A Case for Moderation

Will the acceptance of a rule by a despotic dictator who came in power by overthrowing a democratically elected leader, by violating the constitution at gun point be considered ``moderation`` or is it ``enlightenment``? or Is it ``moderate enlightenment``? What has become of this world when even the countries like Samoa, Tuvalu and Vanuatu are rejecting this enlightenment and opting to plunge into the deep abyss of ignorance and democracy.

The best article I have read on Chowk. I feel very optimistic that there are people in Muslim world who can really ``reason`` things in the world. Can`t wait to see all the routine crap that will be thrown at this article too as usual.....
I must mention that the only other thing enjoyable on the chowk is Hamidm`s interactions. I hope he interacts more often...

This article is another example of trap-in-the-box Muslims. No matter what the problem, they think collectively as Muslims first and then deciding the seldom-right-often-wrong step to take. Here author is suggesting a right step to not hate US because it is not good for them and it is also irrational. The message should have been just the opposite. Dislike, disagree and criticize US government on rational basis, if necessary, as many people around the world do, but keep the religion out of it. Religion is a personal matter; it should not influence in societal, communal, provincial, national, political, economical, cultural, traditional etc etc matters.

However, author does not hide his attachment to religion which is influencing his mindset on matters beyond the territory of religion. He is not leaving his religion at home when stepping out the door.

He also loses a significant number of readers in the introduction (which should be very carefully crafted to keep the interest of the readres by almost treating readers as customers) by clearly alligning with Musharraf and totally ignoring all the wrongs he has done. Author probably did not visit Pakistan before 9/11/ 2001 when Pakistan was in worst shape in every way than before Musharraf overthrew civilian government. Musharraf is no way the savior of anything in Pakistan. The money pouring in from USA during Zia rule had similar effects for few years but we know now that he left behind a mess. Same is true of Msuharraf. Once, the artificial and temporary financial stability resulting from kindness of USA disappears, so will upward blip. There is nothing more to Musharraf than US help improving the financial balance sheet. Both NS and BB would have supported USA on war on terror too, if you know the transcripts of Colin Powell phone call to Musharraf and president Bush stating, ``either you are with us or with them``.

Let`s try to keep seperate things sepearte.

- Musharraf`s act of seizing power
- Good or bad points of his governance
- Ligitimacy of his rule over the time
- Evolution he is bringing about with `democracy`.

While much is said about all these things everywhere, our people usually fail to keep them seperate. As a matter of fact, these things are seperage from a standpoint of national interests. One may be wrong but at the same time the other may be useful. Makes sense?

While most of the things go against his case, I believe one of the components of his rule is in a positive direction and that is the moderation part. But this also is a very tricky thing, trying to row upstream and risking a backlash.

The article is distinguished in it`s purpose, i.e. to give rise to a productive stlye of thinking and getting rid of the attitude of complains and conspiracy identification as a national hobby.

I think the root causes of problems mentioned here are mostly education and a devotion to religion which is essentially blind. Interestingly, these problems reinforce each other.

Startled UK Marines Hassled By Gay Afghans

By Chris Stephen In Bagram

TheScotsman.net (5-24-02) 6-4-2

British marines returning from an operation deep in the Afghan mountains spoke last night of an alarming new threat - being propositioned by swarms of gay local farmers.

An Arbroath marine, James Fletcher, said: ``They were more terrifying than the al-Qaeda. One bloke who had painted toenails was offering to paint ours. They go about hand in hand, mincing around the village.``

While the marines failed to find any al-Qaeda during the seven-day Operation Condor, they were propositioned by dozens of men in villages the troops were ordered to search.

``We were pretty shocked,`` Marine Fletcher said. ``We discovered from the Afghan soldiers we had with us that a lot of men in this country have the same philosophy as ancient Greeks: a woman for babies, a man for pleasure,.``

Originally, the marines had sent patrols into several villages in the mountains near the town of Khost, hoping to catch up with al-Qaeda suspects who last week fought a four-hour gun battle with soldiers of the Australian SAS. The hardened troops, their faces covered in camouflage cream and weight down with weapons, radios and ammunition, were confronted with Afghans wanting to stroke their hair.

``It was hell,`` said Corporal Paul Richard, 20. ``Every village we went into we got a group of men wearing make-up coming up, stroking our hair and cheeks and making kissing noises.``

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SODOMY RETURNS TO AFGHANISTAN

The Taleban gone, the tradition of sodomy returns to Kandahar. Bearded men, accompanied by their “ashna” (beloved boys) are again openly visible on the streets.

The Taleban had forbidden the Pashtun tradition of “ashna”, the grooming of favourite boys for sexual pleasure. In one of his first acts in 1994, Mullah Omar freed a boy who was being fought over by two Mujaheddin warlords in Kandahar, who had started firing artillery rounds at each other’s positions, destroying part of the city. Called to mediate in other such affairs, the Taleban movement quickly implanted itself in Kandahari society.

The Taleban quickly applied their medieval rules to those caught practising sodomy: they were forced to stand under a stone wall, which was felled on top of them. Eye witnesses in Kandahar speak of the change under the Taleban, and the subsequent return of the ashna.

There is a local saying that birds fly over Kandahar using only one wing, the other covering their posterior*. Now the population claims “Birds flew with both wings under the Taleban…but not any more”.

Timothy BANCROFT-HINCHEY
PRAVDA.Ru

* Even birds protecting their arses under U.S occupation. And here in Pakistan the ungratefull Faiz was complaining about `` jism O jaaN bachaa kay chalay``.

Gibran

Agree with SameerJB # 3.

Leave the faith out. There are universally accepted norms of good and bad which are sufficient to get along. It is better to keep the faith within oneself and not open this pandora`s box.

NHK

I just skimmed through the painfully long but well articulated essay on Moderation. If you have to jot down that many words to address the simple concept of moderation then it must be a real cumbersome task to undertake.

Good Luck!

sameer,

It must pain you that the people you would have us ape consider us ``Muslim first``. It is only pratical and rational that we think along these lines now. Like it or not, the ``Ummah`` is being defined for us by the outside...how ironic. Don`t take my word for it, just look at CENTCOM`s region of interest....

``Religion is a personal matter; it should not influence in societal, communal, provincial, national, political, economical, cultural, traditional etc etc matters.``

LOL, this is not a statement of fact, but a statement of belief. Religion does in fact influence the public spheres in the absence of supression and indoctrination to the contrary. A compromise then...leave your radical agnosticism/atheism at the door in Muslim lands and let Muslims recipocate in good-faith elsewhere. :-)

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Needless to say, the subject matter deals with very ``Muslim`` problems and dissociating ourselves from the very identity that makes us ``problematic`` for some is not the proper way of fixing OUR problems, despite the fantasies and ill-wishing of others.

With the Kurds in the past, and the people of Darfur now (convieniently being used as an anti-Arab crutch by some American commentators) tell us that we are ignorant of our own world, and our self-preception is through other people`s eyes.

We have no idea what is going on in our backyard, but when something is going on elsewhere, we are all too keen to point it out. We`re all to eager to forgive those who we ``like`` (Pakistan forgives China, Iran forgives Russia, Indian Muslims forgive their own government, Pakistanis too...`course no one forgives Israel and USA...well, except the uncle tom`s among us...). If we really want to make a principled stand, we have to start in our own backyard...and guess what my fellow Ummites...Dafur is currently the #1 catastrophe in our neck of the woods....

Okay, the consequences of darfur doesn`t threaten the geopolitical order of our world, nor does it threaten to spill into our streets, so the immediate sense of danger is not there...but come`on...million people displaced? Not even a peep....jeebus, why do so many people ``like`` sudan?

Just wanted to drop a quick line to thank everyone who read the article. Yes it is a little long, but I wanted to touch on a variety of issues which I feel to be revelant to the larger picture.

Just wanted to raise a couple of points:
1. No matter how hard we try, religion will play a huge role in Pakistan and in the Muslim world, to break away from this character will take many many years. For those who argue for complete secularism - do note that change takes time, and by arguing for another extreme in our societies will only create a backlash. Therefore it has to be a gradual process coming from within our country through educated means.

2. Some have mentioned that I am against criticizing the U.S. That is completely incorrect because I have dedicated a whole section titled The United States of Self Intrest, to the article. I am of the opinion that we cannot change the U.S., we are not citizens of that country, a lot of us dont even live there. Therefore, we have to focus on OURSELVES and breakaway from pessimistic, negative and extremist attitudes, because they accomplish so very little!!

3. The government of Pakistan is not perfect, but I am not going to be one of those who talks much, if there are any out there who have an opinion - then also have a solution. That is the sign of true character.

Cheers.

Another dark day in history of Pakistan. An on duty book keeper from city bank has been appointed Prime Minister of Pakistan. My condolences to all fellow Pakistanis.

A Question for all the Liberal Fence Sitting Preachers!!!!!!

``What is the difference between an American pilot who drops a bomb on a Baghdad market and the Iraqi terrorist, who lays a bomb in the same market? The fact that the pilot has a uniform? Or that he drops his bomb from a distance and does not see the children he is killing?``

Uri Avnery (Israel`s Leading Journalist and Activist)

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Hang On!

You talk about Practical Solutions as opposed to Suicide Bombings, I am considerate of the sentiment however also disturbed by the rhetorical nature of this detailed, at places almost self obsessed diatribe.

If the palestinians had practical solutions, access to implementing practical solutions, why the Feck will those demented people kill themselves. Israel`s serial incursions into Palestinian areas and systematic destruction of Institutions, Equipment and systems, diallows any PRACTICAL SOLUTIONS to become a resounding fact. The West whilst crying the Tear of Democracy, supports and upheld all the dictators all over the world and its repressive measures to counter true democratic regimes is a proof of its hipocracy.

Venenzuela and Hugo Chaves has a lot of PRACTICAL SOLUTIONS, yet in the last 6 years the guy has been deposed several times because of his policy of empowering the masses and the downsizing the elites, who are America`s natural partners in the area.

Look we appreciate your effort here, but this nothing more than Boeugeosie Banter, the I am superior by my western upbrining syndrome at its best. Moderation only works if both sides work towards it. You cant rape , kill and maim Palestinians and expect the palestinians to meet at a convention and preach moderation, this is utter nonsense and it applies everywhere....

Do the ends justify the means?? I fully support and endorse the comments of urstruly at 1.
A despotic ruler will at times also sometimes maybe do the right thing. Consistency and accountability can only be ensured through a systematic political process and not through the passing phases of the sweet will of one individual.

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Oppressed

You are right. General Pinochet is also considered a economic messiah for Chile, but at what cost - thousand of Chileans murdered, tortured, incarcerated and lives destroyed. A wanted man in his own country and internationally was received with a heroes welcome yesterday by the military establishment of the country. Similarly, take Zia ul Haque, despite his actions that have torn the social fabric of our country and to this date after 15 years it ails us, but when he died, his funeral was attended by millions of people in recognition of his efforts to defeat a superpower and thus protecting the homeland from becoming another Soviet satellite or worst an Indian underdog. Such a funeral is unseen in Pakistan since the death of Quaid-e-Azam. People did not forget his efforts but also admit that inherently his rule was bad. Compare Zia to Yahya, who died under government protection whereas people set his property on fire. Now we have another despot who has not defended this country at any front unlike Zia, has acted just like Yehya imposing Yehya like lecherous reforms which he calls moderation, killed Pakistanis, exiled and totally discredited political and religious leadreship through intimidation and coercion, looted public property, and has done irreparable damage to federation by inciting civil wars in two provinces. His minions and those who benefit from military rule portray him as financial messiah and Shaukat aziz as a financial wizard but those who understand know very well that the magic behind all this wizardry is because of becoming America`s client state and to do its dirty work for and to help it with its imperial agenda. In other words he has managed to feed Pakistanis the Rizq-e-Haram and blood money enmass. This has totally discredited Pakistan in the world community and especially in the Islamic world. One has to look at Michael Moores F-9/11 to see what Americans think of their ``allies`` in the so called war on terrorism. Today we are a pariah nation just as Egypt or Jordan in Muslim world. While countrys like Malysia and not Pakistan are being viewed as the most enlightend and modern yet proud and free in Muslim world today while they told Americans bluntly to get lost.

Jibbe:
Laa`nat on you if you admire Tariq Ali--[the fifth columnist commie among muslims]

Your westernisation has done you in Gibran. It is hard for you to accept that you are an illiterate. Knowing and acting englishy is no longer a sign of being ``modern``. Gone are the days when your tattered and louse infested jeans were a sign of having been emancipated
and the duck-ass waddling an indication of ``everything goes``. Just ask that wretched terrorist-of-the-times Tariq Ali..the commie-kanjaRR, the atheist, the secularist.

You are one of the twin curses afflicting Pakistan & the colonised world:

1) The perception that an english-speaking person, especially if a goraa, is an enlightened, civilised and learned. No wonder the such countries are rife with the kind of world-bank or citibank kind of riffraff ``consultants``

The day their faces, attire, and style start spelling : exploiters, salesmen, westernish, lowclass , pimps etc , and such kind are hounded out of the countries [ like Iranis did]
no self respect and dignity [with accompanying hardships and LESS G.N.P for ALL] can ever be restored.


2) The perception that someone with a beard , cursing in arabic, and an arab-lookalike is automatically a pious, clean and honest muslim.

The day when ALL muslims would be so profficient in arabic that their would be no NEED to be so overawed by those who are pretenders. The day when the President, Primeminister and anyone who commands respect because of CHARACTER and TRUSTWORTHINESS will be able to lead the Jummaa or Eid prayers. In fact the Imam for the Eidgah at Islamabaad MUST be the Sadr. No wonder illiterates ( armywallahs & english-mediums are the numero-uno illiterates in Pakistan) like Musharraf shit in their pants when confronted by Imams and maulanas of every stripe. The guy just is not learned enough to discuss and debate without invoking the name of the Imperialist thugs from overseas and expressing the need to get colonised to crush the bogeyman called mullah.

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A Non-Muslim in Najaf: Absorbing the Scene

By Felicity Arbuthnot


26/05/2004

Imam Ali Mosque and possibly the world’s largest—and for many Shiites most sacred—cemetery in Najaf

A further attack on the Imam Ali Mosque and possibly the world’s largest—and for many Shiites most sacred—cemetery in Najaf, may well mark the beginning of the end for Britain and America’s ill-conceived rampage in Iraq. George W. Bush announced he was going on a Crusade, and indeed the attacks are seen by Muslims worldwide as just that, an attack on Islam itself.

America and Israel are, for many, firmly entrenched in the frame. Britain, by acceding to the US request to move troops north to Najaf from Basra, will further fuel another explosive situation. It was not lost on Iraqis that the British entered the south with many vehicles flying, not the usual British flag, but St George’s flag—the flag of the Crusaders.

In a rare example of something resembling insight, prime minister Blair’s government are said to be extremely concerned regarding implications of deploying troops to Najaf. However, supine to the last, they are more concerned, it would seem, about displeasing President Bush.

It is seldom that one is literally struck dumb, almost unable to absorb a place, a scene. Karen Dabrowska (Iraq, Bradt Travel Guides 2002) quotes Gavin Young’s description: “gold tiles, darkened handsomely with age…pink, blue and yellow patterns of birds and flowers bedeck the archways…potentates, sultans, through time, have brought gifts of gold, jewelry, priceless objects, all donated in reverence.” Reverence is the key word and it was overwhelming, humbling, and chilling. I realized in an instant that if I was rumbled I really might not get out.

Women and men worship separately and I was surrounded—or should I say engulfed—by hundreds of black-clad, swaying worshipers pushing forward in a gentle, purposeful wave to touch the great gold and black tomb of Imam Ali, or even to stretch the tip of one finger, or place their forehead against it. Reverence, passion, piety, humility, and complete, unquestioning belief. My fear was joined by deep shame at my intrusion into a situation I had simply failed to comprehend—a trust in the prophets, the afterlife—all beyond a stupid Western head. Yet to witness such faith was unique, utterly humbling, and unforgettable. Most people, at some time, ponder on what in their life they will remember as supremely significant on their death bed. For me, a dominant memory has to be the beauty, the passion, and the sanctity of the Imam Ali Mosque.

#11 by wajahat
//If the palestinians had practical solutions, access to implementing practical solutions, //

Palis did have a very practical solution, at camp david, as part of the Oslo accord. But that joker Arafat didn`t take it. If he had been practical - then he Palis would have a state now.

Palis are not practical - they want it all or nothing. That`s not going to work.

#16 by Urstruly
//...or worst an Indian underdog...//

You pakis have no choice really. If you don`t want to be Indian underdog than you have to become an american/chinese client state. You have to sukk up to some sugar-daddy. That`s your destiny.

Come to think of it - being an american client state was good for you guys, while it lasted. That gave you some good cash .... some national pretentions ... best of all, it gave you courage to stand up to the hated hinoods next door. Nothing can beat that :)

MOHAR 11

Is an example of what watching too much CNN/FOX can do to you. This BullShiit fed through the Zionist media about Arafat destroying OSLO is a Myth and a propoganda item. The Terms of OSLO were prejudiced and one sided and am Feckin ready to have an argument with any you imbibers of Right Wing Journalistic Bullshiit about OSLO being Detroyed by Arafat. It was a NonPlan to start off with.

And Mohar I am ready for an argument, now.

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mohar 11# 19

Of course Pakistanis have a choice to become proud and free; those despots and puppets who have no roots in their own people don`t. We, the Pakistanis have come to that juncture of history where we have to make a choice whether we will keep on footing the bill for someone else`s choice or become the masters of our own destiny. No one in pakistan wants to admit it yet but the fact on the ground is that a civil war of liberation has already started.

Wajahat

Lets not forget that neither Israelis nor Palestinians but it is US itself who have torpedoed their own peace plans each and everytime. Israelis know very well what Americans will do to their own plans and hence use this time to strengthen the occupation and barricade themselves further whereas Palestinians have only now wisened up when they treated the so called Road Map the way it was worth.

mohar11

by the way when soviets invaded Afghanistan, India also emassed its forces on Pakistani borders for over 4 years that time just like they did two years ago - partly to support their soviet allies and partly to control sikh insurgency. But since media was not as free as it is today people do not appreciate the significance of it. In the year before Indira was assassinated, India was on the verge of attacking Pakistan when zia went to delhi to see the cricket match - the move is popularly known as cricket diplomacy. During that time, zia is said to have told Indira for the first time that if India choses to enter Pakistani territory then it would be the end of Hindu race from this planet, while Muslims may be annihilated in one country, Pakistan, but will still exist in 59 others - referring to a nuclear showdown. That crow was way more shrewed than this joker - Musharaf.

Urstruly:

``a Soviet Sattelite, or worse an Indian underdog``

That says it all about you and radical Muslims. You deserve all you are getting. Good Luck.

By the way, you seem to be wrong on facts as usual. Zia came to Agra to watch the crciket match in 1987, when Rajiv Gandhi was PM. This was during operation Brass Tacks and Rajiv Gandhi was PM.

Also, you can use all the nukes you have and yet you cannot destroy all of India. But we can wipe out Islam from South Asia. We never did mind the Arabs being Muslims. Ttheir religion, they are welcome to it.

Urstruly:

Here`s some info on Op Brasstacks. I agree that the cowardly Indian government has backed down in the face of nuke threats from Pakistan. Personally, I think they should have taken Pakistan up on its offer. Unfortunately Pakistan does not have a monopoly on cowardly governments.

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Exercise Brasstacks

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In 1986-87, the Indian military conducted ``Exercise Brasstacks`` in the Rajasthan desert near the Pakistani border. Because of the unprecedented size of the exercises, their close proximity to the Pakistani border, and the underlying tensions in Indo-Pakistani relations, Brasstacks represented a substantial provocation to the Pakistanis. It almost brought the subcontinent to the brink of a nuclear war.

There were some significant ups and downs in the Indo-Pakistani relationship leading up to the crisis. In December 1985, Pakistani President Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq and Indian Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi met in New Delhi and agreed to a pact not to engage in attacks on each others nuclear facilities - a situation that would have left India rather the worse off due to the proximity of its production reactors to urbanized areas.



Indian P.M. Rajiv Gandhi(left) and with Zia(right).
In 1986, relations started deteriorating. Pakistan started accusing India of stirring up ethnic violence in its Sindh province, while India accused Pakistan of providing support for a Sikh uprising in the Indian state of Punjab.



Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi meeting the three service chiefs
Early 1986, Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi and the new Army Chief General K. Sundarji agreed to stage Exercise Brasstacks, the largest military exercise in modern Indian history. The exercise was meant to test the armed forces preparedness for a war with Pakistan. Brasstacks consisted of 4 parts.

Brasstack 1 : was an exercise on the map, held in Delhi which Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi attended.

Brasstack 2 : was for the military commanders in Chandigarh. This was on a sand model.

Brasstack 3 : the nitty gritty of the exercises were put into writing.

Brasstack 4 : was actually with troops in the desert.

Beginning in July 1986, Exercise Brasstacks reached its crisis stage in December when India had a total of nine divisions and more than a thousand armored vehicles deployed in Rajasthan, adjacent to the Pakistani province of Sindh. The exercises were as large as some carried out by NATO in Europe.

Pakistani President Zia-ul-Haq, who was also the army chief of staff, viewed the Indian manoeuvres as a direct threat aimed at cutting Pakistan in half. He ordered Army Reserve North and Army Reserve South to locations close to India`s border where they could strike at Punjab or Kashmir.

Critics of Brasstacks said Pakistan`s concerns about having such a massive armed force so close to its border was not unwarranted, and India should have undertaken measures to alleviate their concerns by inviting observers, or sending advance notice of the manoeuvres. Military manoeuvres have been used to mask planned attacks before - notably Operation Badr, the stunningly successful Egyptian and Syrian surprise attack that opened the 1973 Yom Kippur War.

Poor intelligence and communications, and a disengaged and voltaile Rajiv Gandhi made a bad situation worse in January, leading to an atmosphere of real crisis on 18th January 1987. Both India and Pakistan placed their entire militaries on high alert and engaged in ominous manoeuvres on each side of the border. Gandhi`s decision to begin airlifting troops to Punjab on 20th January threatened to escalate the crisis out of control.

The Indian army leadership finally decided to provide full-scale briefings to the Indian media about the exercises in which General Sundarji declared that they were non-provacative. There had been no public discussion of the huge troop movements until then.

Both governments soon after tried to bring the situation under control. A hotline was activated between India and Pakistan on 23 January. A systematic plan for standing down was agreed to on 4 February, when diplomats from both sides met and agreed to demobilize their forces from the border areas. Under confidence building measures drawn up, India and Pakistan were required to inform each other of major exercises conducted in the vicinity of the International Border in the future.

On February 21, 1987, Pakistani President Zia-ul-Haq dashed across the border to the Sawai Man Singh Stadium in Jaipur to watch the Reliance World Cup cricket match between India and Pakistan along with Rajiv Gandhi. It was termed ``cricket diplomacy`` and ``cricket for peace``. It was mostly cricket with little or no diplomacy and no accords were signed. However it played its part in reducing tensions between the two countries.



Dr A.Q. Khan
A curious footnote to the exercises were threatening remarks made by Dr A.Q. Khan(the father of the Pakistani nuclear program) to Indian journalist Kuldip Nayar at the height of the crisis. Khan openly declared that Pakistant had nuclear weapons in its possession. Nayar however shopped the story around for a few weeks, and it was not published until 1 March, after the matter had been resolved. Nonetheless it left a lingering sense of nuclear threat associated with the Brasstacks affair.

However, according to former Foreign Secretary Abdul Sattar, Pakistan`s nuclear capabilities had not yet ``flowered`` by the time of Brasstacks. They were, he said, ``nascent,`` but ``not yet actual.`` In the wake of Brasstacks, Pakistan raised its nuclear profile. In March 1987, President Zia-Ul-Haq admitted that Pakistan could build a nuclear bomb whenever it wished. ``Once you have acquired the technology, which Pakistan has, you can do whatever you like,`` he said. Soon thereafter, senior Pakistani leaders began openly discussing the role of nuclear deterrence in preventing war on the subcontinent.

In 1989, during a summit in Islamabad, newly elected Pakistani Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto and Rajiv Gandhi agreed not only to demilitarise Siachen, but also to sign significant cultural and political protocols. Within a few months however, a near hysterical Benazir was screaming abuses against India as the Pakistan-supported insurgency in Jammu & Kashmir picked up momentum.

#24 by Urstruly

I thought Zia met Rajiv Gandhi in 1987 ( Indira was dead by then).

Anyway - I agree, Zia was a smart guy ... his bluff really saved paki a$$ at that time. Otherwise, I am sure Indian Army would have had another go over your sorry a$$es, a la 1971.

It also opened the eyes of the navel-gazing buffoons that make up indian establishment ... they were sitting on their hunches like fools. They thought after `71 thrashing, pakis will never ever dare to bother India again. But they were wrong - paki army is like a snake - you either kill it or you defang it and put it in a box ... you just don`t thrash it and let it go. It will always come back to bother you.

That`s exactly what happened. But then it was late.

So the buffoons finally did what they should have done 20 years ago. Nukes were built ... the rest is history. We thank Zia for that.

But as far as ``wiping out hindu race`` is concerned - well, don`t even dream about it. You will be gone, before you can say ``bismillah``.

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#22 by Urstruly

Well - good luck for the liberation. We hinuds will really like to see you pakis proud and free ... free from outdated ideologies and choke-hold of the criminal enterprise(paki army) that has ruled you guys for 57 years. Free and proud pakis would be a people in their own rights ... a people of positive nationalism, constructive ideas, a distinct positive culture.

Then pakis wouldn`t have to resort to anti-indianism to build up their confidence. They will be truly free to seek their own destiny.

That`s when true peace will prevail.

#20 by wajahat

I am sure this issue has been hashed/rehashed a million times:) But hey - doesn`t hurt to have another round.

I am not really CNN/FOX type guy. I read various other sources and have had discussions and exposure to counter-points. But I always came back with a conviction that Arafat should have taken that deal. That was not giving him everything of course - but it was a good start. At the least - it would made lives of average palis livable.

So what`s your argument?

comments on the israel / Palestinian issue

from Gibran Bham
My friends, I can see that the Palestine issue has brought out the most comments, most of them very critical of my analysis of the solution.
Believe me, I can write 100 pages (as many Muslims can) - on the injustices done to Palestinians. I am personally sick of repeated heart brakes on the breakdown of peace, which many a time happens because of Isaeli instigations. I can only try to understand the plight of the people.
However, those whoe feel strongly about it - I ask you now, what solutions you are proposing to solving the issue for those people out there who you cry, shout and get angry for - your brothers as you like to say? Dont waste all our time by just criticizing something to try to impress on the `audience` as such, yes...for those of you out there in doubt, be sure that there are those who like too talk much, too impress the world. YEAH LOOK AT ME, I KNOW STUFF!!
knowing stuff aint jack...if you know what i mean. knowing something and using it is what counts. so get off the talking, and get down to the thinking. then hit me back - and i am not being sarcastic when i say, i hope i learn something from you guys.

comments on the israel / Palestinian issue

My friends, I can see that the Palestine issue has brought out the most comments, most of them very critical of my analysis of the solution.
Believe me, I can write 100 pages (as many Muslims can) - on the injustices done to Palestinians. I am personally sick of repeated heart brakes on the breakdown of peace, which many a time happens because of Isaeli instigations. I can only try to understand the plight of the people.
However, those whoe feel strongly about it - I ask you now, what solutions you are proposing to solving the issue for those people out there who you cry, shout and get angry for - your brothers as you like to say? Dont waste all our time by just criticizing something to try to impress on the `audience` as such, yes...for those of you out there in doubt, be sure that there are those who like too talk much, too impress the world. YEAH LOOK AT ME, I KNOW STUFF!!
knowing stuff aint jack...if you know what i mean. knowing something and using it is what counts. so get off the talking, and get down to the thinking. then hit me back - and i am not being sarcastic when i say, i hope i learn something from you guys.

Urstuly

You are absolutely right, the Americans and their bed fellow, in a sodomistic sense, the Israelis, have always secretly defined the deathtraps before these ever sprouting peace plan. One of the preconditions of any peace plans is the stopping of the creation of settlements. Reports released this morning reenforced American Complicity and hipocracy where by BUSH is green lighting new settlement drives in the Palestinian area. And oh lest we forget that incredible Wall they are drving through the palestinian land which is creating havoc for millions of Palestinians to secure a few hundred israelis. I mean people like mohar and these Right wing CNN lovers dont know shiit but they somehow consider themselves political sages after one evening with Bill O Reilly.

To echoboom,

from GIBRAN BHAM

this man calls me an illiterate, im actually pleased, its good to get some strong reactions. Unfortunately, this genious feels it necessary to send his curses and compare me to Mr. Tariq Ali, for reasons Im not quite sure off. Typical isnt it? Theres always a few, they dont like what you say, so they attack your character like cowards. If you`ve got a point, raise the issues in the article.
I read your comment three times, Im still not sure what youre trying to say. Can anyone help this genius out? Hit me back with something good next time boom-boom.

stuka

you are over-reacting. I do not consider India to be a military threat to pakistan. What india could not do with 1 million army will sure not be able to do with 2 million army now. Kargil was the last ditch effort to resolve the kashmir issue through regular army thus opening the doors for militancy further ajar. After kargil a nuclear detente has been established and it has been proven to be effective post 9/11. Thus a common sense policy for Pakistan would be to reduce its military strength from half a mil to just hundered thousand. We should model our army on the design of Israeli army which works under nuclear umbrella in a sea of hostile nations. If India wants to build its armies to fight its future wars with China or dominate southern hemisphere then so be it. Instead of numbers Pakistan should invest on military technology and this cannot be done until these jokers of generals are ruling Paksitan. Like Zia they should have gone for F-16s, stealth technology and missile technology when Us needs us but instead they are buying useless military equipment from america like condemned friggates and cannons that have proven in-effective both in Afghanistan and Iraq, what will we do with the gunship helicopters that can be brought down by mere Klashnikovs; what good are bradleys and humvies which have proven in-effective and death traps in Iraq. American tanks have also proven useless. But it doesn`t bother these jokers because they get their kickbacks either way. I know in the end these clowns will come begging to people like Dr. Qadeer whom they have insulted in such an outrageous manner to please their masters. But whether we get this stuff from americans or not, Indian threat has been neutralized.

33
//...what solutions you are proposing to solving the issue for those people out ...//

Let me venture into the treacherous area of finding a ``solution`` for palis:

First, stop fooling around with intefada/holy war and what have you. Violence against much larger force will get you nothing - so scale it down. Try to gain some moral high ground - do some non-violent stuff that Gandhi did. Then and only then you can play the american media game and build a constituency there among mainstream americans and politicians. It will work - a favorable american public opinion is the only hope for palis.

Don`t wabble in jewish-dominated media conspiracy theory - there are also many liberal jews who would like to give you fair deal. But unless you stop the intefada BS, they can`t help you.

Anycase - after 9/11, all your suicide-stunts would just back-fire, but if you go the non-violent way, that will have a double impact - it would also improve muslim image. I am not saying this would be easy - but I think post-911, that`s the only way.

And then keep all your demands on table but be prepared to settle for less. Get back to camp david - first build a state, have a govt`, an army, police, economy, investment, education - get some sanity back into your lives. Rest can wait. Decades of violence has given you nothing, only driven you nuts. You can continue like this forever - yet the enemy will never be softened. Only it will drive the entire population beyond salvage.

Time to think out of the box. For the sake of future generation. The onus is on the palis. The israelis are strong and will remain so for forseeable future.

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stuka,

[Also, you can use all the nukes you have and yet you cannot destroy all of India. But we can wipe out Islam from South Asia. We never did mind the Arabs being Muslims. Ttheir religion, they are welcome to it.]

A paki gets on your neves, yet you take solice in the idea that you may perchance be able to ``wipe out`` Islam from South Asia?!

Geez, Jinnah wasn`t such an idiot after all....we Indian Muslims thank you for your support...
good luck in planning our genocide.

Gibran,
I must congratulate you on a very well thought and well articulated articles. Im impressed by your way of thinking and remain hopeful that there are more muslims with the open minds. May god help us in getting out of these degenerate mindsets. god bless you and keep up the good work.

sajjad

A goragoochaater just cannot read this, but doesn`t feel any embarrasment in discussing the subjects he learnt in the totaa-mainaa producing schools..the english-medium type, the bible-flag mafia-missionary schools.

Please read and propagate this:

Those who are at the top: are the Top terrorists--the moderates

If you are from a rishvatkhore household or the type who fattens himself/herself on taxpayers money, the one who prides on alien accents , then you can never ever understand such issues.

Because:You and your kind ARE the problem.Pakistanis are busy acquiring knowledge from the right source to eliminate such problems.

P.S:-Please always use and overuse the word `` moderate`` as a gaali, with a sneer and hint of derision. Soon its true meanings will emerge.

vertex-when you do recognize that stuka was miffed and he overreacted-dont you think you are overreacting too? urstruly thinks that India is a Hindu country(which it is not) so if stuka thought that Pakistan is a Muslim country and thereby said wht he said,do you really think he was speaking against Indian muslims?Anyway,why do you think you need reassurance from stuka to believe that India is your country?

urstruly,wajahat- This guy is right on at least one count.Lets stick to Pakistan.
Gibran-You commented on echoboom because he attacked you personally,but why did you refrain from commenting on opressed,who made a very good point? In your own personal opinion he may be a visionary,but what personal vision is Musharraf personally showing by allowing these human rights violations?
http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00003928&channel=civic%20center
I dont know what your logic is that if someone shows dissent,without thinking of a solution,that is a weakness in character.Solutions dont come from the mind of one person.How about this for a solution-democracy? Let the person who runs the country not think too hard for a solution to impress you with strengh in character. Let all the people have some say in how to run the country.
ALthough you do make quite a few good points,but their importance is lost when you think that supporting Musharraf is supporting Pakistan.It is not.

Continued:42
This link is clearer:
Those who are at the top: are the Top terrorists--the moderates

Rahul: fair enough - things arent perfect. but i think the general consencus is that things arent PERFECT but they are GETTING BETTER. im not saying that lets all kiss Musharafs ass - but Im arguing against people who are anti - government because they are anti -american. its very easy to overlook the goods and focus on the bads, and that is what we as a society tend to do. most conversations end up (even in chowk) - as a discussion on the evils of American foreign policy. I think that if you look back in history - i have taken a few cases in the essay - that Muslims are partly too blame for a lot that has overcome them. its only by being open and honest and having a rational debate can one get anywhere - that is why i argue against people who just yap (like echoboom).

Why do we all seem to forget the moral arguments ie Do the right thing, do not lie, keep your promises, help the down trodden, if not in kind atleast with words. The many turns and shifts in the name of pragmatism[moderation] are nothing more than attempts at perpetuation of Musharrafs unconstitutional and despotic rule. What is sadly happening in Pakistan is that we have lost the moral ground. This moral ground is not tied to or the ijaradari any particular religion.
I am not a supporter of Jehad or any form of violence but I would like to ask but one question.? How do we rid ourselves of Musharraf who by now it is clear is not going to let go of the army or the Chief Executive [usurpers] position, call it what name you will. His isolation amongst a group of sycophants is now complete with SA becoming PM. What a sad commentary on the integrity and capability of 140 million people that not one among them was considered fit [by Musharraf ofcourse] that he had to install his imported stooge. The biggest qualification the man has for the job are that he has handled illgotten wealth discreetly and made even more money for his corrupt clients. He also has shown exceptional adeptness at manipulating figures by changing the basis for calcs on growth rates, reserves, definition of poor etc. Who cares a shit about the poor,where they will sleep or eat, or the future of this poor country. According to Mr Aziz we are now a MIddle Income country. You have to go to interior of Sindh or Balochistan to understand what desperation and poverty are all about. What a cruel joke...

Gibran,

How are you i just read your article it was excellent!!! I`m proud of you take care

Sadia
(stratford!!)

Gibran,

How are you i just read your article it was excellent!!! I`m proud of you take care

Sadia
(stratford!!)

Oppressed

Right on the money once again. As pathetic as Musharaf`s performance as a civilian ruler is, his military credentials are exceptionally dubios as well. His military perfomance speaks of gross incompetence. His military credentials as Chief were put to test in Kargil affair. As brilliant a plan of Kargil invasion was i.e. to occupy Kargil to cut off supply lines to Siachin, Mushraf was not the creator of this plan. The plan existed since 80`s and military sought approval from several governments since then. Mushraf as a commander in chief failed to correctly plan not only the operational details but also the stratgic planning as well. At operational level, he failed to plan a containment plan in case enemy discovered the movement of Pakistan army pre-maturely. And that is what exactly happened when some sheppards grazing their sheep in the area reported the movement of Pak army to Indians down at the base camp. Strategically he grossly underestimated the Indian response whether they discovered losing Kargil heights prematurely or not. Anyone with a half a brain could have known that India would fight tooth to nail in three months time slot to save its soldiers at Siachin. The operation on Pak side was so ill planned that in the final days of war Pakistani soldiers survived by eating grass. This is gross incompetence that resulted in the loss of thousands of Pakistani soldiers. As in the wars of 65 and 71, Pakistani army i.e. General Mushraf failed to plan on civil defence of cities incase India decided to embark on a full scale invasion. On the other hand civilian leadership and civil defence were caught as dumbfounded as deer caugt in head lights. This failure of military leadreship for cmplete lack of respect for the lives of their own civilian population is unforgivable.

Strategically, Mushraf as a military Chief also failed when he over-estimated the American threat. As it is clear from the mamoirs of Richard Clark and Tommy Frank Pakistan`s position was not as compromising as this despot led us to beleive - and this when we had a nuclear capability to fight back. It is true that every body gets wise after the fact, but as a military chief it was his job to evluate the threat and prepare a response that reflected the will of the people but instead he went crawling down to American demands. The performance of American army aka broiler chickens is evident during the first week of Iraqi invasion when it took them week to enter into just Basra. Now keep in ,mind that the weekest and most disorganized army in the world was that of Iraq which under ten years of sanctions and with periodic inspections was merely reduced to a police force. Even people like Muqtada Sadr with his fighters in bathroom slippers, and merely having assault rifles have taught such a lesson to Americans that they will be teaching in their military schools for next century. Mushraf has sold us cheap and his actions are tentamount to incompetence and treason. Not to mention that violating constitution is also treason. Those who support this despot in any shape of form are as treasonous snakes as he is. Those who write articles to justify his rule are also treasonous snakes. Those who support any stooges installed by him are also trasonous snakes. It is a patriotic and religious duty of every sane Pakistani citizen to dissociate himself from this treasonous snake.

Jibbe
There is an illusion that things are getting better, manipulated by the spinmasters both indigenous and of the foreign variety. Reality is entirely different. I will not go into how the economic figures have been manipulated but trust me they have. On which front may I ask have things improved; political, social ... economic. In any case are we not all equal in the eyes of God and the constitution. If so what about the rights of the 40 million+ living in abject poverty? what about the rights of the detainees at guantanamobay and the rights of the people arrested in Pakistan without judicial process.
Believe me Ahmed Quddus the so called mastermind and host of Khalid of Alqaeda is actually retarded and has a mental age of 12. Our Interior Minister and Musharraf himself do not tire of giving this example. Check it out. I am not spinning yarns

Jibbe:
Listen O moderate.

The people of pakistan and muslims and non-muslims alike from ALL countries oppressed by these Imperialist thugs, U.S and Britain ( sidekicks), will gladly pay attention to you if you write:

About ways and means to bring these thugs to their knees. Reduce them and humiliate them to a level that they never ever set foot outside their frontiers so to attempt mould the rest of the world in their own image. When these thugs start paying their dues to U.N like all civilised, albeit poor, nations do. When these thugs start behaving and obeying World Court rulings. When these Terrorists & thugs get wobbly knees when addressing the pious and practitioners of all religions.. & trash their their pseudo-Kristianity.

You think the readers here are stupid or what that you suddenly come-up with this enlightened idea. that shows your IQ level. As if we cannot see through your charade of being an Islam-lover. It is these moderates like Musharraf , Shaukat Aziz and such westoxicated scum who need to be taught the basics and fundamentals of civilisation.

P.S: A sudden crop of newly inducted members show that you`ve a fan club too. How pathetic indeed.

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[The Muslim world is like that family, * * *]

Wrong.

The Muslim world is like the family which India would become after centrifugal forces in India got better of centripetal forces (helped by manipulative powers like US etc).

India barely manages to keep down centrifugal forces. And it is helped by the fact that it is single political entity. Not to mention more than a couple of harassing nations in the neighborhood which keeps us united.

Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Indonesia, Malayasia, Sudan etc etc. Pakistan shares border with some. There they can send ISI operatives. That is all. You are not a family. Some of these nations have to willy nilly put up with sizable non-Muslim populations and pretend that they too are UK ishtyle or otherwise secular.

Pakistan can model itself after Japan and not India. Because it can never be one such. That is if it can model itself after Japan, which it cannot as long as it remains Islamic. Japan was already a military power which could harass US at the time of Pearl Harbor. In 19th century and before it was a closed nation. The fact that it advanced so quickly is credit to its people`s genius and their intelligence in seeing what is truly important.

About splitting two attitudes to religion one harmful and one progressive: it is like allowing camel to feel warm by letting its head in tent when you sleep. End result is camel was inside tent and kind hearted Arab was outside when he woke up in the morning. There is no such thing as progressive religion. Read about Descartes, Bacon etc. Dont be hung up about old Greek thinkers simply because some old Islamic thinker translated Aristotle etc. Think about Copernicus and Galileo and Newton and Einstein and Freud. Read about history of these men how they overcame their religion rather than succumb to it. It is okay to read old thinkers but you Islamic guys again read them through translators` eyes which presented tainted picture because they were forced to reconcile Islam with old philosophers.

And one last word on science. Philosophy is not science. World view of philosophy is completed. Science is forever tentative. My guess is the reason why Islamic people are enamored of ``complete`` systems of thinking is the fact Quran is presented as one such system and science openly challenges completeness at the very outset. Science has no ``complete`` system, everything is under construction. An attitude which is opposed to all religions.

All this instruction in Islam brainwashes muslims and forces them to become expert in sophistry and then their own sophistry becomes graveyard of straightforward logical thinking. Every muslim is put in same position of reconciling a complete and antiquated system with evolving system. And they react by becoming convoluted thinkers. You are YACM (=yet another confused muslim).

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opressed
can you give me an example in pakistan`s history which you yourself would feel comfortable proclaiming that `we were on the right track then?`

Urstruly:

I was over-reacting because u gave me reason to. You said Hindus are worse then atheist commies as far as relations with Muslims are concerned. I am no friend of Islamic radicalism but I feel that we have tried to do a decent job to give intellectual and religious freedom to Muslims. Sometimes we have failed. But our record is better then any communist country. Even in Kashmir, situation is far better after 15 years then Chechnya after 5 years. Any reasonable person will recognize that. But deoth of Indian hatred amongst Pakistanis like u seems to be so much that u will still choose atheist communist over Hindus. That is fine. Your comment was a great revelation.

Arjunm

The strategic advantage of an enemy cannot be construed as your enemy`s fault. Keeping this priciple in mind the freedom fighters of Mehdi Army wearing slippers, wielding assault rifles, and grenade launchers with total lack of mobility, artillery, and air support, but having an advantage of a safe enclave of Imam Ali`s shrine is not their fault just as American soldiers having their bullet proof suits, fighting vehicles, full air support, laser guided missile systems, tanks, APCs, uranium depleted weponary, mother of all bombs and nerve agents is not an American soldier`s fault.

Vertex:

Hey, Jinnah was an idiot. He left you to our mercy didn`t he. I have no interest in planning anyone`s genocide. But heck if there is a civilizational conflict between Hinduism and Islam and south asian borders become irrelevant, I know where I stand. And with all the Ummah stuff you talk about, so do you. No apologies given or asked for.

Stuka

Now you are making things up only to justify your anger and vent your frustration for another matter. I never said that ``You said Hindus are worse then atheist commies as far as relations with Muslims are concerned.`

However, what I said was as follows, which got yours and tough-talking mohar11`s goat, who was reduced to talking loser talk of shoulda, coulda, woulda etc. I said:


``Similarly, take Zia ul Haque, despite his actions that have torn the social fabric of our country and to this date after 15 years it ails us, but when he died, his funeral was attended by millions of people in recognition of his efforts to defeat a superpower and thus protecting the homeland from becoming another Soviet satellite or worst an Indian underdog. ``


You Hindu people should get this crazy idea out of your head once and for all that Pakistan will ever accept India`s economic or military hegemony, ever. We would rather die than bow to India ever. As a matter of fact Hindu people should open their eyes and see what happened in Bangladesh, a territory a thosand miles apart from mainland with an enemy country in the middle is hardly a military conquest at all. Compare this to Kasmir, where India is keeping 3 quarters of a million army just to keep it under control when unlike Bangladesh Kashmir is totally contiguous to India. Let us admit that basically you are baniya people, playing with weapons is a dangerous game for you, and in the end only you will hurt yourself. So try to learn to live like normal human beings in the area. Live and let live.

Ursturly:

``from becoming another Soviet satellite or worst an Indian underdog. ``

Sir, pardon me for not being intelligent enough but I read the statement as your preferring to be a Soviet sattelite as compared to being an underdog to India. Now, unless we mean different things, underdog refers to a power equation where a country ten times smaller to another is naturally an underdog to the latter. But a satellite essentially means revocation of independence, a slave stae. Hence u would prefer to be a satellite to the USSR then an underdog to India.

As far as bainyas are concerned, the baniyas have done a pretty good job charging up slopes and taking bullets in their chests for their country.

Baniya fauj broadened the war to all of Pakistan and retained Kashmir in 1965 war.

Baniya Faujis have risked life and limb and die every day to protect their land in Kashmir without using ariel bombing and gunships unlike their Mujahid counterparts in Wana.

Baniyas faujis took the heights of Siachen and hold on to it with tenacity.

Baniya generals stay on the front facing the enemy not inspecting drains in GB Road unlike their Martial Muslim counterparts of Pakistan.

So please tell me exactly what traits should we look at?

#48 by Urstruly

I have gathered from your various posts here, that it was not in the distance past that you were raising different Islamic flags to defend the army. You seemed to have repented since. You fervor still has not ebbed. It is just going in reverse. It is easy to take extreme positions but your position is not tenable. You cannot support political Islam and oppose the army in the same breath; at least not in the backdrop of Pak politics. Political Islam in Pak relies heavily on the Army to survive and it has been proven every step of the way. Unfortunately, the army in Pakistan had also been the mainstay of the extremist Islam.

I am not disagreeing with you on the army’s role in Pakistan and how it has destroyed the country in the last 50 years. Regretfully; your opposition to the army only goes back to the aftermath of 9-11. Everything, which the army did and you rightly mentioned in your post, happened before 9-11. Now you are denouncing the army because it was forced to go after the extremists under duress, in my opinion. If the Pak army had a choice it would still have stuck it out with the extreme Islam and that is where you really would like army to be; a supporter of the extreme Islam.

Hypothetically speaking, if today the Pak Army reverses its course and goes back to protecting the religious extremists like it did before 9-11, would you reverse your position and support the army again like you always did?

[The Quran argues for tolerance, and while there should not be a total separation of church and state, there should be limits. While we should follow the laws and punishments set in the Quran, we should also exercise judgement; we have developed since the original texts were written and thus I question the aversion to still decapitate people, chop off hands, and stone to adulterers to death. ]

Quran koee aadamee nahee hai. Quran is not a person. So when you say that ``the Quran argues for tolerance`` I have to assume that it is your interpretation. Good. And then you are saying that you question aversion. Aversion means dislike. Question dislike means supporting. Right? So you support stoning to death? Wah Bhai Wah! Tolerance key salesman abhee stones ley key taiyyar hai. Unless you got your English screwed up here?

urstruly
//.... territory a thosand miles apart from mainland with an enemy country in the middle is hardly a military conquest at all. ...//

Heck - I thought you are different from the Fauji jacka$$es you rant against...... You lost more than half your muslim brothers at the mercy of the barbaric bania army and this is the best excuse you can come up with : ``Thousand miles from the mainland``???

You know - you sound just like your much-hated americans in Iraq - because they too give similar excuses for why they continue to fail to neutralize the rag tag ``Mehdi Army in bathroom slippers``(your words).

And worse - I see no difference between you and your much-hated faujis .... because this is exactly what paki army does when it comes to `71 war : narrate elaborate excuses and sob-stories for the fact that they lost half your country. ( Come to think of it that`s only thing paki army do best - provide sob-stories and lame excuses for their gross incompetency. Now I see that disease has spread to you too. )

So there you are, the tough islamic warrior and saviour of the ummah ... shedding copious tears, putting up false bravado, giving pathetic excuses on how his ``martial`` race lost half his country to a bania army. Do you realize how miserable that is?? COme on - you can do better than this.

+++
//...We would rather die than bow to India ever...//

Really? Last time you bowed to India, begged for lives of 90,000 islamic warriors .... and yet, nobody died. No paki gave a sh!t - they just shrugged and went back to live their miserable lives as loosers.

HP

Your post does not make it clear whether your post is addressed to me as an individual or a group to whom I share some of my ideas with.

As far as I am concerned, as an individual, my opposition to army and Musharaf goes way back prior to 9/11. Prior to June 2001, I was not at all anti-army at all, and I must ashamedly admit that I had a soft corner for mushrafa as well. The day when Musharaf declared himself President, I stopped siding with army as well and that is before 9/11.

http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00001087&channel=civic%20center&start=140&end=143&page=15&chapter=2&order=0#1

During Zia ul Haq time, whose political standing may persumably be considered closer to my ideology, I have taken part in violent anti-government and anti-military protests and my back and my ribs still bear the scars from the baton charges that I faced. I believe in the power of people which lays dormant in todays Pakistan. I do not beleive in the shortcuts in the lives of nations. The path to progress lies only in the proper channel. People of Paksitan, since the extra-judicial murder of Bhutto have been disenfranchised and sidelined. We do not need messiah`s like Musharaf.

I have my faith in the people of Pakistan. Today, if people like Gibran Bham go to a village in Pakistan, they will be chased out of village by dogs, leaving their pants behind. These spinmasters for this government and the slave minded class in the society is like algae (Kai) on a pool of water, which carries no weight, and yet seems to dominate whole pool. But the reality always is that under that ugly algae there is a massive body of fresh water. This is our dirt, our liability and not an asset. And it is us the people of Pakistan who have to clean this mess up. Don`t you see, in America, where the President is the most powerful person on the planet has to beg for his votes, he has to go into the public despite being a prime target for terrorists, and he has to do all the shananigans that he is doing just to get elected. (i did not use the word re-elected delibrately). And we have a Prime Minister in Pakistan who addresses his constituents, let alone the rest of Paksitan, on telephone. No where in the history of mankind a PM is appointed first and then elected later. Don`t you even feel a shred of shame what they have turned our beautiful country into. Military as an institution is a curse upon Pakistan. It is incumbent upon military to come clean thru the mess it had made or it will be dealt with by the people. And wrath of people is the wrath of God.

Suka

The only trait you should follow is to mind your own business and not poke your nose where it doesn`t belong. The internal political problems of Paksitan are our problems and not yours so keep off. But if you decide to poke your nose anyway then develop some tolerance and patience to deal with an opposing point of view.

urstruly, the prophet osama, the jackass, and the one-eyed disciple ........

............ years ago, perhaps in my first incarnation as hamidm, i wrote this little fable (maybe it was a revelation) about urstruly leading the jackass that the prophet osama rode on his way to kandahar ..............or maybe it was osama leading the jackass while urstruly rode, chewing ganderis and spitting out the cud ..........in any case, at a dusty cross-roads on this road to nowhere, they met up with a one-eyed disciple and over a lunch of pungent goat cheese and week-old afghani nan decided to wreck havoc on the civilized world and horrible hindoos ......... the jackass heard all this nonsense and decided he had suffered enough fools and prophets and took off braying, ``astagfirullah, anouzobillah``.............. so the last time we saw this trio, they were chasing after the poor jackass in their sweat-stained night robes with towels on their heads and bathroom slippers on their feet ............

............ that was a few years ago and a lot of water has run down the euphrates since then ................... the one-eyed disciple has not been seen since; the prophet is hiding in a deep dark cave somewhere along the border between afghanistan and pakistan waiting for gabriel to bring him his next battle plans; the jackass joined the us special forces and was awarded three purple hearts and a silver star for delivering the latest issue of playboy under enemy fire and was recently appointed as the official mascot of the democratic party .............. but what happened to urstruly ?............... it seems he quickly found his way back to his cave in flint and now sits at the keyboard wrecking havoc on unsuspecting civilized folks and horrible hindoos who venture into cyberspace ............... his jihad continues .............. astagfirullah!

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Rahul_Capri

Post#41

Quote:

`` Anyway,why do you think you need reassurance from stuka to believe that India is your country? ``

A valid, and an excellent question, in the circumstances.

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Wajahat

Post # 20

Quote:

``The Terms of OSLO were prejudiced and one sided and am Feckin ready to have an argument with any you imbibers of Right Wing Journalistic Bullshiit about OSLO being Detroyed by Arafat. It was a NonPlan to start off with.``

Oh, the paper/document/agreement on which Palestinians, who are the affected party, signed, do not know a thing about their own country or the agreement but here comes a Pakistani or a well wisher of Pakistan, who would like others to believe that a Pakistani knows more about it? And this, when Pakistan did play its own role in killing those very Palestinians whose cause today it seems to be espousing. Is this not rich come from people like that in such an emotional ........... ?

Wajahat

In my previous post I meant, Pakistan was instrumental and active contributor to .........

[* * *
While we should follow the laws and punishments set in the Quran, we should also exercise judgement; we have developed since the original texts were written and thus ...
* * *
The Quran, my friends, is a beautiful book and it is the only reason I believe in God, and it is the reason why Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. Read it, enjoy it, and see how tolerant and loving your God is, and see what he is not. He is not a God of Extremism, who dictates your every move, He is loving and just.
* * *
The Hadeeth often paint an intolerant picture, which is diametrically opposed to those you see in the Quran - the word of God. I do not advocate not reading the Hadeeth; on the contrary I support it. So read the hadeeth and if it makes sense, as your gut and heart that God has made will tell you, then follow it, otherwise be wary. ]

Reminds me a story, dont know true or false. Mirza Ghalib was once nagged by wife into praying. When he had just started unwillingly to sit down to pray his drinking buddy appeared almost as an answer to his prayer. Mirza said later to wife that he did not want to spoil name of Allah in thinking that he was answering the prayer. The point is if I have to exercise judgement, that means there is extra-Quran entity (one or more principles, my own psyche, heart etc whatever) which will give me a standard against which to exercise this judgement then why not just adopt that extra-Quran thing? If Quran may be granted the freedom of an evolving system then why have it at all, why not have a broad education which instructs about other religions also? Why not teach about science? After all this extra-Quran thing exists in all humans? Right? And that will guide everyone? Right? Let everyone choose and pick what to believe and what not to. After all there is this guiding spirit in all of us. It will guide us in our effort.

Okay that means we can have a Muslim reneging on his former religion? Because his heart said so? Can we? Or, will such renegade Muslim face music from painters of intolerant pictures? And may be more, like some stones may be?

Question is why let camel warm his nostrils if he throws you out of tent? After all you dont need camel. Religion comes with all its baggage. At some point one has to decide that whether one wants to have any of it. Who decides which parts are good and bad? There is no foolproof plan to keep out bad parts of religion. Only science has required cynicism which can keep process of revision alive.

Wajahat

Post# 11

Quote:

``If the palestinians had practical solutions, access to implementing practical solutions, why the Feck will those demented people kill themselves. Israel`s serial incursions into Palestinian areas and systematic destruction of Institutions, Equipment and systems, diallows any PRACTICAL SOLUTIONS to become a resounding fact.``

Pray what Pakistan or well wishers of Pakistan have got anything to do with Palestine/Palestinians given that Pakistan/is have been quite instrumental in killing and throwing Palestinians away from Jordan? Why this holier than thou/others attitude/statement? Is it, so long it is ``we`` who do the killing it is okay but when it happens to be others who are ``retaliating``, ``we`` come out with emotional .............

``The only trait you should follow is to mind your own business and not poke your nose where it doesn`t belong. The internal political problems of Paksitan are our problems and not yours so keep off. But if you decide to poke your nose anyway then develop some tolerance and patience to deal with an opposing point of view``

Urstruly

What the hell does your post have anything to with anything I have taken issue with? Never mind. India does not have a reason to poke a nose in Paki affairs. The Americans are doing a good enuff job.

rajsingh1

The Pakistan Army has been complicit with a lot of things around the world. The question of the Palestinian refugees has been a long one for all the Muslim States and their treatment has been varied. Remember the decision lies with the Kings and Sheikhs who want cordial relationships with the West. Does that make the initial ethnic cleansing and continued persecution of the Palestinian refugees in their refugee camps by Israel any less off a fact...

Do detail your point about Pakistanis killing Palestinian, and enlighten us...

rahul,

Soothing words from people like yourself are infinitely more valuable than the rantings of an imbicile, I`ll give you that.

``Anyway,why do you think you need reassurance from stuka to believe that India is your country?``

We don`t, but it`s none too reassuring when there is suggestions to the contrary. Slip-ups like his admit to at best a hostile attitude towards a ``tolerated`` (like a toothache) community. Let`s put it this way. If a Muslim decided to j