A Case for Moderation

Jibbe:
Laa`nat on you if you admire Tariq Ali--[the fifth columnist commie among muslims]

Your westernisation has done you in Gibran. It is hard for you to accept that you are an illiterate. Knowing and acting englishy is no longer a sign of being ``modern``. Gone are the days when your tattered and louse infested jeans were a sign of having been emancipated
and the duck-ass waddling an indication of ``everything goes``. Just ask that wretched terrorist-of-the-times Tariq Ali..the commie-kanjaRR, the atheist, the secularist.

You are one of the twin curses afflicting Pakistan & the colonised world:

1) The perception that an english-speaking person, especially if a goraa, is an enlightened, civilised and learned. No wonder the such countries are rife with the kind of world-bank or citibank kind of riffraff ``consultants``

The day their faces, attire, and style start spelling : exploiters, salesmen, westernish, lowclass , pimps etc , and such kind are hounded out of the countries [ like Iranis did]
no self respect and dignity [with accompanying hardships and LESS G.N.P for ALL] can ever be restored.


2) The perception that someone with a beard , cursing in arabic, and an arab-lookalike is automatically a pious, clean and honest muslim.

The day when ALL muslims would be so profficient in arabic that their would be no NEED to be so overawed by those who are pretenders. The day when the President, Primeminister and anyone who commands respect because of CHARACTER and TRUSTWORTHINESS will be able to lead the Jummaa or Eid prayers. In fact the Imam for the Eidgah at Islamabaad MUST be the Sadr. No wonder illiterates ( armywallahs & english-mediums are the numero-uno illiterates in Pakistan) like Musharraf shit in their pants when confronted by Imams and maulanas of every stripe. The guy just is not learned enough to discuss and debate without invoking the name of the Imperialist thugs from overseas and expressing the need to get colonised to crush the bogeyman called mullah.

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A Non-Muslim in Najaf: Absorbing the Scene

By Felicity Arbuthnot


26/05/2004

Imam Ali Mosque and possibly the world’s largest—and for many Shiites most sacred—cemetery in Najaf

A further attack on the Imam Ali Mosque and possibly the world’s largest—and for many Shiites most sacred—cemetery in Najaf, may well mark the beginning of the end for Britain and America’s ill-conceived rampage in Iraq. George W. Bush announced he was going on a Crusade, and indeed the attacks are seen by Muslims worldwide as just that, an attack on Islam itself.

America and Israel are, for many, firmly entrenched in the frame. Britain, by acceding to the US request to move troops north to Najaf from Basra, will further fuel another explosive situation. It was not lost on Iraqis that the British entered the south with many vehicles flying, not the usual British flag, but St George’s flag—the flag of the Crusaders.

In a rare example of something resembling insight, prime minister Blair’s government are said to be extremely concerned regarding implications of deploying troops to Najaf. However, supine to the last, they are more concerned, it would seem, about displeasing President Bush.

It is seldom that one is literally struck dumb, almost unable to absorb a place, a scene. Karen Dabrowska (Iraq, Bradt Travel Guides 2002) quotes Gavin Young’s description: “gold tiles, darkened handsomely with age…pink, blue and yellow patterns of birds and flowers bedeck the archways…potentates, sultans, through time, have brought gifts of gold, jewelry, priceless objects, all donated in reverence.” Reverence is the key word and it was overwhelming, humbling, and chilling. I realized in an instant that if I was rumbled I really might not get out.

Women and men worship separately and I was surrounded—or should I say engulfed—by hundreds of black-clad, swaying worshipers pushing forward in a gentle, purposeful wave to touch the great gold and black tomb of Imam Ali, or even to stretch the tip of one finger, or place their forehead against it. Reverence, passion, piety, humility, and complete, unquestioning belief. My fear was joined by deep shame at my intrusion into a situation I had simply failed to comprehend—a trust in the prophets, the afterlife—all beyond a stupid Western head. Yet to witness such faith was unique, utterly humbling, and unforgettable. Most people, at some time, ponder on what in their life they will remember as supremely significant on their death bed. For me, a dominant memory has to be the beauty, the passion, and the sanctity of the Imam Ali Mosque.

#11 by wajahat
//If the palestinians had practical solutions, access to implementing practical solutions, //

Palis did have a very practical solution, at camp david, as part of the Oslo accord. But that joker Arafat didn`t take it. If he had been practical - then he Palis would have a state now.

Palis are not practical - they want it all or nothing. That`s not going to work.

#16 by Urstruly
//...or worst an Indian underdog...//

You pakis have no choice really. If you don`t want to be Indian underdog than you have to become an american/chinese client state. You have to sukk up to some sugar-daddy. That`s your destiny.

Come to think of it - being an american client state was good for you guys, while it lasted. That gave you some good cash .... some national pretentions ... best of all, it gave you courage to stand up to the hated hinoods next door. Nothing can beat that :)

MOHAR 11

Is an example of what watching too much CNN/FOX can do to you. This BullShiit fed through the Zionist media about Arafat destroying OSLO is a Myth and a propoganda item. The Terms of OSLO were prejudiced and one sided and am Feckin ready to have an argument with any you imbibers of Right Wing Journalistic Bullshiit about OSLO being Detroyed by Arafat. It was a NonPlan to start off with.

And Mohar I am ready for an argument, now.

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mohar 11# 19

Of course Pakistanis have a choice to become proud and free; those despots and puppets who have no roots in their own people don`t. We, the Pakistanis have come to that juncture of history where we have to make a choice whether we will keep on footing the bill for someone else`s choice or become the masters of our own destiny. No one in pakistan wants to admit it yet but the fact on the ground is that a civil war of liberation has already started.

Wajahat

Lets not forget that neither Israelis nor Palestinians but it is US itself who have torpedoed their own peace plans each and everytime. Israelis know very well what Americans will do to their own plans and hence use this time to strengthen the occupation and barricade themselves further whereas Palestinians have only now wisened up when they treated the so called Road Map the way it was worth.

mohar11

by the way when soviets invaded Afghanistan, India also emassed its forces on Pakistani borders for over 4 years that time just like they did two years ago - partly to support their soviet allies and partly to control sikh insurgency. But since media was not as free as it is today people do not appreciate the significance of it. In the year before Indira was assassinated, India was on the verge of attacking Pakistan when zia went to delhi to see the cricket match - the move is popularly known as cricket diplomacy. During that time, zia is said to have told Indira for the first time that if India choses to enter Pakistani territory then it would be the end of Hindu race from this planet, while Muslims may be annihilated in one country, Pakistan, but will still exist in 59 others - referring to a nuclear showdown. That crow was way more shrewed than this joker - Musharaf.

Urstruly:

``a Soviet Sattelite, or worse an Indian underdog``

That says it all about you and radical Muslims. You deserve all you are getting. Good Luck.

By the way, you seem to be wrong on facts as usual. Zia came to Agra to watch the crciket match in 1987, when Rajiv Gandhi was PM. This was during operation Brass Tacks and Rajiv Gandhi was PM.

Also, you can use all the nukes you have and yet you cannot destroy all of India. But we can wipe out Islam from South Asia. We never did mind the Arabs being Muslims. Ttheir religion, they are welcome to it.

Urstruly:

Here`s some info on Op Brasstacks. I agree that the cowardly Indian government has backed down in the face of nuke threats from Pakistan. Personally, I think they should have taken Pakistan up on its offer. Unfortunately Pakistan does not have a monopoly on cowardly governments.

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Exercise Brasstacks

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In 1986-87, the Indian military conducted ``Exercise Brasstacks`` in the Rajasthan desert near the Pakistani border. Because of the unprecedented size of the exercises, their close proximity to the Pakistani border, and the underlying tensions in Indo-Pakistani relations, Brasstacks represented a substantial provocation to the Pakistanis. It almost brought the subcontinent to the brink of a nuclear war.

There were some significant ups and downs in the Indo-Pakistani relationship leading up to the crisis. In December 1985, Pakistani President Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq and Indian Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi met in New Delhi and agreed to a pact not to engage in attacks on each others nuclear facilities - a situation that would have left India rather the worse off due to the proximity of its production reactors to urbanized areas.



Indian P.M. Rajiv Gandhi(left) and with Zia(right).
In 1986, relations started deteriorating. Pakistan started accusing India of stirring up ethnic violence in its Sindh province, while India accused Pakistan of providing support for a Sikh uprising in the Indian state of Punjab.



Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi meeting the three service chiefs
Early 1986, Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi and the new Army Chief General K. Sundarji agreed to stage Exercise Brasstacks, the largest military exercise in modern Indian history. The exercise was meant to test the armed forces preparedness for a war with Pakistan. Brasstacks consisted of 4 parts.

Brasstack 1 : was an exercise on the map, held in Delhi which Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi attended.

Brasstack 2 : was for the military commanders in Chandigarh. This was on a sand model.

Brasstack 3 : the nitty gritty of the exercises were put into writing.

Brasstack 4 : was actually with troops in the desert.

Beginning in July 1986, Exercise Brasstacks reached its crisis stage in December when India had a total of nine divisions and more than a thousand armored vehicles deployed in Rajasthan, adjacent to the Pakistani province of Sindh. The exercises were as large as some carried out by NATO in Europe.

Pakistani President Zia-ul-Haq, who was also the army chief of staff, viewed the Indian manoeuvres as a direct threat aimed at cutting Pakistan in half. He ordered Army Reserve North and Army Reserve South to locations close to India`s border where they could strike at Punjab or Kashmir.

Critics of Brasstacks said Pakistan`s concerns about having such a massive armed force so close to its border was not unwarranted, and India should have undertaken measures to alleviate their concerns by inviting observers, or sending advance notice of the manoeuvres. Military manoeuvres have been used to mask planned attacks before - notably Operation Badr, the stunningly successful Egyptian and Syrian surprise attack that opened the 1973 Yom Kippur War.

Poor intelligence and communications, and a disengaged and voltaile Rajiv Gandhi made a bad situation worse in January, leading to an atmosphere of real crisis on 18th January 1987. Both India and Pakistan placed their entire militaries on high alert and engaged in ominous manoeuvres on each side of the border. Gandhi`s decision to begin airlifting troops to Punjab on 20th January threatened to escalate the crisis out of control.

The Indian army leadership finally decided to provide full-scale briefings to the Indian media about the exercises in which General Sundarji declared that they were non-provacative. There had been no public discussion of the huge troop movements until then.

Both governments soon after tried to bring the situation under control. A hotline was activated between India and Pakistan on 23 January. A systematic plan for standing down was agreed to on 4 February, when diplomats from both sides met and agreed to demobilize their forces from the border areas. Under confidence building measures drawn up, India and Pakistan were required to inform each other of major exercises conducted in the vicinity of the International Border in the future.

On February 21, 1987, Pakistani President Zia-ul-Haq dashed across the border to the Sawai Man Singh Stadium in Jaipur to watch the Reliance World Cup cricket match between India and Pakistan along with Rajiv Gandhi. It was termed ``cricket diplomacy`` and ``cricket for peace``. It was mostly cricket with little or no diplomacy and no accords were signed. However it played its part in reducing tensions between the two countries.



Dr A.Q. Khan
A curious footnote to the exercises were threatening remarks made by Dr A.Q. Khan(the father of the Pakistani nuclear program) to Indian journalist Kuldip Nayar at the height of the crisis. Khan openly declared that Pakistant had nuclear weapons in its possession. Nayar however shopped the story around for a few weeks, and it was not published until 1 March, after the matter had been resolved. Nonetheless it left a lingering sense of nuclear threat associated with the Brasstacks affair.

However, according to former Foreign Secretary Abdul Sattar, Pakistan`s nuclear capabilities had not yet ``flowered`` by the time of Brasstacks. They were, he said, ``nascent,`` but ``not yet actual.`` In the wake of Brasstacks, Pakistan raised its nuclear profile. In March 1987, President Zia-Ul-Haq admitted that Pakistan could build a nuclear bomb whenever it wished. ``Once you have acquired the technology, which Pakistan has, you can do whatever you like,`` he said. Soon thereafter, senior Pakistani leaders began openly discussing the role of nuclear deterrence in preventing war on the subcontinent.

In 1989, during a summit in Islamabad, newly elected Pakistani Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto and Rajiv Gandhi agreed not only to demilitarise Siachen, but also to sign significant cultural and political protocols. Within a few months however, a near hysterical Benazir was screaming abuses against India as the Pakistan-supported insurgency in Jammu & Kashmir picked up momentum.

#24 by Urstruly

I thought Zia met Rajiv Gandhi in 1987 ( Indira was dead by then).

Anyway - I agree, Zia was a smart guy ... his bluff really saved paki a$$ at that time. Otherwise, I am sure Indian Army would have had another go over your sorry a$$es, a la 1971.

It also opened the eyes of the navel-gazing buffoons that make up indian establishment ... they were sitting on their hunches like fools. They thought after `71 thrashing, pakis will never ever dare to bother India again. But they were wrong - paki army is like a snake - you either kill it or you defang it and put it in a box ... you just don`t thrash it and let it go. It will always come back to bother you.

That`s exactly what happened. But then it was late.

So the buffoons finally did what they should have done 20 years ago. Nukes were built ... the rest is history. We thank Zia for that.

But as far as ``wiping out hindu race`` is concerned - well, don`t even dream about it. You will be gone, before you can say ``bismillah``.

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#22 by Urstruly

Well - good luck for the liberation. We hinuds will really like to see you pakis proud and free ... free from outdated ideologies and choke-hold of the criminal enterprise(paki army) that has ruled you guys for 57 years. Free and proud pakis would be a people in their own rights ... a people of positive nationalism, constructive ideas, a distinct positive culture.

Then pakis wouldn`t have to resort to anti-indianism to build up their confidence. They will be truly free to seek their own destiny.

That`s when true peace will prevail.

#20 by wajahat

I am sure this issue has been hashed/rehashed a million times:) But hey - doesn`t hurt to have another round.

I am not really CNN/FOX type guy. I read various other sources and have had discussions and exposure to counter-points. But I always came back with a conviction that Arafat should have taken that deal. That was not giving him everything of course - but it was a good start. At the least - it would made lives of average palis livable.

So what`s your argument?

comments on the israel / Palestinian issue

from Gibran Bham
My friends, I can see that the Palestine issue has brought out the most comments, most of them very critical of my analysis of the solution.
Believe me, I can write 100 pages (as many Muslims can) - on the injustices done to Palestinians. I am personally sick of repeated heart brakes on the breakdown of peace, which many a time happens because of Isaeli instigations. I can only try to understand the plight of the people.
However, those whoe feel strongly about it - I ask you now, what solutions you are proposing to solving the issue for those people out there who you cry, shout and get angry for - your brothers as you like to say? Dont waste all our time by just criticizing something to try to impress on the `audience` as such, yes...for those of you out there in doubt, be sure that there are those who like too talk much, too impress the world. YEAH LOOK AT ME, I KNOW STUFF!!
knowing stuff aint jack...if you know what i mean. knowing something and using it is what counts. so get off the talking, and get down to the thinking. then hit me back - and i am not being sarcastic when i say, i hope i learn something from you guys.

comments on the israel / Palestinian issue

My friends, I can see that the Palestine issue has brought out the most comments, most of them very critical of my analysis of the solution.
Believe me, I can write 100 pages (as many Muslims can) - on the injustices done to Palestinians. I am personally sick of repeated heart brakes on the breakdown of peace, which many a time happens because of Isaeli instigations. I can only try to understand the plight of the people.
However, those whoe feel strongly about it - I ask you now, what solutions you are proposing to solving the issue for those people out there who you cry, shout and get angry for - your brothers as you like to say? Dont waste all our time by just criticizing something to try to impress on the `audience` as such, yes...for those of you out there in doubt, be sure that there are those who like too talk much, too impress the world. YEAH LOOK AT ME, I KNOW STUFF!!
knowing stuff aint jack...if you know what i mean. knowing something and using it is what counts. so get off the talking, and get down to the thinking. then hit me back - and i am not being sarcastic when i say, i hope i learn something from you guys.