Questioning the Hadeeth

Re: # 119

What does it mean practicing Islam? Is it a profession like the law to be practiced by a lawyer? Then only the mullah practices it and perverts it to his own professional requirements as the lawyers generally do. May I ask what is the basis for oferring `Namaz` behind a mullah in his loud-speaker studded mullah plaza called masjid when the entire surface of earth is Allah`s mosque? In any case where is the guarantee that all muslims will go to heaven even after going through all those practices prescribed by the mullah whereas some other religions offer much better prospects of going to heaven.

It is my observation that hadeeth is being rejected by people who wish to call themselves moderate muslims. These are people who wish to play it safe. They do not want to desert religion and risk Hellfire and at the same time they do not wish to be burdened by the responsibilities of practicing religion. How does rejecting hadeeth help?

Well, Quran does not ask for separating sexes. Put hadeeth out of the picture and you can still be a good moderate muslim while dating your girlfriend. Music is pretty much allowed in absence of hadeeth and you can get away even with zakat. Dress-codes are not mentioned in the Quran so it makes more room for modernization.

The list can go on and on. But the very people who narrated hadeeth and compiled the Quran for us and if we doubt they made mistakes in hadeeth than let us not hold high our Quran as authentic.

Sorry for the typographic mistake in the frst line of my post. Please read `inspired` for `inpired`.

nasah

Wonderful nasah! You seem to be inpired. What can we expect from the worshippers of Illamdini culture and the black stone or Kaali Devi who are marauding in the name of Islam? This gave rise to Bush-Blair culture. The dialectics working in a very brutal way and the humanity going to hell. No one is there to speak for the humanity in this war of barbaric cults- only nasah and...

what else cud be the plight of Deen at our own hands, when we ourselves make n tend to make such topics controvertial (n that too, at the arguements like this ``enlightened moderation``.....!!)....

Allah Keep us safe from fitn`az, and Give us the courage to fight them thru out....Aameen...


Nabi SAW kay zamaanay mein wars theein......aman o amaan thaa......life styles thay.......muaakhaat thaa......nahin thein tau discussions for sake of discussions, religious forums, bay amli, debates, sects, enlighteneing, taraqqee pasandee....

this is with refence to the article``Questioning Hadeeth``, one thing that amazed me that this articles has been read 4490 times, and no interact? phew
this article has touched a very pertinent issue. i cant agree more on the fact that amount of conocted Hadeeth is more then the reliabale ones. and we need to devolpe a new apporach to Hadeeth science and have to discard the clasical concepts surrounding us .
the edifice of clergy`s hold on the muslim society lies heavily on Hadeeth. and we should bear in mind that the clergy would do whatever it takes to safe guard its interests.
when u question the Hadeeth`s validity the frist reaction whihch a muslim would give u would be he stare at u with wide as eyes, and then without a second thought he would label u a ``munk-r-e-Hadeeth``,and would think of u as a heretic.
well Mr.Gibran i cant appreciate u more on writing on such a pertinent topic.
and i this can be topic for the researchers and scholars out there.
once again Brao mr.gibran for doing such a great job

any pakistani is fundamentally an islamist whether fanatical or balanced isd the debate.people who treat a book written by ordinary people 250 years after `their` god had spoken as flawless could not be more flawed in theor thinking.these nitwits will never understand that killing anbody whether in the name of jihad or some bearded mullah rhetoric is inhuman.but i guess it is too much to expect from people who still allow 4 marriages for the male and sexual slavery for the female.
grow up and see the world has changed!!!!!

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#104 by rsridhar on September 5, 2004 2:00pm PT

The literalist have ruled the Islamic intellectual horizon for long- and when you try to look at a ``deeper meaning`` in any of the Surahs and Hadeeths these mullahs would pounce on you.
I agree that Yoga does provide great therapeautic treatment to disturbed minds.

hamidm #108 the mullahs (and their chamchas, like echosqueek) are no real threat to society - they were jokes in pakistani society and gained prominence only because our military found it convenient to use them for their own goals.

I dont know if you recall this, but in pakistan the standard rule was that if a boy was good for nothing, you sent him to the military (i remember interservices selection board officers joking about this among themselves) - and if he was rejected even from that, and if he lacked any other means of sustenance, he became a maulvi. And they carry no mass appeal (after all, they have nothing to offer except curses to all and sundry and stupid mullah issues that having nothing to do with either religion of real life).

but that of course does not mean they can be ignored - after all, too many innocent people have been killed at their hands to consider them. I do differ with you on the matter of whether these clowns represent islam (as you think) or whether they have nothing to do with islam (as I believe). Since we have had this discussion before, seems like there is nothing i can say to convince you otherwise, and so will agree to disagree (and hope someday you will reflect upon the points i made in earlier discussions). But we can both agree, I think, that the mullah has no place in any society - like priests in other religions, they have contributed nothing to human progress through the ages, and served only to cause innocent people to suffer. Even great muslims scientists like ibn sina and reformers like sir syed ahmed khan were pilloried by these rascals.

#108 by hamidm2 on September 5, 2004 3:44pm PT

Well said. Our problem is that we are not willing to take a firm stand against terror killings by those who clearly want to ingulf this world into mindless communal violence- we want to take a moral stand as per the circumstances of the day and link it to the condemnation of atrocities in other parts of the world. By doing so we try to assume a superior moral stand and close our eyes at the enemy which is now standing at our own gates!!

[When did I defend Russian brutality?]

Forgive me if I was wrong, however I thought your distinction between so-called collateral casualties and the victims of terrorist attacks implied one was more or less acceptable, while the other was condemnable. My point is that the two acts are much more close than apart.

tahmed,

.......... so echoboom finally got to you ?........... but the fact of the matter is that these guys who walk around with unkempt beards, foul breath and the mark of satan on their foreheads are not the real threat ....... the real threat comes from those who refuse to stand up to them because they believe in the veracity of the book and are afraid that al-lah will smite them if they dare to challenge her ``revelations``............ just as the german nation was an accessory to the crimes committed by the nazis, the ummah is culpable in the present crimes against humankind (particularly womankind) being perpetrated by the islamists ..........

echosqueeeeek: your hatred for those brought up in cantonments indicates a bitterness at having being raised in the shi!tty (literally) streets of raja bazaar yourself. your inferiority complex with respect to white people has already been unwittingly revealed by you when you were wetting your pants with delight at a picture of gora faces in an audience listening to that bearded clown who is your hero.

Given your leecher personality, it is no surprise you have to hide behind a pompous nick while hiding your true name and cursing the rest of the world that did not have its origins in the gutters like you.

Gibran,

I am not an Islamic scholar nor a linguist specializing in Arabic and I am 100% sure you are not one either. So if you expect me to listen to your arguments and ignore 1400 years of work done by Islamic scholars and jurists then I am sorry I cannot do that. Implying that the killing of 12 nepalese is somehow supported by Islam and by muslims and me for that matter is once again an idiotic assumption to say the least. You off course forget to mention the 100,000 plus who died in Afghanistan and God knows how many who have died in Iraq. As I said in my first response to your article you are expressing opinions using your limited knowledge of Islam. Nothing I say or do will change your mind. Instead of reforming Islam why not try and following it. I ask you do you follow the five basic pillars of Islam. Sadly this isnt about Islam or Hadith or the Quran its about you and the way you want to live your life as it is for all of us. Instead of following the religion you want the religion to change to your needs and circumstances. Thats what reform is, inst it?. So with that said I wish you good luck.

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re:#103 by ballukhan
You will note that my question about Qoran`s relevance today was rhetorical. I was not trying to make fun of his religion, which is also the religion of 100 million Indian muslims.
I was trying to say if people like him would ever stop looking at that text literally and go for a deeper inner meaning, which exists in all scriptures.
Or course, the point was lost on the moron.
The guy really showed his class. He chose to respond by denigrading my religion, a religion which has given the world Yoga and meditation and innumerable other assets.
Recently, Sri Sri Ravishankar was in Pakistan. Perhaps the moron in question should have attended his lecures. His I.Q would have come up a few notches above where it stands right now.
Sridhar

#98 by rsridhar on September 5, 2004 6:20am PT

Agreed!
With posts like this from Hamid 81 I do not see any hope:

``.....rsridhar, you idol worshipping people whose Idols I can break with one sweep of my arm, are telling me what to do? Accept the facts, we ruled you and we will rule you: With the Koran and the Sunnah. We killed the idol worshippers and morons like you and will do it again. InshaAllah. And when did your stupid Bhagwans lived? In 2004? On top of the Himalayah? You don`t even know who they were. Whether they were real people or animals. A animal worshipping nation who is backword and hilarious in their beliefs should in my view be destroyed. So just shut up and pray to your Kali Mai that Pakistan doesn`t nuke you. Or else your Bhagwans will too be nuked with you. ..........``

click here
An excellent analysis for the illiterates. only if they could read this.
Those who can read this would know the mindset of the illiterates of Pakistan..the drooling-dogs from cantonements & colonies.

rsridhar,

``The sad state of education in your country reflects in some of the posts by Pakis in Chowk. I have been in Chowk long enough to know this to be a fact. ``

Problem: I`m not a paki. Anyhow, your ``knowledge`` of ``facts`` is questionable....

``BJP is a political party with religious ideology``

As I said, they are a religio-political outfit. Just like the Mullahs (or at least the Mullahs you are talking about) are. The Mullahs do not command an institutionalized role in the vast majority (even self-declared ``Islamic``) ones. The Mullah and BJP are analogs in form and function. What does the BJP have to do with Hinduism? Exactly the same thing the Mullah has to do with Islam.

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digit:
``then I`m afraid this condemnation of the acts of criminal terrorists coupled with the excusing of grander Russian brutality inspires little confidence in the moral compass you guide yourself by.``

When did I defend Russian brutality?

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re:#94 by vertex
The sad state of education in your country reflects in some of the posts by Pakis in Chowk. I have been in Chowk long enough to know this to be a fact.

``Sigh*. Yes, Yes, hinduism is not a religion, it is a loose philosophy that is everything...yet nothing....all that and a wagonwheel. Therefore, there can be no fundementalism, blah blah blah. You know exactly what I mean, they are a religio-political hindu organization. Very much analogos to the Mullah. Who cares how they got power.``
What has BJP got to do with Hinduism? Seriously, are u guys in some kind of mass hypnosis?
BJP is a political party with religious ideology. It is upto the people whether to accept or reject that ideology. As the last general elections have shown, majority have rejected that ideology. In a democrazy, even extreme ideology has a place under the sun.
You say who cares how they got to power. That shows your total ignorance of the concept of democracy.
``Geez...so I guess if the mullah was directly elected, then everything would be hunky- dory?``
If the mullahs manage a majority vote in a fair election, they would be justified to say that they have people`s backing of their ideology, just like BJP was trying to say that majority voted for its ``hindutva`` ideology when it was in power. But, that has not happened in Pak, has it?
Sridhar

How many faithfuls on the chowk think that the yesterday`s events in Russia is a justifiable reaction to all the hapennings in Chechenya?

is this editorial-column in Jang any different? Imran Khan, Mahathir, S.H. Hasmi, Irshad Haqqani and so many others are saying the same thing about the brown-sahib syndrome in Pakistan. The brown-sahib, the drooling-dog of the west.

Iran got rid of them. Pakistan will be cleansed of them as well., inshallah. The Top drooling-dog on chowk got the message. That was the purpose of the post.

More is in store, if this drooling-dog of his masters does not stop his rabid anti-islam and anti-muslim yelpings.

Mahathir for Ummah’s Excellence in Science
Pakistan Times Staff Report

2nd day of UMMAH conference : Hamdard ] please access:
http://www.hamdard.edu.pk

KARACHI: Former prime minister of Malaysia, Dr. Mahathir
Bin Mohamad, has stressed that excellence must be attained
in science to make headway, strengthen ourselves and defend
the Ummah.

He was speaking on the occasion of a special convocation of
Hamdard University Pakistan here on Saturday. Mahathir
arrived here on a two-day visit on Friday.

An honorary degree of Doctor of Science was conferred
on the distinguished guest in recognition of his immense
contributions to the cause of Muslim Ummah.

Sindh Governor Dr. Ishrat-ul- Ebad Khan, who is also the
patron of Hamdard University, conferred the honorary
degree on Dr. Mahathir on the occasion.

The former Malaysian premier pointed out that Holy Quran
ordains that Muslims must always be prepared to defend
themselves.

For this in the present era, he added, it is necessary to
excel in the realms of science and technology.

Dr. Mahathir was of the view that because we the Muslims
have neglected science we are weak and depend on others
for the weapons to defend the Ummah. The fault is entirely
our own.

He pointed out that the knowledge of science would enable
us to provide the defensive weapons that we need to
protect the Ummah.

Therefore, the former Malaysian premier, stressed we must
acquire knowledge and particularly that of the science.

He pointed out that the learning of science would also further
strengthen our faith in God Almighty.

Dr. Mahathir stated that scientists have even greater faith in
religion and there is no truth in the notion that science would
in any way undermine our faith in the religion.

He said the knowledge of science contributes towards the
betterment of humanity and the betterment of life of the people.

The former Malaysian premier pointed out that in the past
there were great Muslim scholars and referred to Ibne Sina
and Ibne Rushd besides others.

He said that they studied science to explain the nature around us.
They also studied the works of previous great philosophers from
among the Greek, Roman, Chinese etc.

Dr. Mahathir called upon the Muslims the world over to attain
excellence in various disciplines of knowledge particularly in
the realms of science.

He pointed out that our religion enjoins upon the faithfuls to
acquire knowledge from wherever it is available.

The former premier stressed that the acquisition of knowledge
would lead to progress and development and would help provide
protection and would contribute towards the defence of the Muslim
Ummah.

The President of Hamdard Foundation Pakistan, Ms. Sadia Rashid,
paid rich tributes to Dr. Mahathir for his exceptional leadership qualities.

She also spoke of his role towards the industrial, technological and
educational advancement in Malaysia.

The Chancellor of Hamdard University, Senator S.M. Zafar, praised
the contributions of Dr. Mahathir for the progress of the Malaysians
as well as for the cause of the Ummah.●

---

This is especially reproduced for the drooling-dogs of the west,
like Musharraf and Shaukat Aziz, so that they start biting
into their mangy flea-infested rumps while
their master humps them.

dost,

[I beg to differ. There is a clear distinction between targetting innocents and unintended victims.]

Yes, the ``Oops factor``. I`m sorry, however ignorance of your victims does not imply innocence. More so when the actions you are carrying out are inherently destructive. Bombing a city block has ``unintended`` consequences? That`s news to me...as you said, these are considered as ``acceptable`` or ``collateral`` casualties. They are fully expected. Would it satisfy you, morally speaking, if the terrorists were blindfolded and only fired randomly, unawares of who they hit or not? I would hope not.

[Now, if you can tell me that the Russians have been ``targetting`` innoncent Chechen children, you may have a point.]

No, they were not targeting children specifically. In fact, they didn`t care one way or the other. That is not a morally superior position. Like I said, not equivalent however moral siblings. Now, when you throw in the fact that the Russians managed to kill orders of magnitude more innocent people than the terrorists did, then I`m afraid this condemnation of the acts of criminal terrorists coupled with the excusing of grander Russian brutality inspires little confidence in the moral compass you guide yourself by.

rsridhar,

``Is that why Salman Rushdie was in hiding after a Fatwa was issued by the Iran Clerics against his life? You should have told him not to worry. I am sure he would have heeded your words! ``

Dude, I made an explicit exception of Iran. Iran is in fact run directly by the clerics. I am unaware of any other Islamic kingdom or state that has ever had that state of affairs before...

[BJP is not religious hindu, whatever that means.]

*Sigh*. Yes, Yes, hinduism is not a religion, it is a loose philosophy that is everything...yet nothing....all that and a wagonwheel. Therefore, there can be no fundementalism, blah blah blah. You know exactly what I mean, they are a religio-political hindu organization. Very much analogos to the Mullah. Who cares how they got power.

[It is a political party, like the Congress and gets its power from the people thr` elections. Gosh! Do u guys have any concept of democracy?]

Geez...so I guess if the mullah was directly elected, then everything would be hunky- dory?

...... echoes of a terrorist in the making ?

``And then the drooling-dogs, tails-a-wagging, entreat with the masters `` Oh please sir, does that enhance your pleasure screwing me``?

These are the westoxicted mutts, the hybrids, the mongrels, the pye-dogs from cantonements & colonies. ``

........... now, tell me, if these are not the pitiful cries of an infant terrorist ?.......... there is so much venom, so much hatred, that if it were up to these guys we would all be marched into the stadium and hung from the goal posts ..............the civilized world must stand firm to make sure the taliban don`t raise their ugly heads again ..........

#68 by vertex

``The clergy has NO power in the Islamic world, except the domain of family law. Religious leaders are usually vetted by the leaders, and so represent the government line quite closely. ``
Is that why Salman Rushdie was in hiding after a Fatwa was issued by the Iran Clerics against his life? You should have told him not to worry. I am sure he would have heeded your words!

``The BJP (being religous Hindu`s) had infinitely more power than any Mullah had....other than Iran perhaps...``
BJP is not religious hindu, whatever that means. It is a political party, like the Congress and gets its power from the people thr` elections. Gosh! Do u guys have any concept of democracy?
Sridhar

Clock ticking on Osama Bin Hidin` .......

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?floc=FF-APO-PLS&idq=/ff/story/0001/20040904/1338223256.htm&photoid=20040810ISL105

I am imagining Osama paraded in the center of Times square. Drenched in pork blood and slaps on his sorry face with my fine Hyderabadi Chappal.

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After last week`s events in Russia, I am begining to understand why Bush may be re-elected.

``a prominent Arab journalist wrote that Muslims must acknowledge the painful fact that Muslims are the main perpetrators of terrorism.

``Our terrorist sons are an end-product of our corrupted culture,`` Abdulrahman al-Rashed, general manager of Al-Arabiya television, wrote in his daily column published in the Asharq Al-Awsat newspaper. It ran under the headline, ``The Painful Truth: All the World Terrorists are Muslims!``

Al-Rashed ran through a list of recent attacks by Islamic extremist groups - in Russia, Iraq, Sudan, Saudi Arabia and Yemen - many of which are influenced by the ideology of Osama bin Laden, the Saudi-born leader of the al-Qaida terror network.

``Most perpetrators of suicide operations in buses, schools and residential buildings around the world for the past 10 years have been Muslims,`` he wrote. Muslims will be unable to cleanse their image unless ``we admit the scandalous facts,`` rather than offer condemnations or justifications.

``The picture is humiliating, painful and harsh for all of us.``

Arab TV stations repeatedly aired footage of terrified young survivors being carried from the school siege scene, while pictures of dead and wounded children ran on front pages of Saturday`s newspapers in the region.

Ahmed Bahgat, an Egyptian Islamist and columnist for Egypt`s leading pro-government newspaper, Al-Ahram, wrote that the images ``showed Muslims as monsters who are fed by the blood of children and the pain of their families.``

``If all the enemies of Islam united together and decided to harm it ... they wouldn`t have ruined and harmed its image as much as the sons of Islam have done by their stupidity, miscalculations, and misunderstanding of the nature of this age,`` Bahgat wrote.

Mona Khalil, a 48-year-old secretary in Amman, said her heart ached at the sight of the frightened children and their weeping relatives.

``What on earth were the kidnappers thinking about when they took the children hostage?`` she asked. ``These criminals don`t fear God? They have no mercy in their hearts?

They don`t have children?``

Mohammed Saleh Ebrahim, a 31-year-old Bahraini who was back-to-school shopping in the Gulf island nation with his two daughters, described the hostage-takers as ``worse than animals.``

---

the excerpts show that there are NORMAL decent Muslims all over the world.....

one thing I have to say about this most grisly massacre of the entire world`s history -- where two hundred CHILDREN perished while being ``rescued`` -- that the Russian Army is no less Brutal than thos Laanati Islamists -- the so called ``resue`` was no better than the kidnapping -- what the hell those cruel RUssians were thinking entering with blazing guns in in a Hall filled with 600 terrorized crying children......

.....the Ex KGB Putin is a Stalinist Monster...... once a Stalinist always a Stalinist....

#62 by sri on September 3, 2004 10:48am PT

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

What is the probability that those terrorists were trained in Pakistan/Afghanistan. I think it is
very high.

Liberating America From Israel

by Paul Findley

NOTE: Mr. Paul Findley served as a Republican congressman from Illinois for 22 years.

Nine-eleven would not have occurred if the U.S. government had refused to help Israel humiliate and destroy Palestinian society. Few express this conclusion publicly, but many believe it is the truth. I believe the catastrophe could have been prevented if any U.S. president during the past 35 years had had the courage and wisdom to suspend all U.S. aid until Israel withdrew from the Arab land seized in the 1967 Arab-Israeli war.

The U.S. lobby for Israel is powerful and intimidating, but any determined president-even President Bush this very day-could prevail and win overwhelming public support for the suspension of aid by laying these facts before the American people:

Israel`s present government, like its predecessors, is determined to annex the West Bank-biblical Judea and Samaria - so Israel will become Greater Israel. Ultra-Orthodox Jews, who maintain a powerful role in Israeli politics, believe the Jewish Messiah will not come until Greater Israel is a reality. Although a minority in Israel, they are committed, aggressive, and influential. Because of deep religious conviction, they are determined to prevent Palestinians from gaining statehood on any part of the West Bank.

In its violent assaults on Palestinians, Israel uses the pretext of eradicating terrorism, but its forces are actually engaged advancing the territorial expansion just cited. Under the guise of anti-terrorism, Israeli forces treat Palestinians worse than cattle. With due process nowhere to be found, hundreds are detained for long periods and most are tortured. Some are assassinated. Homes, orchards, and business places are destroyed. Entire cities are kept under intermittent curfew, some confinements lasting for weeks. Injured or ill Palestinians needing emergency medical care are routinely held at checkpoints for an hour or more. Many children are undernourished. The West Bank and Gaza have become giant concentration camps. None of this could have occurred without U.S. support. Perhaps Israeli officials believe life will become so unbearable that most Palestinians will eventually leave their ancestral homes.

Once beloved worldwide, the U.S. government finds itself reviled in most countries because it provides unconditional support of Israeli violations of the United Nations Charter, international law, and the precepts of all major religious faiths.

How did the American people get into this fix?

Nine-eleven had its principal origin 35 years ago when Israel`s U.S. lobby began its unbroken success in stifling debate about the proper U.S. role in the Arab-Israeli conflict and effectively concealed from public awareness the fact that the U.S. government gives massive uncritical support to Israel.

Thanks to the suffocating influence of Israel`s U.S. lobby, open discussion of the Arab-Israeli conflict has been non-existent in our government all these years. I have firsthand knowledge, because I was a member of the House of Representatives Foreign Affairs Committee in June 1967 when Israeli military forces took control of the Golan Heights, a part of Syria, as well as the Palestinian West Bank and Gaza. I continued as a member for 16 years and to this day maintain a close watch on Congress.

For 35 years, not a word has been expressed in that committee or in either chamber of Congress that deserves to be called debate on Middle East policy. No restrictive or limiting amendments on aid to Israel have been offered for 20 years, and none of the few offered in previous years received more than a handful of votes. On Capitol Hill, criticism of Israel, even in private conversation, is all but forbidden, treated as downright unpatriotic, if not anti-Semitic. The continued absence of free speech was assured when those few who spoke out-Senators Adlai Stevenson and Charles Percy, and Reps. Paul ``Pete`` McCloskey, Cynthia McKinney, Earl Hilliard, and myself-were defeated at the polls by candidates heavily financed by pro-Israel forces.


click here: forthcoming book

---

And then the drooling-dogs, tails-a-wagging, entreat with the masters `` Oh please sir, does that enhance your pleasure screwing me``?

These are the westoxicted mutts, the hybrids, the mongrels, the pye-dogs from cantonements & colonies. The thoroughly educated ones.

The one who identified themselves as ``us`` as in: `` Are you with us or are you with them``. This shall always be remembered when Hurricane Hurry-up hits Pakistan and no closet will ever give sanctuary to the west-plagued ones. It happened in Iran. It will happen here.

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Let us put it this way:

We now have drugl runners and mafiaso turning to religious terrorism to build a reasonable opposition to the state`s anti organized crime response just as we have imperialism turning anti-terror efforts into the biggest imperialist expansionism.

Both are losers.

sri #75 One day you will realize (i hope) that you can never generalize about people. i have known many arabs who are perfectly fine, decent, very hardworking people, for example. for you to call them ``sand n**gers`` says nothing about them but a lot about you and your own insecurities.

echosqueeeek #72 your entire existence seems to be defined by ``not kowtowing to the west``. diagnosis: you have the same problem as sri (inferiority complex), but just a different manifestation.

Romair #74 interesting statistics. unfortunately most people rush to religion out of fear of death. when they find a cure for death (as will no doubt happen in a few decades, given where medical science is today), 99.99 percent of the believers will become atheists. only those who think about things like ``why are we here`` and so forth will remain religious.

_digit:
I beg to differ. There is a clear distinction between targetting innocents and unintended victims. Unintended does not mean unexpected, which is why the white man uses the term ``collateral damage`` to lessen his feeling of guilt. Now, if you can tell me that the Russians have been ``targetting`` innoncent Chechen children, you may have a point.

#67 by vertex

`` sri, tahmed,

Dudes, you took the words right out of my mouth.

We could also point out sarcastically that carpet bombing/shelling grozny from 10k feet with fuel-explosive weapons and causing the death of 10`s of thousands of Chechens (knowing full bloody well that there were scores of women and children in city) was also ``brave``.

Bunch of loosers on both sides there... ``

Well, considering the standard career choices of Chechen people, such as extortions, kidnappings and drug-running ( when left to their own governance after `95 / `96 ) one would have to wonder if anything ever positive or productive ever comes out of Chechens. It would be nice to see Validimir Putin ( the last great white hope ) quarantine all chechens in to chechnya and turn it in to a glass parking lot ( A high yield about 100 feet should do the work ). Later Russians can go in and make positive use of the Oil there.

#71 by tahmed32

``so get a bloody personality of your own.``

Sadly, when it comes to observing people, my capabilities are very limited. I can only look at their productivity. That leads me to conclude that Arabs are generally retards and thus, the title of ``Sand N***ers`` suits them well.

May be it`s my background. I am born in a backward class family in India. And I beat the odds to become a highly productive man myself.

dost, vertex


[It is this kind of attitude which is going to get that idiot Bush reelected! ]

What attitude? Vertex was condemning both sides. Not just one. His opinion is quite humane, if I may say so.

[While we must condemn bombings from 10k feet [btw, not too many of my Muslim friends on chowk joined me in condemning americans doing so in Serbia!]]

I was thinking of responding harshly to this, however I recall reports that the American bombing in fact worsened the whole Kosovar refugee crisis in the first place. So you may have a point...

Needless to say, “pinpoint” attacks on Serb positions in the hill side or around small villages is by no means equivalent to carpet bombing /shelling an entire city. Estimates have 80-100k Chechens killed. Excuse me, sir, but it is a poor comparison. Let’s leave out the fact that the Serbs were in the process of ethnic cleansing, whereas the Chechens posed no such immediate threat to anyone.

[there is no moral equivalence in the barbaric acts of individuals deliberately killing innocent children and the unavoidable killings of innocents by professional soldiers obeying the orders of their govt.]

This is weak, and a cop-out. They ARE moral siblings – a fact that is not at all reflected in the different reactions to both events. Are you telling me those soldiers had no inkling that women and children were dying as they were shelling a CITY?!?! I will also withhold comment on the ``professionalism`` of Russian soldiers. There is no justification either way. It worries me that you would sugar-coat, almost justify, one and (rightfully) condemn the other! The Russian invasion of Grozny was barbaric and near genocidal. Period. These terrorists who killed children are barbaric and evil. Period. It is EXACTLY this legitimization of the state-sponsored violence (which is inherently larger-scale terrorism by it’s very nature…nuts to your notion of “unavoidable” killings) that breeds terror, and solicits sympathy for terrorists. Not just among Muslims.

The universal promise of the terrorist is that if nothing is done, “they’ll get you next, and the world will turn a blind eye at best”. Having the world stand in solidarity with Russia after such a barbaric attack may seem righteous, however given their past sins and the rather anemic reaction, if not down right supportive, of Russia’s own barbarity (on a much grander scale) tends to make the terrorist promise seem mighty convincing.

[All such acts do is to convince Americans that there is indeed a war against terror and that Bush-Chenny are justified in killing barbarians who kill in the name of religion.]

You’re right. The timing stinks. However, I am unconvinced that the people who vote for Bush have the intellectual honesty to be “convinced” of anything. These flip-flop chanters are ideologically predisposed. I am convinced that a good number of Americans are convinced of the need for the war.

I understand your desire to remove the religious element from the conflict(s) because it fuels the agenda of the neo-cons. However, I am of the opinion that they have been successful and that a one-sided `clash of civilizations` is already underway. Whereas the rhetoric on the American side is laced with ideological references and a missionary attitude, no such counterpart exists among the Muslim masses.

The Pew Research Center did a worldwide survey on topics related to religions. Following are some of the results: http://www.religioustolerance.org/rel_impo.htm

1. The percentage of the public who considered religion important

Top five:

Senegal 97%
Indonesia 95%
Nigeria 92%
India 92%
Pakistan 91%

Bottom five:

Russia 14%
Bulgaria 13%
Japan 12%
France 11%
Czech Republic 11%

So % of adults for whom religion is important rates India fourth highest in the world and Pakistan fifth.

2. ``More American adults consider religion much more important than do the citizens of all other industrialized states. ``Americans’ views are closer to people in developing nations than to the publics of developed nations.``

3. ``The population of the U.S. and Canada share a similar culture. Yet they assign vastly different importance to religion -- almost a ratio of 2 to 1.``

........... it doesn`t matter whether you believe in the hadith or not ..... as long as you believe in an all powerful moon god who replaced all those other little gods who once shared space in the kaaba, you are in going to be a pain in the collective keister of mankind .......... not unlike those who believe that that their virile god descended from the heavens to impregnate a poor virgin, or those who believe their god caused instantaneous combustion and parted seas to let people cross over to the promised land .............and let us not even talk about gods with elephant proboscises who rode around on rodents .............as long as you believe in the rubbish that is doled out on scrolls and tablets and palm leaves, we are in deep doodoo ........... actually it doesn`t really matter what koranmaniacs, mohammed fans and other nonentities on the chowk think............... what is really scary is that there is an arab out there in a cave waiting for instructions from god while a texan in the white house is waiting for instructions from his son .......... this father-son act is killing us !

A great Muslim of today. One of those who doesn`t kow-tow to the Western-thugs. In fact delivers stinging blows to them.

The drooling dog(PM) of United-Satans did not attend the Shoora-Hamdard UMMAH conference. He suddenly found time to be busy.

Joke of a joke: Its been reported in `the News` The drooling dog of the United-Satans gave permission for this conference.

No wonder the baighairat is a fcking moderate.

[ always use this word with contempt & derision so as to express its true meaning]

---

Mahathir spells out reasons for Challenges to Ummah
Pakistan Times Staff Report

KARACHI: Malaysia`s ex-Prime Minister of Dr. Mahathir bin Mohamad has said the Muslim Ummah confronts challenges because it has strayed from the basic and true teachings of Islam.

``It is our fault and not the fault of our religion, it is for us to correct these faults,`` he remarked while delivering a keynote address at an international conference on ``Muslim Ummah in the Modern World: Challenges and Opportunities`` at a local hotel on Friday.

The three-day moot is being held under the auspices of the Shura Hamdard Pakistan and sponsored by Hamdard Foundation Pakistan.

The Challenges

Mahathir was of the view that the challenges facing the Muslim Ummah at this stage of modern civilization are too numerous to list. ``They will probably depress us because there are so many and so seemingly insoluble.``

They all have but one single origin. And that is in our confusion over the different interpretations of the one single Islamic religion that was brought by the Prophet Mohammad (Peace Be Upon Him), he added.

Mahathir pointed out that today we see the Sunnis and the Shias both vehemently maintaining that they are Muslims, but they fight and kill each other because each accuse the other of not being Muslims. Yet the world, the non-Muslims consider both sects as Muslims and do not differentiate between them, condemning both for being guilty of terrorism.

He said ``we know that our religion tells us that it is a sin for a Muslim to kill another Muslim but we justify our action by claiming that the person or people we kill are not Muslim, not true Muslims according to our own interpretations.``

``We pass judgement on their faith even though they bear witness to the oneness of Allah and to The Holy Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him).``

Injunctions of Islam

``In the meantime we neglect the other injunctions of Islam. No religion has stressed the need to acquire knowledge as Islam does. The first message of Allah to Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) was `Iqra`,`` the former Malaysian premier added.

He said that the early Muslims were learned not just about religion but about other fields of knowledge as well.

They did not question where the knowledge came from, whether it was from heathens or Christians of Jewish sources. They did not question the nationality of the scholars who pioneered the studies. They learnt the languages of these scholars, acquired the knowledge, translated them into Arabic, researched and added to the body of knowledge that they had acquired.

Mahatir pointed out that the Muslims were strong in their defence capabilities. And this too is in accordance with the teachings of the Holy Quran that Muslims must be capable of defending themselves and instilling fear in the enemy. But later came the new interpretations of Islam who condemned learning and acquisition of knowledge other than those about the religion.

The former Malaysian Premier said that Islam is a way of life, and politics, social affairs and economic affairs cannot be separated from religious affairs. The separation of state from religion is not possible in Islam. The state must obey the injunctions of the religion but not necessarily ruled only by those well-versed in religion.

Furthermore, it is not the form of government that is important but rather than the Muslim government should be led by competent administrators, should be strong, should be just, should have the capability to cope with the changing times.

There is nothing to say that Muslim societies and Muslim countries should recreate the life and the environment that existed at the time of Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) before it can be considered as Islamic or before it can survive or prosper. Islam is for all times.

Of the Deviations

Dr. Mahathir said that because of the deviations from the teachings of Islam, because of the differing interpretations and confusion they cause the Muslims have become backward, weak and unable to deal with the multitude of challenges, they now face. Muslims are being oppressed and massacred by their enemies and even more by fellow Muslims.

He said that the true challenge facing the Muslim Ummah in the modern world is to speak the truth, to admit that they have strayed from the original and fundamental teachings of Islam.

A Powerful Force

The former premier said that the religion is a powerful force in Islam and many want to avail themselves of this force for their own ends. ``But despite this we must not weaken the influence of religion on the way of life that we life lead.

Instead we must use this powerful force. But we must use it according to those basic teachings of Islam over which we do not differ.``

He stated that it cannot be that Islam is the cause of our failures and misfortunes. ``It must be because we have deviated from true teachings of Islam.``

Earthly Ambitions

Dr. Mahathir said ``surely if we discard the earthly ambitions of our sects and our sectarian leaders and reunite as Muslims, if we go back to the fundamental teaching of Islam as preached by the Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him) as found in Hold Quran and the verified Hadiths, and we practice these teachings,surely if we acquire all the knowledge there is in this world, whatever may be the source, we hone our skills to Islamic moral values in the applications of these knowledge to strengthen ourselves, to build the capacity to defend the Ummah and our religion, we develop our countries with the wealth that Allah has showered on us, we practise charity not only towards the Muslims but also the non-Muslims, we govern and rule ourselves and our people with justice foremost in our minds as enjoined by Islam.

``Surely if we set aside the esoteric interpretations which divide us then we must be able to overcome most of the challenges facing us in this modern world,`` Mahathir added.

He said ``we shall all be well-equipped with the knowledge and the skills to administer and develop our countries, to strengthen them with the defence capability that we are enjoined by our religion to have and to dedicate ourselves to the service of Islam and the Ummah. We should find common grounds between our different sects and disregard or tolerate the differences so that we could be united again and strong.``

Ms Sadia Rashid

Earlier, the President of Hamdard Foundation Pakistan Ms. Sadia Rashid presented the welcome address. Maj. Gen. (Retd) Ghulam Umar spoke about the aims and objectives of the conference.●

---

while at it visiting this great instituition (site) & the honest, courageous and dedicated muslims running it.

www.hamdard.edu.pak

sattar #65 So THAT`s what you meant. So sorry for the misunderstanding.

Yes, indeed, I believe the prophet Muhammed was honest in what he said and was not making it up. And my belief is based on the fact that the Quran clearly limits Muhammed`s role in society to that of being a ``warner``. If he was a self-serving man, this would not be the case.

Also, I ``fell`` for his message, because the message (as conveyed in the Quran, NOT as conveyed by mullahs and pirs and hadith writers and other quacks) makes good sense, teaches respect for life (unlike the bloodthirsty devils who kill in the name of what they call ``islam``) and other positive things (honesty, for example) that are ignored by the ritual mongerers.

sri #66 while i share your disgust with the brutal attack on schoolchildren by the terrorists, i also am disgusted with your high and mighty racial slurs about arabs. it is so obvious that you are simply trying to mimic what you think is the way westerners speak - when in fact most westerners (other than the illiterate losers who would have similar slurs for desis) dont use such racist language. so get a bloody personality of your own.

vertex:
``We could also point out sarcastically that carpet bombing/shelling grozny from 10k feet with fuel-explosive weapons and causing the death of 10`s of thousands of Chechens (knowing full bloody well that there were scores of women and children in city) was also ``brave``.``

It is this kind of attitude which is going to get that idiot Bush reelected!
While we must condemn bombings from 10k feet [btw, not too many of my muslim friends on chowk joined me in condemning americans doing so in Serbia!] there is no moral equivalence in the barbaric acts of individuals deliberately killing innocent children and the unavoidable killings of innocents by professional soldiers obeying the orders of their govt.

All such acts do is to convince Americans that there is indeed a war against terror and that Bush-Chenny are justified in killing barbarians who kill in the name of religion.

rsridhar,

LOL, so hindus didn`t have the gumption to stand up and simply ask for what every other people do...celebrate religious holidays. Is this something to be proud of? You should be ashamed....not all take pleasure or pride in being obsequious...;-)

``Islam is a politico-religious entity. Politics and religion have freely intermingled. Mullahs, by collusion with the rulers, have gained power and stature over the centuries.``

Incorrect. All temporal power resided with sultans, kings, etc. Religous ``mullahs`` served the role as judges and intellectual policy advisors (to put it familiar and perhaps generous terms). Mullahs do not represent a priestly class. This is a rather laugable and ignorant analogy people tend to make. They were from the liety, and educated for the role. Never mind what you think of the education...it`s their role that I`m talking about.


``This is why Clergy is so powerful in the Islamic world. The dictator and the clergy have kind of a symbiotic relationship. It is a ``you scratch my back and i will scratch yours`` kind of philosophy. ``

The clergy has NO power in the Islamic world, except the domain of family law. Religious leaders are usually vetted by the leaders, and so represent the government line quite closely.

The BJP (being religous Hindu`s) had infinitely more power than any Mullah had....other than Iran perhaps.

Re tahmed (#20, 23):

… looks like your moral anxieties are closing in on you once again … or perhaps you simply need a Prozac refill to calm you down.

You ask me … “Would you care to cut and paste my response based on which you make this claim that I fell for your cleverness…”

You misread my comment (sigh). My comment stated that you fell for Muhammad’s claims [which is different from you falling for my cleverness]. Re-read my post to Malik99. Got it, Mr. smarty pants?

Try to keep things in proper context, without jumping to immature conclusions.

#63 by tahmed32

``sri: this was truly a criminal act - attacking schoolchildren. and 10 of them were arabs who were obviously there to create trouble only, just as they did in afghanistan. ``

typical sand N***ers.

sri, tahmed,

Dudes, you took the words right out of my mouth.

We could also point out sarcastically that carpet bombing/shelling grozny from 10k feet with fuel-explosive weapons and causing the death of 10`s of thousands of Chechens (knowing full bloody well that there were scores of women and children in city) was also ``brave``.

Bunch of loosers on both sides there...

Jaahil ko ugar jehl kaa , inaa`am diyaa jaaey
iss hadsaa-e vaqt ko--kya naam diyaa jaaey ?
maikhanoaN kee tauheen hai, rindoaN kee htak hai
kum zrf kay haathoaN meiN ugar jaam diya jaaey.

``hUmm aisay saada diloaN kee niazmandee sey
butoaN ney kee haiN, jahaN meiN khudaeeyaaN kya kya``

The simple-folk that we are, respectful & polite
has led many stoneheads behave like gods.

sri: this was truly a criminal act - attacking schoolchildren. and 10 of them were arabs who were obviously there to create trouble only, just as they did in afghanistan.

Yet another great example of Muslim bravery.

Attack the nearest school filled with children and infants..... take them at gun point ... ..


Brave indeed....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5881958/?GT1=5100

I have heard a lot of people complain about hadeeth.
I have yet to hear a systematic and coherent proposal on how to interpret hadeeth.
I don`t have one either.

#53 by aslam644

Yes - I forgot. Iranians are showing the way. After years under ``Islamic Revolution`` they have started to reject the priests and the dogma. A silent reformation has started.

So yes - muslims do have a shining example to follow. Hopefully the changes in Iran will be noticed and replicated over the entire muslims world.

sridhar
//...Unfortunately, Mullahs have chosen to interpret the verses literally and not symbolically...//

Yes - but like I said, that is their ``job``. Mullahs will always do that - that`s how they retain their livelihood and power. So do priests of other religions. Have you ever visited Jaganath Temple in Puri? Pandas in that temple are worst life forms in the entire god`s creation. In fact they are worse than any islamic mullah could ever be. But they donot matter - because people reject them ... politically, theologically, and socially. They have been reduced to more of ritual hangover and rightly so.

So is the case with the Pope. Pope says - no sex before marriage, don`t use condoms, earth is flat. People say - ``yeah sure. whatever you say pope. where is your ring - let me kiss it. goodbye. sell your snake oil somewhere else``.

That`s what muslims would have to. Reject mullahs, reject theocracy, reject political islam, reject koran as the book of political wisdom, stop being slaves to the book. The book is mortal, the book is changeable, just like everything else in the world. Nothing in this world can be static - that`s a simple law of nature.

In a very small way - iranians have started to do this. They have started to rejct mullahs and their dogma.

Jibbe
``Let us also be consistent, if the American invasion was wrong, so was Saddam`s invasion of kuwait. If the killing of Iraqis by Americans was wrong, so was the massacre of the Kurds.
I am sick and tired of Muslims always crying wolf, ``wolf wolf wolf`` shut up. what comes around goes around. ``

Should we include in your ``shut up and put up`` list.

9/11

I am tired of this psuedo elitist crap!

dost-mittar #50

``I think my life would have been far more unstable, and I would have been far less grounded, had I not had something like Islam to lean on.``

This is generally true of all people with strong faith. Also, most people are quite comfortable in their religious identities and usually go through the rituals even when they dont believe in them>

But Romair probably does believe in them. That`s what he is trying to tell you. If Quran talks about flying horses, Romair fully believes in the existence of those horses. Or, at least, he will be willing to tell you that those flying horses are really flying photons, and that the mention of flying horses proves beyond a shadow of doubt the scientific authenticity of the `Holy` Quran.

Such beliefs are, what he says with justification, make Islam different. So different are these beliefs from the beliefs of human beings that, according to him, we mustn`t expect Muslims to think like us.

Who would disagree with him when Romair`s own postings provide ample proof?

re:#31 by ballukhan
Sorry for the belated post.
Agree with u entirely.
Sorry again if my posts sound too critical. At best, what i say may be considered a non-muslim`s viewpoint.
I interacted with a lot of muslims during my work place in New York where i did my Residency many years ago. Most were from Pakistan, Bangladesh, some from Turkey, Iran. I even met a lady from Iraq.
My best friend was from Pakistan. Some things stood out during conversations with him:
1. He often referred to the fact that muslims are losing out in this rat race and that Islam was somehow in danger. He did not elaborate how. But it was fascinating that he did not say Pakistan is losing out. He said: muslims are losing out. Again, this concept of Ummah is in the subconscious mind of every muslim.

2. He often blamed the West for all its ills. There was so much hatred mingled with envy and fascination for the Western lifestyle. It was difficult to decide which emotion predominated.
All this was before 9/11.
There was a very devout muslim lady doctor who would take time off work for her prayers. Muslims in the program demanded and got a day off during Ramadan. NO hindu ever asked for a religious holiday.
All this tells the story of a religion, a potent one, trying to adjust to modern times. If doctors found it difficult, what of the common man?
Just my thoughts.
Sridhar

#47 by Jibbe on September 2, 2004 10:24pm PT

Good work! You have the right aggression and passion to work on the important issues that have been raised by you. Looking forward to your next article.

41
(Where are the ``attempts`` to reform? In fact, seems like muslims are getting more regressive)

Iranian Young men and women are having time of their lives (sex that is) with official approval,
Recently their parliament passed bill giving women equality in inheritance and other matters.

I am surprised no one asked why Christianity has done wonders for west
regards aslam

Gibran,
it hurts, yes sure...as it did in your case. But i never thought that you will stepdown at lowest level, and start calling names.
ok again...initially when I looked at the article, I thought that you are advocating some reform, but after thoroughly reading , i came to conclusion that you are misleading others (and i wrote that in my response). And this was the thing that hurt most...look, even in gravest situations in debates (or what ever else) one should be patient and keep his/her character. calling names is a last thing, that is allowed in my dictionary for keeping contact with somebody. (these things are supposed to be taught in childhood).
i will not waste my time with a person who is on one side advicating to be a reformer of islamic society and quotes Quran and hadeeth and on the other side is so mean of character. i strongly recommend to other serious readers to avoid reading religous artciles by Mr Gibran in future.
also to owners of the site, let those people who use loose language, not write on religous topics.
--thanks

re:#36 by mohar11
What u say about Islam is tragic but true.
But a lot also depends of how u interpret the verses.
Qoran says: chop of the hand of a thief. You may interpret this in the literal sense or simply say that Qoran is telling its followers to punish a thief severely. Unfortunately, Mullahs have chosen to interpret the verses literally and not symbolically.
Consider the following verse from Bhagwat Geetha:
Sri Krishna says to Arjuna (before the Epic battle):
``Mritva va prapyasi swargam, jitva va prapyase maheem
Tasmat uthishta Bharata, yuddhaya kritanischayaha``
(If u die, u will attain the Heaven. If u win, u will enjoy the fruits of your victory. So, get ready for the Battle).
Nobody, i mean nobody well versed in scriptures has ever interpreted the above verse to mean that the Hindu religion justifies violence. Clearly, Arjuna here is being advised to do his duty without thinking of the consequences. If his duty is to go to war, then it must be done. But that does not automatically justify war just because SriKrishna has said so.

I am always fascinated by this simple, elegant religion of Islam, which says that in order to worship u just need to face towards Mecca and pray. You can`t get simpler than that.

What is it then that has made this belief system tremendously popular and problematic at the same time?
Its appeal lies in its simplicity and brotherhood among fellow worshippers. I have always found that there is a comaraderie among muslims that is lacking say among hindus from different regions/religons. Caste divides the hindu religion as nothing does.
And yet, hinduism has kept its message intact among its followers for many thousand years. This happened through reinterpretation of Vedas (Vedantas, Puranas, Itihaasas: Ramayan, Mahabharat, various commentaries by spiritual leaders to the present day). We can trash the Vedas today but we know that the same message is to be found in Itihaasas in a way common man can understand. A kind of spiritual freemarket exists in India. Nobody can just assume the role of a Pope here because people do not expect this of a great spiritual leader. Our spiritual giants (Sri Aurobindo, Ramana Maharishi etc) have lived a life of seclusion and quiet contemplation.
Islam is a politico-religious entity. Politics and religion have freely intermingled. Mullahs, by collusion with the rulers, have gained power and stature over the centuries. Common man, due to this concept of Ummah, has not objected to this but actually felt happy (why else would Pakistan deem Arabic rulers like Ghazni as heroes and name their missiles after them?). This is why Clergy is so powerful in the Islamic world. The dictator and the clergy have kind of a symbiotic relationship. It is a ``you scratch my back and i will scratch yours`` kind of philosophy.
Greatest drawback in Islam is that the Prophet Mohammed foreclosed options of any new reinterpretation of the Qoran by deeming himself to be the last Prophet. Even if a true Prophet comes and wants to reinterpret Qoran with a view of putting everything in the modern context, he will not be allowed to do so. Nay, he may not even be recognised as a Prophet and may be deemed a heretic and may face a death penalty at the hands of the Clergy.
That is why, Islam seems to have stagnated. Like a 13th century plot that has been rehashed many times but has no takers today, Islamists find that their religion has not kept pace with modernity but are not even willing to concede that.
Sridhar

re:#37 by fatbrain
We are discussing Islam. I though u might be interested in knowing why a lot of non-muslims do not know why there is so much anger in the Islamic world and are trying to speculate or rationalize the cause.
It is time muslims started having some introspection. That article was by a muslim. I am glad some people have started the process.
Sridhar

HP, digit:
I have been critical of the Iraqi invasion long before others joined the parade. So, I understand your feelings on this matter. But why can`t it be treated as a colonialist/imperialist/megalomaniac thing? Why does it have to be made a muslim affair, especially since Saddam isn`t much of a muslim? One can sympathise with Iraqi nationalists and resistant fighters, as long as they direct their attention at their aggressors and do not kill in the name of islam and islamic organisations.
I maintain that what is happening is not a clash of civilisations -not yet, anyway! At best, this is a clash of fundamentalisms, as Tariq Ali puts it. But if the muslims of the world continue to sympathise with terrorists from Chechnya to the Phillipines in the name of ummah while remaining silent about human rights abuses in places like Darfour, there is a real risk of this becoming a civilisational clash.


Romair:
``I think my life would have been far more unstable, and I would have been far less grounded, had I not had something like Islam to lean on.``

This is generally true of all people with strong faith. Also, most people are quite comfortable in their religious identities and usually go through the rituals even when they dont believe in them.

the MURDER of 12 nepalese workers cannot be justified by occupation or not. I agree a 100% with NASHA, lets leave all this Quran and Hadeeth aside for a second - what is wrong is wrong, lets not make excuses to justify MURDER.
Let us also be consistent, if the American invasion was wrong, so was Saddam`s invasion of kuwait. If the killing of Iraqis by Americans was wrong, so was the massacre of the Kurds.
I am sick and tired of Muslims always crying wolf, ``wolf wolf wolf`` shut up. what comes around goes around.
This cycle is non ending, we blame them, they blame us....it is never ending. Let us correct the WRONGS (and they are countles) - in our own societies.
What do most Muslim columnists write about - america
what do most Pakistanis discuss at homes - america and the `evils of Musharraf`

is anyone else tired of this nonsense?

asadm:

if you wish to debate something, please use rational arguments, anyone can copy and paste from google....do some studying and come up with something a little better.
the article you have copied and posted is good ... however, each and every point you have decided to raise has been countered in the article... if you have something specific please do get back to me.
- if you think i have taken the quran out of context - then you have the verses and chapters above - have a look and let me know.

- the article you have copied and posted discuss the sunnah and hadeeth - i have countered that in my article (sunnah vs hadeeth) - in it you will find details as to the differences.

- the article you have copied and pasted also reiterates the fact that these hadeeth were oral tradition for over 300 years - i have offered a rational analysis as to just how reliable oral transmission is and the problems that were faced in the Muslim community.

- the reason Bukhari and Muslim and other scholars decided to write books about hadeeth was precisely because there were so many forgeries (over 2 million hadeeth were floating around) I have written how and why.

-as for Quran, if you seriously think that it wasnt written during the time of the prophet then you have been smoking something really good - where can i get some?

http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran/quran_textual-reply.html
my friend, this is a website which counters claims made by many Christians as to the Quran and Islam....it is one of the most respected websites by Muslims, and this article shows how the Quran was compiled. It is not propoganda - read it and let me know what you think.

For all those others out there who want to backlash at the article because they dont like what Im saying - that is your own problem. its a free website!! but i challenge anyone to debate - please do not waste all our time with nonsense, come up with something good. Can someone teach this cowboy Asadm how to debate something? its absolutely pathetic how he keeps trying....dont try with your gut reaction - try with your brain!! if your brain cannot come up with something good either shut up or do some research to try to counter my points. (sigh)

Jibbe

[To a non-muslim it makes no difference whether the killer was a quranic fundamentalist or a hadithi one.]

Right, all they know is that 19 people were dead, and that somehow justifies this. Or indeed, even if they deplore the violence on all sides, somehow there is an equivalence.

[Why cant people just accept from the Quran and Hadith whatever is humane and compassionate and ignore the rest?]

Rest of what? What rest? The ``us or them`` rest? Ignore the rest that everyone else holds as their solemn and sacred right to ``defend`` their ``way of life``? Did you not just watch the republican convention? I would normally agree with you, however now is exactly not the time to think this way. We are the ``them``, and we have been declared a threat to the ``us``. Sorry, but we have no choice right about now. The last thing we Muslims need is an After-school special lecture because these poor 19 Nepalese made a very poor career choice and paid dearly for it. If some non Muslims are ignorant about the psyche of an invaded people, then so be it. I for one don`t think it`s very difficult to comprehend.

FAT ASS SAYS (SORRY I MEAN FAT BRAIN) :
``This is my first post on this site, though i have been reading on site for last 2 months.
coming to this article, Mr Gibran: let me tell you that motivers only succeed, when accomplished with right purpose. I can bet that either you have deliberately tried to mislead others, or you have been confused by someone else.
anyway, i will even ask some questions from you regarding article:
1- from where you have taken the figure 600,000 ?
2- the comparison of remembring things(shuttle mishap) and (the narrators of hadith) is a wrong analogy. ask me why ? i will tell you
3- your example of hijab, is also wrong quoted. You can find direct references in Quran.(a lot of artciles already on this topic)
4- you have failed to cite some clear examples that show contradiction of quran & hadith.``

So Fat-ASS, thinks that I have deliberately tried to manipulate Quran and Hadeeth - JUST BECAUSE HE DOSNET AGREE WITH ME....okay lets debate:
1. The figure of 600,000 is admittedly not the only number out there, there are people who say 700,000, there are people who say 400,000. Here is a website that can confirm this figure - it is an extremely ISLAMIC WEBSITE, so if you have a problem with the figure, please take it up with them. IF YOU GO TO GOOGLE, TYPE BUKHARI 600,000 - YOU WILL SEE ABOUT 300 WEBSITES POP UP, ALL ISLAMIC BASED IN THE MIDDLE EAST, THIS IS THE MOST OFT QUOTED NUMBER...BUT AGAIN WE CANNOT BE 100% SURE - JUST LIKE THE HADEETH!!
http://www.islamonline.net/askaboutislam/display.asp?hquestionID=2828
``The number of hadith in Sahih al-Bukhari is around 9,082. But without repetition this number reduces to around 2,602. This is from a total of around the some of 600,000 traditions that the Imam collected. [All the above material is from Prof. Azmi’s books.] Imam Bukhari mentions that he learnt from over 1000 sheikhs and some scholars have put the number above 1000 as 80. Every person Imam Bukhari heard a hadith from was his sheikh or teacher. ``

2. I dont have time for your asking or not, if you want to explain something....pls feel free to do so and enlighten the rest of us.

3. My friend, believe me you do not want to get into hijab and niqab

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my next essay soon to be published on chowk will go in detail on that.....- BUT I WILL PLAY YOUR GAME, BRING FORTH YOUR PROOF FROM QURAN, PLEASE DO NOT JUST OPEN A QURAN OF YUSAF ALI AND COPY WHAT YOU HAVE READ...DO SOME RESEARCH.. MY EMAIL ADD IS BELOW THE ARTICLE - OR WE CAN DO IT ON THE POSTS...

4. I have shown two examples of contraditctions...maybe if you read more carefully, instead of jumping through the article and saying OH NO, THIS IS NOT WHAT MY MOMMY TAUGHT ME...THEREFORE ITS GOT TO BE WRONG.
Ill give you 4 e.g.
Stoning to death of adulterers - NOT IN QURAN - BUT IN HADEETH
Dogs said to keep angels away - NOT IN QURAN - BUT IN HADEETH
Killing a man for leaving Islam - NOT IN QURAN - BUT IN HADEETH
Banning silk and gold for men - NOT IN QURAN - BUT IN HADEETH.
Hijab and Niqab - NOT IN QURAN - BUT IN HADEETH

But you are missing the point : its not only these EXTRA laws which belong in another century - but its the whole consequences :
1. subjugation of women
2. splitting islam intos sects
3. the image of Islam
4. making Muslims into robots
5. hadeeths have been cited for extremism, conservatism

The list goes on.

MY FRIENDS - thanks for positive responses. My goal here is not to damage anyone`s faith...on the contrary I am rallying behind the Quran and questioning the hadeeth with rational arguments. I AM NOT A SCHOLAR...AND I DONT NEED TO BE ONE (NEITHER DOES ANYONE ELSE), LETS STOP RELYING ON THESE MULLAHS AND DO SOME STUDYING FOR OURSELVES. These issues are always difficult and can cause serious damage between even the closest friends...but lets tackle it, instead of staying shut up and listening to things like robots.
But some of you just cant accept it - dont, but if you want to debate then raise your points and we will discuss it. However, do not accuse me of being malicious....that is your own insecurity. Absolutely pathetic - anyone agree?

Jibbe

The problem in my view is not the Quran or Hadees but the sectarian taaghooti mullah and his `deen-e-fassad` which he parades and sells as Islam. People know little about Quran and Hadees. It is evident from the historic case of Illam Din, a 17 year old `tarkhaan`, who had killed a Hindu Raj Paal for publishing certain Ahadees which were considered blasphemous by the mullah. He was sentenced to death although he had denied having committed the crime. His appeal in the High Court was pleaded by no less a lawyer than the Quaide Aazam himself. The Quaid took the plea of provocation being the cause of murder. But the court did not accept the plea and held that Raj Pl had published nothing but the authentic Ahadees concerning a particular aspect of the life of the Prophet .