What’s the Taj Mahal like from the inside? And Other Stories

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nikkki darling

i know the southies are moral and clean and something else good that i forget, but they are really boring mostly. punju on the other hand may stab you in the back, but you have had a great time hanging around.

so hitch up your vetti and scoot. you are boring.

SSdillon, niki7777, Stuka

http://www.blonnet.com/2003/08/12/stories/2003081200110900.htm
The link provides per capita data as of Aug 2003. If any one has later data, please provide the link.
Punjab is still #1 (Goa is not in the list), although few other states are catching up. Total economic output of some more populous states is ofcourse higher than Punjab but that hardly makes them more prosperous. By that logic, India is a better place to live than Sweden since a billion Indians have higher GNP.

Re: # 63 by nikki7777

As a south Indian who has lived all over India (Delhi, West Bengal, Bangalore, Kerala) please let me ask you to take your mindless southie fascism away. South Indians can be amongst the most chauvinistic, morally superior, casteist, hidebound, supercilious, sex-obsessed pr!ck$ in the country. Just like some North Indians.

For every ``barbarian`` punjabi, I can point out a hidebound wifebeating Kamma... and vice versa. No point in talking about this $h!t.

why not try your hand at friendship and understanding ? you might like it...

cheers
Aniruddha Shankar

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ssdhillon

This Nikki is a khota, don`t waste your time on him.

Since we are humoring each other … here are some thoughts on the faithful members of the ummah …

(sorry folks, some of the content is a bit racy … so beware ….
Summaiya ji ….. your point is fully appreciated … but I plead an exception here … as I am a self-proclaimed Muslim … and should be allowed to take a few jibes at my brothers as the need arises … here we go ... ) ...

The lighter (darker?) side of a Muslim …

- has read the entire Quran 17 times … in a language he does not understand

- believes if it weren’t for that tramp, we’d all be living in paradise … this is why Allah has cursed women with the pain of childbirth

- thinks beating kids for missing tahajjud is an acceptable expression of fatherly faith … forced starvation may follow for better results …

- decided in favor of ‘Fahrenheit 9/11’ over the regular porn session on a satruday afternoon … (although couldn’t help masterbating at the sight of Michael Moore’s fat ass)

- character assassination of Jinnah on grounds of unIslamic behavior has not entirely lost its appeal

- news about molestation of choir boys … reminds him why he wanted to become a hafiz in the first place …

- scientific facts: knows when to quote these … and knows when to avoid these … when preaching Islam to infidels

- doesn’t admit it, but is convinced that shagging Dianne Kruger is worth the punishment in the hereafter

- is often seen google-searching under “Jewish conspiracies” when debating the Palestine issue via e-mail with a Jew in Hungary

- female circumcision … not an issue … Islam accepts cultural differences

- ultimate fantasy: John Ashcroft gets busted while getting a blowjob from a downtown prostitute in south d.c. (… preferably before the November election)

- when boarding the PIA flight at JFK, is heard arguing loudly with the ground crew that lotta should not count as a carry-on item

- thinks that divulging details of his gall bladder surgery is a way to impress the nau jawan airhostess with his HMO plan

- smells bad, looks untidy … but insists his personal hygiene is in line with sunnah, and therefore more than adequate

and finally …

- cannot shake off this one thought … 70 virgins … all at once … has already picked out what they would look like (if you know what I mean …)

nikki7777. #57

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What are you dumb or something. One guy getting beaten in NY will somehow lead to all
sikhs being thrown out of US. What makes you sikhs will be thrown out and tamilians like you will be kept. Man, you are really stupid. The guy was beaten because the attackers probably thought he was muslim wearing a taliban style turban. In any case if they are beating up sikhs you are probably not in their good books either. As for Canada Sikh, there are doing pretty well. Just look at the last election results.

``they conveniently forget the millions of hindu punjabis who are equally wealthy
and have more of their men in the army, and live in punjab``


There are more sikhs than punjabi hindus in the army. I am not saying that
Hindu Punjabis have not made a contribution to the army but the fact is very few hindus join the army in punjab as non-officers. There are regiments called Sikh and Sikh LI. Even the Punjab regiment has very few Hindu punjabis. THe Hindus in the regiment are from Haryana(Jats) and Himachal(Dogras). Do you have any evidence even remotely supporting your claims.

As for Punjab being the richest state....apart from GOA it has the highest per capita income according to the latest census. Can you provide any evidence about Punjab not being the richest state. Let me tell you it is way more prosperous that Tamil Nadu where you come from. I guess like the rest of you posts you just write what you want to write irrespective of the facts.

#58 by Summaiya on July 22, 2004 7:34am PT
``I believe ir rather i believed is that this site is for individuals across borders, who want to go beyond the norm i.e . one`s who want to create a difference; ``..


(groans..) not again.. please stop these demands for civility

I believe ir rather i believed is that this site is for individuals across borders, who want to go beyond the norm i.e . one`s who want to create a difference; One`s who would discuss and argue and come woth solutions or in certain cases just agree to disagree. I believe, (believed) that most of the interactors are educated and civilised and know a bit about manners, ethics and morals.

However, all i read from the posts nowadays is some one either ridiculing one`s religion, their culture, their personality, their race, creed etc. This is really a sad state!

If one does not agree with another, at least learn to respect their views or opinions without attacking their religion or personality etc.

Kind regards!

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Jang

Had you included #7, I would have considered turning into sikh (shuddering with a feeling of cooties crawling all over my body):

7. Eating sikh children`s livers after stir frying them.

That is what I read on a Sikh website. I sit true? Are sikhs still so scared of Muslims?

urstruly
``I don`t think we are going to convert into Sikhs just because Guru sahib said something cute at high noon, would you? ``

heh heh.. how about becoming sikh if

1. a sword is held to your head and a choice of becoming a sikh is offered.
2. a special tax is imposed on you for not wearing a turban (beard not sufficient)
3. you are not allowed to hold any office, so all avenues of political advancements are unavailable.
4. you are called a kafuck and all around you look are you with a spectrum of sentiment from suspicion to hatred hatred.
5. your womenfolk are viewed as potential war booty.

Sattar and several others.

Please don`t take me wrong I love sikhs and respect their religion etc. So here is a joke just to cheer things up:

A sikh riding his horse, was passing through a mango grove. He couldn`t help but grab a nice plump mango hanging from a branch above. Unfortunately, the mango was attached too strongly to the branch and sikh couldn`t break it. meanwhile the horse slid from under him, leaving him hanging with the mango. At that very instant the grove watchman happened to come there with his fierce club. He asked the sikh to expalin what the hell he was doing hanging with a mango. The sikh said `Oh I just fell down from my horse`.

Rohit,

Nice read, am glad you enjoyed Pakistan, hope your experencies encourage more Indians to come to Pakistan and see the country and its people for themselves. Only then slowly will peoples stereotypes and prejudices go.

Kaurasach, Urstruly

Baba Nanak is seen by many Punjabi Muslim people as a saint and is revered as such. His teachings are respected becasue they apply to anyone of any faith without you having to leave the fold of your religion. I went to Nankana Sahib and visited the Gurdwara there, more Muslim ppl visit there than Sikh, the only time non Sikhs are not allowed is during the Yatras simply because there are too many ppl.

The Sevakdar was really nice he allowed me to take pictures, and explained many things about Sikhism. The Gurdwara is gorgeous and still very well maintained, and has many acres of holdings. The Sevakdar was Pakistani and educated in Pakistan so he could explain about his beliefs in a way which other Pakistani ppl could understand and grasp, using Islamic terminology and drawing many analogies to Muslim rituals, allowing my relatives to understand the concept of things like PaTh etc.

Truly an enlightening and positive experience, and big respect to the sevakdar for the way he explained and introduced his faith removing many misconceptions and stereotypes. I have a lot of respect for the Sikh teachings and faith, and sayings of the Gurus who fought against tyrannical Moghul emperors.

From what the Sevakdar told me about the Sikh faith, and my observation of Sikh ppl, I can say that many Sikh ppl just like Muslims, Hindus and Christians have come away from the true teachings and practices of their faith.

sattar,

The Hotel California bit was too much, njoyed it thoroughly :-)

BTW, is hamidm your other name

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#42 by Urstruly on July 20, 2004 1:24pm PT

[I don`t think we are going to convert into Sikhs just because Guru sahib said something cute at high noon, would you?]

``Bandar kya jaane adrak ka swaad``.

#46 by nikki7777

````Yeah, sikhs practice their religion by lying about persecution in India to gain asylum in the western world, break the law by arranging fake marriages to stay in the UK or US`````

I dont see the link between these two...

```` speak of themselves as warriors but end up doing menial jobs such as pumping gas, driving cabs and cleaning toilets for the white man....``````

That they have been a warrior class defending India (atleast attempting to) against the Islamic invasions is a fact. Do you have any evidence against it?

Also, doing menial jobs in the west is a honest attempt to make a living. And it would be immature to form your opinions about a race/class of people by just looking at their unskilled labour. A lot more sikhs are prosperous, highly educated than other ethnic groups in India or the rest of Sub-Continent.


```` are these some of the things the ``gurus`` taught to the original faithful that is being passed down to the generations???......AAH!..the beauty and attraction of sikhism.....!!!....better your life people....````

Do you know anything about what the ``gurus`` taught their followers? If so, please enlighten us. We will be very interested.

Thanks,
Avkrishna

Guru Nanak was a great Saint, and Sikhs are a noble people. Ignorant fools who speak ill of a Saint only harm themselves. you are too blind to see His greatness, your own loss.

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Urstruly,

Baba Nanak understood Islam better than you ever will. He was a monotheist who preached love for one’s fellow beings and devotion to the Almighty. You may not know this … but his “chola” had Quranic verses written on it. I have photographs of this “chola” that visibly show this. These photographs were taken by some Ahmadi-Muslims when they visited the tomb of Baba Nanak.

The rift between Muslims and Sikhs was a product of political struggle. Baba Nanak never preached hatred for others. Neither does Islam.

Ahmadi-Muslims and Sikhs communities have shared mutual fondness over the years. I have setup Islamic information booths at Sikh events in the bay area (nor cal) … where I met several Sikhs who know of Ahmadis and Qadian and a few have even attended the annual Ahmadi jalsaa in Qadian. I have found these folks to be simple, humble, and loving … even at high noon …

So dude … don’t let your political associations color your views … or you’ll continue to stumble. Learn to appreciate good when you see it … without getting caught up in who turns which way when praying.


[As for me converting to Sikhism … Sahib … I may be awarded death for apostasy … you know, I am still considered a Muslim by some misguided momins in the land of the farangs …]

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Sattar

I don`t think we are going to convert into Sikhs just because Guru sahib said something cute at high noon, would you?

Kaurasach ... (#39):

... well said. Its an account worth repeating a thousand times ...

... based on what little I know of Baba Nanak Sahib ... I say, hats off to him. He was one who set about looking for God ... and seemingly found Him among the people. What a guy ...

... now, if only the ummah could get off their high horse of righteousness ... and learn from Baba Nanak! While they calim to be in posession of the house of god ... in mecca ... they are dumber than door-knobs ... as seen all over the world ...

Ok … this is hilarious …

Urstruly (#20) … to Dalit … “ …please study the religion of Islam with an open mind and open heart - it has never hurt anybody. You will still have the choice to go back to your old religion … “

… nah nah … Sahib … this is a sly way of conning an unsuspecting Hindu …

If Mr. Dalit is caught ... in the land of momins ... with a Quran in his possession … he’ll be accused of “posing as a Muslim” … in which case, he’ll have two choices: 1) Accept jail time for the crime of “posing as a Muslim” … or … 2) Claim to be a Muslim … in which case, if he leaves Islam, he’ll be hanged from the nearest mango tree for the sin of apostasy …


… Urstruly’s Islam is a bit like Hotel California … you may check out, but you can never leave (alive, that is) …

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Dear several people,

My job was to point you into the right direction. Other than that there is no compulsion in our religion. The true guidance is from Allah alone. If He wishes He will change your heart in just a moment and if He doesn`t wish no amount of polemic argument will change your thinking. Take for example, Baba Guru Nanak; he lived in Mecca and Medina for several years to do an in depth study of Islam and yet Allah did not wish him guidence. So look what he (guru) has turned a good number of humanity into. Sikhs.

`Islam is the only religion on this planet that mandates equality not only among human beings but nations as well.`

This statement is incorrect. Islam has given clear distinctions between believer and non-believer. Non- believer is discriminated against in every sphere.

Or may be according to Islam and those who follow Islam, non-believer is not a human being. In that case, one can make a claim like the one quoted above.

Regards

re: #20 by Urstruly
``So you have a choice - please study the religion of Islam with an open mind and open heart - it has never hurt anybody.``
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha
....
ROTFL
Man,
You are something.
Can u tell me where the Twin Towers are right now?
They used to stand majestically in Manhatten until they were brought down by your co-religionists. All this in the name of Islam and Jehad!
But there is something that might interest our Dalit friend. Jehad and 72 hoors!! Tut, tut. Mullah Sahib, won`t u tell our good Dalit friend that he can get 72 virgins in heaven if he becomes a muslim and joins Jehad. That will be tempting for him. Right now, i see him vacillating between Buddhism and Islam.
Sridhar

re:#26 by Dalit
If u do not like what u are, u can choose any religion. Many Dalits are becoming Buddhists or Islam. As i already said, India gives religous freedom for individual conversions. The 800 million odd Hindus in India will not miss u if u convert.
But, seriously, what is the point in posting something that we already know.
Sridhar

urstruly, thanks, but i can`t be a brother, a sister maybe?? anyway, this is barachota talking to himself-this is worse than poor maligned fosa.
and no, i wouldn`t hug any unknown man, thanks, even we have our limits!but i have had college friends over who are dalits at my place, and i never gave it thought till now.

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A wonderful read. glad to know that some people are willing to look beyond the norm.
I think that the Indian and Pakistani chowkies who like to quarrel all the time should learn a bit from the respected author.

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Kaurasach

I think the easiest thing in the world is to through mud on others; doesn`t cost you a dime. If your heart is so soft for the plight of people, then show me by wiping off the tears from this Dalit`s eyes - hug him to your bossom and call him your brother? Can you do that? I don`t think so - a hindu has to be a god or mahatama to do that - you are neither.

Mr. D

My brother, I know you don`t like to be called by this word but you have to tell me how to address you. Until then I will call you my brother. So you ask whether Muslims are better in India? My bro all you have to do is to walk into a mosque and see it with your own eyes.

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While I agree that the dalit issue is one of extreme importance and has been ignored too often, I fail to see what relevance it has to the article above.

NB

We did fairly well. Of the three teams taking part, two of them made it to the quarter finals and one till the semi`s. The Best Speaker prize (based on cumulative marks in the 5 preliminary rounds) went to a student from our college. We were the only Indian University which managed to get visas....that too at the last moment.

Urstruly
Are Muslims any better in India?


We, the other people By K.G. KANNABIRAN- Hindu June 8, 2001

The 160 million Dalits are demanding that untouchability and other forms of discrimination based on descent practiced in India be equated with racial discrimination.

The SAGA of ``the other people has not ended. It is shifted to the international arena. They do not appear to be part of ``we the people``. Serious efforts to bring these ``the other people``, who are rotting as non-persons in a caste-ridden society, to the status of persons were on for some time prior to Independence. The people emerged from subjects to citizens after August 15, 1947. After the coming into force of the Constitution all of us attained a political status with well-defined rights. The most articulate representative of the other people wrote into the Constitution human values and gave it a human face. There was recognition in the Constitution that for the other people to truly become ``we the people`` specific safeguards and positive measures were necessary. Caste was not abolished by the Constitution. Provisions were made to treat all castes on a par with each other. But the other people, even after 50 years, have remained ``the other people``.

Constitutions and Gods have always been good. The problem has always been with the interpreters, lay and judicial. The Constitution makes untouchability an offence. And it persists. Bonded labour and child labour come from the ranks of the Dalits. Both the practices have been made penal and abolished by the Constitution and yet they persist. The entire administrative, judicial and political systems are still exercised by the ``upper`` castes despite large-scale movements against these hegemonic practices. A few are allowed to climb the social order as political leaders or as judges in the subordinate judiciary or as High Court judges. In education and Government employment, the Constitution has introduced reservation as a principle of ensuring equality for the Dalits. The present ruling party at the Centre attacked reservation as the prime cause for diminishing merit and efficiency in administration, and by stoking the anti reservation stir brought down the Government headed by Mr. V.P. Singh which stood for reservation and secularism. Thus the bogie of reservation blown out of all proportion with the reality at the ground level has created a feeling of hatred for the Dalits among the middle class intelligentsia. The rights the Dalits secured after prolonged litigation appear to offer them a quasi-freedom and a teasing illusion that they are reaching the stage of genuine acceptability into the social order as equal members. It is more difficult to fight this teasing illusion than to fight downright subjugation and the status as non-person.

In the rural areas, violence against the Scheduled Castes continues unabated. Recognizing this, Parliament enacted the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes (Prevention of Atrocities) Act, 1989, a law creating special offences which were made triable by special court. Look at the practices which continue to exist and which parliament has identified as offences under the Act. Very few of us would have gone through the definition of ``atrocity`` in the Act; nor would many of us have heard about or witnessed the indignities to which Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes are subjected continuously. Where social reformers have failed a Constitution may not succeed unless the words in the Constitution are transformed into deeds. Section 3 enumerates 22 categories of atrocities which are made punishable. Unless we read the enumeration of the atrocities set out, we may not be in a position to understand why Ambedkar wanted to get out of the Hindu system, why the Scheduled Castes want the conduct of upper castes to be made an international issue.

The law was intended to afford speedy justice, the component of speed was to act as a deterrent. The lebensraum provided by the law to evade, defeated the law without any necessary for open defiance. The assault on Dalits is legitimized by the acquittal of assailants in courts. The offences under the Act were made triable by a Special Court whose presiding officer shall be a sessions Judge. This id entrusted to the Special Court for purposes for speedy trial, an aspect of Article 21 of the Constitution. This was interpreted by the apex court to mean that like all other criminal offenses it should pass through the committal proceedings before a magistrate. This enactment now remains only in the statute book and will slowly fall into desuetude. All this is achieved without help of a loaded jury system as in the U.S. Thus we have laws, constitutional provisions showcased to tell international bodies through the obliging Attorney-Generals that the caste of the Dalits cannot be equated with race.

This story goes on to show that the minds of the people living in India and Pakistan are not biased or prejudiced . It is only the governments of the two countries and fundamentalist parties, who try their best to manipulate the minds of young people.

Welocome to Pakistan. Do Come again! :)

nb

It is incumbent upon me to introduce him to the truth - it wont hurt you either. Be our brother.

#17 Dalit

Dalits are only one group among many other groups struggling at the bottom of the indian economic pyramid. Overrepresented groups include muslims (strongly averse to modern education) and tribals (historically outside the modern economy). It would be good if your article were to acknowledge these realities.

As sridhar has pointed out, while brahmin baiting (based on 3000 year old texts) may bring some western NGO and christian money to dalit ``leaders`` as well as give pleasure at ``getting back`` at the oppressor, the reality is that 90% of violence against dalits today is from groups just above them in the economic hierarchy. It would be good if your article acknowledged these realities.

Finally, quoting western scholars like Dumont who have never travelled or lived in India probably sounds very impressive, but it misses the point. The point is economic empowerment of all indians, especially those in the bottom 25%. The point is to create 1000`s of small businesses run by dalits, to create an increasingly large middle-class based on education and professional aspiration.

Some of this has already taken place (thanks to the words largest affirmative action program run by the indian goverment

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instituted in 1947

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20 years before the great western nations recognized the need for such a program for their own minorities) and much more can take place in the India of today. But not if all energy is spent in attacking imaginary enemies and then begging for money and recognition from the UN, Christian Churches and impractical NGOs. All you will get is a handout-culture and a set of ``leaders`` whose main achievement are their large bank accounts and their ability to parade their victim status internationally.

what is wrong with you, urstruly, he is a muslim! this is barachota.

Mr. Dalit

I hope you must have heard the adage ``Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me``. Please expalin to me when you fully understand that it is the Hindu religion itself that sanctions the system of aparthied with a divine mandate, then why don`t you get out of this oppression when you have the choice. Why don`t you become Muslims and become our brothers. Islam is the only religion on this planet that mandates equality not only among human beings but nations as well. Your bemoaning will not change the core philosophy of a religion, neither it will change its adherents. Who are you when divinity itself has mandated it? So you have a choice - please study the religion of Islam with an open mind and open heart - it has never hurt anybody. You will still have the choice to go back to your old religion that has hurt you so much, but at least make an informed decision. What you are suffereing and what your ancestors have suffered since millenia, in what book it is written that your children should suffer the same. In the name of fairness and kindness to your children give Islam a chance. Remeber God helps only those who help themselves.

re:#17 by Dalit

I do not deny the Dalits had to undergo a lot of hardship and i have advocated political empowerment through the ballot as one of the ways Dalits and other victimised groups can come out of this problem.
But, it is not that simple either. In UP, the CM is a Dalit. Has the plight of the Dalits gotten better there? I hear that Mayawati, the Dalit CM, has amassed wealth. Dalits still vote for her because she is a Dalit. They are her vote bank. Their plight has not gotten better.
Dalit`s fight is against a certain mindset that seeks to divide people on the basis of caste but in reality seeks to maintain their previleges intact in doing so.

Dalits in TN are doing various jobs. I am sure in many places like Bihar, UP, they are forced to do menial jobs. As long as people`s mindset does not change, it will be difficult to bring about a change in the society.

The problem of Dalit in TN is not with Upper Caste but other lower castes like Thevar whose clout has declined to the advantage of the Dalits, creating friction.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/india/India994-07.htm
``According to the Indian government’s 1996-1997 annual report for the Ministry of Human Affairs, caste-related incidents in 1996 in the southern state of Tamil Nadu increased by 34 percent over previous years. Out of 282 reportedincidents, 238 took place between scheduled castes and other backward communities. The main caste groups involved were the Thevars, Naidars, and Vanniyas (all backward castes) and the Adi Dravidas and Pallars (both scheduled castes or Dalits).228 The number of incidents between Pallars and Thevars increased again dramatically at the height of caste clashes in the southern districts of Tamil Nadu from April 1997 to December 1998. The nexus between Thevars, the police, and district officials in the affected areas was repeatedly reflected in violent search and raid operations in Dalit villages, in the forced displacement of thousands of Dalit villagers, often with the aid of district officials, and in the disproportionate number of Dalits arrested under preventive detention statutes during the clashes. Abuses against Dalits continued following a police raid on the Dalits of Gundupatti village in February 1998 and violent clashes between Dalits and Thevars from October to December 1998. According to the state government, at least 251 people died in caste violence between August 1995 and October 1998``
So, u may have to change your theory. It is not Upper caste versus lower caste. It is the preveliged versus ``not so previleged``. A friction is created when the ``previleged group`` sees it power erode through various means and lashes out. In TN, the brahmins are completely out of the picture.
I suspect, same is the case everywhere else.

Read the following archive to learn how the Dravidian movement, which rallied all the lower castes against brahmins, gave the cry for empowerment of women and spoke against rituals completely failed to deliver the goods, so much so that the same DMK had aligned with the BJP during ABV`s rule.
http://www.media-watch.org/articles/0699/69.html

You say:
``In a hymn from the Purusasukta of the Rg Veda, the dvija are said to have been born from elevated parts of the body of the supreme being. The dalit is the ``unborn,`` with no physical link with the supreme being. According to this hymn,...``

``In the Manusmriti, (3) the dalit is described as ``polluted,`` in the same way as a menstru..``

I hope u realize both Rg veda, Manusmriti are ancient texts and are of no relevance today. Nobody in India remembers or reads these texts anymore. Few in India today can read or write sanskrit. So, quoting these texts is utter stupidity. In India of today, Constitution is supreme and is safeguarded by the Supreme Court. Constitution guarantees reservation on jobs and all other rights to Dalits that any other Indian enjoys. I hope u have not forgotten than Ambedkar, one of the makers of the Indian Constitution, was a Dalit.

Let me quote a passage from Mahabharata, where Yudhisthira the elder of the brothers, categorically states that it is not the birth but the character of an individual that determines one`s caste:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m03/m03179.htm
Excerpts:

(The serpent said, `O Yudhishthira, say--Who is a Brahmana and what should be known? By thy speech I infer thee to be highly intelligent.`

``Yudhishthira said, `O foremost of serpents, he, it is asserted by the wise, in whom are seen truth, charity, forgiveness, good conduct, benevolence, observance of the rites of his order and mercy is a Brahmana. And, O serpent, that which should be known is even the supreme Brahma, in which is neither happiness nor misery--and attaining which beings are not affected with misery; what is thy opinion?`

``The serpent said, `O Yudhishthira, truth, charity, forgiveness, benevolence, benignity, kindness and the Veda 1 which worketh the benefit of the four orders, which is the authority in matters of religion and which is true, are seen even in the Sudra. As regards the object to be known and which thou allegest is without both happiness and misery, I do not see any such that is devoid of these.`

``Yudhishthira said, Those characteristics that are present in a Sudra, do not exist in a Brahmana; nor do those that are in a Brahmana exist in a Sudra. And a Sudra is not a Sudra by birth alone--nor a Brahmana is Brahmana by birth alone. He, it is said by the wise, in whom are seen those virtues is a Brahmana. And people term him a Sudra in whom those qualities do not exist, even though he be a Brahmana by birth. And again, as for thy assertion that the object to be known (as asserted by me) doth not exist, because nothing exists that is devoid of both (happiness and misery), such indeed is the opinion, O serpent, that nothing exists that is without (them) both. But as in cold, heat doth not exist, nor in heat, cold, so there cannot exist an object in which both (happiness and misery) cannot exist?``)
Mahabharata was written much after Rg Veda or Manusmriti and is regarded as one of the Itihaasas. It is still very popular in India. The other 2 are relatively unknown.

The one thing that may change the plight of Dalits is : education. It is through obsession with education alone that Brahmins in India have dominated. As Dalits get empowered, they need to devote their new found previleges towards educating their children.
You seem to bemoan that Dalits are not to be found in new areas like IT while they have jobs reserved in govt sectors. Are u advocating job quotas in IT and BPOs? Surely u realize that these demand quality service and Dalits will have to compete with others on an equal footing. That is why, this is a non-starter.
It is through political empowerment and education alone that Dalits can better their lives. I see no other way. Dalits should not wait for the society to change. That may never happen.
Sridhar

Rohit, my nephew is one of Calcutta`s top student debaters, he`s a law student too. Did any other kids go there or just you lot?
How did the actual debates go?

THE dalit or ``Untouchable`` is a government servant, the teacher in a state school, a politician. He is generally never a member of the higher judiciary, an eminent lawyer, industrialist or journalist. His freedom operates in designated enclaves: in politics and in the administrative posts he acquires because of state policy. But in areas of contemporary social exchange and culture, his ``Untouchability`` becomes his only definition. The right to pray to a Hindu god has always been a high caste privilege. Intricacy of religious ritual is directly proportionate to social status. The dalit has been formally excluded from religion, from education, and is a pariah in the entire sanctified universe of the ``dvija.``

Unlike racial minorities, the dalit is physically indistinguishable from upper castes, yet metaphorically and literally, the dalit has been a ``shitbearer`` for three millennia, toiling at the very bottom of the Hindu caste hierarchy. The word ``pariah`` itself comes from a dalit caste of southern India, the paRaiyar, ``those of the drum`` (paRai) or the ``leather people`` (Dumont, 1980: 54).

At 150 million, dalits or ``scheduled castes`` and ``scheduled tribes,`` form about 20 percent of India`s population (Census of India, 1991). Backward castes as a whole, taking dalits, tribes, and Other Backward Castes (OBCs) into consideration, form about 52 percent of India`s population. Today, wide-ranging policies on affirmative action have opened up government service and state education to dalits. But areas of freedom are limited, largely to sectors that are under the aegis of the state, such as the civil service or state-owned enterprises. Exclusion from cultural and social networks emerges from the dalit`s crucial exclusion from the system of castes (Mendelsohn and Vicziany, 1998: 39).

The dalit`s pariah status derives its strength and justification from religious texts. In the Manusmriti, (3) the dalit is described as ``polluted,`` in the same way as a menstruating woman, a widow, or a person who has recently been bereaved is polluted. The dalit is ``unclean`` from birth. He violates, by his very existence, the brahminical obsession with hygiene (Dumont, 1980: 131). While the ``untouchability`` of the menstruating woman or the bereaved is temporary and he or she can escape the Untouchable condition after the period of ``pollution`` is past, the dalit can never escape his status: he is perpetually filthy.

In a hymn from the Purusasukta of the Rg Veda, the dvija are said to have been born from elevated parts of the body of the supreme being. The dalit is the ``unborn,`` with no physical link with the supreme being. According to this hymn, from the body of Brahma come the four main categories of Hindu society, namely the four varnas (colors or castes): (5) brahmins (priests), kshatriyas (warriors), vaishyas (businessmen), and shudras (servants). The priest is born from the mouth of the Creator, the warrior from the arm, the businessman from the stomach, and the servant from the foot. Untouchables are born from outside the body of the Creator, almost a different species from Brahma`s children. Their entry into the divine body would be as unthinkable as the entry of an animal.

Today, the literary and scholarly efflorescence among dalits is set apart from caste Hindu society as a particularly dalit development. Dalit critiques of nation and society barely impinge on upper-caste notions of the social order, of the nation-state, and of modernity in general. The reasons for this are often attributed to the grafting of traditional caste networks onto modern state institutions--for example, the upper-caste seizures of Western education and the higher bureaucracy. The slide of the independent Indian nation-state into a landscape dominated by the brahminical upper castes has meant that new ways have been found to effectively seal the dalit in his ``democratic`` prison (Nigam, 2000).

As a result of legally reserved quotas in government and in state educational institutions, sections of dalits have emerged from agricultural poverty to become middle class. Yet the waters of modern opportunity flow along the fields of the upper castes, which were the main beneficiaries of the professional opportunities provided by colonialism and which also stand to gain the benefits of contemporary globalization, such as opportunities in the Information Technology industry or in the private sector. Thus, while dalit political importance and militancy rises, at the same time the dalit remains segregated from caste Hindu society by the invisible arms of caste.

The word ``dalit`` or ``crushed underfoot`` or ``broken into pieces`` is the contemporary version of the word ``Untouchable.`` ``Dalit`` owes its genesis to the nineteenth-century writings of Jotirao Govindrao Phule as well as to the literature of the Dalit Panthers, a political group formed in 1972 in the state of Maharashtra. British colonial census takers grouped together all those communities` neighbors considered ``polluted`` and called them ``Untouchable.`` ``harijan`` or ``children of god`` was Mahatma Gandhi`s name for dalits. The word ``Untouchable`` is sometimes still used, but ``harijan`` is seen as an equivalent of ``Uncle Tom,`` a paternalistic and condescending categorization of a group doomed to remain in perpetual bondage. Dalit leader Bhaurao Gaikwad observed in 1935 that ``It is no use only giving Untouchables a sweet name. Something practical should be done to ameliorate their conditions`` (Moon, 1987, vol. 4: 230). Today most Untouchable castes would prefer to use the term ``dalit`` as an identity of assertion. The UN Conference against Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia, and Related Intolerance held in Durban, South Africa, in September 2001 equated ``racism`` with ``casteism``; although this parallel has been systematically criticized, the word ``dalit`` has been interpreted by some activists as equivalent to ``Black.``

Dalits are the main targets of what are termed ``caste-related crimes`. Over 2000 dalits died in the three years between 1989 and 1991 as a result of``atrocities against harijans`` (Memorandum of Dalit Writers Forum, 1996: 9). In the rural countryside, stripping, hacking to death, massacres and lopping off heads are the marks of a horrific bestiality inspired by the unshakeable taint of dirtiness. The dalit body, powerful, suppressed, and perennially dirty from such tasks as removal of dead cattle and waste, tanning, or toddy tapping (collecting juice from the bud of palm tree flowers) is to be violently exorcised, ritually cleansed, from the pure ``Aryan`` body of the Hindu caste system.

It is the argument in this paper that despite the far-reaching legislative and educational quotas for scheduled castes and scheduled tribes, and their undoubted benefits, dalits still are savagely attacked in the rural countryside and in the urban milieu untouchability still knocks at the closed doors of such institutions as the arranged marriage, the caste Hindu temple, the classical music concert, and the private sector. The cultural hegemony of the dvija remains virtually intact. Dalitness continues to exist as much as an idea as a physical reality. The idea of the polluted bonded servant is so ingrained in the subcontinental mind that the dalit remains at the bottom of the intellectual and emotional landscape of contemporary India, however far he may advance in a public career and agitate for change. Every child born into an upper-caste Hindu family grows up with a mind`s eye image of the acchyut (Untouchable). The Imagined Untouchable is squalid in appearance and it is the religious duty of a ``pure`` Hindu to consider him perpetually inferior.

The Emergence of the Outcaste Pariah: The Dalit and the Brahmin

```If a kalash (vessel) of water comes into a bhangi`s (Untouchable`s) hand,` sing the women of the dalit Vankar caste, `he`ll drink and drink until his stomach bursts``` (Franco, Macwan, and Ramanathan, 2000: 193).

The poor Untouchable! So eager just for water, that when he gets it he drinks until his stomach bursts!

Great efforts suitably portrayed by the author.

The one point I take serious issue with is comparing Lahore with Delhi. No way. Lahore compares with Amritsar or maybe even Ludhiana as far as food is concerned. But to compare this small semi-rural Punjab town with Delhi is showing a lack of knolwedge about Delhi. The only thing common between Lahore and Delhi, today, could be:-

a) The number of people in Delhi weeping about Lahore and vice-versa.
b) The existence of a suburb ``on the other side of the river`` called Shahdara.
c) Urdu speaking people out-numbering Punjabi speakers.

Otherwise, how does Lahore compare in any way with Delhi? Which factual quantifiable parameters would any ``Hai saadaa Lahore`` type wish to compare?

And nothing, as yet, from anybody about the microfine dust on the Wagah-Lahore Railway line. I can STILL fel it stuck in my lungs.

random thought: I recently made friends with a Pathan from Peshawar (well, his ancestral village is somewhere else, and as his father was in the army, he`s spent most of his life in different cities)... the first real Pathan I know. Over-turned many of the stereotypes I had imbibed over time - and reinforced some others!
For one thing, it turns out that just as every thing is a Jewish conspiracy or the act of the Foreign Hand for the Pakistani establishment or its ruling class, for the Pathans, the world is divided into Pathans and Punjabis. To the extent that in some circles, being called a Punjabi is the very worst form of insult - it means someone devoid/incapable of honour.
Maybe this has something to do with the Sikh rule in the 1800s... or maybe it dates back further in time.
Funny how each group has its own particular Other to define itself against.
Sunnis for Shias and vice versa, mohajirs and ansaar (sindhis), English-speaking/modrain and mullah, Punjabis and the rest of the world, Jats/Maliks/Chaudhrys/... and the rest of the world, Pathans (esp. from Peshawar) and Kabulis... the two Sindhis I know well are from well-to-do families in Karachi. One of them really resents the Pathans that have destroyed his city with their ugly katchi abaadian and their lack of respect for a place that they consider nothing more than a temporary abode to which they owe no obligations (this is his interpretation, not mine, nor do I lay claim to its validity on his behalf). There is also Baloch and Kabuli trouble (actually, these are specific cases of the mohajir/ansaar relationship).
maslay-masail...
Homogeneity is such a myth.

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#7:

Urstruly:

``So when are you people demolishing Teju Mehal? I mean Taj Mehal ``

Unfortunately I have to say that even after so many years on Chowk you are still to learn and understand the Bania mentality of Hindus. Hindus will not destroy Tejo Mahal because many tourists are visiting it and Banias are making money of it. If tourists were visitng Babri Masjid as tourist entity, it too would not be destroyed. But now it is destroyed and when Hindu temple comes up, many tourists will visit that as well.

well written.

Thanks for sharing this with us.

One of these years I would like to take a trip myself (in one sweep)

to three countries that remain an important part of me (while I live in a fouth, the USA).

They are:

1) Pakistan, the land of my birth and identity

2) Bangladesh, a land that I spent several wonderful years in and continue to love.

3) India, where my Parents came from (I would love to see their ancestral home).


Just recently I read Sheryar Ahmad`s account (Junoon`s Manager) of his visit with

brother Salman to their ancestral home in Patiala. I would like to do the same

and visit Dilli, Aligarh, Saharanpur and Lukhnow etc etc.

Pray for continuing peace...


Ras

Hey

Thanks for all the comments. Am waiting for the brickbats attacking us ``bleeding heart delusional doves``. (whats the story with doves and peace anyway!!)

Most of the ideas expressed above came after discussions with other members of the group, as well as after reading an article on a similiar theme on Himal.

Just wanted to say that similarly most Indians view Pakistani`s as a fairly homogenous lot, which they are`nt. The contrast between Lahore and Karachi, Punjabi`s and non-Punjabi`s is as much as that between any two regions in India. And these two are cities, in the rural areas cultural differences would be more stark. The idea of homogenity is essentially something that nation states are very fond of cultivating, makes life easier for them.

Rohit,
Thanks for an uplifting article. I think India and Pakistan are like two estranged lovers. They know very well that they have an amazing personal chemistry with each other, but for whatever reason, can never be together. There can be sabre rattling at a distance, but at the personal level, Indians and Pakistanis always behave like long-lost brothers. I bet if you put urstruly and jay physically in one room, they will come out with a common memorandum on peace and brotherhood!! This love and hate relationship is really a manifestation of love, because as the cliche goes, the opposite of love is indifference, and we are certainly not indifferent to each other!! It is just sad and tragic that two sets of people with so much affection for each other have been condemned to live apart for ever.

So when are you people demolishing Teju Mehal? I mean Taj Mehal

Oh great, another peacenik. Get ready to be torn to shreds, buddy.

the next post`s gonna be from Urstruly starting with `Besharam hinduon`; and then jay`ll take over with how many jihad boxes your pathetic eyes spotted in karachi, and then all the rest of the crowd`ll pitch in to make it a nice happy party. Oh well, you won`t the first to stub your toes on the path to peace.

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``khubsoorat kar key``, janaab, ``khubsoorat kar key! aaho!``
hope your enthusiasm is infectious :D
loved your definition of ``home``
I so wish I was back home so I could see the inside of the Taj Mahal too!

Rohit

(We need to develop the maturity of respecting and owning the differences between communities and nations — a recognition of unique identities beyond the homogenous macro picture. There is no point in shying away from these ‘contrarieties’, otherwise there would always be an undercurrent ready to erupt to sweep away human comity and dignity)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Enjoyed reading.

NHK