Indira Gandhi Bunaam Bush!

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#168 by dost-mittar on August 18, 2004 4:58am PT
Dost Saheb could you provide the details of religious beliefs of Bhindrawale and his followers.
What were their tenets? What religious beliefs they followed? What were their beliefs about non- sikhs, Muslims and other communities? Why did they kill and blow up the innocent people? What were their stated aims and objectives in arming themselves? Were they fighting a religious war against non-Sikhs? And was their occupation of Golden Temple accepted by SGPC? Were the ordinary Sikh believers awed by the display of arms in the temple precincts? Were they afraid of them?

DMji,

It is good that you compared the Iraq problem to Khalistan issue. In fact, it definitively proves that India has a tendency to forcefully occupy foreign lands. Tamils (and by extension, all South Indians) feel subjugated, Sikhs are alienated, North-Eastern people are exploited and Kashmiris (and by extension, all Muslims) are dying to join their Muslim brethren across the border. The Gujjus, Marathas, Bongs and Oriyas are feeling the heat; the whole world knows that their sub-cultures are under attack by Hindi imperialists. The only one who are reaping the dividends are the citizens of BIMARU states - they have one of the highest PPP in the world, roads like the cheeks of a famous actress, towns and cities bustling with technology and innovation and arrogance that would put the Yankees to shame. It is high time we got together and started a movement to free these communities from the yoke of Indian (aka BIMARU) control and cut India to size. Come to think of it, even die-hard nationalists like Farzana and Ishrat are with us :-)

Death to India!! Long live secessionism!!

BTW, is any Chowky enrolling for the Mahdi army, or will the war in Najaf and Fallujah be fought like the wars of Palestine, Kashmir, Afghanistan ET all...from the confines of air conditioned offices and homes on the laptops...

#167 by stuka

[Shows the knowledge or lack of it. While there were desertions from the Indian Army, there was not a single case of mass desertion from Punjab Police.]

I don’t think Brar said that either. The GoI feared that since there were desertions from the Indian Army by Sikh soldiers who were based outside Punjab, the policemen who were inside Punjab and were privy to Bhindranwale’s inflammatory speeches were more likely to do so. Hence the alarm.

[In fact while KPS Gill is given credit, it was all the police chiefs including Rebiero who led the Punjab Police in battle.]

Julio Ribeiro headed the Punjab Police before KPS Gill but it was only after the latter took over that militancy was defeated decisively. This is not to underestimate Ribeiro’s contribution.

[The rank and file of Punjab Police was and is majority Jatt and they are the ones whi finally defeated terror.]

I’m not familiar with the composition of the rank and file of the Punjab Police and so cannot comment on it.

[The man makes the arguement that people would have picked up their swords and lances and converged on the Golden Temple to ``besiege the army that was besieging the temple``. First of all the image is laughable. Secongly, would people not do the same if the temple was actually attacked? What would the Army do then?]

It is easy to underestimate the gravity of the situation then, but only those at the helm who had to take that fateful decision would have known. It is not easy for someone to order an attack on a temple knowing it is as sacred to Sikhs (and many Hindus too) as Mecca and Medina are to Muslims. Seriously, do you think the GoI could have ordered the attack just to spite the Sikhs (who form a significant component of the Armed Forces) without provoking a rebellion/backlash from them?

[Basically this guy is justifying his role akin to Gen Dyer saying he had to open fire in Jallianwala Bagh to prevent a lerger violent reaction.]

This analogy is rather flawed in the sense that the Jalianwala Bagh protesters were unarmed, whereas the terrorists inside the Golden Temple complex were armed with sophisticated weapons. Even an armored carrier was blown to bits as it tried to enter the complex, which is proof enough of the kind of weapons the terrorists possessed. No one in his right mind would have hoped to clear it without use of force.

#166 by stuka

[Pakistan had not even mobilized, let alone cross the international border and Brar claims they might have attacked.]

Can you corroborate your statement?

[So one fine day Khalistan was to be declared and the Indian government had been sitting pretty till they had a three to four day window?]

I agree that was a mistake. Until then, the GoI had tried to negotiate with Bhindranwale and get him to surrender. They should have tried to do that earlier.

[But the entire Sikh issue as well as the Army operation was a giant hoax played by Indira Gandhi and her people upon Sikhs as well as Indian people at large.]

Unfortunately, that is the impression created by the separatists. But what you and others fail to see is that Bhindranwale and his followers had turned the Golden Temple into a near-impregnable fortress and it required massive force from the Indian Army to regain control of it. The large number of innocent casualties and damage to the temple were unfortunate, but I don’t think it could have been avoided at that moment.

ballukhan#162:

``I thought there is no ritual of conversion to make one a hindu? I may be wrong , but if I am I may be corrected. IS there a way a Sikh can be `converted` to become a Hindu.``

The RSS people do not want Sikhs to convert or reconvert to become a hindu. They do not believe that being a sikh means leaving hindu religion. This situation is the mirror opposite of Ahmedias in Pakistan. Here, the sikhs protest that they are not hindus while the RSS people insist that they are. It is the classic case of ``main kumbal ko chhodata hoon, par kumbal mujhe nahin chhodata``.

````Can you imagine if one fine day Khalistan has been declared, what would have happened? Pakistan would have recognised Khalistan and crossed the borders to support Khalistan, like we did in Bangladesh. The Punjab police might have crossed over to support Bhindranwale...``

Shows the knowledge or lack of it. While there were desertions from the Indian Army, there was not a single case of mass desertion from Punjab Police. In fact while KPS Gill is given credit, it was all the police chiefs including Rebiero who led the Punjab Police in battle. The rank and file of Punjab Police was and is majority Jatt and they are the ones whi finally defeated terror.

``People would have picked up their swords or lances and hundreds of thousands would have converged on Amritsar and the Golden Temple and besieged the army that was besieging the Temple! We can`t fire at these people, ``

This is almost retarded. The man makes the arguement that people would have picked up their swords and lances and converged on the Golden Temple to ``besiege the army that was besieging the temple``. First of all the image is laughable. Secongly, would people not do the same if the temple was actually attacked? What would the Army do then?

Operation Woodrose commenced right after blue star to pacify the Punjabi countryside. Two division of the Army were deployed, one along the border and the other spread through the hinterland. That could have been done regardless. Basically this guy is justifying his role akin to Gen Dyer saying he had to open fire in Jallianwala Bagh to prevent a lerger violent reaction.

Harish Hyd

You and Jang bring up similar point. I have read the entire interview when it came about. Asking Brar on Blue Star is like asking General Dyer on Jallianwala Bagh. Brar is worse then ignorant, he is lying. Pakistan had not even mobilized, let alone cross the international border and Brar claims they might have attacked. So one fine day Khalistan was to be declared and the Indian government had been sitting pretty till they had a three to four day window? The attack took place on a Gurpurab day when tens of thousands of innocent people were there.

Amritsar was after all Indian territory and the police had been present in and around Golden Temple since DIG Atwal was assasinated. Why were no precautionary steps taken? I am a Hindu and am not a supporter of the Sikh seperatists in the least. But the entire Sikh issue as well as the Army operation was a giant hoax played by Indira Gandhi and her people upon Sikhs as well as Indian people at large.

jang #159, bongdongs #163

Lt. Gen Brar`s interview is actually in four sections. You can access them from the bottom of this page (Parts I - IV):

Operation Bluestar, 20 years on

Part V gives a different perspective. Part VI by Lt. Col. Athale is a interesting angle on the genesis of the problem.

#144 by stuka

[Why was the government willing to conduct a siege for weeks during Black Thunder? Why was a siege conducted on Hazratbal? What was the immediacy of Blue Star? None.]

Here is the two-part interview with the man who commanded the Operation, Lt.Gen. Kuldip Singh Brar (retired), that will answer your questions.

Pakistan would have recognised Khalistan
There is always a limit to how much any country can take

Excerpts:

``That was a coincidence. You must try and understand that perhaps the government had just about three or four days to carry out the operation. We had some sort of information that Khalistan was going to be declared any moment. You try and figure out that one fine day, Bhindranwale declares Khalistan and hoists the Khalistan flag...

The Khalistani currency had already been distributed; Pakistan was pumping in money, they wanted a strong part of India, which is Punjab, to secede and for India to disintegrate.``

``It is very easy to say to we could have laid siege, we could have postponed it for a day or two, or carried out the operation without the loss of life. It is only we, who were there at that time, who know what our limitations and needs were. Our soldiers went into what you would call a death trap. They had no cover, they were out in the open [when moving from the entrances to the various rooms and sections where the militants were hiding]; in contrast, the militants had barricaded every window and were heavily armed.``

I thought there is no ritual of conversion to make one a hindu? I may be wrong , but if I am I may be corrected. IS there a way a Sikh can be `converted` to become a Hindu.

And what is Hinduism?? Nazar SAheb`s article make me think that it is basically a conglomeration of faiths from Sahivism, Vaisnavism, Jainism, Shaktism, Saibabism, NAthsim etc. etc. which may have some shared beliefs.

Is there a ``book`` for Hinduism? Are there any guidelines which are universally acknowledged like aHadith in Hinduism? I may stand corrected, but is it possible that some one`s Hinduism can be considered purer than the others?? And as far as I understand Arya Samaj considered diverse sects or practices as a ``conspiracy`` and wanted a `purer` interpretation of hinduistic beliefs - it was an attempt to monopolize, semitize and standardize the diversity in hinduistic beliefs?
And so was Bhindrawale`s interpretation of Sikh history??

Recent interview with Gen Brar:

http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/jun/03inter.htm

``Can you imagine if one fine day Khalistan has been declared, what would have happened? Pakistan would have recognised Khalistan and crossed the borders to support Khalistan, like we did in Bangladesh. The Punjab police might have crossed over to support Bhindranwale...``

http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/jun/04inter1.htm

``The other problem of a siege was that, once laid, word would have spread to the hinterland within 24 hours. Every villager in Punjab would be told the Golden Temple was under siege. In those days, every rumour or fact was exaggerated; such messages are sent out emotionally, thus surcharging the atmosphere. People would have picked up their swords or lances and hundreds of thousands would have converged on Amritsar and the Golden Temple and besieged the army that was besieging the Temple! We can`t fire at these people, and we can`t surrender, so what are we to do? We didn`t want such a situation to arise. ``

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Kaurasach:

RSS is trying to `correct` history.....they want to turnback the tide....make everyone Hindu....in this zeal, amongst other things they want sikhs to return to hinduism....

``-- they have created orgs like RSS (Rashtriya sikh sangat) to counter and create upheval and disunite sikhs. ``

True

``--the Centre also encouraged Nirankari sect who killed innocent sikhs...ultimately Blue Star... ``

False. The Centre never encouraged Nirankaris. Only thing is they never took harsh action against them as Damdami Taksal wanted them to. The Damdami Taksal wants Nirankaris to be in same status as Qadiyanis in Pakistan.

--

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