that they “inspire” their husbands. Have you ever been to Saudia Arabia, Lebanon, U.A.E or Kuwait? Have you ever checked out their haute couture or any local female wear boutique? I don’t think so! }

Muslim women choose for themselves how devout they are and how completely they wish to veil themselves, some even choose not to veil themselves at all- it is a choice in the west and is in many Muslim countries. It is only those countries run by extreme fundamentalists that prohibit western clothing. Shiraz, please, listen to some of the things! Stop assuming that you know our minds would you not be insulted if we, Muslim women made the same assumptions about you. Mr. Shiraz? Y do u assume that all of us are fundamentalists and yearn to blow innocent civilians up? Why are you so biased? Why do you discrimate so much against your “sisters”? Instead of ridiculing us and likening us to animals or suicide bombers etc., take the time to speak to scarf wearing women yourself. There is nothing to be afraid of; we are just like the rest of you. Wearing a scarf does not make us less of a human!

Therefore, discriminating against a woman for dressing in a particular way violates her
freedom to practice her religion, a fundamental right. People like you and the nonMuslim community, particularly the media, needs to get beyond its own narrow one dimensional view of the conservative dress of the Muslim woman as a sign of oppression and fundamentalism. It is a choice that Muslim women make, perhaps not the same as that of other women, but equally valid. Ultimately, what really matters is the attitude, behavior and demeanor of the person in question.

Mr. Shiraz, among Muslims, the division and intolerance expressed regarding women`s dress is one factor that impedes our growth and development as a meaningful presence in the world today. All Muslims struggle with matters of faith, identity, and community. With the pressing issues facing the Ummah today such as poverty, illiteracy, violence, warfare and other ills, we must ask ourselves if we want to be consumed and paralyzed by the issue of women`s dress. The veil is the least of our worries. Being stoned for looking at another man, female circumcision, not being allowed an education is far worse than the clothing they wear. Placing the burden primarily on women without calling for the accountability of men to control themselves and their sexual appetites is in violation of the spirit of the Qur`an which is about self-control and self-restraint.

In addition, the extremely negative attitudes which consider women who do not cover as somehow unchaste are most egregious and unjustifiable. Wrongful accusations against a woman`s honor, further, can not be tolerated at all, as well. Among many Muslims today, hijab is an omen equated with piety, both by those who cover their hair and those who do not. Unfortunately, too many assume that a woman who covers must naturally be more religious or conservative that one who does not. This generates expectations and pressure on Muslim women in hijab, whose behavior is held to different standards, perhaps undesired on the part of the woman. On the other hand, according to popular opinion, the Muslim woman who does not cover her hair (even if she is otherwise dressed modestly) has not quite arrived at the perceived goal of all righteous believing women. The scarf, an article of clothing, has sadly become a litmus test for a Muslim woman`s faith and devotion to God. This is the thinking of illiterate, narrow-minded fundamentalists. I don’t advocate such attitude myself and I personally think that neither does Faiza Hussain or Fiz. I think we are all aware of many corrupt females who indulge in corrupt activities in the cloak of the veil and scarf as well. Similarly, I know many non scarf wearing or enveiled females on whose honesty and piety I can testify.

Mr. Shiraz, Let us try to restore the dignity to the Muslim woman by way of educational and some legal reforms. The modernist blueprint of women`s Islamic rights eventually includes the right to work, vote, and stand for election, - that is, full participation in public life.

In the matter of hijab, the conscience of an honest, sincere believer alone can be the true judge, as has been said by the Noble Prophet (P.B.U.H): ``Ask for the verdict of your conscience and discard what pricks it.``

Islam cannot be properly followed without knowledge. It is a rational law, and to follow it rightly, one needs to exercise reason and understanding at every step.

It is amazing how Huma Mir has resurfaced days after lying about me... this is brilliant stuff... Dear Ms/Mrs Mir you claimed that I had abused you personally in post 144 ... I quoted the one or two posts I ever addressed to you in my life... and nothing therein contained abuse. So why don`t you show where I cursed at you and made you a target of personal attacks...


You wrote in post 144 :

He has made personal attacks on me

The only posts I ever addressed to you were on the Jamali Board:

Post 1:http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00003704&channel=civic%20center&order=0&start=80&end=89&page=9&chapter=1#115

#115 by Mantolives on June 28, 2004 10:31pm PT -- 00179398
Huma Mir...

I lived in the US for four years till 2002 for my College Education ... I didn`t find the discrimination people like you keep harping on about. Nor was I target of any hate crimes... If you don`t act suspicious ... I don`t see why you would be accused of anything. To take this debate into tangents like you and your friend have done is indicative of a diseased mentality. Don`t be naive... when we talk of the Mullah we talk of the MMA and other religious parties who are running amok in Pakistan.

Your friend malik99, to whose defense you have leapt like a desperate mother, has no idea what he is talking about... to him Mullahs are innocent little creatures marching to the Parliament house, driving in their little pajeros... and tilling their lands...

This is a blatantly untrue picture deliberately concocted to take the mullahs off the hook. Mullahs extremely organized, militant and fanatical bunch... they just don`t walk up to the parliament... they burn things on the way.... they are actively involved in Murders, killing, and arson outside the assembly... and they are actively involved in sabotaging progressive legislation within it.


They have sold themselves again and again... to the US, to Ziaul Haq... and to Musharraf...

Why do you think Musharraf prevailed over the democratic norms and procedures to have Mullah Fazlu elected as the opposition leader in the assembly?



If ARMY is a curse for Pakistan... it is because it is actively supported in becoming this curse by none other than the Mullahs...


Post 2:http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00003704&channel=civic%20center&start=50&end=59&page=6&chapter=1&order=0#140

#140 by Mantolives on June 29, 2004 2:53pm PT -- 00179501

Huma Mir...

I have neither the inclination nor the time to continue this debate... especially when it will now become personal with insults flying all over... now that Khamkhwa is joining in. l I can say is that you chaps have deliberately drawn this tangent... I don`t care about American Muslims ... or their travails beyond my own family that lives there... and thankfuly none of them have ever felt the burden of the patriot act... mashallah all of them are doing very well... and I wish them all the best.


I already explained in my post what I mean by Mullahs... but in any event I have no respect for people who sell Islam professionally... as a Muslim it is my religious belief that Islam does not allow for any clergy... and very existence of the Mullah is aberration. These Mullahs are disgusting creatures whose very existence is the anti-thesis of the ideology of Islam. I hate the Mullahs because I am an extremely intolerant Muslim... so there... now you know of my bigotry. I am proud of it.


As my hero (I am sure you all know who that is by now) said once `Every Muslim is his own priest` ... His favorite phrase for the Mullahs was `These Mad Mullahs...`

I agree! Damn these Mad Mullahs...


Enough said...


-YLH


Please show me where I have `made personal insults on you` ...

I do want an answer and not more of the same lies and retreat... lies and retreat...



Malik99/escapist etc...

Most people on chowk know that people I named are actually one or two people posting under the same nick.... since most of you choose to be anonymous... I can`t trust you people...


Faiza Hussain...

That foot must really be tasting bad now...


-YLH

Hello Warpster ji

Thanks for getting the name right, it is indeed Hussain and not Hassan. Anyhow, regarding your statement, ``You cant handle it if someone says that they they think you are ``hot`` ? You are disturbed by appreciation ? You think that people who appreciate beauty and sexiness are sick ?`` No its not that I cant handle appreciation of beauty, I find it offensive when any woman, veiled or unveiled, is treated like a piece of meat and not a human. There is a vast difference between connotative and denotative meanings. The word ``hot`` is not something a person who wants to uphold the custom of ``chivalry`` would use to express appreciation of a woman. There are more suitable terms for this used by gentlemen such as beautiful, nice, etc. These words such as ``hot,`` tight larki, kia maal hai are all quite demeaning to women and this is not how they would like to be praised for their beauty. Just like it is ok to call a man a bachelor, but most single women do mind when they are referred to as maiden. Hence, the difference between direct and implied meanings.

Huma_mir Sahiba
Hope you are well. Thank you for the congrats and if you insist, then I guess you are right; you are a keen observant:)

Hello Rozaiba Sahib
Hope you are doing well. About my posting of Mr. Shiraz`s pic...How is it ``downright low?`` Mr. Shiraz seems pretty covered with clothing and looks perfectly fine to me. I am not so sure why you and Mantolives sahib say that I have ``defamed his character`` by posting his pic up there. I mean if you guys are judging his character by how he looks in the pic,then I must say that is quite superficial. As for the contents of the glass that someone pointed out to on unplugged, it could just be cranberry juice mixed with apple juice. I do that all the time and it has the same hue. Not so sure why all of a sudden people are getting these wrong ideas about his character based on his picture.
And as always, good luck with everything.

Hello Mr. Shiraz
You wrote, ``Respect is not earned by physically or verbally attacking your foes.`` I agree with your statement 100% but is respect earned by equating women with animals like you did in your post #175?

shiraz

--
If anything those who are riding the fence will pick sides and we will see you to the end and deliver you of your misery so you may meet the one you worship in the most expeditious manner.
--

is this what you actually meant to say? It would be interpreted as a veiled threat (fatwa-like).

Let us try to elevate the level of discussion here. Clearly there is a camp that feels that the veil is ok and that it is a woman`s choice. In practice they are wearing the hijab which is a very visible facial attire (say like a hat or turban) but it is quite far from the veil, which is mask-like and evil.

Let us be honest here. If there were no correlation between fundamentalism and attire, I dont think we should cares two hoots about what people want to wear (however, the veil is objectionable no matter what; it is dehumanizing and offensive to the perceiver).

But the fact of the matter is that such attire correlates with a whole package of fundamentalist attitudes, beliefs and behaviors. That is the crux of the matter. If one were in a predominantly muslim country (note: I did not use the word islamic) where women enjoyed equal rights and where attire only correlated with spirituality or what have you, I dont believe anyone would grudge people their choice of making fashion statements. But the use of the hijab, if anything, has risen with the spread of islamic fundamentalism and therefore is a marker for a rather retrogressive world-view. Until then, wearers of such attire will also be the targets of stereotyping, even though they may have very divergent beliefs and values from the stereotype.

To a large extent, the attitudes of women in hijab is culture specific. In SE Asia, for example, women in hijab do all kinds of jobs and, in my stay there, I had a positive stereotype of female students in hijab (as they didnt socialize they spent more time studying). So it is possible to wear a hijab and be charming, articulate and even flirty. It is very interesting to watch the combination of hijab, lipstick and body hugging jeans and eye-popping t-shirts! (admittedly such combinations are the exception) Clearly something else was at work here.

So shiraz: can u clarify whether ur objection is only to the dress qua dress or whether it is based on something more?

``By supporting Islamic fundamentalism you are traitors to Pakistan and to her allies (the US, Europe, India and Israel) ``


Yeah man Pakistan and Israel are the best allies, have u seen the granduer israeli embassy in ISLAM-abad? .....but wait, that does not exist, hmmmm....no i think I must be mistaken. Hey Shiraz could you please tell me where the Israeli embassy is located in ISLAM-abad?

Thanks man!
Nice pic man, are u always like that?

http://www.freewaywatch.org/Drunk_Driving_Pictures3.html
....check out these pics,! (ok some of them are very gross!)

More people are killed by the Roh-Afza that Mullah Arthur likes to drink than by suicide bombers each year (1:10,000 -yeah im making up the numbers, intelligent guess). How about a Jihad against drinking, whaddaya think Mullawna sahab?

The Way Muslim Women Demand Respect

There a few veiled women and sympathizers of the institution of veiling who feel that they can demand respect for veiling by personal attacks, abuse and posting my picture on their ilogs?

Respect is not earned by terrorizing your foes. Respect is not earned by physically or verbally attacking your foes. You will not be respected simply because you post my picture. It will at most make me uncomfortable but it will only torpedo your own warped Islamic ``case``.

I see a lot of you twisting and turning my words around. Don`t you see that its the best compliment and imitation is the highest form of flattery?

If anything you have shown that Muslim women can be just as ruthless and vicious as their male counterparts. And it leads me to the conclusion yet again that you guys truly deserve each other.

It does not make women like you irredeemable. So then why should we try to end the institution of veiling ? Because it is veiling and Islamic fundamentalism that is encouraging such base behaviour in you. Because Islam makes you sub human you are behaving like tramps and rogues.

Your vicious disregard of all human norms only strengthens the resolve of those of us who have vowed to overthrow the rule of ancient Arab, tribal and religious customs.

I know it has strengthened MY resolve. If anything those who are riding the fence will pick sides and we will see you to the end and deliver you of your misery so you may meet the one you worship in the most expeditious manner. Incidentally by your behaviour the one you worship seems nothing less than diabolical.

In this struggle of freedom against the evil of Islamic fundamentalism, Pakistan has already chosen the side of good. By supporting Islamic fundamentalism you are traitors to Pakistan and to her allies (the US, Europe, India and Israel) and you are an affront to the peaceful moderate citizens of the world. Stop betraying your own.

It could be that your parents and your surroundings are twisted but that is no excuse. But your behaviour is a reflection on your parents and your upbringing as illustrated below :



Mothers who would rather see their children dead produce children who behave in the most unlady like manner as most of you have demonstrated today.

You must ask yourselves, what sort of parents, relatives would encourage such behavior? You must turn the eye of criticism and reason and questioning towards your most cherished beliefs and see if what you were born into was not a deception. Put your most cherished beliefs to the test. Seek and you will find the possibility of a better truth.

As for the rest of the world, they see women like this suicide bomber:



and then they see you and guess what they are thinking? Budding suicide bomber?

I urge you to DIFFERENTIATE your self from women like above. There is a solid connection between Islamic zeal and fanatical destructive violence.

Just because you are too close to see it or are too myopic or suffering from a blind spot doesn`t mean others cannot see it. Others see this primitive, deplorable miserable fundamentalism and they laugh and they cry and they try to scream to you of the perils ahead but like Zombies and cultic followers you march on towards your doom, dragging a few helpless and innocent people with you. Do you not see that this is how you will drive yourselves to extinction?

If you cannot deal with modernity do not destroy yourself and attack others around you, open your minds and see the world and learn from those who have gone through similar things and triumphed to create the western civilization.

Whoa there!!

Faiza, this seems unlike you- ie the Faiza of the countless bounties! Posting a pic without someone`s permission in the context of an obvious difference of opinion- heated difference of opinion- is down right low.

I`m sure the point could have been made with the use of words. You`re creative with words- so why resort to such tactics?

A.Shiraz:
This piece sounded rather i-logish. It could have been better had the conclusion not been painted in `black and white` and a more meaningful goal been projected rather than making it sound like a personal teenage preference. However, I agree with your SWIPING rejection of how women are treated here. One should not entertain even a hint of `accepting` discrimination as it`s an age old cherished custom. I say this in the context of a Pathan man who wanted to work as a guard at my home. His condition for working was:

(translation):
(``I want the walls of this part of your house raised because my women folks will live with me. My women will never leave these walls. If they get sick, they will not be going to the doctor. When they die, I`ll bury them here in this very spot.``)

He said all this with a beaming smile.

Faiza - First of all congratulations!!!! Now, I think I deserve some credit for...... you know what ;)

Secondly, as they say `a picture is worth a thousand words`. The picture you have put is worth the words on this whole board. I am so glad to have now really met Mr. Shiraz. And by the way, he does seem to be on the moon. But its not a rocket, but a therapist, that would bring him back to earth.

Mantolives Sahib - you seem to have asked me something. Sorry, i have been away from Chowk. Without going through all your posts, could you tell me what is it that I am supposed to respond to? Thanks.

Urstruly - appreciate your comments. By the way, i am sorry I am not knowledgeable enough to participate in the `qadiyani` discussion on the other board. But I admire your knowledge and the tenacity with which you have gotten yuor point across.

Malik99 - you and your `bullet point analysis` :) but the ``lessons learned`` are right on the mark. And if Mr. Shiraz is as open minded as he claims to be, he will now have a new found respect for women, all women - hijabis and non-hijabis.

Atif1 - sorry to see you get bumped. would have loved to read your posts.

I didnt check this thread for a while and apparently a lot has happened.

Ms. Fazia hassan appears to have serious hangups. What is so wrong about appreciating beauty whether it is in nature or other people ? Must we be blind ? And it can be beauty of any kind, in physique, personality or whatever. You cant handle it if someone says that they they think you are ``hot`` ? You are disturbed by appreciation ? You think that people who appreciate beauty and sexiness are sick ? And far from causing untold ills, masturbation (wanking as you so colorfully named it) reduces the chances of prostate cancer. You may wish to pass this piece of evidence to your male friend(s) for guiltfree wanking. And while I havent seen relevant research, more enlightened women also engage in such practices with assorted aids, presumably to their betterment.

And it is not wrong to express disdain for people who cover themselves completely, making no facial identification possible. In case you havent heard, we humans (among other primates) have very special (brain) networks to detect faces. Such capabilities would never have evolved had our ancestors for some weird reason decided that seeing people was evil.

sometimes one has to take a clear stand. the veil is an evil anachronism in this day and age. And we must be grateful for Shiraz for taking a clear position on this and expressing it in his casual and open way.

And yes: your posting his pic without his permission is a violation of privacy. The fact that he turns to have a pretty sexy look and would have no problems with women is besides the point. All your justifications are, in the end, so much of hot air.

of course, I mean Ms. Faiza Hussain. Apologies to anyone else by the name that i used in my last post here.

Mantolives # 222 - you wrote ``Then I came across people like Atif1, Escapist, Malik99, and Huma Mir... if they could take down a nice old man like Dost Mittar, what of my wife``

A question for chowkies: How can you tell Mantolives is lying? Answer: Because he is talking.

I CHALLENGE you to show me a SINGLE post where i attempted to ``take down`` Dost Mittar. I have rarely, if ever, interacted with DM. And I have never ever mentioned your wife. Some of us do know something about honoring people`s wives - even if we don`t share their views. We don`t walk around telling our friends` wives ``jee woman, you look HOTTTT!!!``. What makes it so downright disgusting is that such comment is uttered in an unabashed manner while her husband and three thousand people look on.

I am waiting for your response on my CHALLENGE!!! If I don`t get a response from you with evidence, I will issue you a certificate making you the un-contested King of Lies on chowk.

MY BET WITH CHOKIES: Mantolives will comeback with a hyperbole response which will have no relevance to my challenge. It will be about something OTHER than dost mittar ``take down`` episode. And he will not list a SINGLE reference from me regarding his wife. Just watch.

Hello Malik Sahib
Thanks for your support. You wrote to Mr. Shiraz, ``Again, as aptly demonstrated by Faiza, she not only talked back, she also walked all over you - better than Sharapova did over her opponent.`` Although I enjoy ``walking,`` I think some people think it was more of a trampling act than just walking. As far as his physical looks are concerned, I dont like to make comments about peoples` looks. I am only interested in their actions and more so reactions. Either way, I have no regrets for doing what I did.

Hello Mantolives Sahib
Oh I fell short of an argument? Great conclusion, did you by any chance read any of the posts Mr. Shiraz had been putting up such as #175, 195, etc? Yes if you conisder those valid argumetns, then the reason I posted his pic must seem invalid to you. As to your wife`s pic, yes its your decision whether you want to keep it or remove it; I was just wondering if it came about due to Mr. Shiraz. If you insist it didnt, then ok:) (*keeping my fingers crossed that you havent made this into an ego issue*) And once again, please be sure that I am in no way making any personal attacks towards your wife. She seems to be a wonderful person who seemed to have made a difference while she was in the States and continues to do so in Pakistan. As I said before, I hope she succeeds in all walks of life, ameen.
You wrote, ``As for the word `hot`... I am certainly not going to hunt down Mr. Shiraz... if that makes me less of a man than your fiancee... I am still happy.`` Where in my post (``And if you still dont agree with what I have said, then I have never seen a man more tolerant than yourself who finds nothing disturbing about another male calling his wife ``hot.``) do you see me calling you ``less of a man?`` Mantolives sahib, is that guilty conscience I am sensing? I was praising your tolerance and here you are trying to put words in my mouth. You wrote, ``As for your repeated appeals to some kind of primitive sense of tribal honor and dignity... I must say that Shiraz sounds increasingly convincing ...`` Where did I mention anything about tribal honor. All i asked was whether it was out of dignity (your own self respect as well as respect for your wife) that you removed her pic? And does this mean Mr. Shiraz didnt sound too convincing until you assumed I was bringing in ``primitive sense of tribal honor.`` Since your assumption is wrong, how convincing do you find Mr. Shiraz now?

Hello Shiraz Sahib
I didnt put up your pic so people could comment about whether you are photogenic or not. I have no interest in how you look, for all I know you look like all other humans, got a head, limbs, body, etc. I posted your pic because you kept on insisting that veiling is a crime and I felt like for a man of your cause and ideology, a picture is indeed worth a thousand words and perhaps it might inspire some of us oppressed women to come out and extend a hand of friendship to you in the hope of liberation. You preach the uncovering of women, why not uncover yourself first and let the Chowkies have the first glance? As for the concerns of your safety, sorry if that seems to be threatened by your pic being posted but I think you have made it so far in life and will continue to do so, therefore, please dont get paranoid about your safety for it might become a distraction in your committment to liberation of muslim women. I am glad you are not as offended as Mantolives sahib is on your behalf since I have put up your picture.
If you have so much ``love`` for your sisters, then why were you ridiculing women in some of your posts. If you are going to refer to your posts as satire, then I must say it is in very bad taste and there is a line between satire and plain out ridicule and you seemed to have crossed that line. You wrote, ``an end to the disease that is Islam,`` well there are approximately 1.3 billion muslims in the world, so I guess you will have to keep your fingers crossed for eternity before you see the end of it. And do keep on [chuckling] but know that its not over till the fat lady sings, and while you ``chuckle`` I will have the last LAUGH:) Take care
Faiza Hussain

YLH.

Escapist, Malik99, and Huma Mir... if they could take down a nice old man like Dost Mittar...

Oh we all did that? :)

And as far as the tribal honor is concerned..

kisi nay khoob kaha hai..

Unhain haya nahee aati
inhain ghussa nahee aata

to kashti kaisey na sakoon say chalai. :)

Faizahussain...

You are continuously pressing a useless point...

I have had many heated arguments but they were usually with people with some honor ... At the very least... My wife has a certain following as a writer on this site and an independent status of me... so I didn`t fear any backlash against her... even the brigands of the old school like Urstruly would not dare to make her a target of humiliation...

Then I came across people like Atif1, Escapist, Malik99, and Huma Mir... if they could take down a nice old man like Dost Mittar, what of my wife... naturally I was afraid of retaliation since I had given them a taste of their own medicine... In any event... I had been thinking of replacing the picture with a picture of one of my heroes... the man from Turkey... Either way... removing the picture is my decision and none of your business... but your abuse of Mr. Shiraz`s privacy was dead wrong.


As for your repeated appeals to some kind of primitive sense of tribal honor and dignity... I must say that Shiraz sounds increasingly convincing ...

-YLH