A Case for Moderation

Urstuly

You are absolutely right, the Americans and their bed fellow, in a sodomistic sense, the Israelis, have always secretly defined the deathtraps before these ever sprouting peace plan. One of the preconditions of any peace plans is the stopping of the creation of settlements. Reports released this morning reenforced American Complicity and hipocracy where by BUSH is green lighting new settlement drives in the Palestinian area. And oh lest we forget that incredible Wall they are drving through the palestinian land which is creating havoc for millions of Palestinians to secure a few hundred israelis. I mean people like mohar and these Right wing CNN lovers dont know shiit but they somehow consider themselves political sages after one evening with Bill O Reilly.

To echoboom,

from GIBRAN BHAM

this man calls me an illiterate, im actually pleased, its good to get some strong reactions. Unfortunately, this genious feels it necessary to send his curses and compare me to Mr. Tariq Ali, for reasons Im not quite sure off. Typical isnt it? Theres always a few, they dont like what you say, so they attack your character like cowards. If you`ve got a point, raise the issues in the article.
I read your comment three times, Im still not sure what youre trying to say. Can anyone help this genius out? Hit me back with something good next time boom-boom.

stuka

you are over-reacting. I do not consider India to be a military threat to pakistan. What india could not do with 1 million army will sure not be able to do with 2 million army now. Kargil was the last ditch effort to resolve the kashmir issue through regular army thus opening the doors for militancy further ajar. After kargil a nuclear detente has been established and it has been proven to be effective post 9/11. Thus a common sense policy for Pakistan would be to reduce its military strength from half a mil to just hundered thousand. We should model our army on the design of Israeli army which works under nuclear umbrella in a sea of hostile nations. If India wants to build its armies to fight its future wars with China or dominate southern hemisphere then so be it. Instead of numbers Pakistan should invest on military technology and this cannot be done until these jokers of generals are ruling Paksitan. Like Zia they should have gone for F-16s, stealth technology and missile technology when Us needs us but instead they are buying useless military equipment from america like condemned friggates and cannons that have proven in-effective both in Afghanistan and Iraq, what will we do with the gunship helicopters that can be brought down by mere Klashnikovs; what good are bradleys and humvies which have proven in-effective and death traps in Iraq. American tanks have also proven useless. But it doesn`t bother these jokers because they get their kickbacks either way. I know in the end these clowns will come begging to people like Dr. Qadeer whom they have insulted in such an outrageous manner to please their masters. But whether we get this stuff from americans or not, Indian threat has been neutralized.

33
//...what solutions you are proposing to solving the issue for those people out ...//

Let me venture into the treacherous area of finding a ``solution`` for palis:

First, stop fooling around with intefada/holy war and what have you. Violence against much larger force will get you nothing - so scale it down. Try to gain some moral high ground - do some non-violent stuff that Gandhi did. Then and only then you can play the american media game and build a constituency there among mainstream americans and politicians. It will work - a favorable american public opinion is the only hope for palis.

Don`t wabble in jewish-dominated media conspiracy theory - there are also many liberal jews who would like to give you fair deal. But unless you stop the intefada BS, they can`t help you.

Anycase - after 9/11, all your suicide-stunts would just back-fire, but if you go the non-violent way, that will have a double impact - it would also improve muslim image. I am not saying this would be easy - but I think post-911, that`s the only way.

And then keep all your demands on table but be prepared to settle for less. Get back to camp david - first build a state, have a govt`, an army, police, economy, investment, education - get some sanity back into your lives. Rest can wait. Decades of violence has given you nothing, only driven you nuts. You can continue like this forever - yet the enemy will never be softened. Only it will drive the entire population beyond salvage.

Time to think out of the box. For the sake of future generation. The onus is on the palis. The israelis are strong and will remain so for forseeable future.

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stuka,

[Also, you can use all the nukes you have and yet you cannot destroy all of India. But we can wipe out Islam from South Asia. We never did mind the Arabs being Muslims. Ttheir religion, they are welcome to it.]

A paki gets on your neves, yet you take solice in the idea that you may perchance be able to ``wipe out`` Islam from South Asia?!

Geez, Jinnah wasn`t such an idiot after all....we Indian Muslims thank you for your support...
good luck in planning our genocide.

Gibran,
I must congratulate you on a very well thought and well articulated articles. Im impressed by your way of thinking and remain hopeful that there are more muslims with the open minds. May god help us in getting out of these degenerate mindsets. god bless you and keep up the good work.

sajjad

A goragoochaater just cannot read this, but doesn`t feel any embarrasment in discussing the subjects he learnt in the totaa-mainaa producing schools..the english-medium type, the bible-flag mafia-missionary schools.

Please read and propagate this:

Those who are at the top: are the Top terrorists--the moderates

If you are from a rishvatkhore household or the type who fattens himself/herself on taxpayers money, the one who prides on alien accents , then you can never ever understand such issues.

Because:You and your kind ARE the problem.Pakistanis are busy acquiring knowledge from the right source to eliminate such problems.

P.S:-Please always use and overuse the word `` moderate`` as a gaali, with a sneer and hint of derision. Soon its true meanings will emerge.

vertex-when you do recognize that stuka was miffed and he overreacted-dont you think you are overreacting too? urstruly thinks that India is a Hindu country(which it is not) so if stuka thought that Pakistan is a Muslim country and thereby said wht he said,do you really think he was speaking against Indian muslims?Anyway,why do you think you need reassurance from stuka to believe that India is your country?

urstruly,wajahat- This guy is right on at least one count.Lets stick to Pakistan.
Gibran-You commented on echoboom because he attacked you personally,but why did you refrain from commenting on opressed,who made a very good point? In your own personal opinion he may be a visionary,but what personal vision is Musharraf personally showing by allowing these human rights violations?
http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00003928&channel=civic%20center
I dont know what your logic is that if someone shows dissent,without thinking of a solution,that is a weakness in character.Solutions dont come from the mind of one person.How about this for a solution-democracy? Let the person who runs the country not think too hard for a solution to impress you with strengh in character. Let all the people have some say in how to run the country.
ALthough you do make quite a few good points,but their importance is lost when you think that supporting Musharraf is supporting Pakistan.It is not.

Continued:42
This link is clearer:
Those who are at the top: are the Top terrorists--the moderates

Rahul: fair enough - things arent perfect. but i think the general consencus is that things arent PERFECT but they are GETTING BETTER. im not saying that lets all kiss Musharafs ass - but Im arguing against people who are anti - government because they are anti -american. its very easy to overlook the goods and focus on the bads, and that is what we as a society tend to do. most conversations end up (even in chowk) - as a discussion on the evils of American foreign policy. I think that if you look back in history - i have taken a few cases in the essay - that Muslims are partly too blame for a lot that has overcome them. its only by being open and honest and having a rational debate can one get anywhere - that is why i argue against people who just yap (like echoboom).

Why do we all seem to forget the moral arguments ie Do the right thing, do not lie, keep your promises, help the down trodden, if not in kind atleast with words. The many turns and shifts in the name of pragmatism[moderation] are nothing more than attempts at perpetuation of Musharrafs unconstitutional and despotic rule. What is sadly happening in Pakistan is that we have lost the moral ground. This moral ground is not tied to or the ijaradari any particular religion.
I am not a supporter of Jehad or any form of violence but I would like to ask but one question.? How do we rid ourselves of Musharraf who by now it is clear is not going to let go of the army or the Chief Executive [usurpers] position, call it what name you will. His isolation amongst a group of sycophants is now complete with SA becoming PM. What a sad commentary on the integrity and capability of 140 million people that not one among them was considered fit [by Musharraf ofcourse] that he had to install his imported stooge. The biggest qualification the man has for the job are that he has handled illgotten wealth discreetly and made even more money for his corrupt clients. He also has shown exceptional adeptness at manipulating figures by changing the basis for calcs on growth rates, reserves, definition of poor etc. Who cares a shit about the poor,where they will sleep or eat, or the future of this poor country. According to Mr Aziz we are now a MIddle Income country. You have to go to interior of Sindh or Balochistan to understand what desperation and poverty are all about. What a cruel joke...

Gibran,

How are you i just read your article it was excellent!!! I`m proud of you take care

Sadia
(stratford!!)

Gibran,

How are you i just read your article it was excellent!!! I`m proud of you take care

Sadia
(stratford!!)

Oppressed

Right on the money once again. As pathetic as Musharaf`s performance as a civilian ruler is, his military credentials are exceptionally dubios as well. His military perfomance speaks of gross incompetence. His military credentials as Chief were put to test in Kargil affair. As brilliant a plan of Kargil invasion was i.e. to occupy Kargil to cut off supply lines to Siachin, Mushraf was not the creator of this plan. The plan existed since 80`s and military sought approval from several governments since then. Mushraf as a commander in chief failed to correctly plan not only the operational details but also the stratgic planning as well. At operational level, he failed to plan a containment plan in case enemy discovered the movement of Pakistan army pre-maturely. And that is what exactly happened when some sheppards grazing their sheep in the area reported the movement of Pak army to Indians down at the base camp. Strategically he grossly underestimated the Indian response whether they discovered losing Kargil heights prematurely or not. Anyone with a half a brain could have known that India would fight tooth to nail in three months time slot to save its soldiers at Siachin. The operation on Pak side was so ill planned that in the final days of war Pakistani soldiers survived by eating grass. This is gross incompetence that resulted in the loss of thousands of Pakistani soldiers. As in the wars of 65 and 71, Pakistani army i.e. General Mushraf failed to plan on civil defence of cities incase India decided to embark on a full scale invasion. On the other hand civilian leadership and civil defence were caught as dumbfounded as deer caugt in head lights. This failure of military leadreship for cmplete lack of respect for the lives of their own civilian population is unforgivable.

Strategically, Mushraf as a military Chief also failed when he over-estimated the American threat. As it is clear from the mamoirs of Richard Clark and Tommy Frank Pakistan`s position was not as compromising as this despot led us to beleive - and this when we had a nuclear capability to fight back. It is true that every body gets wise after the fact, but as a military chief it was his job to evluate the threat and prepare a response that reflected the will of the people but instead he went crawling down to American demands. The performance of American army aka broiler chickens is evident during the first week of Iraqi invasion when it took them week to enter into just Basra. Now keep in ,mind that the weekest and most disorganized army in the world was that of Iraq which under ten years of sanctions and with periodic inspections was merely reduced to a police force. Even people like Muqtada Sadr with his fighters in bathroom slippers, and merely having assault rifles have taught such a lesson to Americans that they will be teaching in their military schools for next century. Mushraf has sold us cheap and his actions are tentamount to incompetence and treason. Not to mention that violating constitution is also treason. Those who support this despot in any shape of form are as treasonous snakes as he is. Those who write articles to justify his rule are also treasonous snakes. Those who support any stooges installed by him are also trasonous snakes. It is a patriotic and religious duty of every sane Pakistani citizen to dissociate himself from this treasonous snake.