We Don’t Need You Shaukat Aziz

ikonoclast

I wonder how you call SA intelligent. I don`t know him personally but as seen on the tv he seems to be highly self-conscious and affectatious person with ,so to say, a rod in his neck. He seems to be a production of a military farm made to order, saying nothing but to further his personal interest which is the secret of his success as a professional and a lackey. Did you see him smiling when Shujaat was signing his resignation on the tv? No intelligent man can do that. Did not you see him bowing before the `Black Stone`? No intelligent man can do that and let it be splashed on the tv without some qualm of conscience.

Itz nice to read so much vibrant and disparate comment!
I just want to reiterate / clarify a few salient points I made in the article.

1. Shaukat Aziz as an individual is not a bad person at all. He is intelligent, articulate and a professional. Period. My objection is SA`s prostituting his awesome talents to an illegitimate regime. Why is SA letting himself be exploited? I object his getting into the PM`s House thru a backdoor, by subverting the rules and getting elected thru a farcical and a blatantly rigged elections.
2. By joining a usurper-military regime, SA has become part of it. He is now equally culpable and contaminated.
3. It is not that every Pakistani sitting in the US, as some members here have alluded to, are unpatriotic, but the fact remains that SA did carry out the inspection of Kahuta on the behest of the Americans; and if this is not serving the American interests, than what is it?
4.Some people here have very vociforeously, but nevertheless subjectively argued that SA be given a chance. My point is simple: the very fact, that the whole poliical dispensation is skewered to serve Mush`s interests, whatever SA will do, will only serve Mush`s purpose. Any benefit to the people would be incidental.
5. SA wont be serving democracy, like Jamali and Shujaat, SA is a creature of Mush, to do his bidding and of course to watch over Uncle Sam`s interests. SA is also Uncle Sam`s insurance to have a continuity, when it decides to ditch Mush. Of course am not implying that the power-prepondrance would shift from the military to the civilians.
6. SA has become of the same ilk, as of Karzai and Allawi.
7. The basic contention in my article has been proved 2 days back, from speaking ``his master`s voice``, SA enunciated that Mush would be keeping the uniform in view of the compulsions of the national interests. And that if necessary, an act of the ``parliment`` would be enacted to do the needful. What more prove one needs to see the true role and face of SA.

I wouldnt redit the MMA with that much bbabu....but if that is the case, they are real losers. Anyhow, it is frightening that they might be able to come into power if a legit democracy was in place...and once in, only god knows what would happen to pakistan. Its about time we banned religion from the state...show some common sense.

nukecular #102

`` Assasin...I think if he sheds his uniform, he`s in trouble...cause his main source of power is the army. He will probably hang on to it...but can`t understand the clamour from the MMA...the only reason they are around is because of Musharraf. If Musharraf goes, so do they?! ``

May be it is for the public consumption for MMA supporters. They need to pretend that they are ``an opposition party``. They will lose credibility with their constituents if they support Musharraf especially when he is publicly supposed to be helping the USA.

This is without doubt the best and most balanced article I have read on chowk. Excellent work and I cant wait to read your next article.

Rgds

Gibran Bham

Stone-worshipping? Are not both Hidus and Muslims who worship the black stone, the same nation , the one calling it `Shiv Ling` and the other `Hajre Aswad`? Should they not be called the nations of the `Black Stone`? Interestingly, one tradition says that the black stone worshipped by the Muslims reached Mecca through India (Ceylone, to be exact, which was then part of India as Pakistan was once) on its way from heaven.

The terms ``stone-worshipping``, ``cow piss drinking`` etc. are the last resort of a frustrated Paki. Arjun seems to have beaten up the nuke guy big time for him to come up with the usual Paki gems.

101

hahaha..

seems arjun pressed all the raw nerves of nukecular at the same time!! o my god! this person must have been harassed big time at some airport.

arjun.. yeh tume accha nahin kiya.( cow pee be upon you)...ROTFL!

Ive had enough, SRI arjun jee!

hindi boy...your sorry indian ass would be interogated the same way on an airport like any other south asian / middle eastern person...infact, probably worse if you were sikh...sounds like you have nothing better to do than sit around reading pakistani newspapers and searching for anti-pakistani propaganda...you sad sad `little` (probably also short) indian man...

India...the worlds biggest democracy? Hah! Cant even face that the Kashmiris dont want to be part of your country...sort out your own issues before you start having ago at Pakistan or muslims...kashmir is and always will be muslim...and regardless, pakistan will always be behind their just freedom struggle against an oppressive hindu (not secular) state...

Just because you dont give a shi*t about your own religion, cause you are a bunch of cow p*ss drinking ram jee worshippers, doesnt mean you can have a go at Islam. If you didnt feel so insecure, you wouldnt be worried about the muslims in your country taking over the country...as for all your economic progress arguments, outsourcing? wanna work in a cheap a*s call centre at 3 in the morning...yes, please...Im indian...get a life...economic progress because the indian market was flooded by western companies marketing their products? how is that an achievement for the indians? you`re still a bunch of stone worshipping p*ss drinkers.

shove that up your mumbaikar/delhi/agra/gujrati etc arse.

Pakistan Paindabad!

Assasin...I think if he sheds his uniform, he`s in trouble...cause his main source of power is the army. He will probably hang on to it...but can`t understand the clamour from the MMA...the only reason they are around is because of Musharraf. If Musharraf goes, so do they?!

Dont you think the political scene in Pakistan is getting nasty? It doesnt look like any of the parties could do any good to the country if they got absolute power (i.e. if Musharraf went).

Keep your indian views to yourself arjun - no one wants to hear them.

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Okay, lets not further enter into horrendous quagmire but for all my fellow chowkies, let us concentrate on debating the President`s uniform. If he does not shed it, I think Musharraf will lose an opportunity to go into the books of history as a truthful and competent military ruler ....

Arjun,
You seem to be in some sort of denial on Kashmir. Just because India is militarily powerful today does not mean it can keep Kashmir forever. Ultimately the will of the people of Kashmir will prevail. The real reason that India does not want to ask THE QUESTION from kashmiris is that you already know what their answer will be and it wont be for living with India.

Are you ashamed that India supported, armed and funded the Mukti Bahini? We dont need to apologise for supporting a just struggle.

I wonder what India is doing in Kashmere by providing only soft targets to the jiahdies and allowing anti-Indian propaganda by Gilani, etc. I think they are not serious either in stopping this blood letting in Kashmir or do not have the guts to do what Pak army is ding in Wana. On one hand they try to keep up the facade of democracy and then deny its operation in Kashmir. I think only Amanullah khan and Asghar Khan are sincere in ending this blood letting by advocating independence of Kashmir as independence of Bengalies with the creation of Bangladesh solved their problem of subjugation by West Pakistan. Repeating the oft-repeated arguments for the past 57 years are of no avail now as niether Kashmir is not that Kashmir nor Pakistan that Pakistan as these were 57 years ago.

85 by godot

Have you seen SA bowing before the blackstone and then offering `nimaze istisqa` praying for rain to fall in Pakistan in Saudi Arabia, a country where rain seldom falls. All this shown on TV just to befool the people. What was the result of his show. A few clouds present on the sky of Pakistan also disappeared.

My dear a good banker cannot necessarily be a good pm. How can a man at war with Allah, a master of `soodkhori`, filling the coffers of his masters by skinning the people can have the qualities of a pm. He is bragging all the time about 10 billion dollers, but does not the people are crying `aata, aata`. He is the blood sucker of the first water, seems like production of a military farm.

I laughed out loud when i read your post...funny stuff...

``Musharraf today told a gathering of army officers in the southwestern city of Quetta that Pakistan would not ``give up Kashmir,`` the state-run Associated Press of Pakistan reported.

``We have fought wars over it. Pakistan will have to ensure the interest of the Kashmiris,`` the agency quoted him as saying. ``I will meet Manmohan Singh and tell him in unequivocal terms about out stand on the issue. We will not give up Kashmir.``

Dear Lad Musharraf -- -- give back government to the Civilians -- retire -- and come home to New Delhi -- Kashmir is all yours....

Arjun - I think you proved my point.

I acknowledged that there are militant camps in Pakistan,

I wrote:

`That a part of Pakistan has become a training ground for Islamic extremists is undeniable. India can rightfully claim that many Kashmiri freedom fighters have learnt their skills in Pakistan, before fighting the Indian army and killing innocent civilians in Kashmir.`

The times article said that these organisations were influential and had bases all over Pak, especially in NWFP. I wrote:

`The religious organisations have a tremendous influence on Pakistani society. Despite being in such a minority, they are a violent and unsophisticated lot (now pretty much all over Pakistan in small pockets, with a large population in the NWFP and Baluchistan).`

I also acknowledged that the militants were allowed to cross over the LoC (by the military) as the government could not afford to contain the backlash that would occur if it tried to stop them. I wrote:

`So what incentive does the government have to close the camps down (or to try to stop Jehadis from crossing the border into Indian Kashmir)...The army generals are passionate about Kashmir, and as you have probably seen over the last five years, are answerable to no civilian. `

As per their funding, the times article clearly stated that these people do their own dirty work by collecting money on streets and from a few wealthy individuals. The government does not finance them. I wrote:

`These camps are self financing...But, as I said earlier, the government itself is probably not involved in funding these organisations. They are most likely privately run and operated in secrecy in areas such as Baluchistan and the NWFP.`

I hope you`re getting an idea of my point about the `people and government being held hostage by these organisations`.

You wrote:

`This isn`t about opinion...This is about a different worldview...Pakistanis still refuse to believe the jihadis are fully backed by their government, despite the overwheling evidence....of course, that wouldn`t be new..`

I think I answered this in my previous post:

`The Pakistani government is not equipped to deal with an uprising that should result if it `reversed` its policy on Kashmir...Unless the government wishes to risk a full scale bloody conflict with them, trying to crack down on their training camps is strictly unadvisable...Infact, given such a move would only serve to alienate the people of Pakistan and cause an uprising in the country, this option is clearly very unattractive.``

Finally, you wrote:

`Hard to have a rational discussion with people in denial...just as there is no point in the US trying to win the hearts and minds of people who think 4000 jews were missing from the wtc on 9/11... `

Just to let you know, I dont believe in conspiracy theories. And please, stop categorising all Pakistanis as being the same. It`s downright insulting!

So, you see, Arjun, we dont really disagree with anything afterall! I pretty much agree with everything you said. If you, and the Indian government, were to understand the depth of the problem, you might realise how difficult addressing it is for the Pakistani government.

I`ll close with something I wrote in my previous post:

`Its worth noting that the only reason for the current operations in Waziristan and Baluchistan is the American pressure to hand over any `terrorists`. Were that pressure not there, the government wouldnt raise a finger.

If India wants to address the Kashmir issue it must engage with the Pakistani government, which is its only conduit to the extremist groups (without going to war with Pakistan itself). It will have to start thinking like the Americans i.e. make Pakistan fight its war for it. As it stands currently, the Pakistani government gains nothing from trying to close down Kashmiri camps (or stop cross border infiltration).`

Id be interested to read your thoughts on my reply.

Rgds

BAGRAM, Afghanistan - The trail has gone cold in the hunt for suspected Sept. 11 mastermind Osama bin Laden three years after the audacious attacks, but the al-Qaida chief and his No. 2 are still orchestrating strikes like the recent suicide car bombing of a U.S. security firm in Kabul, a top American commander said Saturday.

Osama may be dead, says Sheikh Rashid, Musharraf`s Minister for (Dis)-Information...

``Pakistan`s answer to John Maynard Keynes, Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz, has come up with a constitutional first: boldly saying that in a parliamentary democracy, ``...the holding of office of the president by the army chief,`` I quote from a newspaper report, ``is in accordance with the Constitution.``

Remember those mafia movies in which every `family` has a smart lawyer on its payroll? Whatever the mafia dons do, whatever outrages they commit, they take care to do it by the book, so that they are not on the wrong side of the law.

Permanent legal counsel to General Zia and then President Ghulam Ishaq Khan (who chewed up two National Assemblies) was Syed Sharifuddin Pirzada in whose hands the Constitution has been so much plasticine.

To no one`s surprise, he has been Musharraf`s constitutional adviser since the Oct `99 coup.

In his long and distinguished career Pirzada has wrestled with far graver constitutional issues. In comparison, protecting the integrity of the president`s wardrobe is child`s play, the work of a single imaginative afternoon.(Ayaz Amir)

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#80 by teshah

“the post of pm is a political post. It requires a leader whose heart beats with the people”

You make me laugh! You can’t be serious! Are you sure you are talking about Pakistan?

Shaukat Aziz may have been elected by the most backwards constituency of Tharparkar for expediency, but he maybe the only elected individual from there who actually would do something to develop that area. I think you know better than I do how much the past politicians whose “heart beats with the people” have done not only for Tharparkar but all of Pakistan.

“As for his rise in the city bank, we can imagine it could happen in the same way as his masters got him elected from the most backward costituency of Thaparkar.”

Have you ever worked for an American organization? Do you know what you are talking about? I suggest that you get in a multi-national like IBM or Citibank itself (if they let you in, that is) and see how far you get by merely kissing your superiors’ behinds without showing any worth and value to the company. One can easily imagine that you being a part and parcel of Pakistani culture have no clue what a merit-based system is and how it works. For you, there is only one way to get ahead and it does not require skills such as intelligence, hard work or worth, but a set of skills only a Pakistani like you would understand.

nuke dude - what are u smoking?
QUOTE1 [...The religious organisations have a tremendous influence on Pakistani society. Despite being in such a minority, they are a violent ..... Furthermore, these organisations pose no threat to Pakistan itself... ]

QUOTE2 [....So your bitterness against the Pakistani people and the government is quite unjustified. Both are being held hostage by a very violent and religious minority...]

First you say - the violent religious orgs are somehow no threat to pakistan itself - then you say paki people are being ``held hostage`` by them. Again - why would there be an ``uprising`` if these violent religious ``organization`` are closed down??? They are holding pakis hostage - don`t they?

++++

//.... if India is willing to negotiate ....//

The operating world is IF. As far as Indians are concerend - there is nothing to ``negotiate``. If pakis think their violent religious ``minority`` can win Kashmir for them - well they can try as they have been doing for last 15 years. May be it will work someday.

The truth is - Pakis would have to crack down on the jihadis - the very survival of the state is at stake. Yes - these groups are a big threat to pakistan. And no - there won`t be no ``uprising`` if you close down the jihadi training camps.

+++

As far as incentives are concerned - India is already offering quite a few - trade, pipeline, cultural exchage etc... That`s all India can offer. Pakis know that too.

Mushrraf-Chosen `Dis-Information Minister -- for Prime Minister Shaukat Chilli -- Sheikh Rashid Chilli -- is another Olympian swimmer in the Musharrufian Sea of Sycophancy -- here he is in his most articulate moment:

``“For bold decisions, bold man was imperative,” the minister said in an apparent reference to Gen. Pervez Musharraf while addressing Meet the Press at Karachi Press Club on Friday.

He claimed that 17th Amendment allows Gen. Pervez Musharraf to occupy the both offices of President and Chief of Army Staff simultaneously.

Sheikh Rashid declared. “If we had not started operation in Wana, the US would have done this and think what would have happened then,” the minister asked.

He said that militants may go to other areas or cities but the forces would move there also as the govt was determined to eleminate terrorism.`` (Nation)

please Sheikh sahib don`t kick the egg basket demonstrating -- how the ``imperative bold man`` will eliminate the WANA terrorists....careful

Mushrraf-Chosen Foreign Minister for Prime Minister Shaukat Chilli -- the inarticulate Sheikh Rashid Chilli -- is another Olympian swimmer in the Musharrufian Sea of Sycophancy -- here he is in his most articulate moment:

``“For bold decisions, bold man was imperative,” the minister said in an apparent reference to Gen. Pervez Musharraf while addressing Meet the Press at Karachi Press Club on Friday.

He claimed that 17th Amendment allows Gen. Pervez Musharraf to occupy the both offices of President and Chief of Army Staff simultaneously.

Sheikh Rashid declared. “If we had not started operation in Wana, the US would have done this and think what would have happened then,” the minister asked.

He said that militants may go to other areas or cities but the forces would move there also as the govt was determined to eleminate terrorism.`` (Nation)

---

please Sheikh sahib don`t kick the egg basket demonstrating -- how the ``bold man imperative`` will eliminate the WANA terrorists for the Americans......careful

Thank you for your reply arjun and nikki (and ankit). You will be glad to hear that I do not condone terrorism, anywhere in the world, in any shape or form. So, I hope the practice of insulting each other here at chowk (in a bid to get the last laugh) will end. I realise that many of my own countrymen are also guilty here, but I do hope that we can end this here.

I see that Nikki has given a different reason to why he/she thinks Indians are opposed to Pakistanis. I will discuss arjun`s (and ankit`s) post first, then reply to Nikki.

As I said, I have no way of verifying whether or not the government is actively involved in supporting Jihadis. By the government, I mean Musharraf (as president), Shaukat Aziz, the National Assembly, etc. Whether or not they are authorising the use of public money to fund Jehadi training camps is debatable, but, if true, is certainly wrong.

Accountability to the people (i.e. true democracy) has been virtually non-existent in Pakistan. So, given the people have such little say on how government money is being spent, they are hardly in a position to stop any sort of specific expenditure. But rest assure, if given the choice between building a school or funding a Jehadi training camp with public money, a 100% of educated Pakistanis (that you are likely to come across on this forum or elsewhere in your life) would opt to build a school. It is important that you and your fellow Indians understand this distinction. No Pakistani in his or her right mind would support using our precious resources to fund the Jehad being waged against Indian troops in Kashmir. Its as simple as that.

But Pakistanis do see Kashmiris as their muslim brothers (just as you see Kashmir as being part of India). Morally supporting our brothers in their fight is exactly the same as you supporting your army. We are both justified in our ways. I understand and respect your opinion and you should respect mine. We should not hate each other for this reason alone. It is a petty difference in opinion, for god sake!

That a part of Pakistan has become a training ground for Islamic extremists is undeniable. India can rightfully claim that many Kashmiri freedom fighters have learnt their skills in Pakistan, before fighting the Indian army and killing innocent civilians in Kashmir. But, as I said earlier, the government itself is probably not involved in funding these organisations. They are most likely privately run and operated in secrecy in areas such as Baluchistan and the NWFP.

The religious organisations have a tremendous influence on Pakistani society. Despite being in such a minority, they are a violent and unsophisticated lot (now pretty much all over Pakistan in small pockets, with a large population in the NWFP and Baluchistan). Unless the government wishes to risk a full scale bloody conflict with them, trying to crack down on their training camps is strictly unadvisable. (Unfortunately, unlike the US, the Pakistani government hasn`t got the budget to launch a secret operation against `Islamic fundamentalists` across all cities). Furthermore, these organisations pose no threat to Pakistan itself. So what incentive does the government have to close the camps down (or to try to stop Jehadis from crossing the border into Indian Kashmir)?

Its worth noting that the only reason for the current operations in Waziristan and Baluchistan is the American pressure to hand over any `terrorists`. Were that pressure not there, the government wouldnt raise a finger.

If India wants to address the Kashmir issue it must engage with the Pakistani government, which is its only conduit to the extremist groups (without going to war with Pakistan itself). It will have to start thinking like the Americans i.e. make Pakistan fight its war for it. As it stands currently, the Pakistani government gains nothing from trying to close down Kashmiri camps (or stop cross border infiltration). These camps are self financing and there is no guarantee that Indian hostility would end if the camps were closed down (afterall some other claim could be trumped up by the Indian government). Infact, given such a move would only serve to alienate the people of Pakistan and cause an uprising in the country, this option is clearly very unattractive.

On the other hand, if India is willing to negotiate (and politicians need to be imaginitive here), they can engage the Pakistani government to resolve what is essentially now an Indo-Pak issue (by providing incentives to crack down on the camps e.g. a referendum when all militancy in Kashmir has stopped?). The ball has always been in the Indian government`s court with regard to Kashmir, never in Pakistan`s. The Pakistani government is not equipped to deal with an uprising that should result if it `reversed` its policy on Kashmir. The army generals are passionate about Kashmir, and as you have probably seen over the last five years, are answerable to no civilian.

So your bitterness against the Pakistani people and the government is quite unjustified. Both are being held hostage by a very violent and religious minority, that will not except any opposition.

I hope this adds something to the discussion. There is a way out but it involves tactics and a lot of diplomacy - something which, in my view, has been lacking on the Indian side.

Nikki - any comparisons (except in cricket!) of Pak vs India are meaningless. Unless we resolve the issues that face us today as sworn enemies, we will always be at risk of a nukecular solution. If it makes you feel better, India would `win` hands down, but the loss of life and wealth on both sides would be catastrophic. That`s partly why I feel that we all have a responsibility to promote friendship. Every little step counts.

India`s economic supremacy vs Pakistan is unquestionable. Nor is its progress in other areas such education, IT and democracy. But without a prosperous Pakistan, India will always face an uncertain future. This should be enough for Delhi to work towards a solution.

Kind rgds

76 by godot

Excuse me godot the post of pm is a political post. It requires a leader whose heart beats with the people and not a banker who fills the coffers of his master by sucking the blood of the people who have no option left now but either to run away from this country even at the risk of their lives, to commit suicide or just to become a `khud-kush bambaar`.

As for his rise in the city bank, we can imagine it could happen in the same way as his masters got him elected from the most backward costituency of Thaparkar. This is naked Matarruaism and nothing else.
A question arises why not make him the president of pakistan if he is more capable than Musharraf to allow him to exercise his capability unfettered.

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#71 by nukecular

I dont think there is dislike for Pakistanis at a personal level ; they come across as good or as bad as people from any other place in the world.

Definitely there is a dislike and anger against Pakistan in India. Do you expect Indians to `like` Pakistanis when jihadis funded and groomed by your government come across from Pakistan to kill Indians, explode bombs and spread terror ? Or are you going to tell us that this is not going on?

It is a shame for our nation that we have lost trust in all and sundry. Come on, this nation is 57 years old and still we are caught up in a battle of power and lustful dominance.

Why don`t we need Shaukat Aziz? We do because here is a man who has come to serve the nation leaving behind, perhaps, the most lucrative job that a Pakistani has held. We need to be proud of him as he is the only Asian (not South Asian but Asian) to have reached one of the most executive posts in world banking. It is no farce nor a facade.

I guess we need to give Shaukat Aziz time before we come to such irrational conclusions.

As for a friend who said that the economy turned around due to planes hitting buildings, sir, we needed someone to establish opportunities; to revamp infrastructures; to fund and put money in the right places and to and to establish credibility....we needed Shaukat Aziz and no air-planes helped this cause of hours.

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#74 by teshah

“He is a capable man? How have you judged him so?”

From the mere fact that Shaukat Aziz rose to the highest echelon of an extremely tough and merit-based organization.

Lets face it. You, and others like you, have a problem with him because he made it big in a merit-based system in the West. Given the nature of your, ie, Pakistani civil and political culture, SA would have never risen if he had stayed in Pakistan. A man (or a woman) like SA has no chance of leading the government in Pakistan. Pakistan is lucky to have him in that position. I know, your Mr. Pagara may be right. SA is a two-eyed man in the Land of Ignorance and Intolerance. Leaders like SA are an anomaly in Pakistan. Because he is very smart, not corrupt, loves Pakistan, and is trying to give that god-forsaken country a semblance of respect and dignity, he’ll be either killed or thrown out. That says something about your Pakistan.

dear nukecular, to expect shri arjun jee to be sensible or to shed his hate for pakistan is to expect george bush to have a brain -- it aint gonna happen ever -- you are wasting your time interacting with the likes of such people -- unless of course you`re having fun and not taking it all too seriously -- and by the way where is kkkandk when we need him

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67 by godot

SA a capable man? Firstly he was not selected but elected by the most backward constituencies of Pakistan where the people did not know even who was this man Shoukat Aziz by the name. The voters there did not know even whether he was a `desi` or `Wallaiti` babu. I myself belonged to one of the constituencies and was very curious about the antecidents of SA when some wise guy told me that he is neither a `Desi` nor a `Willaiti`` but a `Farmi` one and probably from a military farm.

He is a capable man? How have you judged him so? Media is projecting him as a sort of super technocrat but all his technocracy-cum-theocracy failed to bring down rain in Pakistan for which he offered even `Nimaze istasqa` in Masjade Nabvi, never done before by any body as proclaims his propaganda minister of the `Talli` brand. Pir Pagara has made a forecast that he won`t stay as pm for more than a year but most people do not give him that much time even as his master may like to bring in a better man as he is wont to do; first Jamali, then Shujaat, and now SA, there is a line of capable men one better than the other. Every one performs Umra as a first priority but prays only for Pakistan and its people. Nothing for themselves. The result is obvious.

Arjun - Ill give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didnt get a chance to read my previous post. Well, for your convenience, Ive copied and pasted it below.

---

#58 by nukecular on September 8, 2004 8:23pm PT
A request to posters - Please do not use the term `P*ki` in any future posts. It is a racial slur, and unless you unequivocally wish to racially abuse someone, please do not use it in your posts. (Note I havent ruled out `intent` altogether)

I trust we can show each other at least some respect. The forum moderators seem to have been caught napping (I assume?) - the use of such language should not be allowed, as it can, and probably already has, offended many people.

Lets try to be civilised shall we!

---

Now back to your post:

So at least you agree that Pakistanis are proud of their religion and independence - well, its a start. Indian and Pakistani cultures are quite similar, so, to a foreigner, one is normally meant to imply the other. For example, a restaurant known as Lahore Balti House, is referred to as being Indian, when strictly speaking it is Pakistani.

The main reason for the widespread use of term `Indian cuisine` is simply because India`s been around for a lot longer, so people are more familiar with the term. And besides, no matter what you call it, its still the same kind of food. I dont see how you can be proud of something like that.

Yoga, outsourcing? Arent we lumping things together here? Outsourcing isn`t a culture, neither is yoga...but to your credit, both are positives and associated with India. I don`t see how this is relevant to my original post though. Anyway...

Pakistanis watch both Indian and Pakistani movies. Besides both industries strive on the bulk of the poor and lower middle class population escaping their rather petty and meaningless existence for a few hours. But, again, the Indian film industry has become somewhat synonymous to India`s presence in the world as a force to be reckoned with. Full credit there!

The tribal areas are harbouring foreign infiltrators, essentially being disloyal to the State of Pakistan. They are free to practise their beliefs, but not free to harbour terrorists. Its somewhat of a geographical issue too, so I dont want to get into that too much.

As far as Kashmir is concerned, I know for a fact that the Pakistani people support the freedom fighters in occupied Kashmir, the same way we support Chechyan fighters and the Palestinians. I am not in a position to comment on whether there is any cross border infiltration, but I believe my government when they say there isnt. I imagine you believe your government, which is only fair. And no I dont think the IA hijacking was carried out by RAW.

`How ironic..Pakis keep saying India should hand over Kashmir because India is poor and it needs to focus on poverty...yet when the largest number of Islamic terrorists come from the jihadis factories of binori, Pakis blame it on poverty and lack of education..`

Ill remind you of your use of language here. Pakistan never asked India to hand over Kashmir because India was poor. Kashmir is India`s only muslim state, which should have been declared a part of Pakistan at the time of the partition. It`s a matter of principle, my friend, not a matter of economics.

I think you`ve proved my point about poverty and lack of education breeding religious extremists There are exceptions, e.g. Mohammad Atta and the lot, but on the whole, the correlation is significantly positive.

Could I ask why you seem to dislike Pakistanis so much? If you could give me specific, rather than generic reasons, it would be much appreciated. Do you think its fair to hold such bitter hatred for 160 or so million people you have never even met? If you dont want to discuss this in public, Im happy to send you my email address.

Rgds

Arjun - Ill give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didnt get a chance to read my previous post. Well, for your convenience, Ive copied and pasted it below.

---

#58 by nukecular on September 8, 2004 8:23pm PT
A request to posters - Please do not use the term `P*ki` in any future posts. It is a racial slur, and unless you unequivocally wish to racially abuse someone, please do not use it in your posts. (Note I havent ruled out `intent` altogether)

I trust we can show each other at least some respect. The forum moderators seem to have been caught napping (I assume?) - the use of such language should not be allowed, as it can, and probably already has, offended many people.

Lets try to be civilised shall we!

---

Now back to your post:

So at least you agree that Pakistanis are proud of their religion and independence - well, its a start. Indian and Pakistani cultures are quite similar, so, to a foreigner, one is normally meant to imply the other. For example, a restaurant known as Lahore Balti House, is referred to as being Indian, when strictly speaking it is Pakistani.

The main reason for the widespread use of term `Indian cuisine` is simply because India`s been around for a lot longer, so people are more familiar with the term. And besides, no matter what you call it, its still the same kind of food. I dont see how you can be proud of something like that.

Yoga, outsourcing? Arent we lumping things together here? Outsourcing isn`t a culture, neither is yoga...but to your credit, both are positives and associated with India. I don`t see how this is relevant to my original post though. Anyway...

Pakistanis watch both Indian and Pakistani movies. Besides both industries strive on the bulk of the poor and lower middle class population escaping their rather petty and meaningless existence for a few hours. But, again, the Indian film industry has become somewhat synonymous to India`s presence in the world as a force to be reckoned with. Full credit there!

The tribal areas are harbouring foreign infiltrators, essentially being disloyal to the State of Pakistan. They are free to practise their beliefs, but not free to harbour terrorists. Its somewhat of a geographical issue too, so I dont want to get into that too much.

As far as Kashmir is concerned, I know for a fact that the Pakistani people support the freedom fighters in occupied Kashmir, the same way we support Chechyan fighters and the Palestinians. I am not in a position to comment on whether there is any cross border infiltration, but I believe my government when they say there isnt. I imagine you believe your government, which is only fair. And no I dont think the IA hijacking was carried out by RAW.

`How ironic..Pakis keep saying India should hand over Kashmir because India is poor and it needs to focus on poverty...yet when the largest number of Islamic terrorists come from the jihadis factories of binori, Pakis blame it on poverty and lack of education..`

Ill remind you of your use of language here. Pakistan never asked India to hand over Kashmir because India was poor. Kashmir is India`s only muslim state, which should have been declared a part of Pakistan at the time of the partition. It`s a matter of principle, my friend, not a matter of economics.

I think you`ve proved my point about poverty and lack of education breeding religious extremists There are exceptions, e.g. Mohammad Atta and the lot, but on the whole, the correlation is significantly positive.

Could I ask why you seem to dislike Pakistanis so much? If you could give me specific, rather than generic reasons, it would be much appreciated. Do you think its fair to hold such bitter hatred for 160 or so million people you have never even met? If you dont want to discuss this in public, Im happy to send you my email address.

Rgds

Arjun - Ill give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didnt get a chance to read my previous post. Well, for your convenience, Ive copied and pasted it below.



#58 by nukecular on September 8, 2004 8:23pm PT
A request to posters - Please do not use the term `P*ki` in any future posts. It is a racial slur, and unless you unequivocally wish to racially abuse someone, please do not use it in your posts. (Note I havent ruled out `intent` altogether)

I trust we can show each other at least some respect. The forum moderators seem to have been caught napping (I assume?) - the use of such language should not be allowed, as it can, and probably already has, offended many people.

Lets try to be civilised shall we!



Now back to your post:

So at least you agree that Pakistanis are proud of their religion and independence - well, its a start. Indian and Pakistani cultures are quite similar, so, to a foreigner, one is normally meant to imply the other. For example, a restaurant known as Lahore Balti House, is referred to as being Indian, when strictly speaking it is Pakistani.

The main reason for the widespread use of term `Indian cuisine` is simply because India`s been around for a lot longer, so people are more familiar with the term. And besides, no matter what you call it, its still the same kind of food. I dont see how you can be proud of something like that.

Yoga, outsourcing? Arent we lumping things together here? Outsourcing isn`t a culture, neither is yoga...but to your credit, both are positives and associated with India. I don`t see how this is relevant to my original post though. Anyway...

Pakistanis watch both Indian and Pakistani movies. Besides both industries strive on the bulk of the poor and lower middle class population escaping their rather petty and meaningless existence for a few hours. But, again, the Indian film industry has become somewhat synonymous to India`s presence in the world as a force to be reckoned with. Full credit there!

The tribal areas are harbouring foreign infiltrators, essentially being disloyal to the State of Pakistan. They are free to practise their beliefs, but not free to harbour terrorists. Its somewhat of a geographical issue too, so I dont want to get into that too much.

As far as Kashmir is concerned, I know for a fact that the Pakistani people support the freedom fighters in occupied Kashmir, the same way we support Chechyan fighters and the Palestinians. I am not in a position to comment on whether there is any cross border infiltration, but I believe my government when they say there isnt. I imagine you believe your government, which is only fair. And no I dont think the IA hijacking was carried out by RAW.

`How ironic..Pakis keep saying India should hand over Kashmir because India is poor and it needs to focus on poverty...yet when the largest number of Islamic terrorists come from the jihadis factories of binori, Pakis blame it on poverty and lack of education..`

Ill remind you of your use of language here. Pakistan never asked India to hand over Kashmir because India was poor. Kashmir is India`s only muslim state, which should have been declared a part of Pakistan at the time of the partition. It`s a matter of principle, my friend, not a matter of economics.

I think you`ve proved my point about poverty and lack of education breeding religious extremists There are exceptions, e.g. Mohammad Atta and the lot, but on the whole, the correlation is significantly positive.

Could I ask why you seem to dislike Pakistanis so much? If you could give me specific, rather than generic reasons, it would be much appreciated. Do you think its fair to hold such bitter hatred for 160 or so million people you have never even met? If you dont want to discuss this in public, Im happy to send you my email address.

Rgds

#66 by plats8

Reading Chowk, not really sure exactly what made you think “that Musharraf was the best thing that happened to Pakistan in a long time.” Musharraf is probably the most maligned individual at Chowk. At Chowk, in the name of ``democracy`` in Pakistan, the corrupt and the incompetent sinners have now become saints, forgetting that one of those “saints” was, just like “Shaukat Chilli”, a creation of another Islamist dictator far worse than Musharraf. Such is the world of Chowk, a place overflowing with intellectual incisiveness and moral uprightness.

Musharraf, his dictatorship notwithstanding, is a very sensible man. He’s smart enough to pick a very capable man in Shaukat Aziz as pm.

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What absolute garbage. Pakistan has a separate identity and the people are proud of their religion, culture and independence. The people of Pakistan would never, even for a second, consider becoming a part of India. Economic growth, for all its hyped up to be, comes with time and commitment. An independent State to practice what you believe in, without fear of persecution, unfortunately, does not come that easily. Just ask the people of Palestine & Israel, Chechniya and Jammu and Kashmir.

Inquirer`s post illustrates, in my view, quite well the fundamental lack of security the Indian Government has managed to instill in some Indians. Anti-Pakistani propaganda, from some Hindu Indians (whom I assume are nationalists), has become so commonplace that it is hardly even worth mentioning.

There can be no doubt that the present Pakistani government is finally bringing Pakistan back on the road to economic prosperity. Note this is not to say (Nikki) that democracy is flourishing, but its certainly better than what the people of Pakistan have had over most of the last decade of the previous century. I strongly feel that critics of the current government are either politically motivated or insincere in their aspirations for the Pakistani people.

On the other hand, I can fully understand why some Indians feel a hightened sense of insecurity in the aftermath of September 11. No one wants a superpower, and in particular the might US of A, to side with the so called enemy. But again if you consider that America`s only interest in the region, from a political standpoint, is to neutralise the threat of terrorism emanating from this part of the world, the issue of Pakistan getting Israel type status is non-existent. In this case, any worries India may have with the current situation are not well founded at all. In fact, due to the lack of intellect in Islamabad, the government hasnt even been able to `milk the cow properly` in the current situation, but that in itself is another debate.

There are also some significant arguments to suggest that almost all anti-Pakistani propaganda is carried out by Hindu nationalists, who dont necessarily have the best interests of India at heart.

For starters, India itself gets nothing from an economically weak Pakistan. Pakistan`s military strength has been and will remain a priority for all governments, regardless of whether the economy is thriving or not. One could argue whether or not this is indeed the best long term strategy, but perhaps it is worth remembering that before a country can prosper, it must learn to survive. The current hostile relationship between India and Pakistan demands that both countries are militarily equipped to deal with any potential threats.

If India`s claims of Pakistan`s support of the Kashmiri insurgents are to be believed, it should also be remembered that an economically weak Pakistan would be devastating to peace in the region. With nukecular weapons in mass production on both sides of the border, neither country would benefit from any sort of conflict (which would inevitably break out into a nukecular war). Of course, its is also common knowledge that, under certain circumstances, poverty and a lack of education breeds religious extremism.

I think both governments and its people have a responsibility. The Indians need to take note of the delicate situation, and find a strategy to tackle it. Anti-Pakistani propaganda serves absolutely no useful purpose, in my view, as it simply alienates discussion and adds fuel to an already raging fire of hate.

Let`s all try to be a little more sensitive in our posts. Crude, unsophisticated remarks refect badly on you, your countrymen and your country (Im referring to everyone here btw). I hope my advice will carry at least some weight.

Rgds

Godot,
``I believe Shaukat Aziz may be the best thing that has happened to Pakistan in a long
time.``

Romair,
``Shaukut Aziz is the best thing that has happened to Pakistan in a long time.``

And I kept thinking that Musharraf was the best thing that happened to Pakistan in a
long time - or so were the claims on chowk. Has the ``best thing`` mantle been passed
on to Aziz now ?

I did not review the responses to the article before sending in my post #62. There seems to be a very widespread disillusionment among the Pakistanis about Pakistan. This is not surprising but should be reconciled at the earliest otherwise their is powder keg with lighted fuse, if this feeling is also present in Pakistan itself. Of course, it may just be the Pakistani diaspora that is confused and anti-Musharraf for some reason.

The most commonsense approach would be to recognize and declare the folly of the partition of India by Pakistan and the prudent course of action would be to proceed in a deliberate fashion to undo the folly. Of course, it can be done only if India wants to participate in it.

INDIANS MAY NOT WANT TO IMPORT TROUBLES FROM PAKISTAN.

But it is up to Pakistan to offer this.

Re: #54

“Sheikh Sycophant -- Shaukat Chilli”

And these people have the audacity to think of themselves as intelligent! How can a thinking person take this seriously! These opinions belong in a trash can!!! My very point proven right!

``Pakistan, in the process of doing America`s bidding has jeopardized its very survival. As a result of unrestrained service to the US, we are facing insurgencies in two of our provinces; our top ``leadership`` is in the crosshairs of al-Qaeda assassins; our urban centers are being devastated by bomb blasts; frustration, sectarianism, despair and crime are rampant; and the state and society are unraveling at the seams.``

****Interesting analysis. If Aziz is openly such an agent of America, then it would be interesting to do a contrast analysis with Musharraf. Also, it shows alot about the deep influence America has acquired in Pakistan. Remember, the very raison detr of the exixtence of Pakistan , nay even its origin, lies in the Britain-US machinations. The greatest tragedy for the entire Indian subcontinent was that Jinnah - undoubtedly a very sensible man - became a stool pigeon for their longterm strategy of hamstringing resurgent India.
As a consequence - I use this deliberately - the current effects tabulated in your paragraph became inexorable. Unless Pakistan assembles the common sense, guts and strength to recharter the path for itself, I am afraid the implosion and discombobulation within Pakistan will reach higher crescendoes.****

``Now is high time to say to the Americans, enough is enough; we have done enough of your bidding: ``above and beyond the call of duty`` as a faithful ally. We need to draw a line, though we should have done it long time back; otherwise like a virtuoso blackmailer, the US will keep on raising the ante.``

****Beggers are not choosers.****

``At the same time we should renounce the use of religio-militant entities, as proxies to further our strategic interests, by creating mayhem and violence in neighboring countries. We should also eschew any delusions of empire-building in our neighbourhood.``

****Can you realistically, under any circumstance, begin to achieve any of this? If you could then the first step is to collaborate in making a strong Indian subcontinent.****

#54 by nasah on September 8, 2004 8:23pm PT

``......and `this` time my Pakistani intellectual friends -- AGAIN -- think that they -- shoorly have a Lotto Jackpot Winner......in Sheikh Sycophant -- Shaukat Chilli -- and his basket of Citi Bank eggs.....``

Great stuff nasah saheb! Shaukat Chilli.......LOL!

Dear MQM Power. You seem to repeat the old argument that Karachi generates revenue that is used in other cities. This argument has been used by MQM for a very long time and has been used to feed the anger that exists in its cadre by saying that your money is being usurped by Punjabis. This argument is planily false. While it is true that a significant amount (maybe as high as 60%) of all federal taxes are collected in Karachi but that does not mean that they are paid by Karachities. If PSO sells oils all over the country and deposits its taxes on those profits in Karachi then it does not mean that those taxes have been paid by Karachi walas. They have been paid by people all over Pakistan who have consumed the products. Since all major companies are HQed in Karachi so they deposits their taxes here but they are earned by selling products all over the country and paid for by Pakistanis in all four provinces.

I agree with you that Karachi has the best human resource, (used to have) the best infrastructure and the only commercial port in the country. To go wrong after having so many natural advantages takes a lot of doing and has been only possible due to the policies persued by your party.

This is not a Lahore vs. Karachi deabte. This is to see what is good fot this nation. What is certainly not good for my country is to have a party rule its most promising city by fear and persue a policy of confrontation. Over the past few years your party has confrontation/issues with Army,establishment, feudals, sindhis, pathans, punjabis, Pakistan itself or whoever is the chosen opponent of the week. You need to mature as a party and be positive in outlook and not look for a favourite bogey of the week to beat up on.

Ministers told to outline six priority objectives

ISLAMABAD, Sept 7: Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz has directed all federal ministers, ministers of state and federal secretaries to submit by Sept 11 their six-point priority goals along with their proposed implementation deadlines.

A senior official of the prime minister`s secretariat told Dawn on Tuesday that a letter had been sent to all the ministers and secretaries reminding them of the prime minister`s speech to the cabinet members last week in which he had told the ministers to work with full dedication and time bound targets for achieving results. They have also been asked to give their proposed strategies to implement these targets.

He said all the ministers and secretaries would submit their six-point agenda and their implementation time line which would be reviewed by the prime minister at a meeting next week. The ministers and secretaries would attend the meeting.

He said the agenda and their implementation strategies would be approved by the prime minister with modifications, if so required, and would be given quarterly deadlines to meet those targets. The quarterly meetings to be presided over by the prime minister would examine the implementation status and approve targets for the next quarter.

The official said that the purpose of the exercise was to minimize red-tapism in the functioning of the government, introduce good governance and make full and effective utilization of the public sector development programme for reducing poverty and increasing employment opportunities through broad-based development.

He said the government had already directed all the ministries and divisions to incur 25 per cent expenditure of the development budget by Sept 30, 2004, to ensure maximum budget utilization during the current fiscal year.

Furthermore, all the ministries and divisions have also been authorised to incur 40 per cent expenditure of their current budgets during the first half (July 1-Dec 31) of the current fiscal year, 2004-05.

The sources said the government had been under criticism for low utilization of development allocations during first two to three quarters of each fiscal year that later resulted in bulk releases in the fourth quarter. This practice compromised the quality of funding utilization.

The government has to face questions every now and then that there is no use for announcing higher allocations for the development budget when real utilization remains usually low due to deterioration of the implementation capacity both at the federal and provincial levels.

It has, therefore, been decided by the government to authorise the federal secretaries to utilize 25 per cent of the development budget in each quarter so as to ensure maximum utilization of public sector development programme (PSDP) every year.

The government has already empowered the federal secretaries/principal accounting officers to utilize up to 50 per cent and 45 per cent of the social sector and other development allocations without prior approval of the ministry of finance.

In 11 months of the last fiscal year, the total utilization had amounted to about 54 per cent of the total allocation but remaining 46 per cent funds were utilized in the month of June 2004.

#51 by nukecular

``This article is a waste of space``

You got that right! You are quite intelligent.

So SA has reached his zenith too soon bowing before the `black stone` and using his thecratic technocracy (Nimaze Istasqa) in Saudi Arabia where rain seldom falls, for making rain in Pakistan. What a joke this man, the choice of Tharparkar, has started playing with us!

A request to posters - Please do not use the term `P*ki` in any future posts. It is a racial slur, and unless you unequivocally wish to racially abuse someone, please do not use it in your posts. (Note I havent ruled out `intent` altogether)

I trust we can show each other at least some respect. The forum moderators seem to have been caught napping (I assume?) - the use of such language should not be allowed, as it can, and probably already has, offended many people.

Lets try to be civilised shall we!

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````I am fully sure that whatever decision he (my Lord Musharraf) takes will be as per the Constitution as well as the law and in the interest of the country as well as the nation and we will back it,” (Shaukat Aziz to BBC)

Is he ``fully sure`` -- that his Lord Musharruf`s decision to STEAL a civilian government at gunpoint -- was ``as per the Constitution as well as the LAW``.....

....Can Shaukat DARE say that......in public

......that he IS ``Fully Sure`` that a renegade insurrectionist soldier committed a treasonous act of overthrowing an elected governmehntn by force -- ``as per the Constitution as well as the law``

.......may be -- in the Constitutional Pimp Pirzada`s Book of -- Counterfeit Constitution -- but not ``as per`` Pakistan`s Real Constitution....

and to hell with that odious phrase ``interest of the country`` .....every genocidal fascist, rightist leftist communist and a Mongloid Invader of a foreign land -- has used that same crummy phrase -- in the name of National Interest....

In Pakistan .....each and every Army Dictator of the Past 57 years in Pakistan -- has committed the same Crime -- and used the same phrase -- in the ``National Interest`` -- to justify it -- and and then fell flat upon his belly as a stinking Failure.....with disastrous results......

every time an army man became the Savior of the country there was a war and there was a defeat -- so much so -- that more than half of the population and half of the real estate of the country was lost for good -- never to come back again -- for ever -- for nobody else`s fault -- but thanks to these Stupid Army Dictators in glittering uniforms strutting like Peacoks -- as the St. Saviors -- of the hapless and confused country....

......and then AGAIN comes another one -- (hopefully last of the Khatimul al Guidas) -- of the Army Messiahs -- P r e s i d e n t General Pervaz-e Musharraf....

now this time -- `unlike` the Regressive One ZIA.....this one -- is supposed to be the ``Progressive One``..........but who in reality comes with the same same worn out script -- same old stinking Snake Oil in a new Bushy Bottle.....in ``the interest of the country``........

apparently to save the country -- from itself....the upteenth time

......and `this` time my Pakistani intellectual friends -- AGAIN -- think that they -- shoorly have a Lotto Jackpot Winner......in Sheikh Sycophant -- Shaukat Chilli -- and his basket of Citi Bank eggs.....

``Shaukat Aziz is a good man, a capable man. Now, in the polluted atmosphere of Pakistani politics and adrift in the sea of sycophancy surrounding him, he will need all his skills to keep his head and his balance.``(Ardsher Cowasji)

Indeed..... Shaukat is a good man and a capable man -- in fact an Olympian Swimmer in the the Sea of Sycophancy Surrounding his `Constitutional` Monarch Musharraf -- in fact he is the Prime Minister of Sycophancy -- here a glimpse:

``I am fully sure that whatever decision he (my Lord Musharraf) takes will be as per the Constitution as well as the law and in the interest of the country as well as the nation and we will back it,” he said.

He said there is nothing wrong in a General’s heading the country’s democratic system. In a parliamentary democracy, the holding of office of the President by the Army Chief is in accordance with the Constitution``.....

Urstruly...you should put more thought into your posts. Your last post was absolute garbage based on your personal prejudices against the Pakistani people. You should refrain from posting such nonsense, unless you are wilfully trying to make your fellow Indians look bad. Such uncouth posts are neither conducive to dialogue and are likely to produce even more vitriolic responses.

I hope you will try to think through your writings before positings next time.

Much appreciated.

Shaukat Aziz is the best! This article is a waste of space (in my view).

The jokers in the pack

By Ardeshir Cowasjee

Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz was duly freely and fairly elected as a member of the National Assembly on August 18 from two constituencies. The margin of victory in Tharparkar should have been somewhat of an embarrassment for him, as it was way out of realistic range, whereas in Attock his success was far more modest and possibly more claimable as a genuine triumph.

His choice of constituency may thus be explained. His election as prime minister in that most honourable of houses, the National Assembly, was competently stage-managed. The general chose well. Shaukat has been duly installed.

His electioneering in Attock cost the lives of three PPPP `activists`, law and order being a desired absentee. In the wilds of Sindh, despite the incredible margin, it was thought fit to harass members of the contesting PPPP. Aftab Shahban Mirani and Qaim `the Commuter` Ali Shah were both detained on several occasions whilst on the move in the area.

Nisar Khuhro was held near Mitthi for over two hours, Manzoor Wassan was arrested (no sympathy on that front) and six other MPAs were locked up in various police stations on the way to Mitthi. Sassu Palijo, that most active and vociferous MPA, was thrown out of a polling station in Diplo and then detained by an additional sessions judge of Tharparkar until the polling had ended.

This, of course, is meek and mild in comparison to how democrat of democrats Zulfikar Ali Bhutto of the then ruling PPP, now the much abused PPPP, dealt with his imagined opponents in the March 1977 elections which he would have won in any case. Why he was mad enough to decide to rig will never be known, but that was the beginning of his journey to the rope`s end. Qaim Ali Shah was active even in those days, busy printing ballot papers for his constituency at the government press at Khairpur.

In Zulfikar`s own constituency of Larkana he was opposed by Jan Mohammad Abbasi of the PNA, a completely harmless man with not a hope in heaven of winning, or even of getting anywhere near the Bhutto vote count. Abbasi arrived in Larkana on January 17 to obtain a certificate of enrolment as a voter. He was unable to do so as, apparently under orders, the district commissioner had sent the election officer off on leave to Sukkur. That same day, whilst Abbasi was sitting addressing a gathering of students he was summoned to the house of the superintendent of police.

On arrival, he was told that the SP had gone to Dokri. Abbasi was taken to Dokri by an armed escort and confined in the Seri Dak Bungalow with six other Jamaat-i-Islami leaders who were standing against Mumtaz Ali Bhutto. They were held there until the evening of January 19, and released after the expiry of the nomination period and the announcement of the unopposed return of the Bhuttos.

When Abbasi moved the Election Commission, affidavits prepared by dour-faced attorney-general Yahya Bakhtiar and Ghulam Ali Memon testified that Abbasi was very much in Larkana, free as a lark, on January 18.

So, we have made progress on one front over the past quarter of a century. The electioneering process has become more civilized. Fixing may still be a fixture in the national system, but confinement and abductions are things of the past - we hope.

Shaukat Aziz is a good man, a capable man. Now, in the polluted atmosphere of Pakistani politics and adrift in the sea of sycophancy surrounding him, he will need all his skills to keep his head and his balance. He has had an eventful professional life, constantly on the move, from post to post; he knows the world from west to east, from north to south.

Educated as he is, his priorities are right. Law and order he puts first on his list (which General Musharraf should have done five years ago). Shaukat is naturally geared to economic progress under which heading lies human development and all that this covers - education being its core, together with poverty alleviation which requires stringent population control, plus health care, sanitation and all public amenities due to the people.

Born in Karachi, 55 years ago, schooled initially at St Patrick`s, under the guidance of the good Fathers, Shaukat moved on to Abbotabad Public School, and then down to Rawalpindi where he graduated from Gordon College. Then back to Karachi, and to the Institute of Business Administration, where he was taught by my old friend Professor Adi Spencer.

Adi is the son of Lovji Spencer, a class mate of my father, Rustom. Lovji sent Adi to schools and colleges in which the teachers were highly educated and qualified - a prime essential lacking in our educational system. He was schooled at the BVS whose then principal was Dr Maneck Bejonji Pithawalla, D.Sc., followed by Behram Sohrab H. J. Rustomjee, B.T. Eng. Adi did his HSC in 1955 and then joined St Patrick`s College from where he graduated in 1959. Amongst others, his college teachers were Father Stephen Raymond, M.A. (Oxon) (Judge Edward Raymond`s son), Father Luperc Mascarenhas, M.A. (Oxon), his brother Oswin, also M.A. (Oxon), and the Dutch Father Elzyerus Bonke, PhD.

In 1959 he moved on to Karachi`s Institute of Public and Business Administration (as the IBA was then known), established by USAID helped by the United States Education Foundation, where at that time visiting professors from Wharton and USC taught and lectured. After graduating he worked for a while in his family business, then at the FNCB (as Citibank was then known) and in 1967 went back to teach at the IBA.

Shaukat Aziz was one of his star pupils, and under Adi`s guidance and instruction he was one of the young men head-hunted by the visiting Citibank officers keen on enrolling talent. Shaukat, an humble man, keeps in touch with Adi, still addressing him as `sir` (old habits de hard). When Adi once protested and suggested to Shaukat that he drop the old habit, he was politely told, ``I have always called you `sir` and will continue to so do.``

He now manages the finances of a vastly overpopulated country housing some 160 million, the large majority afflicted by poverty and a total lack of civic amenities, education and health care. He has limited funds at his disposal, the major portion being dedicated to the defence of the realm. Unless that fact undergoes a miraculous change he may not be as successful in his political career as in his private. Granted, when General Musharraf offered him the finance ministry in 1999, things on our economic front were grim and remained grim until 9/11 brought its sea-change.

Luckily for Pakistan, and for Shaukat, when the call came, Musharraf did the right and proper thing. Pakistan fulfilled the needs of the US, our men abroad considered their country to be a safe haven and funds flowed in. This time round, they had a competent and scrupulously honest manager so the money did not wander off course.

Given what is available on the ground, the president general has finally made the correct choice to fill the prime ministerial slot. But the political system under which he has chosen to operate demands that payoffs be made, that rewards be handed out, that blackmail be answered with bribes. Now Shaukat has the unenviable task of dealing with and shuffling a pack of cards - more than 52 of them, plus a full hand of jokers.

Yesterday Adi and I raised a jar to him, wishing him a safe journey.

I also join Cowasjee in wishing Mr. Aziz well. Good luck and safe journey Shaukat!

With all due respect, I agree with you that every effort has been made on the part of the establishment and the feudal powers to diminsh Karachi`s importance and to transfer the center of the economy to Lahore and other Punjabi areas in the same way as the capital was transferred to a more safer location (ie, closer to the border than ever before).

Through the tyranncal and despotic rule during the Nawaz Sharif administeration in particular, money raised in Karachi was utilized to polish up, clean, and shine Lahore, and portray Karachi as a run down devastated area. Benazir Bhutto, the army, and mian Nawaz Sharif are the prime reasons for the past law and order problem in Karachi, and this view has been documented and endorsed by numerous human rights organizations including Amnesty International. Therefore, without having lived in Karachi, without having studied the problem, I would be carefull not to comment on political situations in other places in the fair interest of the arguement.

Let me unequivocally state that Karachi has been blessed as a port city and thus will never lose its importance, prestige, and vigor regardless of such propaganda. Ask any Karachiite, and ascertain how closely do they connect to their city as does anyone else from any other land. Karachi has always and continues to facilitate political, religious, and economic immigration and emmigration of refugees and those seeking a better future. It has given to others more than ever. It has played host to millions of muslim refugees from both the East (India, Bangladesh) and the West (Afghanistan to Bosnia), as well as from the North (from all portions of the nation). We are proud of our heritage, our culture, our openness, our liberalization, our proactivism, our pragmatic approach, and our strength.

There is not one city in Pakistan besides Karachi that can claim itself to be a miniPakistan. Your argument that the moving of mills and textiles, etc to Lahore and other parts of the country is valid to some degree. However, it would not serve any economic prudence if you were to avoid utilizing Karachi as a port. The advantages of a port city are numerous including access to shipping, localization of production, a conglomerate of skilled workmenship, and a relatively educated populace. A lot of the industries nonlocal to Punjab established and running there for the most part face elevated overheads both in terms of production, raw material transport, and delivery (remember all havey exports and imports have to channel through Karachi and Gwadar). Therefore, the Pakistani consumer, your business interests, and finally your pockets are hit if you selectively avoid Karachi.

I have a lot of friends from Lahore, and they are proud Lahorities as they should be. Your city is a city of culture, a city of history, and it deserves its due share as an integral part of this country.

Your comments are quite ambigous. First you say that ``In my view this is by design because if Karachi develops than there will be no disconteted youth which is the reason of existance of your party. Its the anger of these young people that is your main support base and there will be no anger if there is peace and prosperity.``

Karachi has been quite an active political and economic center since 1947. Even before 1986, it`s inhabitants were quite active politically under PPP, JI, etc. Demographics has a role to play in this as well. The ethnic makeup of this city is different and has a tendency towards activism. Therefore, to base the assumption that MQM`s base lies solely on disgruntled youth, let me ask you that if the army were to launch an operation and eliminate up to 25,000 people in Lahore, wouldn`t that make a lot of families and friends disgruntled? We are not the only people upon whom an army crackdown was launched. There are other examples such as in NWFP (which should be called pakhtoonkhwa) and in balochistan where the price of protest and demanding one`s rights have been rockets and bullets.

`` Your agenda is not the agenda of this country. `` Well said, the agenda of this country is not the agenda of the people, it is the agenda of the aristocracy, the establishment, the army, and the feudal rulers. The money generated by these transferred industries goes into the pockets of the rick chaudery`s and vadera`s, not to the average lahori resident.

Your comments exhibit an animosity and negative distraught over the courage and valor of the people of Karachi. I invite you to join our hands and bring prosperity to this great nation.

Take a good look at this picture. This is not a picture of a helpless Iraqi father, it is a picture of all Muslims around the globe who are currently being ruled by foreign puppets and a social class that survives by sucking blood from their veins. This social class is the custodian of foreign imperialist interests in their respective countries. This is a picture of Pakistani nation. Just like this helpless man, the gun totting fauji criminals, their civilian goons, and plaincloth thugs have also taken the whole nation as hostage, gaged them, and put a hood on their head. A common Pakistani is as disenfranchised as he never was before. He does not have a constitutency. He has been rendered a foreigner, a refugee, a prisoner in his own home by these criminals. A Pakistani- whose only crime is the accident of birth; of being born in a lawless land that is being ruled by ruthless criminals. Today, he is not even sure how long the comfort that he finds in his family and children would last. He has nothing to offer to his children, accept a corrupt, indecent, and frustrated life in a lawless society and land - a land which was once his.

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In 1986 i.e. at the time of MQM`s coming to prominence, Karachi was the only economic engine in this country. Your party`s campaign has resulted in wholesale shifting of industry to Lahore and area around Lahore. There was almost no textile industry in Lahore at that time. Now Lahore is the mainstay on textile industry. Almost all the new knitwear and finishing industry that has come up in 1990s has been in Punjab. The Chinioti businessmen who migrated from Calcutta/East Pakistan have shifted to Punjab. The greatest gift of your party has been to provide approx. USD 3 bln in textile investment over last 5 years to Punjab which could have come to Karachi. This has provided jobs and brought a new level of prosperity to Lahore. One visit to Lahore can show how well the city is doing and how much better it is run. Any major MNC that has come to Pakistan in the last 15 years has put offices in Lahore/Islamabad e.g. Pepsi, Nestle, Telenor, Honda, etc.

In my view this is by design because if Karachi develops than there will be no disconteted youth which is the reason of existance of your party. Its the anger of these young people that is your main support base and there will be no anger if there is peace and prosperity. Your agenda is not the agenda of this country.

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Pakistan Constitution per Shaukat Aziz:

“Today, the President of Pakistan is also holding the post of Chief of Army Staff which is constitutional. I am fully sure that whatever decision he takes will be as per the Constitution as well as the law and in the interest of the country as well as the nation and we will back it,” he said.

He said there is nothing wrong in a General’s heading the country’s democratic system. In a parliamentary democracy, the holding of office of the President by the Army Chief is in accordance with the Constitution,``(Nation)

now here is a Constitutionally Loyal Prime Minister -- of a Constitution-Molester President -- courtesy Constitutional Sleight of Hand Illusionist ....... Sharifiuddin Pirzada.....

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