The Mystery of South India

where is harimau by the way??? 80 posts have passed. . .soysauce has been on at least twice and not a peep from harimau iyer. kya hua? :)

#34 Farzana Versey
PS: Those who think South India is a mystery have obviously not read the exchanges between soysauce and harimau. Forget mystery, here is a garbled mess within a parochial enigma caught in the dark ages of a Periyar conspiracy!

Explain in plain english please. What does ``parochial enigma caught..etc.`` mean?

The woman is not held in great esteem in any part of our subcontinent, except as some goddess figure. Not all of SI is matriarchal; it was only some communities in Kerala, where the son too took the mother`s name. Today, it is more a continuation of the system, if at all, rather than any genuine attempt at empowerment.

Which is why despite the highest literacy rate, it also has the largest number of suicide cases.

How does the conclusion follow? It is true that suicide rates are high overall in the south and they probably are the highest in TN. There was a recent report of a study on the BBC website to this effect. It`s not uncommon for school kids (mainly boys for some reason) to kill themselves if they fail an exam and young adults of either gender to take their life if they feel rebuffed by someone they are sensually attracted to. Their egos seem so fragile. I don`t know why this is so.

Soysauce #80

{{The dravidians came earlier than the indo-eurpean speakers but the point of origin is just about the same. We are all Ay..rabs!}}

Given that hominids are supposed to have evolved in Eastern Africa, we are all Africans by the same token.

{{The aryan invasion theory is based on language analysis and archeological digs.}}

The article to which you provided a link is a very interesting summary of evidence for successive migrations of populations into the Indian subcontinent over a very long period of pre-history. They do not however provide evidence for an Aryan invasion in the form in which it is commonly portrayed. AFAIK the original 19 th century AIT was advanced primarily on the basis of linguistic commonality among the Indo-European languages and not on the basis of archaeology at all. [A caricatured synopsis of the tension that found resolution in the theory: Sanskrit was determined to have a structure very close to those of Greek and Latin, the canonical ‘high culture’ languages of European antiquity; but to possess still greater regularity, which could not be reconciled with the degraded state of the defeated ‘race’ and civilization that had inherited it. Therefore it, and its accompanying ancient high civilization, must have been introduced into India by conquering invaders.]

Here is a very nice article, devoid of hatred or hysteria, that contains a summary of arguments for and against the AIT:

The Aryan Invasion: theories, counter-theories and historical significance

The last two sections Relevance of the Aryans and Uniquely Indian aspects of Vedic literature are a refutation of the idea that ancient Indian civilization was primarily an import that developed outside the subcontinent. I would especially recommend the last five paragraphs to anyone interested in this vexed AIT business – please read them even if you don’t read the rest of the article.

#82 by soysauce:

[#34 Farzana Versey
PS: Those who think South India is a mystery have obviously not read the exchanges between soysauce and harimau. Forget mystery, here is a garbled mess within a parochial enigma caught in the dark ages of a Periyar conspiracy!
Explain in plain english please. What does ``parochial enigma caught..etc.`` mean?]

Pleaaaseee, it was said in jest, though come to think of it, you guys talk in tongue-twisters and want plain English from me. Parochial enigma is the incessant parochial references both of you make and one of you insists on some conspiracy theory or the other that has nothing to do with contemporary reality. My statement was not to be taken so seriously, though.

About highest suicide rate and literacy, the connection is one of frustration; that is the link.

And please do not say things like, ``What the hell are you talking about?``. It hurts me :)

Ref FarzanaVersey #22

[Malayalees from Palakkad are considered honorary Tamilians because they are more Brahminised...]

I am not aure that ALL Malayalees from the Palghat area are considered honorary Tamilians. However, the brahmins of Palghat region are immigrant brahmins from the Tanjore district of Tamil Nadu who were invited by a local ruler to settle in his land. They speak a mixture of Tamil and Malayalam at home. Some of their names (such as Pranatharthiharan) are unique to the Tanjore area and thus maintain their tribal memory of emigration from Tanjore.

[The woman is not held in great esteem in any part of our subcontinent, except as some goddess figure. Not all of SI is matriarchal; it was only some communities in Kerala, where the son too took the mother`s name. Today, it is more a continuation of the system, if at all, rather than any genuine attempt at empowerment.]

I think you need to blame the whole thing on modern Christian missionaries and middle-class morality. Prior to their arrival, the women of Kerala were sufficiently liberated to do pretty much what they pleased. Marco Polo records about Malabar (part of present-day Kerala) that if a Nair woman took a fancy to a passing young man, he would stick his sword in the earth outside the hut to indicate that they were not to be disturbed. No opprobrium was attached to this type of behavior.

The Nair woman used her husband pretty much as the queen bee uses the drones - for impregnation purposes only. The woman ran the household with the help of her brothers and the property descended entirely through matrilineal lines. Till about the end of the 19th century, women also went topless in Kerala.

It took the missionaries to get the women to think that going topless was somehow immoral. As they started adopting more and more of middle-class morals, Nair women lost their position of privilege.

Imagine, if a blouse could do that to a woman what a burqa would do!

PS. I have proof that the current crop of Indian students have no idea of history. It was reported in the papers that a college in Kerala attempted to impose a dress code on students. The women wanted salwar-kameez to be the uniform (they claimed that it was so much easier for them to travel by bus in salwar-kameez) whereas the men demanded that the sari be declared the uniform for women as it is the traditional dress for women. If only they understood their own history, the men would have demanded that women wear only the `mundu` and go topless! (Usual evil grin!)

Ref ana #81

[where is harimau by the way??? 80 posts have passed. . .soysauce has been on at least twice and not a peep from harimau iyer. kya hua? :) ]

Harimau is reeling from the summer heat. Nevertheless, in response to your concern, I have awakened from my slumber to aim a few barbs at that unctuous moron.

Ref Masanamuthu #82

[#34 Farzana Versey

Explain in plain english please. What does ``parochial enigma caught..etc.`` mean?]

Farzana meant to type in ``parohcial enema``.

This is the specialized enema that you have been getting all your life from Father Big Man, The Great Intellectual and Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion about how the 3% Aryan immigrant Brahmin minority of Tamil Nadu have been usurping the rights of Gounders (Kannada speaking), Chettiars, Naidus and Reddiars (all Telugu speaking) who somehow rightfully belong in Tamil Nadu but not the Brahmins. That is the ``parochial`` part. The ``enema`` part refers to your diarrheic ouput on Chowk.

Ref Masanamuthu #80

[Farzana,
I need a clue. What the hell are you talking about?]

Finally an admission that you are cluless.

We had known it all along.

farzana, there was no need whatsoever for you to let out the secret that the rest of us are endlessly entertained by soysauce and mr iyer. spoilsport!what if they stop?

harimau,

now you`ve gone and done it. . .and my concern shall now be reduced to mischief and troublemakingness. *sniff*

#83 Alephnull
The aryan invasion theory is based on language analysis and archeological digs
My understanding is that Mohenjadaro & Harappa had a decisive effect on the acceptance of AIT. I`ll check out your article.
Regarding your other point, the time frames for migration out of africa and the middle east are different by at least 2 orders of magnitude.

#84 Farzana
Pleaaaseee, it was said in jest, though come to think of it, you guys talk in tongue-twisters and want plain English from me. Parochial enigma is the incessant parochial references both of you make and one of you insists on some conspiracy theory or the other that has nothing to do with contemporary reality. My statement was not to be taken so seriously, though.

I must protest. I think you`re confusing harimau talking to himself with harimau talking to me. He forgets his medication before logging in and you see the result. At any rate, your recent forays into yellow journalism shows in the way your writing has become very imprecise. You have become hard to understand. Hope you can recover :)

And how could South India be mentioned without paying homage to Tippu Sultan:
(Technology tranfer from East to West?)


India`s Scientist-President speaks:

Tipu Sultan`s contribution to Rocket Technology

Source: The History of Indian Rocketry,30 th Nov1991 .
By Dr. APJ Abdul Kalam
(Director Defence Research & Development Laboratory Hydaerabad, India)

Rocket technology engulfed me for two decades since my visit to Srirangapatna in1960 . The question continued to haunt me - ``How Tipu Sultan would have led to the world`s first war rocket?`` ``What environment was responsible for the birth, of such a technological innovation in our country``. In August 1974 I received a paper presented by Frank H.Winter of National Air and Space Museum Washington USA, titled ``The Rocket in India from ancient times to the 19th century``. This highly researched paper presented the `Agni Astra` from Vedik hymns to Tipu`s war rocket with eighteen classic references. Winter`s conclusion is startling for the Indian Scientific Community. He says, ``Thus, it is fair to suggest that the venerable rocket from the subcontinent of India may well have had its technological impact upon the West. If so, in retrospect, it was an important, if subtle, a technological transfer of recent history. ``

Many such researchers have to spring up in our Universities as well. Soon, I learnt that two of the war rockets captured by British at Srirangapatana have been displayed in the Museum of Artillery at Woolwich in London. o­ne of my missions during my visit to Europe in 1980was to study this rocket. Dr.VR.Gowarkar and I visited the museum. It was a great thrill especially for Rocket technologists like us, to see an Indian innovation in a foreign soil well preserved and with facts not distorted.

Under the heading ``India`s War Rocket``, the following details are recorded in the Woolwhich museum London. The motor casing of this rocket is made of steel with multi nozzle holes with the sword blade as the warhead. The propellant used was packed gunpowder. Weight of the rocket is about2 kg. With about1 kg of propellant.50 mm in dia about250 mm length, the range performance is reported900 mts to1 . 5km. Our designers analyzed and confirmed their performance. What a simple and elegant design effectively used in war!

---

The text above is an sourced from the homage paid to Tipu Sultan by, Dr. Abdul Kalam during the Hazrath Tipu Sultan Shaheed Memorial Lecture organised by the Al-Ameen Educational Society Bangalore o­n30 th Nov 1991

Dr Kalam is currently the President of India

[Are the baighairats, who are busy poaching & selling the vital-organs of the Pakistani nation to keep their Masters dogs in good health, reading this?]

#85 etc by harimau:

So now you have begun to deconstruct for me, but do you think I would confuse enigma with enema? I am not yet under the influence of absinthe (and arsenic has just not worked!).

[Marco Polo records about Malabar (part of present-day Kerala) that if a Nair woman took a fancy to a passing young man, he would stick his sword in the earth outside the hut to indicate that they were not to be disturbed.]

Would make better sense if she stuck the sword, unless she indeed wished to be disturbed instead of having to stifle a yawn...

[The Nair woman used her husband pretty much as the queen bee uses the drones - for impregnation purposes only.]

So, what`s new????

[Till about the end of the 19th century, women also went topless in Kerala.
It took the missionaries to get the women to think that going topless was somehow immoral. As they started adopting more and more of middle-class morals, Nair women lost their position of privilege.
Imagine, if a blouse could do that to a woman what a burqa would do!]

I have always believed that tribal cultures are the most evolved in terms of gender parity and civilising through clothes was one way to make them backward. However, the value system that comes with urbanisation would not have given the Nair women any privileges had they stuck to their blouseless state -- it would then become a weapon of abuse in the hands of the patriarchal system.

About the burqa, you can`t resist a dig, can you?

[PS. I have proof that the current crop of Indian students have no idea of history. It was reported in the papers that a college in Kerala attempted to impose a dress code on students. The women wanted salwar-kameez to be the uniform (they claimed that it was so much easier for them to travel by bus in salwar-kameez) whereas the men demanded that the sari be declared the uniform for women as it is the traditional dress for women. If only they understood their own history, the men would have demanded that women wear only the `mundu` and go topless! (Usual evil grin!)]

I would have gone along with you had the women demanded that they wanted to stick to their traditions. (Unusual angelic smile!)

Veeresh mentioned some local alcohol, white in colour...am not sure if it is toddy or arrack. Is it neer? I know that you get it as you drive through the countryside not in shops but by vendors with handcarts or bicycles...I think I saw it a few time driving from Tuticorin towards Nagercoil.

PS: Are you back in my country? If you happen to go to Tirunelvelli could you please pick up a couple of bottles of the local Jasmine perfume? It costs 75 bucks each (rupees, not dollahs)!
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#90 by soysauce:
[I must protest. I think you`re confusing harimau talking to himself with harimau talking to me. He forgets his medication before logging in and you see the result. At any rate, your recent forays into yellow journalism shows in the way your writing has become very imprecise. You have become hard to understand. Hope you can recover :)]

If you can hear him talking to you while he is talking to himself, then you have been eavesdropping!

Now it is my turn to protest: what yellow journalism are you talking about? And if you felt this way, you could have said so on my boards. Btw, imprecise writing (which means writing that you cannot understand) is not to be confused with yellow journalism. My last two pieces were pretty simple to understand, but for your sake I will try to add footnotes. Yup, hope I can recover too...from the damning realisation that people cannot take a simple joke.
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nb:

As you can see, they are unstoppable. For your entertainment alone???!! In fact, I think they are conspiring together... while soysauce has just accused me of being imprecise etc, harimau does not interact on my boards anymore. Perfect timing and jugalbandi...
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nazar saab:

Due apologies for the above. I try to avoid banter on other people`s boards, but you will agree that I did contribute my bit about SI too:)

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echo, all kinds of rocket were use in medieval wars in india. tipu is not an inventor or anything. just because he is a muslim you want to go gaga over him?

There is a very strong evidence against AIT, there is not collective memory or scripture or writing anywhere which talks about an aryan invasion. Even relatively simple civilizatoins like the hawaiians have their ancient voyages in collective memory.

re:#71 by jang
Buddhism spread to Srilanka from the North India under the Mauryas (Ashoka sent his own children: Mahendra, Sanghamitra to Srilanka and SE Asia to spread Buddhism). I think since south did not fully fall under the Mauryas, hindu influence prevailed. This is not to say that Buddhism did not exist in the South. It coexisted with Jainism and other belief systems. But i do not know why no buddhist temples exist in the south. You have me there.
Sridhar