A Case for Moderation

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136 Amjum_m

Good read. I can understand everything said in your post as i have followed the same path. Being a minority in Pakistan is not a pleasant thing and one can never reach the goals they would like to achieve. There have been times when i have been frustrated by Pakistani-Muslim Canadian`s who are very vocal on their rights. I would like to ask them if the ``cat got their tongue(s)`` when they were in Pakistan and when minorities were treated badly.

If you go to the churches in Karachi you`ll notice that they have grown small as most people have moved to the west. These Christians who moved here were mostly Anglo-Indians and Goan`s of Pakistani origin. The Christians that are left behind are mostly Punjabi Christians i.e. Muslims that converted in Punjab and have moved to other parts of the country. Their numbers have increased and are considered the most vocal among Christians. (vocal for their rights) They are the ones that are now filling in the gaps that occurred by people moving to the west.

Corruption is the biggest problem that faces Pakistani Christians as this is the same problem that Pakistan faces. Bishops and priests have be known to buy cars, houses and other material things from the money that is donated to the Church. Even though Punjabi Christian priests and bishops have be known to do the same but i think the future belongs to these people. The PC`s (commonly known in the Christian circle for Punjabi Christians) are very committed in their beliefs and are the future of Christianity in Pakistan. I have a feeling that they will be the ones that will make sure that Christians in Pakistan get what they deserve.

Till then minorities will be third class citizens.

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doublec:
well said on most accounts. I was living in the U.S. when 9/11 occurred, and it is true that during the days after the atrocity all Qurans were sold out in bookshops and online. Whether this has anything to do with a rise in converts cannot be verified - however, the American people have to be commended on their approach to actually learn about another religion and about people who had just attacked them.
The rights or wrongs of American foreign policy can be debated - and most objective analysts will agree that their have been many policies which have caused a great deal more harm than good. However, as many documents and countless research has proved - many of these policies are carried out in secret without the knowledge of 99% of the citizens of the country. For us to blame the American people - who on a whole are open minded - and are themselves a victim of paranoia, a biased media and a one sided school system - for us to blame them is ludicrous and unfair.
Injustice in the world are beyond any man`s control - and what must be admitted is the part we play and have played in contributing to our own downfall - unless we can balance both sides of the equation we can never have the answer.
Take care.
P.S. - i see a canadian flag waving on your personal page - is it fair to assume you are a resident of Canada??

Echoboom:

did you read the fine print:

Disclaimer
The BBC is not responsible for the content of external websites.

I just finshed reading all post in this article and have to ask you if you are coming up with an article that explains how to get Pakistan out of the troubles that she is in? You have said a lot in the posts below but it is high time you prove not to me but to yourself that you have a solution to the problems. If you have then lets see it. If not then why be negative to someone who at least has the courage to try to make a difference?

Vertex..... to you, yes, but not to me or many......

doublec,

`` first 19 Muslims destroy two beautiful buildings killing numerous people first 19 Muslims destroy two beautiful buildings killing numerous people...``

The WTCs were many things, but never were they beutiful. They were an eyesore.

doublec:131

It is good to ask. Thanks.
That was BBC. july 4 2004

http://cgi.bbc.co.uk/radio4/womanshour/2004_27_tue_05.shtml

# 129 Mr. boom box.... er i mean echoboom wrote:

Since the destruction of the twin towers there`s been a keen interest in America in the study of Islam, copies of the Koran are said to be flying out of book shops and significant numbers of Americans, particularly women, are said to be converting to the faith.

How ironic..... first 19 Muslims destroy two beautiful buildings killing numerous people and then flock to convert to the same religion. I presume you read this somewhere but is there any logic in what is said? It`s like saying that Palatines started converting to Judaism after the war in that region.

Gibran,

Just read you letter in Dawn (online). Keep up the good work.

To other who oppose what he says:

At least he has the guts to say such things not only on Chowk but also in Dawn. At least he is better off that most arm-chair warriors/politicians/or know it all people here on Chowk. Don`t discourage people who have more spark than yourselves.

It is these kind of news which the Secularist Musharrafs & Shaukat Aziz type of illiterates supress in Pakistan.

They know not as yet, that they are an endangering species, soon to be endangered.

---

Click here
these voice interviews are worth listening to.
Why has there been a surge of interest since September 11?

Sunday 4 July was American Independence Day, and a 20 ton block of granite was lowered into place at Ground Zero in New York. It`s inscribed with a tribute to the people who died on September 11 2001 and will be the cornerstone of the building that will replace the World Trade Centre.

Since the destruction of the twin towers there`s been a keen interest in America in the study of Islam, copies of the Koran are said to be flying out of book shops and significant numbers of Americans, particularly women, are said to be converting to the faith.

Sam Hardie met a group of converts in San Francisco to find out more.

Bina:

Wow. I had no idea.

this was simply one of the truest articles i have read in a while. Simply beauitful. I love how you were managed to place all your ideas in this article so perfectly. I am a moderate muslim, growing up in North America, and for the last 4 years I have been having the same arguments about politics, religion and society with my pakistani friends. Finally someone agrees with my ideas and puts on paper my vision of pakistan and my point of view of the problems facing my country. Good Job.

Stuka, Sudan has both oil and gold which certain people in the US and UK would dearly like to have control of.

aquaris

Thank you for comments, dear. As regards your query about killing of Kafirs, please see the following verses of the Quran: -
2.191, 4.89, 4.91, 5.33, 8.39, 8.57(for strike terror (in the hearts) of enemies), 9.5, 9.12.

As a matter of fact Quran is a dated compilation without indication of the dates of different injunctions. For example in the initial Makki period it enjoined patience and prayer, but when the Prophet (PBUH) came into power in Madina, Quran started giving orders for killing (Qattaal) of the kafirs and enemies. See history of Islam and read about the pre-emptive strike against the Jews of Bani Kuraiza. Quran also says`` Those who do not think are worse than animals``. Today Firouns and Yazeeds have been let loose but the Haamaani Mulla won`t allow even a false prophet to exist to tell us as to which order of the Quran is relevant at this time. As for the mad mulla, I narrate here an historical event:-

In the reign of Kublai Kan, a Mongol ruler of China, Islam had made its appearance in that country. It was reported to the Khan that the scriptures of the new religion say that the Kafirs may be killed where ever they are found and they treat us Mongols kafirs. Upon hearing this the Khan called for the religious leader of the Muslims. A mulla appeared in the court. The Khan asked the mulla whether it was correct that your books order you to kill us. The mulla said, `` Yes. It was so``. `` Then why dont you kill me``, said the Khan. ``We will do so when our time comes`` replied the mulla. `` But you know my time is here, the present one`` said the Khan and with this the head of the mulla went rolling, perhaps straight to
the heaven. After this the khan decided to make a preemtive strike and ordered that all muslims be collected and killed to nip the `evil` in the bud. Upon this some sensible muslims went to the Khan and pleaded that they did not treat the Mongols as `Kafirs` as they do believe in some super power (Mongols believed in the sky to be a super power) and thus saved the muslims from the massacre. Today, Chinese rulers do not believe in any super power even but they are our best friends.

A No-Win Situation
By PAUL KRUGMAN

Everyone wants to go to Baghdad; real men want to go to Tehran.`` That was the attitude in Washington two years ago, when Ahmad Chalabi was assuring everyone that Iraqis would greet us with flowers.

More recently, some of us had a different slogan: ``Everyone worries about Najaf; people who are really paying attention worry about Ramadi.``

Ever since the uprising in April, the Iraqi town of Falluja has in effect been a small, nasty Islamic republic. But what about the rest of the Sunni triangle?

Last month a Knight-Ridder report suggested that U.S. forces were effectively ceding many urban areas to insurgents. Last Sunday The Times confirmed that while the world`s attention was focused on Najaf, western Iraq fell firmly under rebel control.

Representatives of the U.S.-installed government have been intimidated, assassinated or executed. Other towns, like Samarra, have also fallen to insurgents. Attacks on oil pipelines are proliferating.

And we`re still playing whack-a-mole with Moktada al-Sadr: his Mahdi Army has left Najaf, but remains in control of Sadr City, with its two million people.

The Christian Science Monitor reports that ``interviews in Baghdad suggest that Sadr is walking away from the standoff with a widening base and supporters who are more militant than before.``(excerpt NYT)

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no wonder yesterday George Bush accidently said war on Terror was unwinnable -- Dad Cheney took the Mongoloid Boy in his Invader shorts -- by his ear -- to a corner and said hey stupido -- do u want another Saigon -- this time we retreat but never say US will lose -- go out and say we will win the War on Terror.......

we will win the War on Terror....we know Terror....we are the Terror of Iraqi children....we will defeat Terror with More Terror...

........................Elect Mr. Terror for FOUR MORE years of Terror....

arjun_m,

Well, as I said, some 50% or more of the US tax payers support a liar and a lunatic, so I`d rather they keep their money to themselves.

#120

you forget the most obvious stuka-bhai that disgusting black stuff that somes out of the ground.

the US companies have been left out of the Sudanese oil game. indian and chinese companies have grabbed the concessions. The Canadian company Talisman had to withdraw due to domestic HR pressure. This is the US companies road back in.

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Wht the hell should US march into Sudan? Have Bananas become a strategic requirement? That is if Sudan even produces bananas.

arjun_m,

``speaking of liberation, what`s the deal with darfur..should the marines march into darfur to liberate whoever the heck is oppressed there? ``

In principle, yeah, but considering those folks follow a liar and a self-serving lunatic, it`s best left to others. A good start would be to destroy the Sudanese air force, however the situation is complex...the terrorists (oh, excuse me, freedom fighters...) in the south will take advantage of the situation. Then we`ll just have a reverse scenario...

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#113 sigalph ``Iraq is free today and no amount of liberal-left hand-wringing can change the fact that Americans paved the way. Funny these folks never tire of second-guessing the success of freedom. ``


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Well I agree with your analysis that its Deen-e-Mulla which muslims are

following.....


But I would Like to Know where in Quran..... it says to Kill ......


Infact I have heard.....


1-If you Kill one Human you kill whole humanity....


2- There is No compulsion in religion ( that is do not force your religion on others)

3- Do not say bad things about Other religions



Well It does not goes with your arguments....

You cannot live by the book, Quran or no Quran. The world is too complicated for that. Recognizing that fact is the first step toward moderation.

Mr. Gibran has advised the Muslim to shun Hadees and confine theselves to Quran. I may tell him that what is being practiced, especially in Pakistan, is not Islam but Deen-e- Mulla which is actually the continuation of `Doure Jahilia`. Apart from this so much in Quran too which requires re-interpretation to make it compatible in the environment of 21st centuy when the world has become a global village. For instance, Quran says `Ashadaul kuffar wa rohma beinahum` which means you shoud deal severely with those whome you consider kaafir but should be sympethatic to tose whom you cosider to be Muslims`. Who is a kafir and who is a muslim has been left to the subjective judgment of a person. Again Quran says ` Kill karirs where ever you find them`, and now they are in ample supply within Pakistan not to speak of the world at large. I have tried reinterpret a small Soora which I will try copy here as a sample:
Sorry I could not copy here the Urdu traslation of Soora Maoon (107) here. I will try now in Roman Urdu:
`` Tu ne dekha he us shakhs ko jo Deen (jo kih nizaam he makhlooq ki kheirkhaahi ka) ko jhoota qaraar deta he. Pas yih woh shakhs he jo dhake deta he beaasra (yateem) ko aur naheen targheeb dilata oopar khaana dene ghareeb ke. Pas barbaadi he aise musallion (nimaazion) ke lie jo apni salat ke maqsad se bekhabr hein. Woh dikhawaa karte hein logon ke saame apni deendaari ka magar munkar hein haqooqe insaani ke.``

re nasah 103

Another self serving post whose intellectual shallowness is aptly matched by its historical myopia. The same argument that was used by the so called America First crowd of Charles Lindbergh who proclaimed that poor Hitler was no threat to anyone.

Yes, Vietnam was lost but thanks to those sacrifices etched on the Wall, Communism was given a fight and contained within the Indochinese peninsula. Those sacrifices were the building blocks of rolling back Red totalitarianism in the eighties and, finally, Communism`s demise.

Iraq is free today and no amount of liberal-left hand-wringing can change the fact that Americans paved the way. Funny these folks never tire of second-guessing the success of freedom.

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ferozek,

.... with your permission, i would like to quote you :

``It is the fate of Pakistan that it will never see or experience democracy and it will languish in the agony of religion. It is a fate, which even the gods cannot prevent. The principle intention of a religion is to create distinctions and to force upon a view of exclusivity instead of inclusivity in its followers towards other people. Religion thrives on dogma, because like anyother temporal power, it disdains questions, which are seen as a threat to its existence. Religion is nothing more than an autocratic expression of political authority masked under a different rationale.``

........... your ilogs are the only thing worth reading on chowk nowdays .............

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Is it true that in Pakistan when one disagrees with you they call you a jahil? an illiterate?
Wow, ive never been accused of being illiterate before, yet in 4 days (since my article was posted) - two people (echoboom and urstruly) have accused me of being jahil about what 20 times and counting. its comforting...thanks guys.

URSTRULY.....(people look at post #6) : wow, this man can even quote verses of the Quran...to Allah we belong and to Him shall we return. Im not sure of the context....anyway, Mr. Urstruly, please do not put words in my mouth, and I certainly do not need to explain your statement, which misrepresents my views. Please, go do what you want to do cowboy....no one is stopping you. Go write your own article, instead of runnign around Chowk, looking for anyone who dare disagree with you. Freak.

Echoboom:
Again this man takes me out of context (see post 107) - I was writing that in response to people who argue why Muslims always think around Islam.
But you are right about one thing boom shakala, I am not in favor of a backward Islamic state, if you are - please give me your address, i know a few travel agents who can arrange a flight to Saudi Arabia tommorrow...ofcourse, internet is banned over there...so you will not be able to come on chowk.com. So sad.
My friends, I call on both urstruly and echoboom to stop this pointless character assasination. I just cannot agree with your points....maybe cause Im illiterate. SEE IM HOPELESSS. so you cant help me, so stop trying to convert me to your cowboy cause, go find some others to play cops and robbers.
I have recieved a lot of mail commenting on these extremist elements on chowk, i urge those who emailed me to expose thse bin laden wannabes for what they are... all talk.

Nasah:103

Thank you for posting that. Now who in the world would not admire a `` Vali posheeda, and kaafir khulaa``
Jee chahtaa hai choom looN, baRRh kr nazar ko meiN.

Shukria bohut bohut.

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jibbe:9

1. No matter how hard we try, religion will play a huge role in Pakistan and in the Muslim world, to break away from this character will take many many years. For those who argue for complete secularism - do note that change takes time, and by arguing for another extreme in our societies will only create a backlash. Therefore it has to be a gradual process coming from within our country through educated means.

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-``-break away from this character will take many many years..``

So is this your mindset? --Never again invoke Quran while, in that same foul breath, wishing for demise of religion. No it will not take many years to kick out closet atheists & secularists from Pakistan; especially if they seek refuge in a muslim closet.

...``.and by arguing for another extreme in our societies will only create a backlash..``

Oh! so these are your `tactics`?--No the gallows and coffins are already being prepared for such traitors. Vietnam, Iran, Cuba or any other place where the United-Satans have left their finger-prints bear a testimony to that. Iraq is a show that is still running in its 10th season. And Pakistan is next..Will give you more numbers about millions of asylum seekers.

jibbe: tell me if you can read this .

Most likely you are those unfortunate illiterates in Pakistan who went to Ba-Ba-Blacksheep schools. Your only claim to education is that your arse, mind, and hearts feel comfy in the the satanic westernish lifestyle.
How do you keep yourself in touch with that majority whose welfare you seek by posing as a muslim?

---

..Now I want you in about 200-500 words to write your own article (or just post it here) - about how ECHOBOOM proposes we change the country. ...


No I do not have any desire to teach someone so characterless a person as yourself. Get lost.

Jibbe

Thank you for equating forces that are working towards democracy with suicide bombers. I can only feel pitty for you. You prove echo`s case about your jihalat by your own words. There is no use playing trumpet in front of this bhainse.

innalillahe wa inna elihe rajeoon.

Echboom says
``Just do a quick reality check you jahil and see if the heroes everywhere in all nations meet most of these criteria or not: LincolN? Churchill? Mao? Lenin? Ho chi Minh? Castro? Imam Khomeini? Jinnah? Gandhi?: even if one DISAGREES with their philosophies , one can`t just help but admire their INABILITY to compromise and put their own person above the cause.````

Very good boom boom. Though we may admire the above for their `inability to compromise` a few of their hard stances have done much harm to their people. Imam Khomeini and Castro - dictators who hold on to power even more stringently than the man you hate - Musharraf. Iran - 2 million refugess, asylum seekers in America, even more in Europe/Turkey. I may be illiterate, but if being literate means having to agree with everything you say - well hell, I rather remain in ignorant bliss. Though I maybe an illiterate, I have had the chance to go to Iran, and meet Iranians in England and the States, its their coutnry - so let me put it to you straight - they dont like their government either. And though they do not need America to overthrow the govt. for them - change should come from within either by the ballot or the bullet. As for Castro - his inability to compromise has led to similiar conditions in Cuba, do you know how many people try to flea to the United states every year, the number is in the tens of thousands.
Though Jinnah and Gandhi held fast to their belief, they resorted to tactics which maybe you should apply. Being educated (in the West may I remind you) - they succeeded without bombs or bullets. Maybe we can all learn something from them as they too were facing a beligerant superpower.
As for Churchill and Ho Chi Minh, great men who did not compromise as you say - however, when the time came, they asked others for help. Churchill the U.S. and Ho Chi Minh turned to Russia.

Leaders are not black and white. Since you yourself are Muslim, the Quran talks about things being done in stages. Am i right? My friend, lets put our bickering aside, and talk like men. The problem with you kind of people is that whenver someone dares suggest anything outside the box you live in - you people go crazy. ``HE IS A JEW, HE IS A CHRISTIAN, HE IS A NON MUSLIM, HE IS A TRAITOR. BLAH BLAH BLAH.``
Your friend urstruly argues for democracy - you are the case in point that it just cant work in Pakistan, because though I am not asking you to agree with what I say , you just cant accept it. Then you people wonder why no one listens to you - except for the ignorant or other disillusioned people who are impressionable and whose answer to problems is always militant and revolutionary. It is you kind of `so called Muslims` that the rest of us are wary off. Religion dosent make you a political genius or a good leader. Education might, but it also helps you become a tolerant and understanding human being without tunnel vision.

So echoboom I put a challenge to you right now. You have called me illiterate, and called my article a goraa influenced work. Fine. Now I want you in about 200-500 words to write your own article (or just post it here) - about how ECHOBOOM proposes we change the country.
For the rest of chowk, let me tell you what this joker is going to do, instead of focusing on the issue - he will rant on about how Muslims have been left behind and how the big bad white man has done this and that to us. Hate and anger has filled his mind.

Urstruly: again you make some good points, however, the consencus in Pakistan remains in favor of Musharraf. There are grumblings about his foreign policy sure, and then again things are not perfect in this country either - but they never were in the first place. Your cause is to take back the govt from the army and give it to the people - and I agree with you in this regard. However, our methods are what differentiates us. By suicide bombings and more insurgency we will embroil ourselves in civil war, destabilize the country and the consequences will be dire especially when Pakitan finally seems to be coming to some sort of a grip. So I support a gradual process, a moderate process (which many seem to believe an illiterate route) - but that is my conviction. You people love to cite Gandhi, Jinnah and Martin Luther King - their methods worked.
As for Hamas, Al qaeda - not ONE of their purposes have been realized, because any autocracy or power will not bow to a military challenge. WE have been down this route before, lets learn from history and try something different.
Cheers.

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A Waste of Blood
by Charley Reese

When you look at the Vietnam War Memorial, with those 57,000 names of dead Americans on it, you should feel anger.

All of those young lives were sacrificed by blundering civilian politicians and bureaucrats who made their deaths meaningless. They died because of the posturing and ineptness of politicians in Washington who sent them to war for no logical reason and with no grand strategy for winning.

Then, after so many deaths, the American politicians lost their nerve and pulled out, leaving the South Vietnamese government as easy prey for the North.

Vietnam today is a communist country. It could have become a communist country without 57,000 Americans dying in its jungles, mountains and rice paddies. At no time were the communists in Vietnam a threat to the United States.

Now we have Americans dying in another country that was not and never could have been a threat to the United States.

Iraq had a bad dictator. Lots of countries have or have had bad dictators. Some of the dictators were installed by the United States, and others were aided by it. Merely toppling a foreign dictator is not a legitimate use of the U.S. military.

Nor is the world safer for the absence of Saddam Hussein, as the present administration keeps saying.

That`s because Saddam was never a threat to the world in the first place. American politicians so demonized Saddam, you would think that he was a genius in charge of a large industrial country.

He is not a genius.

Iraq is not a large country. The only war Saddam ever won was against Kuwait, which is the geographical equivalent of a postage stamp. Saddam was a ruthless, but not overly bright, thug who held power in a small country with a divided population. He was a threat only to his own people.

Militarily, he was nothing but a straw man.

Defeating Iraq in both wars was the equivalent of a heavyweight boxer beating up a 3-year-old. There was no contest. There was never any chance of a contest.

Iraq never recovered from its unsuccessful war with Iran and was growing weaker and weaker under sanctions and bombing. It had no air force. It had no air defenses worthy of the name. Its equipment was obsolete; the discipline of the forces was weak to nonexistent.

Americans should not be deluded by the fact that the American news media made it seem like the defeat of Hannibal or a second Normandy invasion. It was barely more than a live-fire exercise.

The majority of the American casualties are from the resistance, not from the war.

And you tell me: What is being accomplished by these young Americans dying in Iraq? It`s not saving Americans from weapons of mass destruction. There aren`t any.

It`s not saving America from al-Qaeda. Saddam and Osama bin Laden hated each other and never cooperated.

Are these young people dying just to do a favor for the Iraqis?

The Iraqis don`t want us in their country. It`s pretty hard to justify the claim that Iraqis are grateful when they are busy killing their so-called liberators.

It might not be on the same scale, but it`s Vietnam all over again. A war in a foreign country that was no threat to the United States. No strategy for victory. A complete misreading of both the country and its people.

In the end, the Americans who die in Iraq will, like their brothers who died in Vietnam, have died for nothing. We`ll end up installing a replacement dictator. But even if the Iraqis have elections, those elections should not be purchased with American blood.

I would hope that the American people would be (expletive deleted) tired of politicians (expletive deleted) away the lives of our sons and daughters for stupid or hidden reasons. No American soldier should ever die, except in defense of his or her own country. Period. End of story.

And every politician who wastes American blood should be thrown out of office.

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Let us not loose our identity in the name of moderation, Jehad is not only of the militant type. To live and die by upholding moral principles is also jehad. To be able to do that you need to you have to develop the moral courage that all the great people had as mentioned in no 93. Who can dispute that our identity is Muslim: only we seem to be unsure. The rest of world is fairly certain and clear and all their policies and actions and wars are guided by the ultimate threat : A resurgent Islam. Terrosist acts are not sanctioned by Islam. We need to unify and inculcate a self regulatory regime whereby each individual is capable of performing his/her duty without being mislead in the labyrinth of confusion. Only then can we begin to prosper as a nation. In the meantime let us at least say both with deeds and words what is right and not support Musharraf and SA .

#97 by hamidm2
.//....... as much as i dislike the goons in khaki for making a mess of the political process, they seem to be a much lesser evil compared to the wild-eyed jihadis..//

Jihadis in pakiland are product of various wet dreams conjured up by Khakis e.g. strategic depth, thousand-cut death ...blah blah.

Khakis and Jihadis go hand-in-hand even though lately there have been a few fatricidal battles. If you neutralize Khakis, jihadis swamp won`t be too much of trouble to drain out.

[#92 by arjun_m on August 29, 2004 9:59am PT
* * *
One of the bombers was later identified as a member of a breakaway faction of Jaish-e-Mohammed, one of the main militant groups battling Indian forces in Kashmir. The group was founded with the government`s blessing in 2000 by Masood Azhar, a radical cleric. ]

Under pressure from US Masood Azhar is not being allowed to do ``freedom fighting`` in Kashmir. Somebody called Zargar (?sp) is given that role because he is Kashmiri and Masood is not. So that Musharraf can turn back and declare that it is freedom fighting not terrorism. What goes around comes back around to haunt you. After Bangladesh war Bangladeshi freedom fighters had refused to give up arms. Same thing will happen in Pakistan. What kind of people will do senseless indiscrimate killing? Criminals. Sooner Pakistan realises this better they will be. This is nothing. If one of these groups gains access to their nukes it will be Pakistan`s number after Iraq. After all US has already promised to use the doctrine of dealing with any ``gathering threat`` before it becomes real.

Re: jibbe #87

“For now, our fight is not to overthrow or further destabalize the `govt.` it is too bring reforms, slowly they might come, but gradually we will win.”

How long it will take? Any guess …..

Regards,


Faruk

........ as much as i dislike the goons in khaki for making a mess of the political process, they seem to be a much lesser evil compared to the wild-eyed jihadis and their leaders who have ``issued a fatwa that any Na Pak fauji who dies while killing his own citizen must be refused his namaz-e-janaza``............... these are the same people who before 9/11 were praying to their moon god for a taleban style government in pakistan ........ they ducked down into their spider holes for a while and now they are back, foaming at the mouth and bent upon creating hell on earth so that they can have their seventy houris in heaven ................. i think it is time to whack them again!....... absolute evil must be absolutely destroyed and, let us not forget, it is much easier to get rid of a general than a pope or ayatollah ...............

[Wake up call dude. Every time you talk of Ummah you talk of a civilizational conflict. Every time you talk of a MUSLIM identity, brotherhood, whatever you talk of a civilizational conflict.]

B.S. Only to those who think that this Muslim identity is a threat to them. Show me once where I threatened anyone else on basis of being non-Muslim. Your preceptions are bigoted if this is the case, not my sense of Muslim-ness.

[He did. And where was the Muslim mass movement telling him he was wrong????]

You are not new to chowk, so this question is certainly more or less a red herring. You very well know who these people are. The term I used was `bait`, the implication being that you were snagged by a flame-baiter. You also very well know that if either you or I had to jump in everytime someone was spweing hate, that would be a 9-5 job. We only ever jump in if there is a greater point to be made...

[ But I have seen enough of your posts on Muslim identity etc to reject any feeling of accomodation. This is nothing to do with partition, India and Pakistan. It has to do with identity politics and I don`t buy into yours.]

Dude, I ain`t selling anything. Go shopping if you really want to buy something...

Vertex:

``Slip-ups like his admit to at best a hostile attitude towards a ``tolerated`` (like a toothache) community. Let`s put it this way. If a Muslim decided to join the anti-Hindu dingbat wagon (a pakistani one no less), and started talking about wiping out Hindus from India he would be lynched on the spot. Yet, when the opposite is true, it`s merely ``venting``? ``

That is true. Look, you are right on this arguement I will give you that. It is also true that I took a Pakistani`s bait on Hinduism and talked of retaliation on Islam. In that sense I immediately bought into the Pakistani worldview rather than the Indian one. So you were right in your original point to me. And by nature I would have apologized.

But I have seen enough of your posts on Muslim identity etc to reject any feeling of accomodation. This is nothing to do with partition, India and Pakistan. It has to do with identity politics and I don`t buy into yours.

Vertex:

``you stand with the idiots who talk about ``civilizational`` conflicts. ``

Wake up call dude. Every time you talk of Ummah you talk of a civilizational conflict. Every time you talk of a MUSLIM identity, brotherhood, whatever you talk of a civilizational conflict.


``Hey, Jinnah was an idiot. He left you to our mercy didn`t he.]

Nope. We simply didn`t follow the piper...in fact, the tune he sung was that of warning of exactly what you just ``promised`` Urstruly... ``

He did. And where was the Muslim mass movement telling him he was wrong????

Jibbe:
O moderate. Listen again.

It is not yet entering your thick skull that it is YOU and YOUR kind who are illiterates in Pakistan.

Illitercy has NOTHING whatsover to do with words or numbers you jahil. It has everything to do with honour, dignity, rigidity & stubborness for principles [ remember Quaid-e-Azam?], unbendability, non-compromisabilty, in NOT being pragmatic, having honesty [ & NOT integrity as the western thugs teach now], in being EXTREMIST for FUNDAMENTALS [like following & enforcing the ten commandments of Injeel]

Just do a quick reality check you jahil and see if the heroes everywhere in all nations meet most of these criteria or not: LincolN? Churchill? Mao? Lenin? Ho chi Minh? Castro? Imam Khomeini? Jinnah? Gandhi?: even if one DISAGREES with their philosophies , one can`t just help but admire their INABILITY to compromise and put their own person above the cause.

And here the illiterate and jaahil does not feel secure at home, and insists that without the vardi he cannot protect the nation. What a baighairat. Does he not know that no human can escape death. It is DEATH which shadows every human & no amount of security is sufficient. Does he not know that Pakistan and Islam are not dependent on whether he lives or dies? No wonder that the illiterate have no sense of his own mortal , temporal, and ephemeral limitations.

And this makes him and anyone of his type a Jahil,an illiterate? Understand illiterate?

By moderate some Pakis are looking for a loop-holes to Halaal their sharaab, juaa, and Haraam-khorees. Their zeal and extremism in being the pointers, poachers,and predators
of ``terrorists`` as defined by their Masters is there for all to see.

Illiterate of Pakistan:- adj.
Il-li-t-er-ate:- one who thinks that Islam is secondary to Pakistan.and/also ( sometimes) one whose mind, heart, and arse operate 5 to11 hours
behind Pakistani Standard Time, while residing in Pakistan. also ( sometimes) : those who nurse a desire to get screwed by the Western thugs & also be considered heroes & saviours.

In short any Pakistani who refuses to learn from the neighbors to the east and west: ( IRAN or INDIA): Look how these intelligent, bright, non-illiterates Leaders Walk, talk, and conduct themselves.

Then pay a close attention to the uniformed or suited-booted monkeys on their road-show on a leash several time-zones away.

Musharraf, Shaukat Aziz, and anyone who prefers Pakistan (geography) over Islam (belief) is illiterate.

I know that is very difficult for westernised scum like yourself to grasp all this with that anglo totaa-mainaa ``accent``, duck-ass waddling, gesturing like ( `` I went faarin, got education there``). The village idiot also acts similarly when one talks of physics; but he admits his awareness about the reason for not understanding. You on the other hand as a jahil insist on teaching and reforming.

If you neither wear, walk, talk, or behave like a learned person but are desperately trying to be your masters clone to bring your DNAs in sync with ``ground`` realities--you ARE an illiterate, a jaahil, an ignoramus.

Or simply a moderate, a westernised moderate.

Jibbe
I appreciate your comments at 87. I had decided not to interact anymore because of the various comments being posted.
In thew past I agree that we as Pakistanis have not been following the correct way to govern but that does not mean that we should not strive for right. To be noseled through the current lot of jokers is not my idea of good governance and I am sure glad to see that I am not alone.
Cheers

``We must either classify General Musharraf as a visionary or an impotent leader; I personally think he is a visionary and question most people deeply on the performance of the government, and they will admit there has been vast improvements.

The Government needs to encourage people participation in other things besides government.``(the author)

How about `classifying` General Mushrraf as a Criminal Highjacker -- of a civilian government?

....as far as being visionary -- how about a visionary like General Suharto?

-- indeed the Government needs to encourage people participation in `other things` besides government -- and leave the Government for the Generals...to feast upon....

..did you hear General Kramat is coming to Washington DC as the Pakistan Ambassador to US.... some feasting...as they say: Halwai ki dukan pe dada jan ke nam fateha.....

I agree with Sameer: ``There is nothing more to Musharraf than US help improving the financial balance sheet. Both NS and BB would have supported USA on war on terror too, ``

88
//...We as a nation must also disown our shaheed and those soldiers who protect us at borders as well. Because they do not protect us and they did not die protecting us, but they died protecting a system that oppresses us....//

Very interesting ... Is urstruly alone on this, or are there other pakis also signing on? I mean - we have never heard this stuff before - ``disowning shaheeds and soldiers``. What`s going on here?

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JIbbe

I only support extremism because any effort to remove these despots from power is defined by them as extremism. I am left with not much choice now do I. Perhaps I was not able to convey my message to you as it shows despite your conciliatory tone. Let me try to put my message in another way.

No one loves a child more than his or her parents. Every time this child does his cute little things he delights his parents. The parents also give him all the love they can. A mother keeps awake at night, wipes his feces, feeds him, and takes care of him while sick or healthy. Similarly father works hard, he gives up his indulgences, he spends more money on his child than on himself. He makes extra efforts to educate his child and he puts new and better cloths on his child than he can afford for himself. This child then grows up, becomes strong, and independent. He forgets all the efforts and hardships his parents went thru to raise him. He disrespects his mother. He does not care about his father’s property and uses it for his indulgences. Sometimes while insulting his parents he goes to the extent of raising his hand on his mother. So a time comes when parents say enough is enough. As much as it bleeds their heart they announce that they are disowning their son from now on. They expel him from their house and tell him that they would never want to see his face again.

The relationship of military and people of Pakistan is like that of parent and child. Pakistani nation has raised this military feeding them with their sweat and blood. Pakistani nation ignored their own well being, their own education, their own health, and their own shelter so that our army is well fed, well educated, and has all the amenities possible that this poor nation can afford. But when this military grows stronger, instead of obeying the house rules, it ravages them, it disrespects the very nation who raised it by telling them that they are ignorant and illiterate and what do they know. It disrespects and disobeys blatantly. So a time has now come that the nation is saying enough is enough, we are going to disown you from now on. A process of this disowning has now begun. Musharaf’s referendum was the first evidence when not even 1% electorate came out to vote for his enlightened shenanigans. Shaukat Aziz’s election where human beings were hauled like cattle into voting booths is the latest telltale. This process will go further. We as a nation must also disown our shaheed and those soldiers who protect us at borders as well. Because they do not protect us and they did not die protecting us, but they died protecting a system that oppresses us. WE must divorce military for its good things along with bad things as well, if we want to protect the integrity of our house. That is the reason today when Na Pak army kills its own citizens and gets killed as well each and every newspaper in urdu addresses those civilians as Shaheed and those military men as JaaN-Bahaq. The GHQ then admonishes urdu press and orders it to address their dead as shaheed and the innocent people butchered as “JaaN Bahaq”. Smililarly, those Afghan freedom fighters who die while struggling to free their homeland from foreign occupation are now called JaaN bahaq and not Shaheed after directive from GHQ. When urdu press reports that each and every mufti has issued a fatwa that any Na Pak fauji who dies while killing his own citizen must be refused his namaz-e-janaza, the GHQ again issues directive to newspapers why this news was published.

Jibran, I humbly request you to open up your eyes and see where this country is going. Whether we at internet like it or not the nation has disowned this military. A time has finally come to choose sides. Be on the winning side. No one in the history of mankind has ever defeated people.

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Urstruly:

good points. the first one - I agree, and have argued for that in the article. MR. MUSHARRAF MUST come into public, he must come on T.V., radio, speeches, be in the public spotlight and reassure us.
The second thing this government must do is to stop alienating us the people and stop engaging in social engineering whereby they hold monopoly on all key decisions while having a puppet parliament.
I do not argue against these points, and if there are questions as to why I have not argued more strongly for them in the article is because it was aimed at a slightly different theme.
Unlike you, I will not support extremism, because as we gained independence by ballet not the bullet, so change must come in the same way now. For now, our fight is not to overthrow or further destabalize the `govt.` it is too bring reforms, slowly they might come, but gradually we will win.
Lastly, you are a Pakistani brother no matter what our differences, lets stop alienating each other by political, religous, tribal or communal divide. We are Pakistani first, then come our views as to how it should be.
Cheers mate.

Jibbe

I will promise to keep my religion at my home if you promise to keep your agnosticism at your home. But if you still insist then I challenge you, Musharaf and shuakat aziz to step into public like a mullah does every day from dusk till dawn and deliver your message to them directly. You shouldn`t have a problem with that if your message is so enlightening, now would you? After all, Bush, and what`s his name India`s PM sonia Gandhi, also go in public don`t they. Are their lives less precious than our leaders. Don`t they have to face the threat of terrorism domestically and internationaly as well? Too bad that despots and their arguments like `` However, democracy can never work in a large illiterate population, in a country where a man considers himself to be either Punjabi or Sindhi first before thinking about Pakistan. `` are getting outdated after invention of internet and satellite, now peple in the remotest part of Pakistan know that democracy in Pakistan can work, just like India, Bangladesh, and Tuvalu if army keeps its nose from where it doesn`t belong. And if people like you stop aiding and abetting rapists and thugs. Pakistan came into existence with ballet and not bullet when population of Muslims was even more illeterate than they are now. Are you trying to insult the insight of our forefathers as well now? Shame on you.

In the end I can only appeal to your good conscience to see the error of your own ways. Please do not sacrifice the future of Pakistani children for your short term benefits. Come join us. Leave those scared and besieged leadres of ours. Be our brother. be a Pakistani.

People like urstruly and echoboom have a brilliant idea to reform Pakistan, they say that the poor class has to take back the government from the army who are American agents and bad Muslims.

The only way to touch the masses in the mostly illiterate Pakistan is by religion. ``let pure Muslims run the country,`` they say. Since when does being a `good Muslim` - a very subjective character assesment a prerequisite to being a good leader. But people like this take advantage of the poor, illiterate by using religion as a way for their political objectives to be realized. These political objectives may include democracy. However, democracy can never work in a large illiterate population, in a country where a man considers himself to be either Punjabi or Sindhi first before thinking about Pakistan. The infrastructure for a democracy is not in place, the last thing we need is large complicated beaucracy.
Using religion to meet political ends meet is dangerous, because once in power, a lot of allowances need to be made for complicated, ambigous and backward religious laws over 1200 years old. For those who want to live in a backward country - please pack your suitcases and go to Afghanistan. Unfortunately people there never were to keen on a so called `Islamic state` with over 8 million of them running across the border to Pakistan where we have housed and fed them.

Religion is not the political answer, keep your religion in your house.

Again, Echoboom seems to like to attack my character, what a pathetic joker. Listen mate, you really need a visa to Afganistan where you will have no computer to log into chowk.com, instead you will probably be selling heroin or spend your life reading Quran in a madrasah somewhere. I propose all chowk members start a fund we can call it SEND ECHOBOOM TO AFGANISTAN - I will be the fist contributor to this righteous charity. cheers.

Wajahat

Post#74

Quote:

``Do detail your point about Pakistanis killing Palestinian, and enlighten us...``

Here is just one excerpt although there is plenty of material on this and is well documented too ...

Quote from elsewhere..

`` In fact, the bloody conflict dragged on for weeks. The Jordanian Army was not equipped nor trained for urban warfare. The 60th Armor Brigade, which carried the brunt of the initial attacks did not coordinate well with accompanying infantry and was ineffective. Moreover, units from the two infantry divisions pulled off the Israeli front were composed of a high percentage of Palestinians and small village East Bank Jordanians. Many of the Palestinians deserted and later constituted several PLO battalion-size units in southern Lebanon. The Second Division’s commander Brigadier Bajahat Muhaisein, an East Banker who had married into a prominent Palestinian family, quit. In an ironic turn of events General Zia al-Haq, then head of the Pakistani training mission to Jordan, basically took command and kept the 2nd Division operations going.``

Now surely, Zia ul Haq was not welcoming Palestinians with garlands! And of course he was representing Pakistan officially.

So it is difficult to see (does not make much sense) Pakistanis talking about Palestinian cause when they (Pakistanis) themselves have been contributing to the killings/overthrow of Palestinians.

Wajahat

Here is some more info .....

Quote:

1) Jordan, 1970.

The 1967 Six Day War was a shambles for the Palestinian cause as the IDF decimated the Arab forces, revealed the total military superiority of Israel and stole East Jerusalem and the West Bank from Jordanian control. Of Jordan`s total population in 1970, seventy-five percent identified itself as Palestinian. Nevertheless, both the Jordanian monarchy and the United Nations repeatedly called them ``refugees`` or ``displaced persons`` and denied them the right to fight for both the right to their lands in the west or for the creation of a democratic state in Jordan. Jordan, itself a creation of the British, relied upon oil monies and its subservience to the other Arab monarchies as well as to its exploitation of the highly-trained and literate Palestinian population for its own economic survival. Nevertheless, the Jordanians, like the Syrians and the Egyptians, utilized the Palestinians for their own purposes rather than allowing them to control their own destiny within a democratic framework.

Many Palestinians realized the need to control the movement, so Dr. George Habash founded the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and Yasser Arafat founded Harakat Tahreer Falasteen or Al-Fatah. Habash announced that ``the liberation of Palestine will come through Amman [capital of Jordan],`` mostly to challenge both King Hussein and a broken Nasser (both of whom came under Israeli hegemony by 1970, something recognized in the US Secretary of State Rogers` Plan). King Hussein (with help from Zia-ul-Haq of the Pakistani army) sent in his Bedouin army on 27 September to clear out the Palestinian bases in Jordan. A massacre of innumerable proportions ensued. Moshe Dayan noted that Hussein ``killed more Palestinians in eleven days than Israel could kill in twenty years.`` Dayan is right in spirit, but it is hardly the case that anyone can match the Sharonism in its brutality.

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[#78 by M.B.Z.Isphahani on August 28, 2004 7:07pm PT
einsteinwallah:``While we should follow the laws and punishments
set in the Quran, we should also exercise judgement
we have developed`` ]

Are you attributing this text to me? I did not write it. It is quote from the article. I do not understand rest of your interact. Can you be a little bit more clear? When I think it is clear and directed to any remarks that I made, I will respond.

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sucka,

[Hey, Jinnah was an idiot. He left you to our mercy didn`t he.]

Nope. We simply didn`t follow the piper...in fact, the tune he sung was that of warning of exactly what you just ``promised`` Urstruly...

[But heck if there is a civilizational conflict between Hinduism and Islam and south asian borders become irrelevant, I know where I stand.]

Yeah, you stand with the idiots who talk about ``civilizational`` conflicts.

rahul,

Soothing words from people like yourself are infinitely more valuable than the rantings of an imbicile, I`ll give you that.

``Anyway,why do you think you need reassurance from stuka to believe that India is your country?``

We don`t, but it`s none too reassuring when there is suggestions to the contrary. Slip-ups like his admit to at best a hostile attitude towards a ``tolerated`` (like a toothache) community. Let`s put it this way. If a Muslim decided to join the anti-Hindu dingbat wagon (a pakistani one no less), and started talking about wiping out Hindus from India he would be lynched on the spot. Yet, when the opposite is true, it`s merely ``venting``?

rajsingh1

The Pakistan Army has been complicit with a lot of things around the world. The question of the Palestinian refugees has been a long one for all the Muslim States and their treatment has been varied. Remember the decision lies with the Kings and Sheikhs who want cordial relationships with the West. Does that make the initial ethnic cleansing and continued persecution of the Palestinian refugees in their refugee camps by Israel any less off a fact...

Do detail your point about Pakistanis killing Palestinian, and enlighten us...

``The only trait you should follow is to mind your own business and not poke your nose where it doesn`t belong. The internal political problems of Paksitan are our problems and not yours so keep off. But if you decide to poke your nose anyway then develop some tolerance and patience to deal with an opposing point of view``

Urstruly

What the hell does your post have anything to with anything I have taken issue with? Never mind. India does not have a reason to poke a nose in Paki affairs. The Americans are doing a good enuff job.

Wajahat

Post# 11

Quote:

``If the palestinians had practical solutions, access to implementing practical solutions, why the Feck will those demented people kill themselves. Israel`s serial incursions into Palestinian areas and systematic destruction of Institutions, Equipment and systems, diallows any PRACTICAL SOLUTIONS to become a resounding fact.``

Pray what Pakistan or well wishers of Pakistan have got anything to do with Palestine/Palestinians given that Pakistan/is have been quite instrumental in killing and throwing Palestinians away from Jordan? Why this holier than thou/others attitude/statement? Is it, so long it is ``we`` who do the killing it is okay but when it happens to be others who are ``retaliating``, ``we`` come out with emotional .............

[* * *
While we should follow the laws and punishments set in the Quran, we should also exercise judgement; we have developed since the original texts were written and thus ...
* * *
The Quran, my friends, is a beautiful book and it is the only reason I believe in God, and it is the reason why Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. Read it, enjoy it, and see how tolerant and loving your God is, and see what he is not. He is not a God of Extremism, who dictates your every move, He is loving and just.
* * *
The Hadeeth often paint an intolerant picture, which is diametrically opposed to those you see in the Quran - the word of God. I do not advocate not reading the Hadeeth; on the contrary I support it. So read the hadeeth and if it makes sense, as your gut and heart that God has made will tell you, then follow it, otherwise be wary. ]

Reminds me a story, dont know true or false. Mirza Ghalib was once nagged by wife into praying. When he had just started unwillingly to sit down to pray his drinking buddy appeared almost as an answer to his prayer. Mirza said later to wife that he did not want to spoil name of Allah in thinking that he was answering the prayer. The point is if I have to exercise judgement, that means there is extra-Quran entity (one or more principles, my own psyche, heart etc whatever) which will give me a standard against which to exercise this judgement then why not just adopt that extra-Quran thing? If Quran may be granted the freedom of an evolving system then why have it at all, why not have a broad education which instructs about other religions also? Why not teach about science? After all this extra-Quran thing exists in all humans? Right? And that will guide everyone? Right? Let everyone choose and pick what to believe and what not to. After all there is this guiding spirit in all of us. It will guide us in our effort.

Okay that means we can have a Muslim reneging on his former religion? Because his heart said so? Can we? Or, will such renegade Muslim face music from painters of intolerant pictures? And may be more, like some stones may be?

Question is why let camel warm his nostrils if he throws you out of tent? After all you dont need camel. Religion comes with all its baggage. At some point one has to decide that whether one wants to have any of it. Who decides which parts are good and bad? There is no foolproof plan to keep out bad parts of religion. Only science has required cynicism which can keep process of revision alive.

Wajahat

In my previous post I meant, Pakistan was instrumental and active contributor to .........

Wajahat

Post # 20

Quote:

``The Terms of OSLO were prejudiced and one sided and am Feckin ready to have an argument with any you imbibers of Right Wing Journalistic Bullshiit about OSLO being Detroyed by Arafat. It was a NonPlan to start off with.``

Oh, the paper/document/agreement on which Palestinians, who are the affected party, signed, do not know a thing about their own country or the agreement but here comes a Pakistani or a well wisher of Pakistan, who would like others to believe that a Pakistani knows more about it? And this, when Pakistan did play its own role in killing those very Palestinians whose cause today it seems to be espousing. Is this not rich come from people like that in such an emotional ........... ?

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Rahul_Capri

Post#41

Quote:

`` Anyway,why do you think you need reassurance from stuka to believe that India is your country? ``

A valid, and an excellent question, in the circumstances.

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urstruly, the prophet osama, the jackass, and the one-eyed disciple ........

............ years ago, perhaps in my first incarnation as hamidm, i wrote this little fable (maybe it was a revelation) about urstruly leading the jackass that the prophet osama rode on his way to kandahar ..............or maybe it was osama leading the jackass while urstruly rode, chewing ganderis and spitting out the cud ..........in any case, at a dusty cross-roads on this road to nowhere, they met up with a one-eyed disciple and over a lunch of pungent goat cheese and week-old afghani nan decided to wreck havoc on the civilized world and horrible hindoos ......... the jackass heard all this nonsense and decided he had suffered enough fools and prophets and took off braying, ``astagfirullah, anouzobillah``.............. so the last time we saw this trio, they were chasing after the poor jackass in their sweat-stained night robes with towels on their heads and bathroom slippers on their feet ............

............ that was a few years ago and a lot of water has run down the euphrates since then ................... the one-eyed disciple has not been seen since; the prophet is hiding in a deep dark cave somewhere along the border between afghanistan and pakistan waiting for gabriel to bring him his next battle plans; the jackass joined the us special forces and was awarded three purple hearts and a silver star for delivering the latest issue of playboy under enemy fire and was recently appointed as the official mascot of the democratic party .............. but what happened to urstruly ?............... it seems he quickly found his way back to his cave in flint and now sits at the keyboard wrecking havoc on unsuspecting civilized folks and horrible hindoos who venture into cyberspace ............... his jihad continues .............. astagfirullah!

Suka

The only trait you should follow is to mind your own business and not poke your nose where it doesn`t belong. The internal political problems of Paksitan are our problems and not yours so keep off. But if you decide to poke your nose anyway then develop some tolerance and patience to deal with an opposing point of view.

HP

Your post does not make it clear whether your post is addressed to me as an individual or a group to whom I share some of my ideas with.

As far as I am concerned, as an individual, my opposition to army and Musharaf goes way back prior to 9/11. Prior to June 2001, I was not at all anti-army at all, and I must ashamedly admit that I had a soft corner for mushrafa as well. The day when Musharaf declared himself President, I stopped siding with army as well and that is before 9/11.

http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00001087&channel=civic%20center&start=140&end=143&page=15&chapter=2&order=0#1

During Zia ul Haq time, whose political standing may persumably be considered closer to my ideology, I have taken part in violent anti-government and anti-military protests and my back and my ribs still bear the scars from the baton charges that I faced. I believe in the power of people which lays dormant in todays Pakistan. I do not beleive in the shortcuts in the lives of nations. The path to progress lies only in the proper channel. People of Paksitan, since the extra-judicial murder of Bhutto have been disenfranchised and sidelined. We do not need messiah`s like Musharaf.

I have my faith in the people of Pakistan. Today, if people like Gibran Bham go to a village in Pakistan, they will be chased out of village by dogs, leaving their pants behind. These spinmasters for this government and the slave minded class in the society is like algae (Kai) on a pool of water, which carries no weight, and yet seems to dominate whole pool. But the reality always is that under that ugly algae there is a massive body of fresh water. This is our dirt, our liability and not an asset. And it is us the people of Pakistan who have to clean this mess up. Don`t you see, in America, where the President is the most powerful person on the planet has to beg for his votes, he has to go into the public despite being a prime target for terrorists, and he has to do all the shananigans that he is doing just to get elected. (i did not use the word re-elected delibrately). And we have a Prime Minister in Pakistan who addresses his constituents, let alone the rest of Paksitan, on telephone. No where in the history of mankind a PM is appointed first and then elected later. Don`t you even feel a shred of shame what they have turned our beautiful country into. Military as an institution is a curse upon Pakistan. It is incumbent upon military to come clean thru the mess it had made or it will be dealt with by the people. And wrath of people is the wrath of God.

urstruly
//.... territory a thosand miles apart from mainland with an enemy country in the middle is hardly a military conquest at all. ...//

Heck - I thought you are different from the Fauji jacka$$es you rant against...... You lost more than half your muslim brothers at the mercy of the barbaric bania army and this is the best excuse you can come up with : ``Thousand miles from the mainland``???

You know - you sound just like your much-hated americans in Iraq - because they too give similar excuses for why they continue to fail to neutralize the rag tag ``Mehdi Army in bathroom slippers``(your words).

And worse - I see no difference between you and your much-hated faujis .... because this is exactly what paki army does when it comes to `71 war : narrate elaborate excuses and sob-stories for the fact that they lost half your country. ( Come to think of it that`s only thing paki army do best - provide sob-stories and lame excuses for their gross incompetency. Now I see that disease has spread to you too. )

So there you are, the tough islamic warrior and saviour of the ummah ... shedding copious tears, putting up false bravado, giving pathetic excuses on how his ``martial`` race lost half his country to a bania army. Do you realize how miserable that is?? COme on - you can do better than this.

+++
//...We would rather die than bow to India ever...//

Really? Last time you bowed to India, begged for lives of 90,000 islamic warriors .... and yet, nobody died. No paki gave a sh!t - they just shrugged and went back to live their miserable lives as loosers.

[The Quran argues for tolerance, and while there should not be a total separation of church and state, there should be limits. While we should follow the laws and punishments set in the Quran, we should also exercise judgement; we have developed since the original texts were written and thus I question the aversion to still decapitate people, chop off hands, and stone to adulterers to death. ]

Quran koee aadamee nahee hai. Quran is not a person. So when you say that ``the Quran argues for tolerance`` I have to assume that it is your interpretation. Good. And then you are saying that you question aversion. Aversion means dislike. Question dislike means supporting. Right? So you support stoning to death? Wah Bhai Wah! Tolerance key salesman abhee stones ley key taiyyar hai. Unless you got your English screwed up here?

#48 by Urstruly

I have gathered from your various posts here, that it was not in the distance past that you were raising different Islamic flags to defend the army. You seemed to have repented since. You fervor still has not ebbed. It is just going in reverse. It is easy to take extreme positions but your position is not tenable. You cannot support political Islam and oppose the army in the same breath; at least not in the backdrop of Pak politics. Political Islam in Pak relies heavily on the Army to survive and it has been proven every step of the way. Unfortunately, the army in Pakistan had also been the mainstay of the extremist Islam.

I am not disagreeing with you on the army’s role in Pakistan and how it has destroyed the country in the last 50 years. Regretfully; your opposition to the army only goes back to the aftermath of 9-11. Everything, which the army did and you rightly mentioned in your post, happened before 9-11. Now you are denouncing the army because it was forced to go after the extremists under duress, in my opinion. If the Pak army had a choice it would still have stuck it out with the extreme Islam and that is where you really would like army to be; a supporter of the extreme Islam.

Hypothetically speaking, if today the Pak Army reverses its course and goes back to protecting the religious extremists like it did before 9-11, would you reverse your position and support the army again like you always did?

Ursturly:

``from becoming another Soviet satellite or worst an Indian underdog. ``

Sir, pardon me for not being intelligent enough but I read the statement as your preferring to be a Soviet sattelite as compared to being an underdog to India. Now, unless we mean different things, underdog refers to a power equation where a country ten times smaller to another is naturally an underdog to the latter. But a satellite essentially means revocation of independence, a slave stae. Hence u would prefer to be a satellite to the USSR then an underdog to India.

As far as bainyas are concerned, the baniyas have done a pretty good job charging up slopes and taking bullets in their chests for their country.

Baniya fauj broadened the war to all of Pakistan and retained Kashmir in 1965 war.

Baniya Faujis have risked life and limb and die every day to protect their land in Kashmir without using ariel bombing and gunships unlike their Mujahid counterparts in Wana.

Baniyas faujis took the heights of Siachen and hold on to it with tenacity.

Baniya generals stay on the front facing the enemy not inspecting drains in GB Road unlike their Martial Muslim counterparts of Pakistan.

So please tell me exactly what traits should we look at?