Twilight of a Passionate Love Affair

Stuka

``no, Muslims were not ``profiled`` in Gujarat. The neighborhoods were attacked and they were killed.``

I think denial and little knowledge are extremely dangerous things, which makes you extraordinarily dangerous. Read the Independent commission report by Dr. Kamal Mitra Chenoy, S.P.Shukla, K.S. Subramanian and Achin Vanaik. All leading techocrats and Officials in India. Throughout the report you will find the evidence of this ``Profiling`` that you keep denying.

``But the attacks on Muslim properties and persons which started in Ahmedabad and some other urban and semi-urban areas of Gujarat on 28th February, were based on detailed information including the possession of lists. As the NHRC Interim Report points out there were “widespread reports and allegations of groups of well-organized persons, armed with mobile telephones and addresses, singling out certain homes and properties for death and destruction in certain districts…” Gujarat VHP Chairman Prof. Shastri claims that these lists were prepared only on February 28th morning. Even if this was true, it begs another question. What was the data base on which basis this list was prepared, and who prepared the basic document[s] and when? That surely could not have been prepared for tens of thousands of Muslim properties and residences just in one morning.

Earlier attempts at the preparation of such lists are a matter of public record or widely reported. On February 1st/2nd 1999, the then Director of Police [Intelligence] P.B. Upadhyaya sent a confidential circular ordering all Police Commissioners and district police officers to provide details including addresses of existing Muslim organisations, their leaders, as well as the names and addresses of Muslims participating in certain religious activities and related matters. [See Appendix 1] This circular, and a similar one pertaining to Christians, was challenged in the Gujarat High Court, and withdrawn a month later. Though this circular was withdrawn, some details about Muslim institutions and individuals along with their addresses, must have been collected in the intervening one month period.

Victims and other informants claimed that months earlier, persons claiming to represent a market survey firm visited their establishments to collect data about ownership, production, sales, number of employees, etc. They now believe that this may have been a prior attempt at ethnic mapping to identify Muslim businesses and establishments. The Gujarati language press allegedly played its part. On the basis of their experiences of earlier riots a number of Muslim entrepreneurs gave non-Muslim, mainly Hindu, names to their establishments, so that these were not readily identified as Muslim. It was claimed that some eight months earlier, Sandesh had published an article in which it listed many such establishments pointing out that despite their names these were Muslim owned. The rioters however, also attacked establishments that had Muslim ‘sleeping partners,’ a fact not widely known. It would appear therefore, that the mob leaders had access to government records from the sales tax/excise departments and the like, not normally available to the average citizen.

Another fact that appears to indicate prior planning for a communal attack according to informants is the collection of liquefied petroleum gas [LPG] gas cylinders. It is claimed that for some two weeks before February.28th, LPG cylinders were in short supply in Ahmedabad, and middle class consumers had to book them and stay in queue. But the rioters who took over Ahmedabad from February 28th were armed with thousands of LPG gas cylinders, obviously collected in advance, which they used to blow up Muslim commercial establishments and residences in the days that followed. These LPG cylinders are bulky and heavy metal cylinders that can only be transported by medium or heavy vehicles. The fact that such vehicles [including tempos and trucks], were available along with the much sought after LPG cylinders appears to indicate prior planning of some weeks, not to speak of days.

Taken together, all the available evidence including media reports, the reports of informants, eyewitnesses and others, appears to indicate a carefully planned attack over time on Muslim properties and persons throughout the State, beginning with Ahmedabad, with State connivance. The attack, it would appear, was planned well before February 27th. The ghastly events of Godhra appear to have merely provided the trigger for an anti-Muslim pogrom prepared well in advance. In that sense, the tragedy in Godhra is merely a coincidence. The premeditated and focussed attack on Gujarati Muslims was already planned, awaiting a trigger or pretext. The unexpected carnage in Godhra on February 27th unfortunately, provided that convenient trigger.``

I await your further denials.

mallick99

i think urstruly has correctly identified the war on terror (result of 9/11) as the main cause for concern for american muslim community. untill then, this was a happy community, mostly supportive of republicans. he has also spelt out the endgame..leave it to god to take care of things..a guaranteed success. jews after persecution formed israel, were part of a major event (WWII), where many others died as well. indians went to reservations, an unfortunate consequence of darwinism in the wild-west. blacks on the other hand, with help of others in the US (mostly the liberal jews) protested using the famous civil rights movement, and are well integrated inspite of color based bigotary.

so, what is the endgame (besides the one based on gods will)? please spell it out before its too late, and the game then is purely reactive.

stuka # 55 - perhaps your definition of ``profiling`` is different than is widely accepted. Profiling occurs when a segment of population is targeted, or held to special treatment - because of their beliefs, ethnicity etc.

#56dost-mitter
dm
this dawn article paints quite a gloomy picture of life in canada, i thought canada had a decent welfare state, don`t local authority provide housing?

recently quite a few canadians have shifted to britain for work, especially teachers.

regards

Before you leave home for Canada......


[from Dawn`s Magazine]

Immigration insults
By Rohail Ahmed

Leaving your homeland in search of better future prospects can be a dream-shattering experience.

As the aeroplane began its descent to Toronto`s Pearson International airport, my heart started to pound with excitement and fear. I was wondering what lay ahead for me in a country where I was now going to live all my life, hoping to build a promising future.

It all started as the process of `immigration` to Canada began. It was advertised in the local newspapers and Canada was dubbed as place `to be` where everyone from the Third World wanted to settle.

Most immigrants and potential applicants harbour hopes that once they reach Canada, all their problems and so-called injustices done to them in their homelands would vanish into thin air and they would be able to breathe fresh air with loads of dollars rolling into their bank accounts. Therefore most people don`t worry about going through the hassle of preparing immigration papers, paying different kinds of fee, which sometimes they can ill afford. And the most troublesome of all, saying goodbye to their dear homeland which once provided them with so much love and support over the years. It`s because of their countries that they`re accepted and got the green signal from immigration officials in Canada. Many even squander their lifetime savings to pay the hefty charges of immigration agents who claim guaranteed good results for their services, thus ripping people off; but they are actually not better than mere post office boxes.

Now coming back to my journey to Canada. As I had already informed my relatives in Canada, they were there to welcome me at Toronto`s international airport. I stayed with them initially until I found a place to get started.

In Canada, to find a small apartment for yourself is not an easy task for it requires either a suitable job or personal guarantee from someone known. So if you are not blessed enough to meet these requirements, then forget the comforts of your own accommodation and you will be forced to stay with somebody (relative or a friend) or share it with someone you don`t even know by sharing the rent. If you are lucky, you can also find some apartment available to sublet from the original leaseholder, but it would be for a shorter period during which you have to find an employment to meet rental qualifications. Throw your privacy out of the window and prepare to live with another family in the same single-room accommodation. Exciting, isn`t it? Not to mention that it`s a rented unit unlike the situation in Pakistan where most people have a house and don`t have to pay a hefty rent every month. So I tried very hard but was unable to lay my hands on any suitable job. One of the reasons was that a college or university degree obtained from the Third World is not acceptable to the so-called developed countries. Also, one has to experience the fact that once you land in a foreign land, you lose your real identity. One has to literary start from scratch and only if one is lucky and happens to be at the right place at the right time, one can get a suitable job.

So I was going through really desperate times and wanted to take care of my fast vanishing savings. As a result, I started doing odd jobs like tele-marketing and a packing job at a factory and working part time at a fast food takeaway outlet. Though I was making enough to earn a living, I had begun seriously regretting the day I decided to leave the job and comfortable lifestyle in my country. With the passage of time, reality started to sink in that things were not as I had expected. I also started sharing accommodation with some bachelors passing through similar circumstances as I could ill afford to continue paying rent.

Despite the constant search, I was not able to find a reasonable job let alone a job in my area of expertise. Only odd job seemed to be the way to go about it, but it wasn`t what I had come to Canada for. The situation reminds me of a person from India who was working with me at a departmental store. He had been a finance manager in a multinational organization in India with almost 12 years of experience, but even with that qualifications he was unable to find a lower level job in Canada. After spending two years in Canada with his family, he was so hard pressed that he used to go to cheap Chinese stores to buy food items. He would fondly remember the days when in India his servant would perform all such daily chores.

The weather in Canada is usually cold and is not suitable to do outdoor work if one is not healthy enough. In winter it gets extremely cold with temperatures dropping to -30 degrees Centigrade to -40O degrees Centigrade.

The people, particularly with conservative backgrounds, face another problem. Children growing in this free society often get spoiled and parents lose control over them. This happens as children try to be a part of the Canadian society so as not to be isolated or socially alienated from the world they see around them. In the process, with the passage of time, they become more associated with Western cultural values and don`t like their parents` traditions.

It`s been two years since I first landed here and I am still looking for a proper direction to move in. I have now decided to do a course in order to get some acceptability in the job market; but the future still seems very uncertain. Countless other immigrants are also passing through the same phase, especially those with large families.

I have a sincere advice for those who are eager to fly to Canada, a country the Americans call ``frozen wasteland in the north or a parking lot`` that they should think at least 100 times before packing their bags to come here.

``All i suggested was that jews were profiled before being massacred in Germany,``

True.

``Indians were profiled before getting annhilated in North America,``

Not true.

`` blacks were profiled before put in bantustans in South Africa,``

Not true.

``blacks are still profiled in US. ``

True and they are the biggest supporters of profiling Muslims/Arabs.

I don`t think you understand the term profiling in a law enforcement aspect. And before you start, no, Muslims were not ``profiled`` in Gujarat. The neighborhoods were attacked and they were killed.

Manto

Your post was the only authentic one that touched the heart of the matter.

Romair...

Good ... Good you are enjoying yourself... and declaring Canada to be superior to the United States... (it was easier to read the US constitution back to back... US constitution is much more idealistic than the Canadian constitution btw).... but good that you find Canada as such a safe haven...

But have you considered the fact that no `twin towers` have been attacked in Canada... no capital buildings have been destroyed... yet... Knowing the terrorists... I am sure they will soon head for Canada... Then where will you go next? Maybe France? ... that will be good... then you can compare European goras with North American Goras... and draw new conclusions...


I am disturbed by your article... I wouldn`t want to be in a position, whereby a gora, because of anti-American sentiment, moves from Lahore to Dehli, and starts talking about how much better India is than Pakistan... even if it is better ... Good people are found everywhere ... you can`t compare the Americans with the Canadians, untill and unless the Canadians too have gone through the same ordeal as the Americans...


Please don`t take it personally... but I think your article was pointless.


-YLH

malik99

I was never convinced, even before 9/11, that the American value of ``unreasonable searches``, which comes thru their constitution, stands on a solid ground. It never has for the past 250 years, as you elaborated in your post. What makes a search ``reasonable`` is purely subjective and a matter of individual discretion of the authority that is conducting the search. How do you gage one`s ``discretion`` is beyond me. But now that America has declared war on all Muslims, of whom, 90% are non-white, profiling is a necessary evil. Most of the people who are subjected to ``unreasonable searches`` do not have constitutional protection anyway, since they are not citizens. Hence, it is a moral burden of impossible measure that US adminsitration and its people will have to bear. And it is not in human capacity to bear such burden, especially, when those who are charged with such duty, have absolute powers, as individuals and as nation. And everybody knows what absolute power does - it corrupts absolutely and hence Gitmo and abu Gharaib. Therefore, lives will be destroyed and businesses will be ruined and humans will suffer in the coming several years as long as this war doesn`t find a political solution to follow. Those who feel immune today will be subjected to it in due course. This is the nature of war anyway. So, in short the root cause of this evil is the war and not the moral degenracy of American people. War however, will take away the sense of right and wrong in due course. So, is there a hope? Yes, God always replaces a system of injustice and human suffering with a better one. Order does emerge after chaos. What goes up, must come down.

jang # 50 - i was not upset in my previous post - i was merely being myself when i read arguments such as these.

I am not sure what specifics are warranted by your argument which seems to rationalize profiling. All i suggested was that jews were profiled before being massacred in Germany, Indians were profiled before getting annhilated in North America, blacks were profiled before put in bantustans in South Africa, blacks are still profiled in US. In all these cases, profiling led to catastrophies. The world has gone through a lot of bloodshed and catastrophies because of these seemingly rational ``profilings``. So for thinking mind like you to ``seek clarification with specifics`` on the issue of profiling is, with all due respect, quite cute :)

#49 by malik99

malik you are getting all upset. i am trying to understand what specifically you meant by a catastrophy (i get confused by rhetoric) so i seeked clarification. with specifics, there is a possibility of adressing the issue. while the rhetoric endgame aim is always catasrophic. its important to not whip-up a frenzy and understand the nature of the being.

#46 jang

you are quite right London is expensive and overcrowded, but there is more to England than just London, the countryside and hills of Derbyshire are breathtakingly beautiful, so is the English Riviera in cornwall.

During summer thousand of Canadians, Americans, Australians descend on northern industrial towns in search of their roots, visiting cemeteries where their parents or grand parents are buried , churches where weddings of their parents were held , schools they parents attended, nostalgia is a big business England must earn billions.

Sadly in northern cities the drug and prostitution mafia is dominated by mirpuri young men, they drive around in flashy cars and have villas in Spain and Cyprus, they fathers must be turning in their graves.

Regards
aslam

jang # 39 - you write ``interesting. what would be a catastrophy? a wipe-out like the one done for red-indians or stuff like profiling (e.g. driving-while-black) that you are talking about?``

if you think ``stuff`` like profiling is a something to shrug your shoulders at, then i am not sure how I can present my further arguments.

please keep in mind that jews were also merely ``profiled`` by Nazis - afterall a vast majority of Germans genuinely thought that Jews had made wealth at the expense of germans, and had stabbed them in the back during WWI. So I am sure you are ok with that profiling too?!! If you are not ok with the Jewish profiling by Nazis, then I think you are a hypocrite and a the slave of worst kind who seems to be comfy over the profiling of his fellow muslims. The rate this profiling is going, pretty soon you or your family member will soon find themselves ``profiled`` too. Its only a matter of time.

It is profiling like these that leads to the wipe-out of entire people. ``A good indian is a dead indian`` was the way white profiled american indians. Look where they are now!

also, your point that the 20 million listeners of rush limbaugh, the 15 million of Sean Hannity, the 10 million of Laura Ingram, and the 10 million of Mike Savage do not represent the middle america, then i am not sure how I can present other arguments to you.

soy
``Americans can`t be whipped into a frenzy? News to me. Two countries reduced to rubble and I suppose it was all cool & calculated not frenzied. ``

yes.

#44 by aslam644

Aslam, england/london is indeed a fun place to hang out based on my visits there. only -ve i have (for living there) is that its crowded and expensive. london rocks for food. i have not been to the muhallas like bradfordistan or southhall however. and soho seems to be completely under russian (eastern european) mafia control. one more -ve thing..i cant stand the eurotrash, they stink (literally).