The Mystery of South India

Kabulliwallah:
Your first-hand information is really enlightening.

Please comment on the script/s ( are the curls in script because of ``writing on leaves``-theory correct?).

Also write something about the music-notation as compared to `north`. I am truly very very impressed by the ``southern`` music and tabla/mrdung (a very succesful arab/andhra evolved fusion as opposed to forced-fusion of today a la Rahman). Same goes for their superb `nature` based dances which have now been corrupted as Bharatnatyam & kathaakali by culture-vultures of ``adventurers`` over the millinia.

Please also write something about the fondness for very very sour tasting food. This extends right upto Vietnam and then suddenly``Indo: stops & ``chinese`` begins. Sri Lankans (sinhalese) beat Tamils in consumption of red chilli-peppers ( highest/capita world). How these distinctions come about. Do these establish `nationalisms`` as well?

nazar Hayat:

The following site contains several articles about the history of the region, which now falls in Pakistan. One article gives chronological order of rulers/ dynasties. I am sure you will enjoy reading articles in the main section and related articles section.

www.geocities.com/pak_history/main.html

Kabuliwallah:

Good to see you interacting here. Thanks for clarification. Terms saka and scythians are used for the same tribal origins, scythian in English and saka locally. Unlike aryans, which is a family of languages, scythian is a term for a family of tribal identiies. check out this article. All the words containing hazara and gujar are memories of various scythian tribal groups.

www.geocities.com/pak_history/indoscythians.html

A good reading, though in my meeting with you in Karachi, I had discussed most of the salients. Let me re emphasise that it was a pleasure meeting you along with your family. Its my fortunr that I came across such lovely peoiple.
God Bless
Ijaz

Iyers and Iyengars being north indian migrants has nothing to do with Aryan invasion theory at all; this is much recent, less than 1000 years ago

and probably they came as scholars or priests.. havent read the sources but there are some histories of the south indian brahmins. forget the author.. was a well known statesman

re: SameerJB

Ujjain I think falls in Madhya Pradesh and historically has not been considered part of the South. Ujjaini kings claimed descent from either the sun or the moon, which I think kings from South India did not. You are right, Rajaraja was the Chola king who was a bloodthirsty conquerer but a great builder as well (probably to appease his Gods and cover up his guilt). However this building activity employed thousands too. It was the stone slab on top of one of his temples that weighed tons and had to be installed by building a causeway and slowly moved inch by inch from the quarry by placing tree trunks underneath it. Elephants were used to pull the massive stone.

As regards Kerala, the historian that travelled with the Chinese Muslim admiral Zheng He, was fascinated by the similarities between the cultures of China and Cochin. Both civilizations placed importance on trade rather than war and this was beneficial for both. It is interesting that while the chinese fleet invaded Sri Lanka on the way, and made the Lankan king a prisoner, they did not feel a need to go to war with the king of Cochin.

I thought the Scythians (Sakas) did not confine themselves to just the Punjab and did not mind conquering regions outside the Punjab, much less adopting a Punjabi identity. They even adopted Indian religion and had Hindu names. I was also wondering if Kushans and Sakas are the same or if they are a different tribe.

regards

Kabuli

I am yet to see so many things in this country- It is mind blowing to find different cultures and linguistic groups (not to speak about religions) in one cultural pot. Hats off to this place. There is a great tolerence for diversity as the cultural inter mingling and migrations has taken place within the country- in every state capitol you can find the religious/linguistic group of your choice and most of them are pretty organized. Even the rural areas have seen such intermingling of populations- you will always find a bengali or bihari colony in any respectable district. Ofcourse the old stereotypes have been mostly broken in the last 50 years- the politicians do try to incite people with the `extra rights for the original inhabitant` slogan in every region. But now people understand that actually the `issues` for every region are the same- and the `original inhabitant` slogan is just a way to mobilize support- if it does not get the development/education/employement for the people it is no good.
A lot of Pakistani Generals have felt that one way to avenge their humiliation has been to incite people so that the cultural , linguitic differences would lead to balkanization and dismemberment of India. However, they have not been able to do so becasue the interminglinging has gone at a faster pace than the support to the separatism- also the governent has been by far able to contain these separatists .
However, for some purists from Pakistan, india`s cultural and religious diversity will remain an eyesore.

re: Silly

I agree with most of what you say. I spent a couple of years in Bangalore, and yes, the scripts of Telugu and Kannada are very similar and so are many words. I noticed that the `pa` sound in Telugu is `ha` in Kannada. Like Puli in Telugu and Huli in Kannada. Same goes for Palli and Halli.

I was born in Rayala Seema and the people of that region take great pride in calling themselves the descendants of the Vijayanagara Kings, Rayas. In the ghat section between Cuddapah and Chittoor, (very near Kodur) there is a board near the head of a hair pen bend, which describes the glory of that region during the heyday of the Rayas, who came on the scene a couple of centuries before the Mughals. Though Shri Krishnadeva Raya was a Telugu poet, it was only after living in Bangalore and visiting Mangalore a couple of times, did I come to know that he was a Tulu. I do not know what it is that made him adopt Telugu as his personal as well as the court language. It is a shame that I was not able to visit Hampi while living in Bangalore. My grandfather used to say that it took the Bahmanis weeks to destroy and burn the city.

Interesting enough, the Raya dynasty did not die after the battle of Talikota and continued to rule, though nowhere near their former glory, in small principalities. Chandragiri in Chittoor was one such place.

http://www.india.org/OldTourism/AndraPradesh/page_a4.htm

http://www.vijayanagaracoins.com/htm/architecture.htm

http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/nov23/gallery.asp?pic=9

regards

Kabuli

re: Echoboom

the Vindhya mountains are generally considered the dividing line between North and South. This would put a lot of Maharashtra and the entire Konkan coast in the South. But for reasons best known to historians and anthropologists, Marattas and Konkanis are not usually mentioned with other South Indian peopels. The Khaleelis that you mention might be part of the court of Arcot, which was a princely kingdom before independence. Many erstwhile Arcotis are very rich and successful businessmen and also hold high posts in the civil services. Ex-England cricket captain Nasser Hussain`s father is a scion of the royal family of Arcot.

regards

Kabuli

Hi Nazar:

It takes a sharp nazar to look at South India. South India has been an enigma and present renaissance in South Asia will be driven by South India, and not by testasterone driven Taliban land. Within in India, I have noticed a very interesting movement among the middle class of younger generation. This is movement of North Indian entreprenuers and risk taking engineers to South. Earlier generation South Indian bureaucrats moved to the north. It produced Hema Malini and others. This entreprenuerial and technical expertise movement is producing its own variety of Indian cultural identity and melting pot. Pakistan should try to participate in this peaceful movement of population. Handwriting is on the wall.

Anil

Nazar Saab,

Like always, good read!!

I feel perception of South India by Northies can be summed up by Laloo`s joke, ``sab to Madrasi hain``. In U.P. and Bihar, we have no way of knowing that a southerner can be anything other than Mehmood`s character in Padosan; someone who eats idli sabar, plays mridangam, wears dhoti like a lungi (Chidambaram style) and even manages some moves of Bharatnatyam.

This perception is shaken when one actually comes here.

There are a number of sub-cultures and all jostle to prove how different or similar they are to Tamils. Tamilnadu is the India of South and other states are like South Asian countries whose survival depends on chumminess or antagonism to India. The only point when Kannadigas come close to regional Chauvinism is when they are thrashing Tamilians in riots.

Tams are a proud race; they hold other languages and cultures in slight. They have a startling history for a South-Asian group and were one of the first to catch on to Raj bandwagon. The result is a vast array of eminent people in various fields. Over the years, they have realized that being a part of India is more beneficial than going it alone.

Rest of them have branched out from Tams at one or the other times, and their difference from Tams is proportional to level of mixing with other people e.g. North Karnataka with its Maratha influence, coastal Karnataka (Mangalore) with its Konkan influence, and Telangana with a strong Muslim influence. Kannada, Malayalam and Telugu are Sanskritised languages (give or take other influences) and I can bet my last Rupee that they would have been lot similar to Tamil a millennia back than they are now.

A number of North Indians are coming to Bangalore (and in smaller numbers to Chennai and Hyderabad). Those who come to Chennai run away at the first chance and those who come to Bangalore rarely go back to North. Chennai represents the psychology of Tamils, people very proud of their culture and hostile to the extent of fanaticism to `external` influences. You can’t survive in Chennai if you don’t know Tamil, Bangalore is a different world :-)

nhk

(As I said in my article, the entire Europe is Arayan but there is considerable difference in people`s features from the Northern tip to the Southern tip - another theory that is based on the effects of the climate.)

the entire Europe is not Aryan there are other tribes e.g celts, basques anthropologists have identified three race types Caucasoid, Negroid, mongoloid. So entire Europe is Caucasoid but not for long though.
South India was probably Negroid hence you have the self proclaimed GOD sai baba with afro hair and Negroid features, who was recently exposed with his dhoti down sexually abusing white boy.

Over the past 2 centuries Caucasoid and Negroid cross-bred in brazil so in the present day you have chocolate coloured brazalian, some thing of a similar process took place in India over the centuries.
Regards
aslam

Echoboom # 21

(I am also interested to know about the scripts of ``south-India`` . What is their origins, how they evolved and how are they linked to other languages nearby)

Generally, I find South Indian spellings little difficult. I have actually rarely heard these languages being spoken barring sometimes on TV. These are all Dravidian family of languages with their own origin and no known link to any other place to the best of my knowledge.

Telugu: Telugu is usually written using the Telugu alphabet, a Brahmic script. The Telugu script is phonetic in nature. It has 56 characters in total. Its appearance is quite similar to the Kannada alphabet.

Tamil: The Tamil script evolved from the Grantha script of the Southern Indian group of scripts. The Tamil language is one of the oldest recorded languages in southern India. The earliest texts, written in a southern variant of Brahmi, date from just before the 1st century. Later, the Grantha script was employed to write the Tamil language until the 8th century CE when a distinctive script evolve to exclusively write the language. The system has changed little since.

Kannada: The language has 52 characters in its alphabet and is phonetic, but cannot represent all phonemes. The script itself, which resembles the Telugu script, is fairly complicated like most other languages of India owing to the occurrence of various combinations of ``half-letters``, or symbols that attach to various letters in a manner similar to the aigue, grave, and cédille marks in Romance languages. The alphabet is classified into three categories: swaras (or vowels), vyanjanas (or consonants) and yogavaahas (part vowel/part consonants).

Malayalam: In the early thirteenth century /vattezhuthu/ (round writing) traceable to the pan-Indian brahmi script, gave rise to the Malayalam writing system, which is syllabic in the sense that the sequence of graphic elements means that syllables have to be read as units, though in this system the elements representing individual vowels and consonants are for the most part readily identifiable. In the 1960s Malayalam dispensed with many special letters representing less frequent conjunct consonants and combinations of the vowel /u/ with different consonants.

Malayalam now consists of 53 letters including 20 long and short vowels and the rest consonants. The earlier style of writing is now substituted with a new style from 1981. This new script reduces the different letters for typeset from 900 to less than 90. This was mainly done to include Malayalam in the keyboards of typewriters and computers.

Farzana # 22

(I have always maintained that South India is far more civilised than the North)

You have a point. South India seems to be at peace with itself. It has preserved its ancient traditions & culture and yet is very much with the world. It also appears that South India has a mellow temprament. One does not hear of any communal tensions there. North India is relatively more haughty, emotional and somewhat more aggressive.

NHK

SammerJB # 19

( Other than these, Bactrians (Greek-Afghan/ Khorasan) and Parthians (Greek-Persian) also ruled areas now falling in Pakistan. Of course you can add another 500 years of rule of several local Scythian (Jatts and Rajputs) princes who ruled various areas of Pakistan only)

You are absolutely. It is just that I could not get their exact periods of rule so I skipped them.

Nazar saab:

Looks like you are falling in love...with my watan:) I won`t be patronising and say that it is so good to see a Pakistani write about Indian society/culture:in today`s world we should realise that we belong everywhere. (I do wish though that you had made the essay a bit less academic-sounding.)

I have always maintained that South India is far more civilised than the North (note, I do not say Western India, so Mumbai is beyond all this). I do however realise that this applies only to those who still live in South India and do not interact at Chowk (a couple of honourable exceptions are there...).

Re. vegetarianism, it is prevalent only in TN, though again I have tasted great kebabs in Chennai. In Kerala, they even have non-veg dosas and their mutton stew and appams are to die for.

I do not know how many people are aware, but TN and Kerala have a love-hate relationship. In fact, the moment you cross the `border` from one state to the other, you will notice the difference. And they do take pains to emphasise it. Tamilians think they are more cultured and sober (both in the non-alcoholic and general sense). You can see it in their dance forms -- Bharat Natyam vs. Kathakali. Kerala also excels at local martial art forms like Kalaripayatu. Malayalees from Palakkad are considered honorary Tamilians because they are more Brahminised and some say less loud, though given that former Chief election commissioner T.N.Seshan hails from there, I would not be too sure.

In one of your posts you wrote, ``If I am not wrong, North India is basically a patriachal society. The man is considered the master of the house. Though the woman is held in a great esteem.
In contrast, South India is a matriachal society. The woman exercises a strong influence in the household. And her position is more elevated in the society.]

The woman is not held in great esteem in any part of our subcontinent, except as some goddess figure. Not all of SI is matriarchal; it was only some communities in Kerala, where the son too took the mother`s name. Today, it is more a continuation of the system, if at all, rather than any genuine attempt at empowerment.

Which is why despite the highest literacy rate, it also has the largest number of suicide cases.

PS: Those who think South India is a mystery have obviously not read the exchanges between soysauce and harimau. Forget mystery, here is a garbled mess within a parochial enigma caught in the dark ages of a Periyar conspiracy!

Well just a little more than half a century ago ``Hindustan`` meant only the present-day Northern India.( Narbada taapti is the dividing line or vindhia-chul mountains. Could someone please clarify where is the boundary between N/S?).

Most writings of about 100 years ago talk of Dakkan and Hindostaan. Not Uttar Hindostaan or Dakkni Hindostaan. Just Dakkan and Hindostaan, meaning lands south of Hindostaan. Hence not part of Hindostaan [except for a brief period and then too not all of it, under Aurangzeb]

Some madrasis still talk very fondly and with respect about the Khaleelis and Nawab Ismail (s). I`ve been told that almost a quarter of old madras belonged to these Iranian families. Their mansions and upscale neighborhood is still inhabited by their progeny.[ Mr. Khalili , an ICS, was a highly respected civil servant and industrialist(poineer in petroleum refinery) of Pakistan]

Iam also interested to know about the scripts of ``south-India`` . What is their origins, how they evolved and how are they linked to other languages nearby.