Train to Pakistan 2004: La, Hore?
Veeresh Malik August 22, 2004
#416 Posted by rsridhar on September 8, 2004 7:22:53 am
re: The third globalization?
Many years ago, i was reading The Economist that had an article tracing the GDPs of the world economies throughout the second millenium. Guess who were the top 2?
China followed by India. China, throughout much of the second millenium had cornered about 29-30% of world trade. India (which now includes India, Pakistan, Bangladesh) had cornered about19-29% of world trade. Between the 2, they had half of world trade!
When British left India, India accounted for less than 1% of world trade. The figure stands at around 1% today.
The following 2 series articles detail how all this is going to change in future and the 2 nations are going to assume their traditional roles as global economic giants:
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=402657
(The Great Reverse - Part I
After two centuries of Western domination, China and India are poised to claim their places
Clyde Prestowitz
YaleGlobal, 2 September 2004
China - due in part to the silk trade - boasted the world`s most powerful economy in the 18th century Enlarged image
WASHINGTON: ``The balance of influence in this region is shifting rapidly to China - not yet the balance of power, but the balance of influence.``
That statement, made recently to me by a senior leader in Singapore, is an early indication of how a new, third wave of globalization is ending the era of the West`s global dominance and restoring Asia to its traditionally powerful and influential role.
The history of the past 500 years has largely been the story of the dynamism and expansion of first European and then American power. The initial wave of globalization was launched in the late fifteenth century by the early Portuguese and Spanish explorers. The high technology of that day was embodied in the Spanish galleon and the navigating skills that guided it. Using this technology, intrepid Iberian captains could go anywhere the wind blew, enabling the kings of tiny Portugal and Spain to lay claim to nearly half the world.
Soon thereafter, the Dutch and English developed the joint stock company and built the ``capitalist road`` by enabling the amassing of large amounts of capital on a relatively low-risk basis with the potential for very large gains. And the gains were sought largely in the East, where the legendary wealth of the Indies beckoned, for at this time, the standards of living in the West were well below those of the East. By the end of the 18th century, the countries of the European periphery had combined their technological leadership with low-cost labor - sailors from the lower rungs of society were routinely pressed into service - to acquire huge empires in Asia and elsewhere.
The second wave of globalization began at about the time of the founding of the United States, with the onset of the Industrial Revolution. The steam engine and new manufacturing technology multiplied productivity and wealth a thousand-fold. Over the next 200 years, this further accelerated the rise of Western wealth and dominance. In 1776, the year of the American Declaration of Independence, China still had by far the world`s biggest and most powerful economy, with the area we now call India and Pakistan following close behind. Indeed, at this time, Asia accounted for well over half of global gross domestic product. Industrialized mass production dramatically reversed the balance; by the end of the 20th century, the US and Europe accounted for two-thirds of global GDP, while Asia was responsible for only 20 percent.
In the 1990s, four developments laid the foundation for the third wave of globalization, which is now leading to the Great Reverse. In the wake of the Tiananmen Square incident, the leaders of China concluded that the only way to hold onto power was to bring China fully onto the ``capitalist road.`` India, seeing the rapid success of China, also decided to abandon its socialist protectionism in favor of getting on the capitalist freeway. At about the same time, the conclusion of the Uruguay Round of trade talks, along with China`s inclusion in the World Trade Organization and the opening of most countries to foreign investment, removed most of the classic barriers to the global flow of goods and capital. Finally, the development and deployment of the internet after 1995 largely negated time and distance as significant cost factors for a vast number of products and services.
China is now, without question, the location of choice for most manufacturing. Its huge population provides a continuing supply of low-cost labor. By widely opening the doors to foreign investment, emphasizing education of technologists, and providing major incentives for technology transfer, it has combined inexpensive labor with technology to create a huge competitive advantage similar to that enjoyed by the Portuguese and Spanish half a millennium ago.
This is not just a matter of low-tech, labor intensive manufacturing. On my recent trips to China, I have visited state-of-the-art plants for manufacturing semiconductors and other high tech products equal in quality to those produced in the West - and at less than half the cost. Moreover, in recent interviews, top Silicon Valley venture capital executives emphasized to me their plans to shift start-up companies` Research and Development activities to China or India as fast as possible. Indeed, some said they would not fund any start-up that lacked a China or India R&D strategy. The logic is simple: There are a lot of good technologists in those countries who can do much of the high-tech work at 10 to 15 percent of the cost in the West.
India has not yet become the same magnet for manufacturing as China, but it is clearly the location of choice for software development and many other services. Again, one should be careful of the conventional wisdom that thinks only in terms of call centers and grunt programming. For example, the British National Health Service recently announced that it is shipping all blood samples to India, where they will be analyzed and the results faxed or e-mailed to the appropriate medical facilities in the United Kingdom.
As a result of these kinds of development, both China and India have enjoyed annual GDP growth of about ten percent over the past several years. In fact, China has been racking up such growth for the past twenty years. Projected into the future, these growth rates show why the senior Singapore leader made his comments about the shift of the balance of influence. By the year 2025, China`s current GDP of about $2 trillion (adjusted for the undervalued renminbi) would be $16 trillion, and India`s current GDP of $700 billion would be about $5 trillion. Over the same time, the current U.S. GDP of $11 trillion would reach $21 trillion if it grows at the average rate of U.S. growth of the past forty years. Even if these estimates are well off the mark, they show a dramatic narrowing of the gap between Asia and the West. China is already the biggest trading partner for Japan, Korea, and the other key economies of Asia. Its influence will only grow from here, as will that of India.
To this must be added the demographic story. Europe is literally dying. Its people are aging rapidly, and birth rates are far below those necessary to maintain current population levels. By 2050, the population of Germany, for example, will shrink from the present 83 million to about 75 million. This will put a severe limit on European growth prospects. The United States, by dint of immigration and high Hispanic birth rates, will maintain small population growth, but it will age substantially over the next 45 years. Because of its one child policy, China will also begin to age rapidly in about 20 years. But half of India`s nearly one billion people are presently under the age of 25, and there is no one child policy here. Thus, in the long run, the 21st century could well turn out to be the Indian century. In any case, it will surely be the century in which Asia resumes its historical position of economic power and influence.
Clyde Prestowitz is the author of Rogue Nation: American Unilateralism and the Failure of Good Intentions. He is also President of the Economic Strategy Institute and a former trade negotiator in the Reagan Administration.)
Sridhar
Many years ago, i was reading The Economist that had an article tracing the GDPs of the world economies throughout the second millenium. Guess who were the top 2?
China followed by India. China, throughout much of the second millenium had cornered about 29-30% of world trade. India (which now includes India, Pakistan, Bangladesh) had cornered about19-29% of world trade. Between the 2, they had half of world trade!
When British left India, India accounted for less than 1% of world trade. The figure stands at around 1% today.
The following 2 series articles detail how all this is going to change in future and the 2 nations are going to assume their traditional roles as global economic giants:
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=402657
(The Great Reverse - Part I
After two centuries of Western domination, China and India are poised to claim their places
Clyde Prestowitz
YaleGlobal, 2 September 2004
China - due in part to the silk trade - boasted the world`s most powerful economy in the 18th century Enlarged image
WASHINGTON: ``The balance of influence in this region is shifting rapidly to China - not yet the balance of power, but the balance of influence.``
That statement, made recently to me by a senior leader in Singapore, is an early indication of how a new, third wave of globalization is ending the era of the West`s global dominance and restoring Asia to its traditionally powerful and influential role.
The history of the past 500 years has largely been the story of the dynamism and expansion of first European and then American power. The initial wave of globalization was launched in the late fifteenth century by the early Portuguese and Spanish explorers. The high technology of that day was embodied in the Spanish galleon and the navigating skills that guided it. Using this technology, intrepid Iberian captains could go anywhere the wind blew, enabling the kings of tiny Portugal and Spain to lay claim to nearly half the world.
Soon thereafter, the Dutch and English developed the joint stock company and built the ``capitalist road`` by enabling the amassing of large amounts of capital on a relatively low-risk basis with the potential for very large gains. And the gains were sought largely in the East, where the legendary wealth of the Indies beckoned, for at this time, the standards of living in the West were well below those of the East. By the end of the 18th century, the countries of the European periphery had combined their technological leadership with low-cost labor - sailors from the lower rungs of society were routinely pressed into service - to acquire huge empires in Asia and elsewhere.
The second wave of globalization began at about the time of the founding of the United States, with the onset of the Industrial Revolution. The steam engine and new manufacturing technology multiplied productivity and wealth a thousand-fold. Over the next 200 years, this further accelerated the rise of Western wealth and dominance. In 1776, the year of the American Declaration of Independence, China still had by far the world`s biggest and most powerful economy, with the area we now call India and Pakistan following close behind. Indeed, at this time, Asia accounted for well over half of global gross domestic product. Industrialized mass production dramatically reversed the balance; by the end of the 20th century, the US and Europe accounted for two-thirds of global GDP, while Asia was responsible for only 20 percent.
In the 1990s, four developments laid the foundation for the third wave of globalization, which is now leading to the Great Reverse. In the wake of the Tiananmen Square incident, the leaders of China concluded that the only way to hold onto power was to bring China fully onto the ``capitalist road.`` India, seeing the rapid success of China, also decided to abandon its socialist protectionism in favor of getting on the capitalist freeway. At about the same time, the conclusion of the Uruguay Round of trade talks, along with China`s inclusion in the World Trade Organization and the opening of most countries to foreign investment, removed most of the classic barriers to the global flow of goods and capital. Finally, the development and deployment of the internet after 1995 largely negated time and distance as significant cost factors for a vast number of products and services.
China is now, without question, the location of choice for most manufacturing. Its huge population provides a continuing supply of low-cost labor. By widely opening the doors to foreign investment, emphasizing education of technologists, and providing major incentives for technology transfer, it has combined inexpensive labor with technology to create a huge competitive advantage similar to that enjoyed by the Portuguese and Spanish half a millennium ago.
This is not just a matter of low-tech, labor intensive manufacturing. On my recent trips to China, I have visited state-of-the-art plants for manufacturing semiconductors and other high tech products equal in quality to those produced in the West - and at less than half the cost. Moreover, in recent interviews, top Silicon Valley venture capital executives emphasized to me their plans to shift start-up companies` Research and Development activities to China or India as fast as possible. Indeed, some said they would not fund any start-up that lacked a China or India R&D strategy. The logic is simple: There are a lot of good technologists in those countries who can do much of the high-tech work at 10 to 15 percent of the cost in the West.
India has not yet become the same magnet for manufacturing as China, but it is clearly the location of choice for software development and many other services. Again, one should be careful of the conventional wisdom that thinks only in terms of call centers and grunt programming. For example, the British National Health Service recently announced that it is shipping all blood samples to India, where they will be analyzed and the results faxed or e-mailed to the appropriate medical facilities in the United Kingdom.
As a result of these kinds of development, both China and India have enjoyed annual GDP growth of about ten percent over the past several years. In fact, China has been racking up such growth for the past twenty years. Projected into the future, these growth rates show why the senior Singapore leader made his comments about the shift of the balance of influence. By the year 2025, China`s current GDP of about $2 trillion (adjusted for the undervalued renminbi) would be $16 trillion, and India`s current GDP of $700 billion would be about $5 trillion. Over the same time, the current U.S. GDP of $11 trillion would reach $21 trillion if it grows at the average rate of U.S. growth of the past forty years. Even if these estimates are well off the mark, they show a dramatic narrowing of the gap between Asia and the West. China is already the biggest trading partner for Japan, Korea, and the other key economies of Asia. Its influence will only grow from here, as will that of India.
To this must be added the demographic story. Europe is literally dying. Its people are aging rapidly, and birth rates are far below those necessary to maintain current population levels. By 2050, the population of Germany, for example, will shrink from the present 83 million to about 75 million. This will put a severe limit on European growth prospects. The United States, by dint of immigration and high Hispanic birth rates, will maintain small population growth, but it will age substantially over the next 45 years. Because of its one child policy, China will also begin to age rapidly in about 20 years. But half of India`s nearly one billion people are presently under the age of 25, and there is no one child policy here. Thus, in the long run, the 21st century could well turn out to be the Indian century. In any case, it will surely be the century in which Asia resumes its historical position of economic power and influence.
Clyde Prestowitz is the author of Rogue Nation: American Unilateralism and the Failure of Good Intentions. He is also President of the Economic Strategy Institute and a former trade negotiator in the Reagan Administration.)
Sridhar
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#415 Posted by rsridhar on September 8, 2004 7:22:52 am
re: this editorial in Daily Times
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_8-9-2004_pg3_1
Veeresh,
I have a question for u. Did u find Pakis in Pakistan paranoid about how people are pesecuting them because they are muslims?
The above link tells the story of the sole Paki woman athelete who ran in trousers (who knows why? Perhaps she had unshapely legs; perhaps the mullahs had warned her in private) felt she was discriminated in Athens because she was a muslim. Did u find any such thing while on your visit to Pak?
Sridhar
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_8-9-2004_pg3_1
Veeresh,
I have a question for u. Did u find Pakis in Pakistan paranoid about how people are pesecuting them because they are muslims?
The above link tells the story of the sole Paki woman athelete who ran in trousers (who knows why? Perhaps she had unshapely legs; perhaps the mullahs had warned her in private) felt she was discriminated in Athens because she was a muslim. Did u find any such thing while on your visit to Pak?
Sridhar
#414 Posted by gujju1 on September 8, 2004 1:17:39 am
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#413 Posted by rsridhar on September 7, 2004 10:56:57 pm
re:#399 by sunlight
Most of us forget that the so called western Economists in the 60s were expecting India to be a basket case by the end of the century. They expected mass starvation due to lack of foodgrain. Those were the times of food scarcities, PL-480s.
By the end of 2000, India has bumper crops and exports food grains. Some of those economists, if still alive, must be scratching their heads!
Sridhar
Most of us forget that the so called western Economists in the 60s were expecting India to be a basket case by the end of the century. They expected mass starvation due to lack of foodgrain. Those were the times of food scarcities, PL-480s.
By the end of 2000, India has bumper crops and exports food grains. Some of those economists, if still alive, must be scratching their heads!
Sridhar
#412 Posted by veeresh on September 7, 2004 10:04:28 pm
Here we go again. This is like back to school again.
Just because I said ``Lahore pind ust`` or something like that, all you guys have your shalwars on back to front it seems.
Next I said ``I am in Lahore`` or something like that, all you guys pulled your shalwars up and started running for the school teachers.
Now Kasuri and company are in Delhi, putting Kashmir on the back-burner where it belongs in our larger interest especially because Bush & Putin said so, and you guys are inventing Hindu Rajput Indian surnames.
What next?
Let me guess - with the opening up of religious and tourist visas on a minimum spend basis, I can see how the next Kumbh Mela on the banks of all of the tributaries of the Indus would really get the wind up your sails, with 10-15 crore Indians croossing over for a bath and a bit of shopping.
The bus across Kashmir LOC, Gujarat and Rajasthan IB and the boat from Mumbai to Karachi are already on. Publications from India will be freely available in Pakistan, with newspapers at 2 rupees and magazines at 10 rupees.
And remember, you heard it here, the old DAWN office in Daryaganj, is being spring-cleaned and readied.
That would be poetic justice, DAWN now part of Bennet Coleman (where it belonged).
In the whole shmoozle, poor pind of Lahore seems to have got it in the neck. From being the only entry point, it is now one of many.
I`ve always said, I enjoy Pakistan and Pakistanis. But Lahore is still a small serai along the GT Road.
Just because I said ``Lahore pind ust`` or something like that, all you guys have your shalwars on back to front it seems.
Next I said ``I am in Lahore`` or something like that, all you guys pulled your shalwars up and started running for the school teachers.
Now Kasuri and company are in Delhi, putting Kashmir on the back-burner where it belongs in our larger interest especially because Bush & Putin said so, and you guys are inventing Hindu Rajput Indian surnames.
What next?
Let me guess - with the opening up of religious and tourist visas on a minimum spend basis, I can see how the next Kumbh Mela on the banks of all of the tributaries of the Indus would really get the wind up your sails, with 10-15 crore Indians croossing over for a bath and a bit of shopping.
The bus across Kashmir LOC, Gujarat and Rajasthan IB and the boat from Mumbai to Karachi are already on. Publications from India will be freely available in Pakistan, with newspapers at 2 rupees and magazines at 10 rupees.
And remember, you heard it here, the old DAWN office in Daryaganj, is being spring-cleaned and readied.
That would be poetic justice, DAWN now part of Bennet Coleman (where it belonged).
In the whole shmoozle, poor pind of Lahore seems to have got it in the neck. From being the only entry point, it is now one of many.
I`ve always said, I enjoy Pakistan and Pakistanis. But Lahore is still a small serai along the GT Road.
#411 Posted by tahmed32 on September 7, 2004 9:50:57 pm
sunlight #405 you write ``the practice of democratic values in India, however imperfectly, is perhaps the only bright spot in the region.``
Agreed. Not just the region, but the entire world. This is India`s great contribution to our troubled world today. And a major support to democratic forces within Pakistan.
you write `` thought the article says the opposite: that there is no difference between India and Pakistan except democracy; ``
Partly agree. I actually found the article to be interesting and positive. We got stuck earlier on one one little point of fact (where the writer, veeresh, kept unnecessarily sticking to something that is factually incorrect), but that should not cloud the fact that this is a well written and balanced article over-all.
Also, there are cultural differences between india and pakistan, both due to 50 years of separate development and also due to the same reason there are cultural differences within india: different regions have different cultural traditions, languages, ethnicities, and so forth. t these differences are something positive - the add richness to our lives, rather than something to be concerned about. With urbanization, a uniform urban culture is arising not just within india but within india, pakistan and the entire world. so, let us enjoy the differences while they last.
PS: It is nice to have a civilized discussion for a change with someone from India on this board. :-)
Agreed. Not just the region, but the entire world. This is India`s great contribution to our troubled world today. And a major support to democratic forces within Pakistan.
you write `` thought the article says the opposite: that there is no difference between India and Pakistan except democracy; ``
Partly agree. I actually found the article to be interesting and positive. We got stuck earlier on one one little point of fact (where the writer, veeresh, kept unnecessarily sticking to something that is factually incorrect), but that should not cloud the fact that this is a well written and balanced article over-all.
Also, there are cultural differences between india and pakistan, both due to 50 years of separate development and also due to the same reason there are cultural differences within india: different regions have different cultural traditions, languages, ethnicities, and so forth. t these differences are something positive - the add richness to our lives, rather than something to be concerned about. With urbanization, a uniform urban culture is arising not just within india but within india, pakistan and the entire world. so, let us enjoy the differences while they last.
PS: It is nice to have a civilized discussion for a change with someone from India on this board. :-)
#410 Posted by tahmed32 on September 7, 2004 9:50:56 pm
kkandk #406 This man gujjubania is indeed pathetic. He goes to all this trouble in trying to be clever and add to the bad blood between indians and pakistanis on this board - as if we already dont have enough - by pretending to be a pakistani (``LtCol.Rathore``) and talking about killing indians and about pakistanis being behind indira gandhis murder and all that crap. As i said earlier on, the less said about this man the better.
#409 Posted by rsridhar on September 7, 2004 9:50:56 pm
re:#387 by bongdongs
So, all u could find, after a diligent google search, is an article by some Ramachandra Guha in The Guardian. The article is about cricket and not about the economy.
Have u read the Goldman Sach`s projection of economic peformances of some countries in the future? Ever heard of BRIC economies?
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=319229
Excerpts:
1. The combined size of the four Bric economies is projected to exceed that of the G-6 in US dollar terms by 2039
2. Within four years China will have overtaken Germany; Japan by 2015 and crossed the .S by 2039 to become the world’s largest economy ( All in U.S dollar terms). Within thirty years India should have become the third largest economy in the world.
3. Of the current G-6 only Japan and the US will be among the six largest economies in the world in dollar terms by 2050.China will be the largest followed by the US, India, Japan, Brazil and Russia.
4. As per the paper, among the Bric economies, it is actually India that has the potential to show the fastest growth over the next 30 and 50 years, not China.
http://in.rediff.com/money/2003/oct/13shyam.htm
(The Indian economy is expected to overtake the United Kingdom and Japan by 2035, making it the world`s third largest economy after the US and China, according to a new report.
Global investment banking and securities firm Goldman Sachs says in the report that by 2050 China, Brazil, Russia and India will be ahead of the six largest industrial states in overall GDP.
``If everything goes smoothly, these four countries will become the most attractive region in the world for placing direct as well as portfolio investment,`` Goldman Sachs states in its report Brazil, Russia, India and China - A Road in 2050.)
Sridhar
So, all u could find, after a diligent google search, is an article by some Ramachandra Guha in The Guardian. The article is about cricket and not about the economy.
Have u read the Goldman Sach`s projection of economic peformances of some countries in the future? Ever heard of BRIC economies?
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=319229
Excerpts:
1. The combined size of the four Bric economies is projected to exceed that of the G-6 in US dollar terms by 2039
2. Within four years China will have overtaken Germany; Japan by 2015 and crossed the .S by 2039 to become the world’s largest economy ( All in U.S dollar terms). Within thirty years India should have become the third largest economy in the world.
3. Of the current G-6 only Japan and the US will be among the six largest economies in the world in dollar terms by 2050.China will be the largest followed by the US, India, Japan, Brazil and Russia.
4. As per the paper, among the Bric economies, it is actually India that has the potential to show the fastest growth over the next 30 and 50 years, not China.
http://in.rediff.com/money/2003/oct/13shyam.htm
(The Indian economy is expected to overtake the United Kingdom and Japan by 2035, making it the world`s third largest economy after the US and China, according to a new report.
Global investment banking and securities firm Goldman Sachs says in the report that by 2050 China, Brazil, Russia and India will be ahead of the six largest industrial states in overall GDP.
``If everything goes smoothly, these four countries will become the most attractive region in the world for placing direct as well as portfolio investment,`` Goldman Sachs states in its report Brazil, Russia, India and China - A Road in 2050.)
Sridhar
#408 Posted by sunlight on September 7, 2004 9:30:13 pm
#396 by kkkandk
The insensitive double-tongued do-gooder is bragging that a few people were killed in Gujurat and nothing else happened in the rest of India - what a wonderful and safe country for Muslims.
+++++++++++++++++++++++
I think you missed the point - he was saying that even though there was a pogrom in Gujarat against Muslims, the rest of the Indian Muslims did not explode into terrorism. This is because of their faith in Indian democracy. And he proved the last point via quotations from prominent Muslim politicians like Syed Shahabuddin.
In other words, he was saying that in a democratic country, Muslim anger need not explode into violence, but could be directed constructively.
To put it into still other words, he was not saying that Muslims feel ``safe`` in India. He was saying that Muslims feel empowered, that they have a stake in the system, and that they do not feel that they are the helpless victims of global conspiracies directed against Islam.
The insensitive double-tongued do-gooder is bragging that a few people were killed in Gujurat and nothing else happened in the rest of India - what a wonderful and safe country for Muslims.
+++++++++++++++++++++++
I think you missed the point - he was saying that even though there was a pogrom in Gujarat against Muslims, the rest of the Indian Muslims did not explode into terrorism. This is because of their faith in Indian democracy. And he proved the last point via quotations from prominent Muslim politicians like Syed Shahabuddin.
In other words, he was saying that in a democratic country, Muslim anger need not explode into violence, but could be directed constructively.
To put it into still other words, he was not saying that Muslims feel ``safe`` in India. He was saying that Muslims feel empowered, that they have a stake in the system, and that they do not feel that they are the helpless victims of global conspiracies directed against Islam.
#407 Posted by rsridhar on September 7, 2004 9:30:13 pm
re:#396 by kkkandk
So, dude.
Have Shias and Sunnis stopped killing each other in Pakistan? Do u want me to fill this forum with links to websites to show how many Shia doctors were killed by Sunnis in Karachi?
Do u wonder why muslims are not safe in Pakistan, an artificial entity created for some muslims of the subcontinent?
Sridhar
So, dude.
Have Shias and Sunnis stopped killing each other in Pakistan? Do u want me to fill this forum with links to websites to show how many Shia doctors were killed by Sunnis in Karachi?
Do u wonder why muslims are not safe in Pakistan, an artificial entity created for some muslims of the subcontinent?
Sridhar
#406 Posted by omar_r_quraishi on September 7, 2004 9:12:07 pm
sunlight: ``Since there is so much India vs Pakistan here, perhaps I should post the final word on the subject (by Thomas Friedman). ``
err FINAL WORD and that too by someone like Tom Friedman ??? dude you must be kidding -- surely you havent seen the light, sonny boy
kkkandk , wow kudos to you coz you actually went to the trouble of reading mr friedman -- cant believe he wrote `and nothing happened`
in fact, things are still happening -- arjun boy/sunlight`s probably forgotten that as of last week the indian govt reopened hundreds of cases leading to the riots saying that justice was not done and things were covered up -- this came after the supreme court of india ruled that the gujarat govt had not done anything to prosecute those involved in the massacres and after the govt in delhi said that a new inquiry would be done to find out the exact causes of the godhra carnage -- of course the RSS/VHP lovers here will dismiss all of this as a commie/congress inspired political witch-hunt
err FINAL WORD and that too by someone like Tom Friedman ??? dude you must be kidding -- surely you havent seen the light, sonny boy
kkkandk , wow kudos to you coz you actually went to the trouble of reading mr friedman -- cant believe he wrote `and nothing happened`
in fact, things are still happening -- arjun boy/sunlight`s probably forgotten that as of last week the indian govt reopened hundreds of cases leading to the riots saying that justice was not done and things were covered up -- this came after the supreme court of india ruled that the gujarat govt had not done anything to prosecute those involved in the massacres and after the govt in delhi said that a new inquiry would be done to find out the exact causes of the godhra carnage -- of course the RSS/VHP lovers here will dismiss all of this as a commie/congress inspired political witch-hunt
#405 Posted by omar_r_quraishi on September 7, 2004 9:12:07 pm
#381 by arjun_m on September 7, 2004 9:41am PT
#380 by morad on September 7, 2004 8:22am PT
But because it doesn`t reflect well on India and Indians. You are bringing bad name to your nation and her people.
Ooh..a bunch of pakis don`t think highly of me..what`ll I do? My future is ruined....India itself it ruined..what`ve I done...
so why the obsession then with interacting with a ``bunch of pakis who dont think highly`` of you ?
#380 by morad on September 7, 2004 8:22am PT
But because it doesn`t reflect well on India and Indians. You are bringing bad name to your nation and her people.
Ooh..a bunch of pakis don`t think highly of me..what`ll I do? My future is ruined....India itself it ruined..what`ve I done...
so why the obsession then with interacting with a ``bunch of pakis who dont think highly`` of you ?
#404 Posted by kkkandk on September 7, 2004 9:12:07 pm
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#403 Posted by kkkandk on September 7, 2004 9:12:07 pm
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#402 Posted by sunlight on September 7, 2004 9:12:07 pm
#392 by thmed32
Of course there is much that is good that is happening in India. That is something for all to celebrate. But the fact is that all of South Asia (Pakistan, India, Bangladesh) remains one of the most backward regions of the world.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I agree about South Asia being backward. But long experience has now led me to conclude that the practice of democratic values in India, however imperfectly, is perhaps the only bright spot in the region. All the good that you refer to as happening in India springs from democracy.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The undeniable fact is that you just dont find pakistanis with this need to prove themselves better than indians on chowk or to convince indians that they are doomed. but a significant number of chowk indians seem to suffer from this disease, rooted no doubt on inferiority complexes.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I thought the article says the opposite: that there is no difference between India and Pakistan except democracy; that India is getting better due to democracy and that Pakistan is suffering from ever increasing problems due to lack of democracy.
Of course there is much that is good that is happening in India. That is something for all to celebrate. But the fact is that all of South Asia (Pakistan, India, Bangladesh) remains one of the most backward regions of the world.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I agree about South Asia being backward. But long experience has now led me to conclude that the practice of democratic values in India, however imperfectly, is perhaps the only bright spot in the region. All the good that you refer to as happening in India springs from democracy.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The undeniable fact is that you just dont find pakistanis with this need to prove themselves better than indians on chowk or to convince indians that they are doomed. but a significant number of chowk indians seem to suffer from this disease, rooted no doubt on inferiority complexes.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I thought the article says the opposite: that there is no difference between India and Pakistan except democracy; that India is getting better due to democracy and that Pakistan is suffering from ever increasing problems due to lack of democracy.
#401 Posted by kkkandk on September 7, 2004 9:12:07 pm
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