Train to Pakistan 2004: La, Hore?

Re: # 494
India does not allow Euro 1 model manufacturing now. Most of the Tata/Ashok Leyland/Eicher heavy vehicles are now Euro III compliant. These engines are of high compression ratio and with turbo-charger. I am not sure about the engine source. Ashok Leyland/Tata generally use european design (Mercedes or Fiat/Iveco). I think somebody has misguided you.

Re: # 494
India does not allow Euro 1 model manufacturing now. Most of the Tata/Ashok Leyland/Eicher heavy vehicles are now Euro III compliant. These engines are of high compression ratio and with turbo-charger. I am not sure about the engine source. Ashok Leyland/Tata generally use european design (Mercedes or Fiat/Iveco). I think somebody has misguided you.

I noticed that during various discussions especially when it included Mr.Veeresh,the comparison between indian and pakistani vehicles was made especially concerning Ashok leyland and hinopak buses. I wish to clarify certain points. Ashok Leyland as from the year 1999 started manufacturing a HINO Engine model no: WO6E (euro 1) under licence from Hino Japan to be fitted in its buses. I will not go into details for the reasons it did so. The WO6E engine has an output of 118 PS max at 2400RPM. Where as: Hinopak is a direct afiliate of Hino Japan and since 1998, Hino Japan owns the majority of shares in that company. Hinopak buses are made on the popular AK Chassis and incorporate Hino Engines of HO7D model which give an output of 190PS max at 2900RPM. The HO7D Engine is also used in Hino AK buses from Malaysia and Indonesia but has nothing to do with Ashok Leyland Hino Engines which are less powerful and features some differences in design. So please do not make comparisons between these two, if you need further details, ill provide u. I also wish to say that Indian vehicle manufacturers produce a much larger no of units and at a cheaper prices than pakistani manufacturers. BUT pakistani vehicles have a much better finishing and quality than indian vehicles. During my stay in pakistan for my studies I was very impressed by hinopak coaches/buses where as in my country where I travel in ashok leyland coach every day, it makes quite a big difference, especially in terms of speed. Believe me!!!

#467 by kkkandk
``I have a common American accent, mostly mid-Western, because I grew up in the States. I have not been subjected to vigorous searches that you are imagining...``
What is a common American accent, dude?
Enlighten me. Is it Texan, midwestern? If u grew up in the States, u should know this.
Anyway, i have closely interacted with the second generation Indian Amerian kids who are mostly pathetic. They have only accents to talk about! WE call them ABCDs, I am sure u know what that acronymn means.
If u are not strip searched, it is because people are confusing u with an Indian. Make sure they do not find out u are of Paki origin!
Sridhar

re:#472 by kkkandk
Hey kkkhand,
I am sure with your good looks, u can help Pakis create a Silicon valley that rivals Bangalore. But wait a minute. You did not say u had the brains, did u?
Sridhar

#482 by harish_hyd on September 10, 2004 6:43am PT
#479 by omar_r_quraishi

[aray haresh iyer jee i knew this was also coming -- that you obviously cant live without chowk it seems

---

coz allows you to vent your true feelings toward pakistan -- feel sorry for losers like you]

Man, where is your rebuttal? I know you don`t have any, just like the Paki govt. didn`t have any. In fact, you should be feeling sorry for yourself. You just can`t defend the perfidy that your govt. resorts to. That`s why you resorted to that lame rejoinder that never rebutted the Australian govt.`s contention that the wheat was not infected by Karnal bunt. And the fact that your posts are getting rejected/censored indicates that your frustration is growing and you`re resorting to abuse. Keep it coming man, I love it.


dude the rebuttal came -- u need to have eyes that are open to see it -- wouldnt expect it from the likes of u mr iyer --surely the aussie govt could have employed a better lobbyist than you harry potter jee-- thr censored post was in response to zahraJ and the reason i was surprised was that there nothing in it really to be censor as such -- perhaps i wasnt as deferential as the chowk editors would like it towards sanitary napkins and their unavailability at lhr airport -- needless to say harry potter jee, it wasnt at my rebuttal to yours which isnt even mine but the GoPs -- your such a lamer man -- just admit it that u cant live without the paki bashing on chowk

mahesh G post npo. 489 -- read the board backwards -- thats pretty much it
point taken tahmed sahib

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tahmed -
“In any case, I would welcome posts from you that rise above this india-pakistan ``chukh-chukh`` and set an example of maturity and good humor and originality and basic humanity. Who knows, you may inspire others like me to join in as well!!”

The problem we have are a few handful of fanatics who forget that 60% of Indian population lives in extreme poverty and that is about the same number of extremely poor in Pakistan. Can these numbers make anybody proud of anything? These numbers are actually humbling and then we see people here that are boasting about re-traded tires and soybean!

Harish_hyd and Mahesh- I can understand your anguish and I think you both are serious poster who may be in for some good natured jostle then some serious hate that constantly comes out from people like A-null, Arjun_m or veeresh. The problem is that every time you see sarcasm, hate and put down; you wanna respond to it in the same vain. Ahole’s post had nothing to do with a discussion between tahmad and sri. He is a hateful person and there are plenty of posts on this site that prove that. He has been abusing Pakistani posters for sometime and now all people are doing, are responding to him in the same tone. Like it or not, he will be taken to task every time he tries to bring his personal hate into his posts about Pakistan and the people of Pakistan.
In Pakistan, we have been dealing with the religious fanatics for a longtime. These Hinduvta fanatics like arjun, ahole, veeresh, harimau and many others are just the flip side of the Muslims religious fanatics. As hateful as religious fanatics can be.
Well- Arjun is a result of some retarded and a bad comedian cross. Nobody can take him seriously. If anybody spends time reading all Pakistani papers (including the letters to the editors) everyday and then finds some adverse quotes to reproduce here, he must be retarded and that is what Arjun is.

Tahmed #485 and #486,

You must have your eyes closed pretty much all the time to claim that Indians are here only to put down Pakistan and Pakistanis are only reacting.

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MaheshG #483 On your other point where you say I am generalizing, I dont think so - it is based on what I have observed for myself over the past 3-4 years on chowk. e.g., kkandk (in his original incarnation as barachota) had started off with very positive things to say about india. as did HP. or ahmedzai.

In any case, I would welcome posts from you that rise above this india-pakistan ``chukh-chukh`` and set an example of maturity and good humor and originality and basic humanity. Who knows, you may inspire others like me to join in as well!!

maheshG #483 The killing of female fetuses (after first having identified the gender through abuse of the sonogram) is a major problem in india and NOT in virtually any other country in the world including Pakistan? According to one washington post article i read a few months ago, there is now a ``bridal deficity`` of 25 million females in one region alone (i think it was the region between delhi and haryana).

I would not bother mention the primitive and downright evil practices that are widespread in india, except for the constant crowing about how great india and the constant attempts to portray pakistan in a negative light that so many of your countrymen are obsessed by on chowk.

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Tahmed,

Also, I do feel that most pakistani posters come to chowk for the same reason you and I did - to have a bit of fun, exchange thoughts, air views, but NOT to start insulting other people`s religion or country.

A major generalization if I ever saw one.

So, I dont see if in that context that was so much out of line - the really crass thing here is the way the real life problems of poverty stricken millions in india are ignored by these people as they cater to egoes.

Wow! the only way to show these people a mirror was to talk about sending female fetuses into space. That is indeed a real problem India is facing. Talk about a slap in the face! Now that all of us Indians know the truth we will strive to stop the govt. from putting female fetuses in outer space.

kkkandk,

When you are trying to swim in the river and it is full of big crocodiles, you learn to hate the fricking man-eaters. I harp on skin color and ``fairness`` because Hindu mythology and the Indian psyche revolve so much around them. If you want to put an Indian down, just remind him of how dark he looks.

Maybe Indians are obsessed about skin color. But, the only person on Chowk I see harping about how fair he/she is is you. I don`t know about Pakistanis but it certainly says a lot about you.

MaheshG, Istanbul is in Europe!

Thanks for the Geography lesson. I have also learnt that all Russians are Asians since a chunk of Russia is in Asia.

Iran means land of the Aryans

LOL! Talk about mythical constructs.

and yes, I am quite happy in the way I look.

This from a guy who alternates between bleaching and tanning himself and creates imaginary lineages from Europe.

#479 by omar_r_quraishi

[aray haresh iyer jee i knew this was also coming -- that you obviously cant live without chowk it seems

---

coz allows you to vent your true feelings toward pakistan -- feel sorry for losers like you]

Man, where is your rebuttal? I know you don`t have any, just like the Paki govt. didn`t have any. In fact, you should be feeling sorry for yourself. You just can`t defend the perfidy that your govt. resorts to. That`s why you resorted to that lame rejoinder that never rebutted the Australian govt.`s contention that the wheat was not infected by Karnal bunt. And the fact that your posts are getting rejected/censored indicates that your frustration is growing and you`re resorting to abuse. Keep it coming man, I love it.

omar: I think you are just tossing words around in calling subroto names. He is in fact one of the best posters we have ever had on chowk.

#459 by harish_hyd on September 9, 2004 7:40am PT
#446 by omar_r_quraishi

[now isnt that going to be so very objective about the whole issue]

Like I said in my last post, I knew this was coming.

[Now Harry jee, will you please stick to your pledge as mentioned in post no. 443 or will you disappoint us?]

Sorry to disappoint you Omar mian, but nowhere in the rejoinder is it mentioned that the wheat was infected by Karnal bunt. Did the Karnal bunt mutate into Tilletia whatever?

aray haresh iyer jee i knew this was also coming -- that you obviously cant live without chowk it seems

---

coz allows you to vent your true feelings toward pakistan -- feel sorry for losers like you

kkkandk -- thanks for my defence with friend- JEE here -- for some reason chowk`s editors seem to be censoring my posts -- and btw make that assistant editor -- there is only one editor at dawn and im not him

bye bye subroto jee -- like you said yourself , one moron less on chowk

``Product-wise, Pakistan`s fruit and vegetable export to India declined by 8.4 per cent to little more than 19.5 million dollars in 2003-04.

For the first time, Pakistan exported molasses worth 2.718 mil- lion dollars and petroleum and its by-products worth about 38.984 million dollars to India during the year.

Pakistan exported cotton fabrics worth more than 7.8 million dollars during 2003-04 against a little more than 3.7 million dollars in the previous year, showing an increase of 112 per cent.``

mollasses apparently make good meals for bears -- esp those which like to CREIP (factor 302 of course) up on the quiet via the hudiara drain .....

Hmmmm....lots of posts flying around while I was on vacation from chowk for a day or two.

And a surprise post from my old pal Subroto...where have you been lurking all these months? I will agree with you tht we badly need some real humor around here, and it was always fun to read your posts which were intentionally (and therefore genuinely) funny. I am flattered that you think I have lowered my standards here - but then people like you need to write more to keep things on track.

As for my joke about India (concerning sending female fetuses to space), I wrote that to bring down to earth because some indian posters who had gotten too carried away with their ``India is just like the US`` theme by talking sending indian astronauts to the moon. So, I dont see if in that context that was so much out of line - the really crass thing here is the way the real life problems of poverty stricken millions in india are ignored by these people as they cater to egoes. It reminds me of the way people sit inside airconditioned cars with tinted windows in islamabad, while the bare-foot children begging for food right outside their cars seem to be non-existent in their world. Perhaps, the sea of poverty (which is what south asia basically is, and will remain for another two or three generations I think) has dulled the senses of the ``desi elite`` and made it crass. This is the mindset that was got BJP booted out of office in India as the indian voters demonstrated they were less interested in stupid Great Power ambitions and more interested in their real life economic and social problems being addressed. So, I hope you will understand why I wrote that, and will not be offended.

Also, I do feel that most pakistani posters come to chowk for the same reason you and I did - to have a bit of fun, exchange thoughts, air views, but NOT to start insulting other people`s religion or country. kkandk, for example, in his initial posts on chowk wrote very postive things about India, and (as i recall) so did HP. I know that good posters from India (and Pakistan) dont stick around too long (Gresham`s Law applies on chowk: bad currency drives out the good), but maybe you can change that by sticking around so the discussion does not go down the drain.

In any case (whether you decide to contribute more, as I hope you will, or to do find some other website to spend your ``internet time`` on) thanks for all the great posts you have written and made the rest of us laugh.

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Soyameal to Pakistan? Cars, tea, diesel, buses, highways, tourists, Kumbh Melas, newspapers, magazines, mosquito coils, pharmaceuticals, coffee, dosas, and now soya too?

Gosh, there go your seekh kababs. And there goes your ice-cream too.

(For those who do not know, in India, soya is the favourite add-on to chicken and mutton seekh kababs towards reducing costs and adding ``body`` as well as that adhesiveness called ``lachak``. Beef kababs are not impacted because buffalo meat is a fraction of the cost of mutton/chicken anyways. Likewise, soya-milk reduces the milk and fat content as well as cost of ``ice-cream``)

Time to introduce Pakistanis to the joys of Venky`s readymade meats and Amul ice-cream.

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#451 by friend on September 9, 2004 6:34am PT
Ppl,
Another question. Is it considered funny at Dawn to append ``jee`` to everyname?

Or is it that only certain employees have this habit in order to distinguish themselves? Do they also clap in a similar distinguishin manner?

oh yes friend jee - in good old paki culture we address our respected elders with the suffix `jee` -- strange that you should find it funny -- and they dont do it to distinguish themselves but to impart respect to the person being addressed... jee !

It’s time to leave Chowk, if not forever, at least for a long break. The sheer negativity of this site is overwhelming and seems to suck participants of any positive spark that they may have. Humour is a wasted trait here and I am not talking about the scatological kind that seems but be much in demand. There was a time when good natured ribbing existed in midst of all the hate floating around but even that has changed. Brother Tauheed Ahmed you and I have had good interactions here but when I see you posting the following “Girls will be happy because they will be astronauts, rather than simply tossed in the garbage dump or whereever girl fetuses are tossed in India” – then quite simply it shows me how interacting on Chowk has lowered your standards too. I`d rather quit than reach a stage when I’ll be posting similar crap (pardon my French). The Indian morons here are fixated on the “size does matter”, the Pakistani morons on “How much more cultured and refined we are” while the rest of us simple morons watch from the sidelines. Well this moron has decided to forgo the pleasures of Chowk to that of his padded cell.

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kkkandk/467 - it`s not a poem, it`s haiku. With your Persian/Turkish (almost Italian?) ancestry, if you know a noodle you should know a sushi too, OK?

On antoher tack . . .I do agree with the general view here that your humour has sunk ever since you decided to make it a triple act with these other two relics. May I th4 suggest you continue your funny ones on your own? If you analyse carefully, you will see that you comeout with a decent funny, and then these two retards tend to stand behind you and say ``yay yay yay`` like some sort of chorus, only sadly their timing and punctuation is suspect.

I mean, I must admit, even I thought your hunter-bhaaloo analogy story was funny, but in the ad interim ad infinitum ad nauseum your acolytes and cohorts have successfully changed me from hunted hunter to victorious bhaaloo, which quite destroys the meaning of your joke, see?

I have a common American accent, mostly mid-Western, because I grew up in the States. I have not been subjected to vigorous searches that you are imagining - there are many advantages to looking European - thanks to my Iranian mother and Turkish dadi. I hope you are not mistaken for a Pakistani, but I heard you were quite dark, so you shouldn`t have any problems.

This is the first time I am hearing about Iranians and Turks looking like Europeans. Talk about having no pride in one`s looks.


The hate and venom genuinely felts by Indians against Pakistan is so evident on Chowk that it restores my own nationalist pride.

Your time would be better utilized if you do something about the hate Pakistanis have for Indians. Your constant harping on skin color smacks of inferiorty complex. Surely, being fair is nothing to be proud of.

Now go apply the bleaching cream.

Why do you need more? Didn`t it work the first time?

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``While Indians can barely (or bearly, in Veeresh Ji`s case) interact by reading and writing English, it is impossible to understand them when they are expressing themselves orally. The source of the problem has now been traced to their unique and atrocious accent that they all share...``
KKKandK,
Here is one of your compatriot`s take on the behavior of Paki versus Indian immigrant in USA. This is from the other forum (titled: Trailing End of the Middle Class at Shaadi Online by Raza Latif 09/08/2004) and i quote his lines:

``Not only that, I also noticed that these Indian immigrants were often at the receiving end of our witty remarks about their lack of an American or British accent or about their lack of sophistication when it came to wearing the right color of sneakers with jeans. My hypothesis is that that like in the case of Shaadi Online, such remarks are unfair and elitist. I would say hats off to India that it can educate people in its small cities and villages and equip them with the skills needed to work as valuable non-resident Indians all across the globe. As these people with a history of financial struggle, move out to foreign countries, they find and avail opportunities to improve their quality of life. India must be doing something right, if someone who has no foundation in the so-called area of sophistication and class, is offered the social mobility to work hard and come to the various centers of economic action of the world and work productively. Why don’t we see any of our people from the trailing end of the middle class here, working as engineers or doctors?``.

Mind answering his queries, butt bouncer?
Sridhar

Fine, maybe I am a bear.

But what we got here is The Three Stooges:-

a) One is the only single mediaperson in the world who runs when a cop shouts ``Boo`` and specialises in checking out crying actresses.

b) The second is a dual-identity-nick schizo who finds humour in female hygeine and is constantly sniffing and fascinated by rectii.

c) And the third, Mr 32 x 3 = 96%, expects us to believe PakGovt statistics like the percentage of people who want a Dictator to continue.

Once in a day they get together and sing their favourite ``anti-Pakistani`` song.

Larry, Joe and Curly Moe.

To get them to jump, just say the magic word La, Hore!

Never mind.

re:#449 by tahmed32
Agree with u entirely.
Infact, a good situation would be for Pakistan to export its cash crops to India and India to export foodgrains to Pak. The 2 Punjabs can complement each other`s deficiencies.
Barring this kkkandk guy (whose brain i think has been affected by bouncing too often in the stripclub!), few would seriously believe India`s foodgrain is contaminated.
Sridhar

re: #452 by kkkandk
You are a funny guy. Keep it up.
Talking of accents, what accent do u have? Does it ever change when u are stripsearched in the airports?
Sridhar

Rajat#456,
I second you!! But will dogs understand.

(the spite and hatred demonstrated by many indian posters on chowk that i have been having a bit of fun with on this board pales in comparison to the real losses suffered by both countries in terms of unproductive military expenditures and lost opportunities for mutually beneficial economic and cultural exchanges).

Tahmed #449,

I would really like to know what HP, KKKandK and Omar are doing. I am sure they are all drowning in brotherly love as is evident from their many posts.

Sri Sri, It has nothing to with productivity. Indians use their own manure for fertilizer. The dosa and achar mixed diet of oily Indians produces the most putrid excrement. Somehow this stuff helps the crops, but it is not recommended that the grains be used for human consumption.

Exactly, it is for the consumption of Pakis like you. You should be also thankful to us for the putrid excrement that is your staple diet.

#446 by omar_r_quraishi

[now isnt that going to be so very objective about the whole issue]

Like I said in my last post, I knew this was coming.

[Now Harry jee, will you please stick to your pledge as mentioned in post no. 443 or will you disappoint us?]

Sorry to disappoint you Omar mian, but nowhere in the rejoinder is it mentioned that the wheat was infected by Karnal bunt. Did the Karnal bunt mutate into Tilletia whatever?

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Ye dogs, leave the Bhaloo(s) alone

According to the International Financial Statistics published by the IMF (These are the statistics most reffered to by Macroeconomists when running regressions) India and Pakistan are on par at percapita income levels in nominal dollar terms. You can access the IFS for free during a trial period.

Dear ZahraJ
May I know what subject/s you have your degree in?

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Ppl,
Another question. Is it considered funny at Dawn to append ``jee`` to everyname?

Or is it that only certain employees have this habit in order to distinguish themselves? Do they also clap in a similar distinguishin manner?

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#425 by arjun_m on September 8, 2004 11:38am PT
#421 by omar_r_quraishi on September 8, 2004 7:23am PT

++
that`s another way of you saying that Pakistan should be part of India (where, you would wish wouldnt you, it belonged)
++

Yup..Indians are just dying to have Pakistan be a part of India..They are green with envy watching the special treatment pakis get at US airports..they can`t wait until Pakiland is part of India and then everyone gets the same treatment..

yup they are -- certainly your party is -- historical stand of your party shri arjun jee was and is (despite ABV`s acceptance of the lahore resolution) is that partition was a big mistake -- strange that this is a sentiment shared by many right as well as left wingers

veeresh jee: ``As I have said so often before, the InterNet is neutral space, but on the ground matters are different. `` -- oh yes it certainly is oh wise one -- and wont we find that out now :)

and by the way you`re not good as seeing through disguised sarcasm are you uncle jee -- just let me know in advance so we can have a major bear alert sounded for that day -- will ya oh wise one

harry potter -- trust you to step in now -- well the link that you posted happens to be from the australian government`s website -- now isnt that going to be so very objective about the whole issue


harry potter again: ``Of course, you will surely come up with stuff like ``the news is from Aussie media``, but show me a rebuttal of the test results in one Paki or international paper and I will stop posting on Chowk again.

Now we know who the A-hole is. ``

mr harish iyer, the link that you posted regarding the Australian trade minister`s announcement was dated June 8, 2004 -- On june 13, the rebuttal of the GoP was carried in Dawn, Frontier Post, The News and The Daily Times. The link for Dawn is http://www.dawn.com/2004/06/13/ebr16.htm

and the full text is


Wheat: rejoinder to Australian HC


By Our Reporter

ISLAMABAD, June 12: The Pakistan governement refused to accept the Australian wheat mainly on account of phyto-sanitary considerations in order to save its own wheat crop from contamination by fungus detected in the wheat, official spokesman clarified here on Saturday.

The other reason was the below-specification content of glutin to make it palatable as `chapati`.

Commenting on the statement issued by the Australian High Commissioner, he expressed his satisfaction over the fact that the former had admitted the existence at least one of the varieties of fungus that is called ``Tilletia walkeri``.

The black spores of the fungus were identified as such during a scientific test conducted at the National Agriculture Research Centre, Islamabad, under the supervision of an independent committee, which was constituted by Dr Atta-ur-Rehman, Adviser on Science & Technology.

This Committee was headed by another renowned scientist, Dr. Kausar Abdullah Malik, member, Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission and not by Dr Atta, as mentioned in the press reports.

The test was carried out in the presence of the Australian Scientists who had admitted the existence of ``Tilletia walkeri``. It was immaterial whether it was ``Tilletia walkeri `` or ``Tilletia indica``. The former was even a greater threat because it is an Australian variety of fungus that does not exist in Pakistan.

Its induction through Australian wheat could potentially infect Pakistani wheat that had no resistance against it, making it almost impossible to get rid of it.

One is reminded here of the unpleasant experience of Pakistan with the Mexi wheat inducted into Pakistan in total disregard of a renowned Pakistani scientist`s objections.

His prediction that this variety would introduce white fungus into Pakistan and menace its wheat economy for all times to come has been proved true. Ever since then, this disease takes a heavy toll of wheat crop every year not only in Pakistan but in neighbouring countries as well.

Regretting that the Australian side had tried to play down the issue by making the rejection of wheat an issue of whether it was fit for human consumption, the spokesman said, at no stage, did the Government of Pakistan say that it was unsafe for human consumption.

It was perfectly safe for humans and, therefore, no harm was expected to accrue from its consumption by the people of UAE, Indonesia and Sri Lanka that have accepted the same Australian wheat.

It poses no threat to their economy as they are not wheat-producing countries. As regards the objection to testing technique, it was enough that the microscopes had established the existence of Tilletia walkeri, a deadly contaminant of wheat.

The second ground of rejection was the low glutin content, the spokesman explained. It was only 23pc to 24pc below the minimum contract-specific limit of 26pc. There are several qualities of wheat available in Australia and the wheat with lower glutin costs of 25 to 30 dollars per ton less.

Such wheat can be used for making breads but is not good for ``chapattis`` that is the primary use of wheat in Pakistan. The Australians had not contested the fact that their consignment of wheat did not meet the contract specification of glutin content but decided to focus their argument only on which variety of fungus contaminates the wheat, the spokesman added.

As regards Islamabad`s refusal to accept third-party test of Australian wheat, he said the contract agreement had envisaged only bilateral settlement in the event of a dispute.



Now Harry jee, will you please stick to your pledge as mentioned in post no. 443 or will you disappoint us?


(strange waisay because I have seen letters in Dawn by someone with your name - must be you perhaps, and thought you would have read it a bit more closely)

friend its neither -- all able bodied men were called out for active duty this week after a bear was spotted swimming the effluent filled hudiara drain -- we are all just doing our duty `friend` jee to rid our country of this pestilence :) -- unfortunately our options are limited given that the GoP has banned bear baiting, or else that would have been fun

veeresh #441 that`s what i like to see - your writing about your illusions in a joking manner. it is when you present them seriously that i worry about you. ;-)

rsridhar #440 what i was referring to was pakistan panjab having moved into cash crops much more than east panjab - and that is reflected in item 3 of the points you made. you dont mention the subsidies, but as i said, agriculture in east panjab is much more subsidized than in the west.

on your points 1 and 2, that was indeed my understanding too - i.e. foodgrain productivity is higher in east panjab. also (although you dont mention it) my understanding that land distribution is more even in east panjab. indeed, it is these two things that i had mentioned to a friend of mine a few months ago (who happens to be a foreign senior economist dealing with both india and pakistan), and he had mentioned the two points i had made earlier. another individual (an economist with the pakistan government) had independently confirmed these points as well. so i assume they are also correct, although they do not contradict (as i said) your points 1 and 2.

the thing is: such comparisons of economic progress are win-win situations. if india is ahead in something, that is something good for pakistan, and vice versa. it is only the policy of military and political confrontation of the two governments that is a lose-lose situation (the spite and hatred demonstrated by many indian posters on chowk that i have been having a bit of fun with on this board pales in comparison to the real losses suffered by both countries in terms of unproductive military expenditures and lost opportunities for mutually beneficial economic and cultural exchanges).

HP #442 in response to your request, i matched AlephNull with the CREIP categories and believe he is inbetween numbers 420 and 426 (please see my post #232 where the defintiions - developed by kkandk - are provided). ;-)

#442 by HP

[This CREIP is trying to speculate on something he has no knowledge about. After memorizing the dictionary.Com, this CREIP has also memorized DAWN, the NEWS, the Nation, The daily times, and many other English newspapers from Pakistan and knows every thing about the deal.]

That you resort to abuse even without putting up a semblance of a rebuttal shows you have no concrete counter.

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2004/s1053360.htm

Excerpt:

``My feeling is that Pakistan has found that their crop is bigger than they thought, they really don`t need the 150,000 tonnes they bought some weeks ago from the AWB and are looking for excuses to cancel the contract.``

Although the Paki Govt. did pay for the wheat in advance, a cancellation meant the Aussies would have had to refund the amount.

UK tests clear Australian wheat of Karnal bunt contamination

Excerpt:

``Results from independent tests conducted in the United Kingdom have found no evidence of Karnal bunt in a consignment of Australian wheat rejected earlier this year by Pakistan, the Australian Ministers for Trade, Mark Vaile, and Agriculture, Warren Truss, announced today.``

Of course, you will surely come up with stuff like ``the news is from Aussie media``, but show me a rebuttal of the test results in one Paki or international paper and I will stop posting on Chowk again.

Now we know who the A-hole is.

#438 by AlephNull

“they did try to avoid paying the Aussies some months back on the plea of karnal bunt fungus”

Now this A-hole works for either:

A) The govt. of Pakistan, or
B) The Australian exporter.

He has the inside scoop! This CREIP knows everything about the deal.
First he tried to be knowledgeable about the car business and now this CREIP knows about the agriculture business too.

This CREIP is trying to speculate on something he has no knowledge about. After memorizing the dictionary.Com, this CREIP has also memorized DAWN, the NEWS, the Nation, The daily times, and many other English newspapers from Pakistan and knows every thing about the deal.
What a CREIP! # (Tahmed or KKKandK! can you provide the number for this CREIP now).
You know A-Hole, CREIP! If you wanna speculate on something how about speculating on this:
Figure out a way to separate Manure from the produce you eat every day.
A-hole.

Omar/421 - thanks for the invite, accepted graciously, I am going to be in Karachi sooner than planned, and shall surely accept your double gracious offer. As I have said so often before, the InterNet is neutral space, but on the ground matters are different.

I am even as I type this, truly, preparing my purple and pink 1967 Ambassador into a flying roof cut-away open car with rear bench and Reich-type rear wedge so that visitors from Pakistan can get a better view as I drive them around Delhi (instead of from inside a closed car, you know?). My volunteer driver is a close friend from Holland who bears an uncanny resemblance to Lord Mountbatten and has a period chauffer`s uniform which looks very much like that white stuff with gold and braid that the Man from Burma wore.

Now stop getting upset at me, please?

And start working on an imaginary scenario where the Kumbh is held simultenously with the Raiwind love-fest?

AlephNull #438 If you continue to be so sarcastic, you will give yourself an ulcer. Take a deep breath and say to yourself: ``banda ban! banda ban!`` (be a man, be a man). ha! ha!

re: Agricultural output: Indian versus Pakistani Punjab
AlephNull, Tahmed,
Please read the links and the excerpts.
I am just giving some links to put things in perspective. I hope i am not offending anyone.
http://www.dawn.com/2004/06/28/ebr12.htm
(Two of the main cash crops of the two provinces are rice and wheat. Pakistan`s yields in both crops are far behind the other Punjab. For instance, Indian Punjab has shown an annual production growth rate of 11.03 per cent for rice while it has been a mere 3.08 per cent for Punjab in Pakistan.

Indian Punjab produced 14.36 million tons of wheat in 1996- 98 from 3.3 million hectares while the output in Pakistan`s Punjab was 13.13 million tons from 5.9 million ha. Even in other periods, productivity on the other side of Wahga has been consistently higher.)

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/20030329/edit.htm#5

1. (The two Punjabs adopted the green revolution technology for wheat, rice, and cotton besides some other crops. One common method to measure performance is in terms of growth in output per acre. On this measure, the Indian Punjab led Pakistani Punjab in wheat (3.6 per cent annual growth versus 2.2 per cent) and the latter in cotton (1.6 per cent vs. 3.6 per cent) but outperformed rice (4.1 per cent vs. 0).

As a result of this growth, at the end of the first green revolution period (mid-1990s), the Indian Punjabi farmer produced 3643 kg per hectare of wheat which was nearly twice his Pakistani counterpart’s output of 1902 kg per hectare. In rice, the Indian Punjabi farmer’s output of 3426 kg per hectare was nearly three times the Pakistani Punjabi farmer’s output of 1215 kg per hectare. Pakistani Punjabi farmer’s poor performance in rice was because he was switching to low yield but high value Basmati rice needed for export.)

2. (According to a World Bank study by Ringku Murgai and Derek Byerlee and By Mubarik Ali from the Asian Vegetable Research and Development Centre, “It turns out that the difference in growth in the two Punjabs is largely because the Indian farmers use more inputs than their Pakistani counterparts. On average, the Indian Punjabi farmer applied 156-kg of fertiliser per hectare, twice Pakistani Punjabi farmer’s 86 kg per hectare. Also, the Indian farmer used more machinery (41 hours per hectare vs 15). But there was little difference in access to irrigation (91 per cent of total land under irrigation vs. 86 per cent). Indian Punjabi farmers appear to use more tubewells (104 per 1000 hectares vs. 26) but this may be illusory because the Pakistani tubewells are generally larger.”

In terms of mechanisation, irrigation, inputs like power, fertiliser and other pesticides, Indian Punjab has been consistently in the lead. Number of tubewells is three times more, as is the case with tractors.)

3. (Farmers in Pakistani Punjab did better in the production of cotton, some pulses and livestock in the final stages of the green revolution. The government short of foreign exchange aimed at long staple cotton for export and encourages farmers through incentives, as was the case with Basmati rice. India has focused on low yielding short staple varieties for home consumption. Here too, Punjab did well except in the last five years due to salinity of water and attack by blow worm.)
Sridhar

Tahmed #417

You are right. Indian Punjab is still languishing growing food crops while Pakistani Punjab has moved ahead into cash crops. Meanwhile Pakistan has had to import wheat (sharp businessmen that they are, they did try to avoid paying the Aussies some months back on the plea of karnal bunt fungus). I understand Pakistani Punjab is also the home of such enlightened institutions as Okara Military Farms. Do the serfs oops lessees grow cash crops on that model farm as well?

Rsridhar #435

I remember a report that Tavleen Singh wrote after her visit to Pakistan during the Lahore fake bonhomie of early 1999. She spoke of Lahore looking shabby and run down and of not being a patch on Delhi. I took her at her word then but perhaps there is some ancient intra-Punjab rivalry at work of which I have no inkling. She also seemed to indicate that the portions of rural Pakistani Punjab that she saw had fallen far behind Indian Punjab and Haryana in visible development. That would seem to be consistent with the economic indicators. Indian Punjab leads other states and the Indian average in most economic indicators though not in human development. Pakistani Punjab makes up about 55% of Pakistan’s population so would be a major contributor to Pakistan’s much poorer statistics. I was looking for confirmation on all this from Veeresh but what he has written so far is somewhat equivocal even though many of his observations have scions of the Pakistani ruling class foaming at the mouth.

kaurasach: rathore is gujjubania alias shamsul alias islamicextremist trying (as usual) to make up for the imbalance in morons by posing as a pakistani.

rsridhar #434 do you remember what they said? anyway, may both panjab`s prosper. as well as all other parts of south asia and the world. God knows the poor people deserve a break, regardless of whether they are in india or pakistan. (the hell with the cheapster desi babus, though).

re: my post # 420
Some errors in that post:
``...India (which now includes India, Pakistan, Bangladesh) had cornered about19-29% of world trade...``

Should read as:
``... India (which then included present day India, Pakistan and Bangladesh) had cornered about 19-21% of world trade...``
Sorry for the error.
Sridhar

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re:#417 by tahmed32
I had posted on Chowk (some months ago) the comparisons between Indian and Pakistani Punjab. Look it up if u Know how to search for posts in Chowk (my search yielded nothing). There are some interesting comparisons.
Sridhar

Firstly, I don`t know who this gujju fellow is as I am new here. Secondly I am who I am. Why would I pose to be someone else. I am retired Brigadiere in Pakistan Army. The reason why my nick is LtCol.Rathore is because I liked it when I was a Col. Less politics and more command. After being promoted it was less command and more politics. Well, is the hatred between 2 countries so much that people fake ID`s and then insult each other?
Well, that is beyond me, as I have always led a life of truth and honesty, as a true Rajput would. Please don`t ask me for my credentials. Go to Sialkot and then take a bus to Chawinda. There somewhere in between the Tanks you might be able to see the spots of blood I have shed for my Homeland. I was in 25Cavalry, commanded by the Tiger, Lieutenant Colonel Nisar. I don`t have to prove anything to anybody. Specially ungrateful Pakistanis who have forgotten the sacrifices given by their forefathers.
All I can say to you people is that none of you Indians and Pakistanis , have seen a war, or faught one. I have. I have seen death, have been fired at and have killed. So, my advice is propogate peace and love. I understand that there is a cultural divide, but we still have to be peaceful. War only brings about death and destruction.

Omar
//...that`s another way of you saying that Pakistan should be part of India (where, you would wish wouldnt you, it belonged) ...//

Omar seems to be the most excited member of the new Club named PMS (Paki Mutual-Admiration Sorority)

Omar dahling - dont worry. Nobody wants pakiland to be part of anything. Nobody wants to touch a wh0re with confirmed AIDS affliction (or a land with jihadi affliction) - not with a ten-foot barge pole. So take it easy.

But Bennet-Coleman taking over DAWN is possible. Just like that M2 motorway. Banias are very cunning people, you know. So from your empolyment point of view - start worrying.

Oh boy - entire Paki brigrade seem to be collectively in heat :)) I told you - Paki Mutual Admiration Sorority is a good idea.

Anyway - why is there so much bitterness/jealousy whenever an article/person says something positive about india?

Personally, I don`t really care much about the positive forecasts and high-priced Gartner Reports about how India is going to land of milk and honey in next 35/50/100 years. Because from the way the gov`t/parties are going right now - India has no chance in anything in next million years. I mean, come on, we have Laloos running ministries, a silly italian pulling strings from her kitchen ...... and best of all - we have a Prime Minister prostrating in front of the italian`s infant grand-son - as gesture of loyalty to the ``Family``.

Last heard on NPR - that southern province in China (called manufacturing mecca of the world) is running out of people to work in their factories - their economy is overheating.

And speaking of ``overheat`` - here in chowk we have a bunch of pakis overheating over a silly article that said something positive about their pet-hate India.

So pakis - don`t over-react - take it easy. Allah pubh has answered your prayers !! Hindus are not galloping anywhere soon. Rest assured - they would be right there with you pathetic pakis - at best may be a few steps up in the ladder in some ways.

Nikki #424,
Thanks. How does that compares with Pakistan? Is there a similar stats available anywhere?

#424 - Nikki -
Don`t worry - I found details on Pakistan & India
Pakistan

---

Roads and highways
Total roads = 251,845 kms
High type = 151,028 kms
Low type = 100,817 kms

% in highways = 3.5%
Length of highways = 8845 kms (account for 65% of traffic)

India

---

Length(In Km)
National Highways 58,112*
State Highways 1,37,119
Major District Roads 4,70,000
Village and Other Roads 26,50,000
Total Length 33,15,231
*National Highways are less than 2 % of network but carry 40% of total traffic

#424 - Nikki -
Don`t worry - I found details on Pakistan & India
Pakistan

---

Roads and highways
Total roads = 251,845 kms
High type = 151,028 kms
Low type = 100,817 kms

% in highways = 3.5%
Length of highways = 8845 kms (account for 65% of traffic)

India

---

Length(In Km)
National Highways 58,112*
State Highways 1,37,119
Major District Roads 4,70,000
Village and Other Roads 26,50,000
Total Length 33,15,231
*National Highways are less than 2 % of network but carry 40% of total traffic

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Hey people,
Are rumors true that Dawn has decided not to publish rants from few of its own employees and they have to come to chowk ......? Or is it just a case of under-emloyment?

And talking about roads, I do remember travelling on Bombay-Puna road in early 80s and it was a decent fast trip. I am note sure about its status now.

Daewoo highway in Pakistan must be great thing. Can some travel aficionado write about conditions of other highways in Pakistan (and India)?

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Let me guess - with the opening up of religious and tourist visas on a minimum spend basis, I can see how the next Kumbh Mela on the banks of all of the tributaries of the Indus would really get the wind up your sails, with 10-15 crore Indians croossing over for a bath and a bit of shopping.

The bus across Kashmir LOC, Gujarat and Rajasthan IB and the boat from Mumbai to Karachi are already on. Publications from India will be freely available in Pakistan, with newspapers at 2 rupees and magazines at 10 rupees.

And remember, you heard it here, the old DAWN office in Daryaganj, is being spring-cleaned and readied.

That would be poetic justice, DAWN now part of Bennet Coleman (where it belonged).



MAJOR BEAR ALERT -- haha

eerrr sorry to disappoint you shri veeresh jee but till last reports came in the ajk bus is off -- both countries have differences over what documents to use -- india actually insisted on using passports and in a sense admitting that AJK (or POK as the indian media calls it) was part of pakistan -- as for delhi munabao, im surprised at your sources/contacts dear bear jee because thats not happening for at least three years because the rail track from nagarparkar to the border itself has to be built from scratch -- as for Dawn being part of Bennet Coleman, that`s another way of you saying that Pakistan should be part of India (where, you would wish wouldnt you, it belonged) -- no such things happening any time soon -- but if you come to Dawn`s karachi office, i will show you around and of course also show you that `article` --

gujju you`re a bigger idiot to believe lt col rathore, unless of course its you in the first place -- rsridhar, there is another website out there i believe which you should probably expend your very many energies on -- www.indiaisthebestandtherestareshit.com

gujju alias shamsul alias LtColRathore alias muslimextremist: You are a liar. And like all liars, you think you are cleverer than you really are. Changing your identity on chowk is not as simple as changing nicks, you stupid man.

rsridhar #413 On food production, this has been an international success. Even bangladesh (where some terrible famines occured under the brits) is now free. The main credit goes to international agencies that developed superior foodcrop varieties (maxi-pak wheat, IRRI rice and others), and from which poor countries the world over, including india and pakistan, have benefitted. Fertilizers, pesticides, farm machinery have also made contributions. So India, like Pakistan, is by and large a beneficiary of these contributions of international agencies.

Where india is ahead is in land reforms - on the other hand, pakistan panjab is now ahead of indian panjab in the sense of having moved into cash crops (which are generally considered a step beyond foodcrops, and are more profitable) whereas indian panjab is focussed on foodcrops. also, indian agriculture (at least in the panjab, i am not familiar with other parts) is quite heavily subsidized by the indian government (mostly for political reasons of keeping food production up and of keeping separatist tendencies down), whereas pakistani agriculture is not (since here panjab IS the bulk of pakistan anyway, and there are no political incentives for the government).

The place where success in food production is most striking is in fact the US: at the turn of the 20th century, 50 percent of the labor force in the US was employed in agriculture. At the end of the 20th century, the figure had been brought to under 1 percent! and they were paying farmers NOT to produce, and thus to maintain farm prices.

veeresh #412 ``Lahore is a small serai ``. If a place of 10 million, and one with a vibrant culture to boot, is a small serai, I wonder what your definition of a city is. :-)

#410

It`s just an article I came across, didnt say it was my view. Neither do I believe reports coming from Goldman Sach`s, McKinsey`s or any other high-brow consulting places. Sometimes we Indian`s behave as if all the things mentioned in these reports: the million`s of international service sector jobs, the 3rd largest economy are all in the bag. There are many a slip between this cup and our lips.

re: The third globalization?
Many years ago, i was reading The Economist that had an article tracing the GDPs of the world economies throughout the second millenium. Guess who were the top 2?
China followed by India. China, throughout much of the second millenium had cornered about 29-30% of world trade. India (which now includes India, Pakistan, Bangladesh) had cornered about19-29% of world trade. Between the 2, they had half of world trade!
When British left India, India accounted for less than 1% of world trade. The figure stands at around 1% today.
The following 2 series articles detail how all this is going to change in future and the 2 nations are going to assume their traditional roles as global economic giants:
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=402657

(The Great Reverse - Part I
After two centuries of Western domination, China and India are poised to claim their places


Clyde Prestowitz
YaleGlobal, 2 September 2004



China - due in part to the silk trade - boasted the world`s most powerful economy in the 18th century Enlarged image

WASHINGTON: ``The balance of influence in this region is shifting rapidly to China - not yet the balance of power, but the balance of influence.``

That statement, made recently to me by a senior leader in Singapore, is an early indication of how a new, third wave of globalization is ending the era of the West`s global dominance and restoring Asia to its traditionally powerful and influential role.


The history of the past 500 years has largely been the story of the dynamism and expansion of first European and then American power. The initial wave of globalization was launched in the late fifteenth century by the early Portuguese and Spanish explorers. The high technology of that day was embodied in the Spanish galleon and the navigating skills that guided it. Using this technology, intrepid Iberian captains could go anywhere the wind blew, enabling the kings of tiny Portugal and Spain to lay claim to nearly half the world.

Soon thereafter, the Dutch and English developed the joint stock company and built the ``capitalist road`` by enabling the amassing of large amounts of capital on a relatively low-risk basis with the potential for very large gains. And the gains were sought largely in the East, where the legendary wealth of the Indies beckoned, for at this time, the standards of living in the West were well below those of the East. By the end of the 18th century, the countries of the European periphery had combined their technological leadership with low-cost labor - sailors from the lower rungs of society were routinely pressed into service - to acquire huge empires in Asia and elsewhere.


The second wave of globalization began at about the time of the founding of the United States, with the onset of the Industrial Revolution. The steam engine and new manufacturing technology multiplied productivity and wealth a thousand-fold. Over the next 200 years, this further accelerated the rise of Western wealth and dominance. In 1776, the year of the American Declaration of Independence, China still had by far the world`s biggest and most powerful economy, with the area we now call India and Pakistan following close behind. Indeed, at this time, Asia accounted for well over half of global gross domestic product. Industrialized mass production dramatically reversed the balance; by the end of the 20th century, the US and Europe accounted for two-thirds of global GDP, while Asia was responsible for only 20 percent.

In the 1990s, four developments laid the foundation for the third wave of globalization, which is now leading to the Great Reverse. In the wake of the Tiananmen Square incident, the leaders of China concluded that the only way to hold onto power was to bring China fully onto the ``capitalist road.`` India, seeing the rapid success of China, also decided to abandon its socialist protectionism in favor of getting on the capitalist freeway. At about the same time, the conclusion of the Uruguay Round of trade talks, along with China`s inclusion in the World Trade Organization and the opening of most countries to foreign investment, removed most of the classic barriers to the global flow of goods and capital. Finally, the development and deployment of the internet after 1995 largely negated time and distance as significant cost factors for a vast number of products and services.


China is now, without question, the location of choice for most manufacturing. Its huge population provides a continuing supply of low-cost labor. By widely opening the doors to foreign investment, emphasizing education of technologists, and providing major incentives for technology transfer, it has combined inexpensive labor with technology to create a huge competitive advantage similar to that enjoyed by the Portuguese and Spanish half a millennium ago.

This is not just a matter of low-tech, labor intensive manufacturing. On my recent trips to China, I have visited state-of-the-art plants for manufacturing semiconductors and other high tech products equal in quality to those produced in the West - and at less than half the cost. Moreover, in recent interviews, top Silicon Valley venture capital executives emphasized to me their plans to shift start-up companies` Research and Development activities to China or India as fast as possible. Indeed, some said they would not fund any start-up that lacked a China or India R&D strategy. The logic is simple: There are a lot of good technologists in those countries who can do much of the high-tech work at 10 to 15 percent of the cost in the West.


India has not yet become the same magnet for manufacturing as China, but it is clearly the location of choice for software development and many other services. Again, one should be careful of the conventional wisdom that thinks only in terms of call centers and grunt programming. For example, the British National Health Service recently announced that it is shipping all blood samples to India, where they will be analyzed and the results faxed or e-mailed to the appropriate medical facilities in the United Kingdom.

As a result of these kinds of development, both China and India have enjoyed annual GDP growth of about ten percent over the past several years. In fact, China has been racking up such growth for the past twenty years. Projected into the future, these growth rates show why the senior Singapore leader made his comments about the shift of the balance of influence. By the year 2025, China`s current GDP of about $2 trillion (adjusted for the undervalued renminbi) would be $16 trillion, and India`s current GDP of $700 billion would be about $5 trillion. Over the same time, the current U.S. GDP of $11 trillion would reach $21 trillion if it grows at the average rate of U.S. growth of the past forty years. Even if these estimates are well off the mark, they show a dramatic narrowing of the gap between Asia and the West. China is already the biggest trading partner for Japan, Korea, and the other key economies of Asia. Its influence will only grow from here, as will that of India.

To this must be added the demographic story. Europe is literally dying. Its people are aging rapidly, and birth rates are far below those necessary to maintain current population levels. By 2050, the population of Germany, for example, will shrink from the present 83 million to about 75 million. This will put a severe limit on European growth prospects. The United States, by dint of immigration and high Hispanic birth rates, will maintain small population growth, but it will age substantially over the next 45 years. Because of its one child policy, China will also begin to age rapidly in about 20 years. But half of India`s nearly one billion people are presently under the age of 25, and there is no one child policy here. Thus, in the long run, the 21st century could well turn out to be the Indian century. In any case, it will surely be the century in which Asia resumes its historical position of economic power and influence.

Clyde Prestowitz is the author of Rogue Nation: American Unilateralism and the Failure of Good Intentions. He is also President of the Economic Strategy Institute and a former trade negotiator in the Reagan Administration.)
Sridhar

re: this editorial in Daily Times
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_8-9-2004_pg3_1
Veeresh,
I have a question for u. Did u find Pakis in Pakistan paranoid about how people are pesecuting them because they are muslims?
The above link tells the story of the sole Paki woman athelete who ran in trousers (who knows why? Perhaps she had unshapely legs; perhaps the mullahs had warned her in private) felt she was discriminated in Athens because she was a muslim. Did u find any such thing while on your visit to Pak?
Sridhar

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re:#399 by sunlight
Most of us forget that the so called western Economists in the 60s were expecting India to be a basket case by the end of the century. They expected mass starvation due to lack of foodgrain. Those were the times of food scarcities, PL-480s.
By the end of 2000, India has bumper crops and exports food grains. Some of those economists, if still alive, must be scratching their heads!
Sridhar

Here we go again. This is like back to school again.

Just because I said ``Lahore pind ust`` or something like that, all you guys have your shalwars on back to front it seems.

Next I said ``I am in Lahore`` or something like that, all you guys pulled your shalwars up and started running for the school teachers.

Now Kasuri and company are in Delhi, putting Kashmir on the back-burner where it belongs in our larger interest especially because Bush & Putin said so, and you guys are inventing Hindu Rajput Indian surnames.

What next?

Let me guess - with the opening up of religious and tourist visas on a minimum spend basis, I can see how the next Kumbh Mela on the banks of all of the tributaries of the Indus would really get the wind up your sails, with 10-15 crore Indians croossing over for a bath and a bit of shopping.

The bus across Kashmir LOC, Gujarat and Rajasthan IB and the boat from Mumbai to Karachi are already on. Publications from India will be freely available in Pakistan, with newspapers at 2 rupees and magazines at 10 rupees.

And remember, you heard it here, the old DAWN office in Daryaganj, is being spring-cleaned and readied.

That would be poetic justice, DAWN now part of Bennet Coleman (where it belonged).

In the whole shmoozle, poor pind of Lahore seems to have got it in the neck. From being the only entry point, it is now one of many.

I`ve always said, I enjoy Pakistan and Pakistanis. But Lahore is still a small serai along the GT Road.

sunlight #405 you write ``the practice of democratic values in India, however imperfectly, is perhaps the only bright spot in the region.``

Agreed. Not just the region, but the entire world. This is India`s great contribution to our troubled world today. And a major support to democratic forces within Pakistan.

you write `` thought the article says the opposite: that there is no difference between India and Pakistan except democracy; ``

Partly agree. I actually found the article to be interesting and positive. We got stuck earlier on one one little point of fact (where the writer, veeresh, kept unnecessarily sticking to something that is factually incorrect), but that should not cloud the fact that this is a well written and balanced article over-all.

Also, there are cultural differences between india and pakistan, both due to 50 years of separate development and also due to the same reason there are cultural differences within india: different regions have different cultural traditions, languages, ethnicities, and so forth. t these differences are something positive - the add richness to our lives, rather than something to be concerned about. With urbanization, a uniform urban culture is arising not just within india but within india, pakistan and the entire world. so, let us enjoy the differences while they last.

PS: It is nice to have a civilized discussion for a change with someone from India on this board. :-)

kkandk #406 This man gujjubania is indeed pathetic. He goes to all this trouble in trying to be clever and add to the bad blood between indians and pakistanis on this board - as if we already dont have enough - by pretending to be a pakistani (``LtCol.Rathore``) and talking about killing indians and about pakistanis being behind indira gandhis murder and all that crap. As i said earlier on, the less said about this man the better.

re:#387 by bongdongs
So, all u could find, after a diligent google search, is an article by some Ramachandra Guha in The Guardian. The article is about cricket and not about the economy.
Have u read the Goldman Sach`s projection of economic peformances of some countries in the future? Ever heard of BRIC economies?
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=319229
Excerpts:
1. The combined size of the four Bric economies is projected to exceed that of the G-6 in US dollar terms by