Indira Gandhi Bunaam Bush!

pardesi

you are right...bhindrawale was a brave and noble warrior, like musharraf`s ``freedom frighters`` in kashmir...manmohan singh, that traitor of sikhs, should erect a shrine in delhi for him....and offer a few more air india planes to his friends in canada to blow up to balance out the number of dead

sameer`s wet dream about punjabi nation should be ignored...he`s been salivating over that issue with regards to his own country too...someone should ask the guy who will do math and science in a nation of punjabis...will they hire foreigners for that?....hahahahahaha...j/k

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I was hoping that the discussion on this thread would be more on Iraq than on India, but I am not surprised at the way it is turning out. For those of my Indian friends who claim that Sikh alienation is a thing of the past, I would suggest to take their heads out of the sand in which they are buried. Yes, there is no khalistan movement going on right now. But if you do not recognize this alienation (and no gujju, it`s not of the same type as elsewhere) and willing to do something about it, be prepared for a second round. I thought that making Manmohan Singh was a wonderful healing step and it would have been if Tytler, whom the sikhs believe to be a butcher, had not been made a minister. Obviously, he is not Manmohan`s choice. To use a crude Punjabi example, it is giving someone a paratha but to top it with human excreta instead of butter.

KKANK:

Words mean different things in different languages. It may be that the Arabic meaning of Shahid is as what you say. In usage in India, it means martyr and nothing else. Why the hell would a Sikh use the name of an alien god upon death?? Talk sense.

And yes, I am against terrorists. I simply do not believe these people were terrorists. Unlike the bearded ones from our neighboring countries, they killed face to face and not one innocent person was harmed.

Pardaisi: Good post. I would like to say though the problems were not in Pujab alone. Punjab was simply more noticeable because of visibility of Sikhs and proximity to both Delhi as well as North west border. The point is that a lot of these issues were a result of Indira the individual and the cult of sycophancy that surrounded her.

That idiot Vajpayee had called her Durga after the 1971 war thereby elevating her status. Next someone came up with the slogan of India is Indira and Indira is India thereby reducing a country with a 5000 year old civilization and a rich and varied culture to one capricious individual. Indira Gandhi was not a dictator but she might as well have been. Democratically elected, she and her coterie did more to destroy institutional foundations in India then anyone else. The problems were not in Punjab alone but also in Assam. Andhra etc. Credit goes to Punjabi Sikhs for demanding what was due to them before others even thought about these things.

W.R.T to history, the same people who buy the line of the centre hook line and sinker are the ones with least bit involvement in Punjab. The unfortunate fact is that history is written by victors and reality os that history being fed is that created by Indian State. Besides, it is natural reaction for a Non Punjabi to take the side of federal government of which he is part then to listen to Punjabis alone where they do not feel affinity.

On the plus side, federalism is a reality. There is no going back regardless of the elitist dream.

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don`t you people get tired of fighting over the same things over and over again on the front page?

i miss unplugged, if it wasn`t for my chowk addiction, i wouldn`t be visiting the front page again

arjun_m,

i don`t care if Kerry voted for the war, what`s our alternative? the country needs a change of office for a possible jumpstart, he can`t be worse than Bush.

Pardesi,

I have read your interacts with great interest. I think you genuinely represent the expat Sikh worldview and the conflict between Sikh v/s Indian it was subjected to. At the outset let me mention that as a young teenager I was in Delhi in `84 and not just Delhi I was trapped on the Delhi/Haryana border (Modinagar) where I the worst violence took place. Once we got out of there, for the next week I was living on the campus of the St Stephen`s hospital in Dehli which was then functioning as a temporary morgue.

I recently read Satish Jacob and Mark Tully`s book ``Amritsar`` and maybe that is something you should consider reading. In addition to the points you brought up, I think people should consider the following:

- Most of the violence in Delhi was caused by the Haryanvi`s. The conflicts in Haryana/Punjab relations is usually ignored when discussing the causes of violence.

- Sikh politics in the `80`s was trapped in a cycle of right wing politics, with the Congress and Akali`s trying to outflank each other on the right. After a decade of hard right politics by the Akali parties they had no grounds to oppose Bhinderwale when he cut the ground from underneath their feet. I do believe most Sikh`s were deeply disturbed by this in the early `80`s but they had no voice in the Akali parties (Have you heard the Bhindervale tapes?). I resent your trying to potray the issue as purely one of states rights (sound familiar :-))

- Leave aside the historical issues I see this as a problem in even present day Sikh politics which even the Vancouver and San Jose Sikh`s dont seem to immune to. Only a permanent seperation between the gurudwara and the state can fix this, but with the deeply emotive form of Sikh politics I dont see how this is possible.

- Also I was in Pune when Gen Vaidya was killed. I cannot sweep this underneath the carpet.

rsaxena # 82

”you are right...bhindrawale was a brave and noble warrior, like musharraf`s ``freedom frighters`` in kashmir...manmohan singh, that traitor of sikhs, should erect a shrine in delhi for him....and offer a few more air india planes to his friends in canada to blow up to balance out the number of dead”

Bhindrawale is not my hero and neither is Indira Gandhi. They deserved each other and I hope they are having good time together.

Shrine in New Delhi for innocent victims of Indian Government sponsored, funded, administered massacres will heal the wounds. But that’s not expected too soon from impotent and coward people who enjoy burning innocent men, women and children and are fair weather nationalists after independence is won with other people’s blood over 300 years.

Manmohan Singh is not a traitor and my best wishes are with him. I will be very proud of his achievements even if his name was Manmohan Lal, Mohsin Sohail or whatever.

Let’s thank Christian government of Canada that they punished only the criminals in Air India case and not burned alive a few thousand resident Indians unlike our own under developed sadistic baboons in India whose idea of law and order is order the law.

re: stuka

{they killed face to face and not one innocent person was harmed. }

yes, that air india plane that our cuddly friends from canada blew up did not have any innocent people

dost-mittar

we understand that you feel bad about that comment you were dragged into last month..you`ve apologized for it several times and nobody holds it against you....but to make up for that, you will now write 80 articles with nonsense to curry favor with pakistanis...you are going a little overboard, aren`t you?...

barachota: k is used for c to dodge the censor...now if you had a half a brain to figure that out, you wouldn`t be making an a$$ of yourself on chowk by adopting multiple nicks and getting banned...muahahahaha kicking you is no fun - it is like beating up a kid.

Dost Mitter ji,
I really feel sorry that your board has been hijacked towards unintended destination.
Therefore, this is my last post on this topic on the board.
Regards.

Stuka # 86:
You are right. Historically, Punjabis, and Sikhs in particular, always got punished for taking the lead in challenging the “higher authorities in Delhi”. The punishment is always meant to teach lessons to others and the excuse, as they say in corporate world, always is “it’s nothing personal, just business”. Honestly, I don’t know what they should do. Grin and bear like others do and wait for right opportunity? The problem is that some times that may take 1200 years of slavery.

Bongdong # 87
Frankly, I am ignorant about Punjab politics and really do not care about Akalis or their games with each others. My view is that if they are stupid they will suffer economically and let free markets take care of it.
My emotional outbursts are directed at the Central government (1984) for their full scale attack on innocent civilians. Governments protect their own citizens. They do not send mobs to kill their own kith and kin. You see, Indira sent her troops to fix Bhindrawale for his evil activities. I can live with that. But then, how do we punish those Indian Central government official bastxrds for what they did to innocent people later in Oct/Nov? Implications of inaction should be important to all fair minded Indian citizens not just Sikhs.

arjun miaN - what Scout is saying that today George Bush is the most despised leader on the face of the earth internationally....

Europeans countries would not touch Iraq with a ten feet pole as long as Bush is in-charge -- there is a personal animosity between him and the leaders of Europe --

Kerry has no international enemies....

Kerry talks about internationalizing and UNizing Iraq -- he is prepared to give command and control to UN -- without command and control going into UN hand -- NO DEAL is ever possible .....

After the transfer -- Kerry will be able to persuade not only France and Germany Belgium and Spain to help share the burden of Iraq -- but bring India and Pakistan also to help with troops.....

as long as this Moron is President -- Iraq will remain a killing field for all parties...which is mostly the Iraqis......Iraq and the United States desparately needs NEW FACE...so

ABB -- Anybody But Bush....

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