The Bollywood Effect – is Reema the next Rani?

MaheshG2 #51,

Ahem...changing the goalposts again, I see. You make a flat claim like Kamal Hassan
is the best actor in the world (or some such thing) and accuse me of making tall claims.
Now that has been pointed out, your defense is that you have seen bundles
of Kamal Hasan movies and are able to stand in judgment. Do we at least agree that
I was not the one making sweeping claims ?

``You have seen just one and you think that`s enough for you to pass judgement on Kamalahassan`s acting skills.``

Assumptions again. How do you know that I have seen only one movie of his ?

Harish_hyd #50,

show me one great actor who has not made a fool of himself at least once.

Plats #49,

Atleast, I have seen enough movies of Kamalahassan and of other actors to make a comparison. You have seen just one and you think that`s enough for you to pass judgement on Kamalahassan`s acting skills.

MaheshG2 and plats8,

Kamalhasan is undoubtedly a very good actor, but sometimes he tends to overact. This has become rather rampant in his recent movies. I love his earlier movies like Sagara Sangamam (Telugu), Ek Duje Ke Liye, Sadma, Swati Mutyam (Telugu), and Nayakan (Tamil) but in almost every recent movie, he has overreached himself and looked like an amateur.

MaheshG2 #48,

You make this statement : ``Nobody in Bollywood (even Hollywood) can match his
acting skills.`` and accuse me of making tall claims ! Interesting...

Care to show what tall claims/unqualified absolute statements I have made on this
thread ?

plats #35,

How many Kamalahassan movies have you seen anyway? You have seen one, I gather, from your posts and yet you are all willing to make tall claims.

In India, DVDs are available fairly cheap (around 200-300 bucks for the pirated stuff, 500-600 at the organised retailers like Planet M). Nowhere as cheap as Indonesia or Thailand, where you can pick `em up at 100 bucks or less (my last lot was at 80/-, that`s about $1.75 each). Have heard that you get cheap stuff at Pondicherry ( a union territory close to Chennai) but not confirmed.

To answer Urstruly`s question, pirating is rampant. Most of the prints you see on cable are shot in movie theatres, complete with bobbing heads and audience laughter. I thought I spotted a couple making out on ``I,Robot`` on cable last night ;))))

Just wondering if I was taught psychology by you in Greenwhich before I left for Ireland. For mutual privacy at chowk, I would appreciate a reply at forever_dune@yahoo.com. I had a lecturer called Zainab Masood. I have a funny feeling it is you.
Adeel Husain

re: urstruly # 34

Videos and VCRs have become almost obsolete in India...it is very rare nowadays to see stores renting video cassettes...at least this is the case in Bangalore...it is mostly VCDs now...most VCDs are rented and sold illegally in India and every now and then there is a huge drive to arrest characters involved in this underground racket. But I think it is just a naam-ke-vaaste exercise designed to keep the movie industry happy. It is a lucrative racket with foreign connections (Dubai and Pakistan) and I think for such a large network to thrive successfully, the racket obviously has political connections. So naturally the naam-ke-vaaste exercises end up being what they are. For some reason, Aamir Khan movies seem to be more successful at not getting pirated. Also nowadays, Hindi movies come out officially on DVD and VCD much earlier than they used to. Like within a few weeks of their theatre release. This trend seems to be global as I notice the same thing with Hollywood movies too. Kazaa and other file sharing devices seem to have distributing companies running for cover.

Watching movies in cinema halls is treated as an experience in India rather than simply watching a movie. The lutf of this ``experience`` is considered watching a movie on a big screen with good sound in total darkness and privacy sitting in an air conditioned environment, conditions unavailable to most Indians in their daily lives. It is also a way for couples to get some alone time, away from joint families. Ticket prices in Bangalore are kind of biased, with English being most expensive at Rs. 75 in AC, Hindi at Rs. 40 in AC and Kannada at Rs. 15. For some strange reason, a city the size of Delhi has only about 20 odd cinema halls. However the PVR chain cinema halls are world-class, and kinda expensive at Rs. 100 a ticket. (This was 2 years ago).

regards

Kabuli

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re: 38 plats8

my comments were in response to your statement:

``Yes, icons they were, but actors they weren`t``.

I just wanted to show with the help of an example that thespians like NTR are considered very good actors. This is not to say that they did not make crappy films. But the fact remains that NTR and some other South Indian actors were and are very good. There are other South Indian superstars such as Balakrishna and the many Rajkumar sons (these sons by the way are among the the ugliest specimens of the human species) who though popular, will never be in the same league as their fathers.

I never said that ALL South Indian films are good. This is what I said:

`` I think regional movies have done very well compared to Bollywood. Almost every national award (not filmfare mind you, these are the national awards we are talking about here) goes to regional films. Bollywood unashamedly steals, copies and plagiarises from regional movies, especially those from the South.``

I was referring to regional movies, under which South Indian movies also occupy a distinguished place. I was never referring to the run of the mill regional movies, but to the significant # of well-made, thought-provoking ones that tend to be made originally in the vernacular languages. I do agree with how however that Bengalis seem to be ahead of everyone else in making good vernacular-regional cinema.

regards

Kabuli

Following is a link to a list all the Dadasaheb Phalke awards winners and the President`s Gold Medal (Swarna Kamal) winners. Read it and think what you will.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/nfa/storypage-report.htm

re: rajsinghi1 # 40 & 41

I think regional cinema is doing pretty well without the need for the Central Govt. to ``encourage, motivate and add commercial success too to the movies.``. Vernacular cinema does not suffer from a lack of commercial success and is quite popular, even the ``arty`` ones. This is in contrast to Bollywood ``art`` movies which bomb more often than not.

``By the way, lot of politics is involved when it comes to awarding National awards to movies in India. IIRC only few years ago there was big controversy on this and many things came out in the open. So National award is not necessarily a yardstick to measure whether movies made in particular language are good or bad.``

What is not affected by corruption and nepotism in India?...do you mean to say that vernacular cinema has more Godfathers than Bollywood? why would that be the case when the movers and shakers of Bollywood command such power and influence. Bollywood, with its vast resources and ties to the vast Hindi Cow belt, could just buy the awards. I think that vernacular cinema wins national awards inspite of the nepotism and corruption. It is a recognition of the lifelong achievement and service of Dada Saheb Phalke award winners to cinema.

The hue and cry you mention vis-a-vis the national awards was when Anil Kapoor, a Bollywood actor, got the national award for Pukar, a jingoistic Hindi film. That was when discerning cinemaphiles cried foul. This was during the Cow-belt rule of the BJP at the centre.

(``And yes, A.R. Rahman and more importantly his guru, Ilayaraja have no peers in the North.``

Would you care to explain what is meant by the above? What is so special about A R Rahman`s music which has not been found in the music in the likes of Naushad, Jaidev, OP Nayyar and some more? How A R Rahman`s music is superior to the music of few names mentioned before, or his knowledge of music more deep or better?)


I used the term peer as in music directors working today. Naushad, Jaidev, OP Nayyar were great; I only wish they were still around, so that cheats like Anu Malik wouldnt be in business.

I think it is very rare for vernacular cinema to copy Bollywood plots, though I did recognise in my earlier posts that Bollywood trends are copied by regional cinema, which I think is a good thing.

I agree with you that Indians have a lot more choice and are creative when it comes to clothing. I was just highlighting the fact that Pakistanis are a lot more creative and seem to work very well with what in effect has become their `awami` dress.

And at the risk of offending my Pakistani friends, I have yet to taste good Pakistani biryani. Having lived in Hyderabad for a few years, nothing compares to the biryani found in the houses and restaurants of that city. Pakistani biryani is almost always greasy and sticky.

regards,

Kabuli

Kabuliwallah

Post # 32

Quote:


``And yes, A.R. Rahman and more importantly his guru, Ilayaraja have no peers in the North.``

Would you care to explain what is meant by the above? What is so special about A R Rahman`s music which has not been found in the music in the likes of Naushad, Jaidev, OP Nayyar and some more? How A R Rahman`s music is superior to the music of few names mentioned before, or his knowledge of music more deep or better?

As to Hindi movies copying storyline/songs/plots from other regional language movies, well, it is a two way process. Regional language movies too find inspiration from hindi movies and many things get copied. Figures may vary here and there but overall traffic flows both ways.

Coming to creativity in salwar kameez, may I humbly suggest, watch some hindi movies of 60/70/80s and there is plenty of creativity in salwar kameez. Thing which should be kept in mind is that in India or Indian movies, dress is not limited to salwar kameez and they have lot of other type of dresses too to play around with whereas when it comes to Pakistan, choice gets limited comparatively.

Let me try to put this in slightly different way..It is like someone saying, Pakistan is excellent when it comes to making/cooking biryani comparative to India. Fine. But what is being ignored/overlooked or forgotten is that India does not come out only with biryani on the table but other mouth watering dishes like butter chicken, murg massallam, chicken nazuki, pudina laccha prantha and of course biryani too, alongwith many other items. And that biryani in no way is inferior to the biryani coming from Pakistan. But, because variety coming from India is so much that biryani becomes one of the dishes and not the only dish.

Above part (biryani+) has been said in a very light hearted manner...hope people do not take it seriously.

Kabuliwallah

Post #37

Quote:

``I think regional movies have done very well compared to Bollywood. Almost every national award (not filmfare mind you, these are the national awards we are talking about here) goes to regional films.``

National award, by its very nature/spirit should go more and more to regional language films and probably it does go. That does not mean regional films are better or worse than hindi/bollywood films. Awards like national awards are to encourage, motivate and add commercial success too to the movies. For example, when a movie or an actor/actoress gets Oscar, besides the name and fame, a particular movie and/or people associated with it get another boost to their careers.

By the way, lot of politics is involved when it comes to awarding National awards to movies in India. IIRC only few years ago there was big controversy on this and many things came out in the open. So National award is not necessarily a yardstick to measure whether movies made in particular language are good or bad.

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Kabuli #37,

``Illiterate people in rural Andhra were so mesmerised by his portrayals of Rama,
Krishna, Arjuna etc, that they used to cut out his movie posters (where he is dressed
up as mythological characters) and hang the posters in their shrines.``

I realise that you are not citing this as a testament to their acting prowess. Didn`t
the same sort of thing happen with the Ramayana actors ? Just to clarify, I have no
problem with South Indian films and/or actors. But a run of the mill South Indian/
regional film is made with exactly the same viewing public in mind (and panders to the
same denominator) as Bollywood. I don`t think there`s much scope for anyone to act high
and mighty - that`s all.

``Almost every national award (not filmfare mind you, these are the national awards
we are talking about here) goes to regional films.``

Yes, they do - but not necessarily to South Indian films. Bengal seems to be doing
alright in that area. But that doesn`t tell us how bad an average Bengali film is.

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re: plats8 # 20

(``South has its own huge movie industry and has produced icons like Sivaji Ganeshan,
NTR, Raj Kumar etc``

Yes, icons they were, but actors they weren`t.)

I think the entire landmass south of the Vindhyas would disagree with you on that. Physically attractive though some of them might not be, Southern actors such as Savithri, NTR, ANR, MGR, Mohanlal, Muhammad Kutty (aka Mammooty), Sivaji Ganesan etc are thespian titans. Please tell me if you have seen any movies of NTR where he plays a mythological character. Illiterate people in rural Andhra were so mesmerised by his portrayals of Rama, Krishna, Arjuna etc, that they used to cut out his movie posters (where he is dressed up as mythological characters) and hang the posters in their shrines. If you have the time and interest, definitely check out Bhoo-Kailas where NTR plays Ravana. Keeping aside South Indian sympathy for Ravana, NTR managers to portray the oft-maligned and misunderstood Ravana as a compassionate son, tender lover, fastidious bhakta and King.

I think regional movies have done very well compared to Bollywood. Almost every national award (not filmfare mind you, these are the national awards we are talking about here) goes to regional films. Bollywood unashamedly steals, copies and plagiarises from regional movies, especially those from the South. Remember all the Anil Kapoor hits which regularly win filmare awards?...almost everyone of them (Woh Saat Din his debut film with Padmini Kolhapure, Virasat, Eeshwar, Beta,) is a remake of Telugu/Tamil films.

regards

Kabuli

MaheshG2 #33,

``Nobody in Bollywood (even Hollywood) can match his acting skills. He is the most consummate actor I have ever seen and the most underrecognized.``

Another flurry of superlatives. Khair, to each his own - as long as you realise that ``I``
is the operative word in your statement.

I have a question to ask my Idian friends. How many people in India watch bollywood movies in theaters, and how many at home thru vcr. How is vcr industry in India. Is it protected by copyright laws like here in US e.g. or is it just one of the other underground economies. How much renting a video of a new movie costs. Are new movies readily available on videos.

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re: rsridhar # 18

just for the record, I have nothing against Bollywood influencing Southern movies...in a way it is good, because it encourages Southern movie makers to package their movies better, in terms of actors looking younger and fitter. You and I seem to agree that the storylines of southern movies are generally better and many of these hit Southern movies get remade in Hindi. K.Vishwanath and K. Balachander are two directors who have made and continue to make amazing movies in Telugu and Tamil. There are Malayalam directors who have done pioneering and path-breaking work. And yes, A.R. Rahman and more importantly his guru, Ilayaraja have no peers in the North. In my earlier post I was just pointing out that Southerners (as in people living in the South, not movie characters) have adopted certain things from Bollywood movies, such as wearing Shalwar Kameez (it is another matter that they are terribly tailored and look awful, Pakistani designers seem to do a million creative and amazing things with something as simple as Shalwar Kameez)...unmarried girls before the 90s used to wear something known as Onis, now almost everybody atleast in urban areas wear Shalwar Kameez (popularly known as Punjabi Suits in the South). Another thing I found hilarious in one Southern movie was a Bhangra number (with ugly readymade turbans; it really is a travesty when something as majestic and regal as a Sikh turban is turned into a commercialised, ready-made trinket), something that is becoming more and more common due to the heavy doses of Punjabi`yat` in Bollywood movies from the 90s up until now.

Vis-a-vis Southern populist superstars, my father is a huge fan of Sivaji Ganesan. But I always found him to go a little over-the-top in his movies. But yes, he was very talented and a great actor.

regards

Kabuli

plats #30,

How many Kamal Hassan movies have you seen anyway? Nobody in Bollywood (even Hollywood) can match his acting skills. He is the most consummate actor I have ever seen and the most underrecognized.

rsridhar #23,

``Nobody, i mean nobody in the North is a match to this guy`s talents. I should know
better as i am at ease with both North and South Indian cultures and now-a-days,
am comfortably settled in the West!``

So, you are certain that nobody north of the Vindhyas is a match for Shivaji Ganesan
as an actor ? Hmmm.....

By the way, being at ease with a culture has little to do with judging the quality of
films - jurors in most film festivals are often culturally far removed from the films
they pass judgment on.

``So, believe me, i am no big fan of Shivaji Ganeshan but i am just stating the truth. ``

Ah, the truth....now who could argue with that ?

By the way, I found Hey Ram to be terribly pretentious and Kamal Hasan, although
talented, has an annoying habit of over-reaching in his roles (and generally failing).

Omar #26,

Why the angst ? Chowk IS an amateur site, and within that realm it is exceptionally
well-run. They should`ve acknowledged that this came out in Dawn earlier, but now
that the point has been made, let it go.

Not the first article of its kind on chowk. But frankly, I think the author overestimates the effect of Indian media on Pakistani culture. At most it`s a sort of pop culture restrcited to a small percentage of the population.

BTW, just to clarify, Indian saas-bahu soaps are NOT rooted in any sort of reality, just Ekta Kapoor`s imagination. That woman has singlehandedly pushed the feminism movement in India (?) several decades in a remarkably short span of time!

Interesting to see the debate between Hindi cinema and Southern language cinema. One grouse of mine with Hindi cinema is that it does not depict an authentic Indian culture, probably because of the pressure/need to appeal to a pan-India audience. Only a small percentage of movies depict the ethnic background or setting of the characters in the movie. And most of these are either UP or Mumbai based themes. You would think that for movies in a `national langauge`, you would expect to see more movies with the main characters being from other parts of India as well, such as Bengal or Karnataka.
The regional language movies are more authentic, as they capture the ethnicity of the characters more accurately. For example, Tamil movies show characters speaking Chennai Tamil, Coimbatore Tamil etc. The dialect varies by region, class and caste - all of this is captured better in regional cinema than in Hindi cinema - which in my opinion is not in Hindi at all, but Urdu or at best, Hindustani. Also, very rarely do you see Hindi cinema showing the caste of a person, unless it is to caricature (the evil moneylender seth or village thakur, for example).

stuka jee
For the record, this article appeared in Dawn some time back -- at least a couple of weeks ago. All articles submitted to the paper are accepted on the condition that they are exclusive to the publication (a standard policy). When we publish material from other sources or even from online sites we attribute it to the original place where it was published. That is also standard policy. It is standard practice, and ethical, to attribute the original source of publication (which has not been done) and I should think that you probably know this, in your role as Chowk`s unofficial spokesperson. If this does not constitute plagiarism then I don`t know what does. A good example of a site being run in pretty amateur fashion, as the editors themselves claim (as in they are all not full-time Chowk editors).

sridhar-
The spirit of song and dance,and the melodrama,is Indian.This was not imported from anywhere,and will always be in Indian movies,North or South. Some of my friends have seen and appreciated the typical Bollywood kitch.I think it is a matter of ``ghar ki murgi``.It is unreal ,no doubt.But it does provide escape.I enjoy my Mystic River and i also enjoy Mujhse Shadi KArogi,not to speak of movies like Devdas.
What do you call Chicago-(which I personally found quite boring)a much appreciated movie not so long ago?
The appreciation in Hollywood of musicals is because all the realism is getting a bit dull and boring.Besides acting in Bollywood is like working in a circus.Riding horses,dancing around trees and fighting atop builings-all this in a day of work.I doubt if Al Pacino,Robert Di Nero,Clint Eastwood can pull it off. (Probably Johny Depp would.)

re:#21 by rajsinghi1
I am not talking about Bollywood just copying Hollywood`s ideas or music.
I am talking about aping. There is a difference.
Older Indian movies may have copied some ideas or a whole idea (i saw the complete copy of ``The Dial M for Murder`` in Hindi without any acknowledgement to that genius who made it in the first place), but it still retained its Indianness.
The recent Bollywood movies copy the western mannerisms, dress sense etc. There is nothing Indian about the present movies.
Sridhar

re:#20 by plats8
I do not think u read my post fully.
South Indian directors and movie makers have been making movies in Hindi and regional languages for many decades now. But to say that Bollywood influenced the south is wrong. South Indian movies are very different from the bollywood flicks. At least they do not ape the west.
``Yes, icons they were, but actors they weren`t.``
Have u ever seen Sivaji Ganeshan`s movies? Some of them are superb. His roles are diverse. In Raja raja Cholan, he acts as the King. In Gauravam, he acts as a brahmin advocate (in double role) and completely changes his mannerisms! In ``Thiruvarutchelvar``, the guy is a Shaivite saint, old, aging, senile! And does a superb job. Nobody, i mean nobody in the North is a match to this guy`s talents. I should know better as i am at ease with both North and South Indian cultures and now-a-days, am comfortably settled in the West!
So, believe me, i am no big fan of Shivaji Ganeshan but i am just stating the truth.
Even Kamal Hassan is better than the best Bollywood has to offer. Seen his ``Appu Raja``? or his Hey Ram? The guy is a natural. I think the only people who can be called actors in Bollywood are Naseeruddin Shah and Om Puri. But, both do not get to do any serious roles in Bollywood nowadays. I should also hasten to add that i do like some of Amitabh Bacchan`s recent movies.
Sridhar

The fears of an indian cultural invasion are over-stated. Bollywood movies are mostly escapism, something the average citizen of both countries need.
Pakistani entertainment is unable to compete with Bollywood , not due to size or talent, but simply because of religious reasons. this is the truth , whether one likes it or not. Female actors are looked upon as being a little better than call-girls. One of the many wonderful benefits of islamization.

As for the one who suggested,pakistanis should watch englsh movies, well, let them eat cake, too!

RSridhar

Post#18

Quote:

``Now-a-days, it is just aping the Hollywood.``


Bollywood/Indian movie industry has been following Hollywood almost from day one. Only thing is, earlier, medium of information of was not that easily available to the majority so this information/knowledge even when well known was not that well spread out.

If you ever get chance to read reviews of that time ofold movies , in many of the reviews critics used to give name of the english/hollywood movie from which Indian/hindi movie was copied/inspired. Even music directors of that time have lifted songs, composition of songs from Hollywood movies.

It is just that now people are becoming more aware of these things so they may feel that this is something new, whereas it has been going on for quite a while now.

Stuka #19,

The issue is not one of plagiarism, but one of ``double-dipping``, if you will. A little
disclaimer at the bottom would clear that up.

Rsridhar #18,

``South has its own huge movie industry and has produced icons like Sivaji Ganeshan,
NTR, Raj Kumar etc``

Yes, icons they were, but actors they weren`t. Let`s face it, popular south Indian
movies are about as classy as popular Bollywood movies, and Bollywood being the
1000 pound gorilla, it is difficult for regional movies to insulate themselves completely
from it.

Dost Mittar / Omar:

It is not plagiarism if the author chooses to getb his work published in two different magazines. The intellectual property is the author`s.

It would be plagiarism if Chowk lifted the article from Dawn or another individual (not the orginal author) gave it to Chowk claiming the work as his/her own.

Was the article in Dawn published in another name?

re:#16 by kabuliwallah
Are u telling me that South is being (or was) infuluenced by bollywood!
The only thing that influenced south was the good music belted out in the 50s and 60s. Now a days, every North Indian movie maker wants AR Rehman in his movie.
Having lived all my life in North, my years spent in postgraduation (in the late 80s) in Madras was an eyeopener. Southies do not think much of Hindi movies. As my uncle would say: these Hindiwallahs (the common phrase for all northerners) only dress well in movies but there is no acting!
Now-a-days, a north indian in south usually means a Bihari!
South has its own huge movie industry and has produced icons like Sivaji Ganeshan, NTR, Raj Kumar etc. There is nothing that crappy bollywood need to teach them. This is not to say that south indian movies are very good. But, it is definitely wrong to say that south has been influenced by north through movies.
The reason why Bollywood dominates in India is because of huge audience of Hindi speakers in India. Since most of the audience in the north is made of Bihari and UP Bhaiyyas is also the reason why Bollywood movies are mostly crappy and few have any artisitic value or few could be called classics.
Most big blockbusters of the yesteryears were made by South Indian producers keeping the huge market in the Cowbelt in view. So, Chitralekha was made in both Tamil and Hindi. so too were movies from AVM, Gemini etc. Remember Ram aur Shyam? It was made in Tamil, Telugu and Hindi. Remember Ek Duje ke liye? It was first made in Tamil/Telugu.

Bollywood does not depict Indian culture. It is an escapist culture or a ``wannabe`` culture. Now-a-days, it is just aping the Hollywood. It is a pathetic sight to see Hindiwallahs copying the mannerisms of the Americans, even wearing the T-shirts with ``Stars and Stripes``, babes going around half-naked, dying their hair to look like a blonde. The South Indian movies by and large show life as it is though some of them are pathetic too.
Sridhar

#16

kabuliwallah,

You are quite right (generally) about the caste ethnic groups in Indian cinema`s. But there is a difference here, and things are changing fast. Notice the Hindi movies made by the Yash Chopra`s, Kapoor`s and Barjatyia`s and they have the traditional caste/ethnic groups you mentioned. But then look at the recent onslaught of southern movie making in Hindi,.For instance, lets examine Mani Ratnam where his characters are almost definitely southerners. Take Ram Gopal Verma, his characters are from all over, Urmila almost always plays a Maharashtrian in his movies.

Even in the past look at Guru Dutt or Hrishikesh Mukherjee. You are focussing on just one particular style of Hindi movies (admittedly popular). The Barjatyia`s I guess are the worst of this lot.

Finally people make movies about things and people they are familiar with. The crux of the issue is to break the monopoly of a few families and make movie ``makers`` more representative of India. The recent move to grant movie making the status of ``Industry`` will help in this (I personally think movie families were themselves blocking this).

``...the portrayal of Hindus and Sikhs on that program can be described sadly as nothing but bigotry and hatred.``
Unfortunately this is no isolated case.

#7 sameer
This article is your typical leftist fantasy - reworking reality to fit their fuddy duddy perspectives. Indian entertainment is no where near as popular as it was during the Zia era. At that time Zia`s Islamizaition fraud created a huge vacum that the Indians could fill. Pakistan`s entertainment industry has recovered quite a bit since then and consquently pushed the Indians out. During Zia`s time the latest Indian hits could be heard all over Pakistan soon after they were relased in India. Not any more. The only Indian stuff I hear in the shops, on the buses etc is the old classic stuff by Rafi, Mangeskar etc.

..BUT, regarding your point about Bangladesh. For Bangladeshis Hindi-Urdu is a foriegn language. For Pakistanis it is the `national language` And as long as we continue to use Hindi as Pakistan`s national language, Indianizaiton of the Indus Valley, sooner or later, is inevitable.

Hi Zainab,

This phenomenon occurs in India also...as in North Indian culture ``invading`` South India and other parts of India...though vernacular cinema is strong and popular in South India, it has to be admitted that Bollywood movies are better packaged with more attractive actors...South Indian movies, though original and some with excellent storylines(many, if not most Bollywood movies are remakes of movies from the South), are not really that well packaged, what with overweight female actors and wig-wearing baldy and old populist male superstars...so it is only natural that Bollywood movies set the trends...remember that shalwar kameez was not really popular in South India even around fifteen years ago. But now almost every unmarried woman almost exclusively wears them. I have nothing against shalwar kameez, in fact if cut properly, it can be a beautiful ornament, but South Indian dresses such as Onis are rarely seen nowadays. Even this so called Bollywood/``Indian`` culture can be restricted to only certain groups of people in India. Observe the last names in almost all the movies and dramas. The characters are almost all from Kayasth and Punjabi Khatri communities what with the Mishras, Malhotras, Kapoors, Bhatias etc. Where are the Gujars, Jats, Yadavs, Dalits, Ahirs, Reddys, Mahars, Naidus, Gowdas, Lingayats, Tribals etc of India who form the vast majority?...the ``Indian`` culture that is portrayed in Indian media is in fact the culture of just a few groups such as Khatris and Kayasths. Even if other groups are portrayed, it is usually in the form of comic relief, for example Parsis, Madrasis (Bollywood term for ALL South Indians) and Sikhs. Anglo-Indians are usually portrayed as drunkards, loose etcetera, etcetera...Now just spare a thought or two for North-Eastern Indians, who dont so much as get a mention in ``Indian`` media...the closest thing you might have seen is maybe a Shaab salaaming Gurkha...I`m sure 9.95 out of 10 Indians would not be able to name the capitals of the seven north-eastern states...that is how much exposure they get in Indian media...So friend, relax, you are in good company... ``Indian`` culture portrayed in Indian media frustrates and challenges many Indian cultures and Indian identities. As someone has already said on this thread, one way to counter this ``invasion`` is to develop niche programs. Pakistani music bands have always set the trend in South Asia, what with the Hassan siblings, Vital Signs, Strings, Junoon etc. Though it has always amused me when my Pakistani friends feel outraged when they hear Indian artists perform what they claim as Pakistani songs: songs which have been part of our shared heritage for hundreds of years; marriage songs for example...Coming back to niche programs, Pakistani dramas of old were excellent...there is a Pakistani hole-in-the-wall restaurant where I often get take out from, in Houston...the other day, while waiting for my order, I was watching what looked like a partition era TV serial on GEO channel...the portrayal of Hindus and Sikhs on that program can be described sadly as nothing but bigotry and hatred. Far from following in the glorious footsteps of Tanhaayiyaan, Kasak etc, Pakistani Drama seems to be going in the opposite direction...but then again it was just one show and I maybe wrong...anyways, in India, Malayalam cinema is very powerful and often has first dibs on National Cinema awards...Sikhs have found their own niche through original and rehashed versions of centuries old Punjabi folk

regards

Kabuli

dostmittar: chowk staff:
This article already appeared in Dawn magazine. In fact, I had pasted it in one of my interacts on the Bachan-Nadeem board.

Thanks for pointing this out. Yes, this appeared in The Review a couple of weeks ago. It appears that Chowk has embraced plagiarism in a big way. Wonder why, when it is pointed out to them, they don`t add the attribution at the end of the piece.

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dost-mittar I think there is a niche market.For eg. Ghazals n pop music.Even the casual listener would know that-if Jagjit Singh n Pankaj Udhas are Diet coke n club soda then Mehndi Hasan n Ghulam Ali are rum n scotch.
In pop music we only have an occasional Euphoria and Silk Route,while Pakistan has a tradition of internationally visible talent like Junoon,Strings etc.
And then there is stand up comedy.Is Shekhar Suman any comparison for Omar Sharif?
In Pujabi folk music , we had Asa Singh Mastana ,Gurdaas Maan and Pakistan had Reshma.Here,I am only talking about those we know in India.
Renting videos of Pakistani serials used to be the rage not so long ago.I remember one which used to be my mother`s favorite-Ankahi ,the one about Sana Murad. And the comedy skit-Baqra Kisto pay.
In case of television,i think it is just a matter of packaging and promotion.For one, fluff is literally pushed down your throat on Indian TV and secondly there is a certain curiosity about Pakistan just as there would be in Pakistan about India. I strongly believe that a TV channel with Pakistan based programming and right promotion would do big in India,though I am out of touch of Indian TV for quite a few years now.
In movies,perhaps the difference in production values is much more pronounced.I dont know.

No wonder those who write for the trash magazines ( mostly they are in the english language--Low on I.Q, high on looking ``faarin``--the illiterates and ignorants of Pakistan)

People of Pakistan watched Indian movies and listened to Indian music, commerce flourished between the two countries, and intra-travel was pretty easy from 47-65. Now all this was happening when the wounds of cross-migration & killings were still raw. Most likely the movies worked more towards assuaging such pain.

This continued till the Indian movies were banned as a reaction more to the double standard exercised by the scheming & cunning Indian distributors who formed a clique against exhibiting quality Pakistani movies in Indian theatres ( after the ``naukar`` success).

Indian movies continued to be popular in Pakistan because , frankly, the quality, both content and production-wise, was superb. Even much much better than the Hollywood movies.Most of H/w movies, even today, are high on tech. and low on touch. Of course some superb movies were made by european directors or their first-generations in Hollywood as well.

SO? what do we learn: We learn that the movie-goers [ the public, the masses, the informed ones--not the goraagoochaaters who happen to be the most illiterate of Pakistan & the world over] keep their hatred for U.S or Indian policies as quite separate . Hatred upnee jagaa, movies upnee jagaa. People watch and do things which brings value to their time and money. They are NOT in the business of social-enginieering or applying faarin ``educatedness`` to test their ghetto pol-sci-lit kind of nonsense Unknowledge..the westernised kind.

If you are not keeping yourself informed by reading Urdu newspapers and not moving around among the Sattar-Edhi crowd and take pride in an apologetic sort of way in saying so often `` jee mujhhay urdu naheeN aatee``. Like that kanjRRee, Shabana Azmi, does.[ yes `wife` of Javaid Akhtar and d/o Kaifee Azmi]


It was around the 1965 war that commerce was affected and travel became increasingly restricted after that.

The revival and blooming of the Ghazal would not have been possible and the quality and creativity of Pakistani music & dramas would not have been possible without such free exchange.

The kanjaRR class has always existed and will always exist. People enjoy them but do not really want to do anything to do with them after the ``act`` and ``performance`` Anyone who has to trade-in the last frontiers of ones possesion must always be treated with contempt.
That is why one is always advised to keep the KanjaRRs in their place. They are simply performers, actors and therefore must be asked to keep to their station; even if wealthy and english-accented.

[of course Satyajit Ray and so many others and ANYONE who does not resort to exhibitionism and kanjaRR-puNN deserve all the respect and adoration ]

Pakistan’s new music industry has good prospects if they keep up the pace. There is a (relatively) small but growing urban youth subculture in Pakistan consisting of fans of local rock music, which doesn’t have any competition from across the border. Fusion of rock/metal with influences from folk/classical music has become a creative force on its own. Some of these artists are expanding their fan base to India, UAE, UK and North America as well through contracts with foreign record labels. It would be interesting to see how things shape up for Pakistani music in next decade.

As I had said at another thread, this trend is irreversible. Pakistani entertainment industry is facing the same problem that Canada is facing with the 1000 pound gorilla next door. The only solution for Pakistan is to develop a niche market and excel in it, as they did one time with the Urdu dramas. Or look west to Iran for some lessons.


chowk staff:
This article already appeared in Dawn magazine. In fact, I had pasted it in one of my interacts on the Bachan-Nadeem board.

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//..what will happen if we actually become close again...//

Exactly. That`s the paki army`s worst nightmare.

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Now I can understand the American pain with regard to piracy. If only all Paki`s just paid a rupee each time they watched a Hindi movie ....

I prefer English movies over Hindustani/ Hindi movies in the foreign languages movie category. No comparison with English movies!!! Hindi movies should be about as popular in Pakistan as they are in Bangladesh, Sri Lanka or Tamil Nadu. Pakistanis should watch English movies and learn English language.

I agree Amit. India and Pakistan are basically one. Patta nahi ham alag kyon ho gayey!

Wah wah, with such sweet words Pakistanis get a fire in their ass and then rage against the duplicity of us Banias. LOL!! Don`t u realize that the words above negate Pakistani identity and actually worsen their paranoia about Indians?

Look, India and Pakistan are like two lovers who have split up but have an amazing chemistry with each other that will never go away, no matter what you do. So it is futile to lament cultural invasions, when it is really the same culture. If after 57 years of separation and hostility it is like this, what will happen if we actually become close again?