We Don’t Need You Shaukat Aziz

``We Don’t Need You Shaukat Aziz``

You tell `em Abdul Naeem! You say it like it is!

I don`t however, quite see the `obviousness` of Shaukat Aziz - America connection. SA is merely a pawn who couldn`t last a second if Musharaf weren`t there. I don`t think PML-Q and other sell-out chamchaaz would refrain from throwing Aziz out simply cause he`s America`s man. Even America`s man would need a local consituency. And the Pakistan Armed forces are his constituency.

Thus far, it seems SA - politically impotent and all - is the Army`s choice for further tinckering.

Wonderful analysis! But what about Shoukat`s latest metamorphosis. He was projected by media, especially the governmental one, as a modern technocrat, a true follower of Quaide Azam`s teachings, but he is now showing up as a rank ritualistic theocrat. His top priority was the performance of the ritual of Umra himself and also to enable the families of those who died when he escaped the blast, to do the same. Then he made a statement that we are backward because we are less Islamic (than the west, perhaps). To top it all he has now appealed to the nation to offer `Nimaze Istasqa` on wednesday next to bring down rain on the country. So from an economic wizzard he has turned out to be a rain-making technocrat. Umra, Nimaze Istasqa, etc., are his tools for making an economic tiger of us! It appers Ziai pseudo-Islamist spirit has come to life again in the garb of a so called enlightened technocrat negatig the very spirit of the teachings of the Quaid and the Allama Iqbal which he professed to follow.

``His top priority was the performance of the ritual of Umra himself`` -- or may be a political Umra -- Karachi to Dubai to Mecca.....

such heartfelt pleadings...i bet after shaukat aziz reads this, he will resign and get on he first flight to ny.

waisay is`nt it funny that editors, who are expats and probably include indians, publishing an article arguing that successful expat pakis are traitors. also funny that editors in pushing their agendas are relying on authors who lack the inteligence to crack 500 on toefl.

chowk really is scrapping bottom of the barrel.

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teshah #2:

That is one interesting post....``we are backward because we are less Islamic.....nimaze ishkaka??? and following poet Iqbal.......``what a stupid begining with an army of 60 ministers, pak army with na-pak generals.....I read on chowk unplugged about a cartoon on geo-tv. It goes something like, ``Musharraf can easily make Bush win elections.........by offering him to run from Tharparkar``.......now this is funny!!!

1. Now is high time to say to the Americans, enough is enough;

2.At the same time we should renounce the use of religio-militant entities, as proxies to further our strategic interests, by creating mayhem and violence in neighboring countries.

3. We should also eschew any delusions of empire-building in our neighbourhood.


Who will bell the cat??

[Pakistan and Musharraf has done more, much more than enough for the Americans. No single country/ individual has done more for the Americans; not even the American poodle Blair/ United Kingdom.]

Every now and then, our Paki friends come up with gems like these. Just what has Pakistan done? Create and shelter the Taliban and Al-Qaeda, selectively round up some of them, hand them over to the US, and collect the US bounty check? All this while the deadly duo Osama and Mullah Omar, and their trusted lieutenants hide in the FATA planning the next round of attacks on the Great Satan?

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why complain -- Shaukat Aziz was democratically elected under Guided Democracy -- by Guide Musharraf under the Guidance of Guide Azam General Bush......

Guided Democrcy -- is a special form of Democracy of Enlightened Moderation -- based upon regional local conditions suitable for third world`s militaro-religious countries -- like Pakistan....

..... whereby the Guides pick the candidate and guide him thru guided polling stations under guided polling officers -- who guide the voters to carry the guided voting purchis to stuff in the guided polling boxes...

......if a voter could not make it or is dead -- the Gracious Guides will graciously stuff the purchis on behalf of the absentee voter instead of giving him or her the trouble of being resurrected and born-again and then coming to those guided polling booths in 110 degrees of heat and sun...

there is no doubt that mr. Shaukat Aziz is a duly elected Prime Minister -- he is good for Pakistan -- because Shrewd Shaukat is the first Prime Minister who has dicovered the root cause of ALL the ills of Pakistan -- ``Pakistanis are backward because Pakistanis are` less Islamic than the United States and the United Kingdom``....

what is good for Uncle Born-Again Sam is good for Shaukat`s Born-Again Islamistan ...

...what`s wrong with that....?

I believe Shaukat Aziz may be the best thing that has happened to Pakistan in a long time.

Faisal and twintopaz -

when you have a site that doesn`t pay to the writers and accepts political writings from any Tom, Dick and Harry, what you get is crap. I don`t think Chowk is ``anti Pakistan`` or ``anti Islam.`` I think, unfortunately for Chowk, most of the political-submissions are from those Pakistanis who have axe to grind without offering an intelligent solution. These articles are not exactly op-ed page articles of a reputable newspaper. Looking at the standard of political writings published at Chowk, trust me, policy makers don`t read Chowk. They know where these opinions belong: in a trash can. Yes, it`s too bad for Chowk that they cannot find intelligent and balanced articles to publish. Chowk is a site that could have been.

Firstly, there is a thing called freedom of speech and everybody has a right to exercise it. Naeem did just that. He felt disgusted by the entire process that made Aziz PM and he vent out his feelings through writing at chowk. What`s wrong with that?

Secondly, I don`t think at all that chowk is becoming an anti-paki site. And btw, what good things do we have to write about? Oh yea, the progress...how can I ignore a couple of flyoves and roads that are being built in Karachi (finally!!!). If building roads and flyovers and parks is what we term as progress then we deserve to remain a third world nation.

Thirdly faisaluno, Aziz won`t resign...I doubt if he even knows about chowk. So, don`t worry yourself over that or the fact that chowk is run by expats who also let interacts such as yours be posted.

btw -- Abdul Naeem wrote a very sharp incisive witty factful article that could stand shoulder to shoulder with any OpEd published in any war mongering zionist paper of our New York USA...period

folks caution -- Chowk is a great place -- my plea to those like Godot who write and get published on Chowk -- Don`t bite the hand that feeds you -- or -- don`t poison the soup that u may have to ask for a sip of -- later on.....

it`s simple ...jisko ho jaan-o dil `Aziz` uskee gali meiN jai keoN.....

#12 by nasah on September 6, 2004 8:01am PT

Great piece nasah saheb!! You have ``guided`` your point very well.

godot, i dont know how you can be so heartless...i mean i was so moved by the article that i was bawling like a baby while reading this at work...just imagine, out nuclear program, jiss kay leeyeh 150mn people did khun paseena aik, will now be consigned to the dustbin of history due to the karnama of one man namely jasoos shukat aziz, code name shaitan_banker. even james bond did not have to deal with an enemy as khuturnaak as this.

waisay now that indians have learnt its so easy to infiltrate paki establishement, they will soon be sending raw agents to steel our other precious assets such as secrets behind kick ass kebabs found all over pak.

i certainly will be looking out for raw agents at bandu khan`s.

Mr. Naeem ...dont you think that Shaukat Aziz and Musharaf are also becoming puppets of ``Economic Outsourcing Story`s`` directed by Uncle Sam. What are the real objectives beyond of US kindness strategy......just a part of Pakistan`s pie (atomic/nuclear energy, iron/copper, oil or easier access to Afghanistan). And Shaukat Aziz is going to be star in these scenario as he was being Finance Minister (best post).

Well ........ we never seen that there are good and bad without any differences. I dont know that Aziz PM would like to be good actor or bad actor. Let we see...

Shaukut Aziz is the best thing that has happened to Pakistan in a long time. The guy has delivered wherever he has gone, including on Pakistan`s economy. He left a very high paying job, came back to Pakistan, to work as the finance minister, without a salary.

It`s about time Pakistan was run by someone who has done something in his life, on his/her own merit. Who has reached the top ranks of the biggest companies in the world, on his/her merit. Rather than being ruled by Junejos, and Bhuttos and Jamalis and Makhdooms and all these other bozos who have nothing but their feudal ancestors to thank for reaching the positions of power that they sit it.

I am always amazed when people commenting on Pakistan consider the feudals to be a product of some kind of democratic system.

Ballu Khan sahib -- mulahaza ho -- Guided Democracy of Enlightened Moderation -- at full bloom:

---

``President Gen Pervez Musharraf on Sunday appointed Syed Sharifuddin Pirzada, Dr Salman Shah and Nilofer Bakhtiar advisers to (for) the prime minister. ...

---

come to think of -- both gentlemen -- Guide Bushrraf and Guide Azam Bush -- should form an Organization to spread Guided Democracy in Middle Eastern countries -- and call it ....Al Guida..

on a lighter note -- Hey subcontinentals, did you see this headline :

...........................................Singh Overtakes Tiger...........................................
Vijay Singh won the Deutsche Bank Championship today and took the world No. 1 ranking from Tiger Woods, who had held it for 264 straight weeks.(AP)

Shoukat `serving` without pay. It reminds me of a young man who was appointed as a `Patwari`. After a month they called him to receive his pay. He was surprised and exclaimed, ``Oh! Those damnfools, `Yahaan tankhaah bhi dete hein```. Beware of such people. He is either too naive or a super `technocrat`. Presently every body is aking who is this Shoukat. A few days back an editor of an urdu daily, a friend of mine, rang me up and said, ``Do you know who is this Shoukat``. I narrated an anecdote to him which I repeat here. Sometime ago I alighted from a bus at Lahore station and proceeded towards a `rehrhi` standing nearby to purchase something. I saw two curious young ladies standing by the rehrhi who left as soon as I reached the same. Out of curiosity I asked the rehrhi-wala, ``Paha ji, eh maimaan desi si ya walaaiti?`` He said, `` Nah paha ji, nah eh desi si nah wallaiti. Eh te faarmi si``. I told the friend that I was quite satisfied by his reply and you can also use this formula keeping in mind that the military farms are much in the news these days.
As for the Chowk it is doing a wonderful job by providing a platfarm to the people of Pakistan to give vent to their pent up emotions instead of becoming `Khudkush Bombaars`.

#22 Al-Guida, funny!

And to add to his achievements, he has broken the all time (Pakistani) record of having 58 members in cabinet, he has now 59.

He has peeled off his skin, and I feel like living in a banana republic.

#23
``on a lighter note -- Hey subcontinentals, did you see this headline :
Vijay Singh won the Deutsche Bank Championship today and took the world No. 1 ranking from Tiger Woods, who had held it for 264 straight weeks.(AP)``

Why subcontinentals?
Vijay has a Sanskrit name, looks too dark, speaks funny, wobbles his head and I have it from good sources that he wears chappals at home as well.

Please dont offend our Pakistani friends here.

U missed the headline -- Singh (Lion) takes over the Tiger...!

``Alliance for the Restoration of Democracy (ARD) has said despite the low turnout in by elections at Attock (NA-59) Shaukat Aziz’s bagging 75000 votes in the said constituency shows that it was worst form of poll rigging in the country.

Talking to journalists here on Thursday Chief Coordinator ARD Malik Hakmin Khan, PML (N) former Minister of State Shaikh Aftab Ahmed and PPP leader Shaikh Ahsan Advocate said that government declared forcibly 75000 votes bagged by its candidate and 29000 votes gotten by Dr Sikandar Hayat Khan.

“To acquire 75000 votes despite low turn out from Attock constituency is a clear cut poll rigging on government parts”, they noted.

They said government took each and every possible measure for snatching the victory for its candidate.

ARD leaders said government is responsible for the blood shedding of innocent PPP workers during its by-elections campaign in Attock.

They said 14 innocent people were killed and more than 100 were injured during bloody by-polls drive for by polls.

Atmosphere of fright prevailed in entire constituency due to PPP workers murder in Attock, ARD leaders said.

They deplored that without caring for the feelings of the deceased families government agents beat drums and distributed sweets after the victory of their candidate, which is against Islamic values.``
Paktribune september 07 2004

mr. godot, faisal and twintopaz, please dont let your emotions have their way with you. I know whenever you hear a prevailing politcal entity brag about turning the establishment ``up side down`` through rigorously instilling ``islamic values`` into it, you choose to disregard the failures of previous politcal entities, who had used this kind of bravado over and over again throughout their regimes..

to the chowk editor, you have never failed to promote independent thought and i hope you keep on the good work

Al-Guida.
Lol!
That is surely the right name for the latest terror organization headed by Hazrat Jhadh.

corrected -- Singh(Lion) overtakes the Tiger

Frankly...what is real democracy mean ? And what is indicators of democracy itself ? is it a number of vote, nice government and parliament structures or successful election ? Anybody knows.. :))

``Atmosphere of fright prevailed in entire constituency due to PPP workers murder in Attock,``

so there is already blood on Mr. Shaukat`s hands -- so early in his new career...!

Apropos Shaukat Aziz drawing no salary
By Amir Wasim
http://www.dawn.com/2004/08/12/nat1.htm

ISLAMABAD, Aug 11: Pakistan Muslim League-N information secretary has accused prime minister-designate Shaukat Aziz of violating elections rules and the Constitution by what he called ``deliberately concealing`` details of his assets in his nomination papers , submitted for contesting by-elections.

Our Staff Reporter Khaleeq Kiani adds: Shaukat Aziz has paid a total of Rs15,876 income tax during the last three assessment years against his declared assets of over Rs3.7 billion.

The finance minister, along with his nomination papers, filed last month the statement of his assets and liabilities as of June 2003, although he was required under section 12(2) (f) of the Election Rules to file his statement of assets as of June 2004.

According to Mr Aziz`s declaration of assets, his domestic as well as foreign bank accounts, other sources of income and the value of his assets, have remained unchanged for the last two years. Seemingly, he is not drawing salary as finance minister and he is spending nothing.

The statement of assets and liabilities filed by the finance minister to the Election Commission of Pakistan suggest that he paid an income tax of Rs4,908 in assessment year 2003-04, Rs1,854 in 2002-03 and Rs9,114 in 2001-02.

A petition was filed by a freelance journalist Shahid Orakzai before the Chief Election Commission here on Tuesday under Article 62 of the Constitution and section 108(2) read with section 103 of the Representatives of the People Act of 1976.

The minister was not available to explain despite repeated calls. The petitioner drew the attention to the two statements of assets and liabilities by the finance minister, published in the Gazette of Pakistan and submitted along the nomination papers which has an intervening period of more than one year.

He said the balance in an unidentified account in Citibank, New York, is given as $2,912,348 on June 30, 2003 and exactly the same amount is shown in the account on July 6, 2004.

Further the deposit in an account in Lloyds, London on June 30, 2003, was shown to be pound sterlings 310,388,57 and is now showy barely as 310,388 sterlings. If the last two digits, i.e. 57 represented a fraction or was a typographical error, the operational status of this account is almost the same.

The current account (2238-59) at HBL, Islamabad, shows a balance of Rs580,393 and this account, too, apparently remained unchanged. A saving account (5700684018) at Citibank, Islamabad shows a balance of Rs145,467 and this account has not moved by a digit during the period in question.

The balance in an account, identified as foreign exchange (FE) 25 accounts at Citibank, Islamabad, was shown as $761.62 and the same now stands at $761.00. All these bank accounts have not been operated during the last one year.

The petitioner contends that since the minister did not have any other declared account inside Pakistan, the question arises as to how did he meet his expenses during the period between June 2003 and July 2004 if he did not operate a single account.

It may be noted that he had shown a sum of Rs5,000 in his purse on October 15, 2003, and on July 6, 2004, once again, he had exactly the same amount in his pocket. ``That is sufficient to prove that he has other sources of income which he did not declare in the latest nomination forms``, he alleged.

The petitioner said the minister paid Rs40,000 to his party as the fee for the two party tickets for NA-59 and NA-229 and also deposited Rs4,000 each as security for each nomination.

He contended that from where did he receive the money because the withdrawal was not shown on his bank record. He said the election campaign of the minister was going on with great pomposity but it was not known who was financing this when he was not using his own money.

Dear readers, draw your own conclusions

Mr. Naeem, it is easy to crticise especially if you dont let facts come in the way of your analysis. You have claimed that Mr. Aziz is a foreign citizen. Do you have any proof of that? Have you read it in credible newspaper? Or is it just your hunch? I dare you to present any proof of his foreign citizenship.

You have not raised any issue with Shaukat except that he will become an American agent. Well by that argument I can accuse anyone of having the potential of being a zionist/indian/american agent and assume him to be not qualified for any political job.

Shaukat Aziz has done a marvellous job as our Finance Minister and has been constitutionally elected as Prime Minister. Give him a chance and I for one firmly believe that he will be great for our country and steer us towards a better economic future

#32 by whiteorchid on September 6, 2004 11:31pm PT
``Frankly...what is real democracy mean ?``

``Real`` democracy in the present context means dictatorship!!

In reply to comment #26 I would direct the commenter to this reply by Shaukat Aziz (SA) regarding this issue in the dawn newspaper.

I was personally impressed at the aggressiveness of SA in asking each minister to declare set defined goals and objectives while allocating a 3-month probationary period to evaluate their performance. He clearly states that in previous administrations, no goals were ever defined. This aggresiveness has definitely created panic amongst the beaurocracy as is evident by its ample press coverage following the declaration of allocation of ministeries.

http://www.dawn.com/2004/09/07/top1.htm

BIGGER IS BETTER: The prime minister defended the large size of his cabinet of ministers and ministers of state totalling more than 60, calling it ``totally in line with what we require``.

``You could have had a cabinet half this size but then you would create bottlenecks.`` He said a country like Malaysia with a population of only 25 million people had 32 full ministers and as many ministers of state while Pakistan has a population of 150 million.

``If you create large monolithic ministries, then you create bottlenecks in execution and accountability gets defused,`` he said. ``If you create clear identifiable ministries which have clear task, goals... it all fits in with the paradigm which is different than the past.``

He said ministers looking after too many divisions would not be able to focus on their job. Ministers of state would act like junior ministers and given some specific responsibility and they would report to the minister. ``That way you train somebody, you teach governance and you get a spare pair of hands.``


TARGETS FOR MINISTERS: The prime minister said clear goals would be set for ministers as well as secretaries of ministries to be monitored by him and `people in my secretariat`.

``I will personally review the performance of each minister, minister of state and secretary together, and the goals have to be in sync,`` he said. ``Now all three will have clear goals and... it is my job and their job to see that they are in sync, so they are not working at cross-purposes.``

The prime minister said a letter would go out next week to these functionaries asking them to cite six to eight of their key priorities with deadlines to achieve their targets, in an unusual move that he said was ``making a lot of people nervous``.

This process, he said, would introduce an accountability of performance in which the chief executive would help ministers and other functionaries to succeed through dialogue with them.

He said his government would be `result-driven` contrary to the previous culture of mere `activity` in the shape of meetings and nodding without caring for results. ``Result is what will matter (now).`` This, he said, might be difficult in some ministries because of known `intangibles` and easier in others. ``But those are managerial issues which can be resolved.``

TOUGH ON PERFORMANCE: The prime minister said a secretary, as the principal accounting officer of any division, would have a major role and targets synonymous with those of the minister and the minister of state.

``He can`t hide, he can`t be in what I call the ping-pong mode - transfer the file here and there.`` Mr Aziz said he would be ``very tough on performance... because if we can`t perform then really we have no right to be here``.

He disagreed with a suggestion that big size contributed to failures of some previous cabinets and asked: ``Did they have any goals, did they know what they are supposed to deliver, were they managed? The answer is no, no, no.``

Al Guida....Nasah ji in his element!


Al Shaukat can be good for Pakistan. Yet there are genuine issues that many well-meaning Pakistanis have with his elevation. And chowk is nothing if not a well-meaning progressive Pakistani website with subcontinental vision :)

First and foremost let me make clear that MQM has never endorsed military rule or approved this form of back-stage democracy (ie, electioneering of Mr. Shaukat Aziz).

However, keeping in mind the current geopolitical atmosphere, existing national threats, and internal problems, our nation`s governing policy should be based on rational expectations. For instance, eliminating poverty should not be our goal, reducing it should be. Why, because the former is practically not possible. Let us give him a chance, he seems to be slowly moving in the right track at least from an economic stand point.

The establishment has realised that without economic stability and progress, the nation is not going anywhere fast. Hello, what has MQM been saying all along. Develop Karachi, it is YOUR economic powerhouse regardless of if you like it or not. If you don`t maintain and feed your generator properly, do you still expect it to provide energy for your honey-moon jako0zee? Why have dubai, hong kong, singapore, kuala lampur, mumbai, and other port cities thrived during the century? Why have their governments been pumping above and beyond into these cities, and our government opts to take instead of giving? The reasons are abound, form ethnic and class discrimination, jealousy, power greed, and last but not least repression of a democratic institution that every citizen in Pakistan is a victim of.

I believe that the word`s of visiting former Prime Minister of Malaysia Dr Mahathir Bin Mohamad that ``Pakistan has the potential to become a strong Muslim country`` should be read with keen insight. Pakistan has the potential to be ... , currently IT IS NOT ... despite its array of nuclear bombs, hurray hurray for our military!!! Today`s might comes from economic strength, innovation, education, and progress; not from nuclear bombs.

Democracy in Pakistan is nonexistent. You have to demand and fight for your rights as if your are living under occupation. Our military has served only to destablize our internal power structure, creating rifts amongst political movements reminiscent of British colonial standard operating procedure.

A prime example was the ruthless crackdown by the millitary on the MQM. True, there was a law an order problem in the 90s but who caused it. Why is the blame so easily placed on MQM`s shoulders and not on the millitary who financed an underground operation using thugs and criminals in a futile attempt to eliminate the demands of a people? Why is there such prejudice against the legitimate demands of the inhabitants of the city that provides more than 70% of your nation`s revenue? As Dr. Muhatir indicated while explaining his point of view on democracy, ``Mahathir said he was of the view that democracy was not a perfect system, as sometimes a small minority could play effective role in the democratic process.`` Alas, someone sees the light.

Unfortunately, the wrong minority has been in command for the past 57 years. The minority comprised of the corrupt. Not the minority, that deserves to have the power.

Democracy means rule by the people, not rule by another people. What is happening in Iraq is exactly the same that has been happening in Karachi. Why do we have nonlocal police speaking a different language and dialects policing towns and villages foreign to them? If you don`t talk the talk, how do you expect to walk the walk?

MQM`s demands have simply been a more fairer allocation of resources towards those who contribute vastly more compared to other parts of our country. MQM has never been unloyal to its nation, and never intends to. When its representatives visit Inida, they are labeled as traitors, and when high-ranking officials of other parties visit, they are given the status of peace-maker and dialogue-seeker?

Money and politics go hand in hand. No government has ever functioned without the proper backing of financial resources. However, unfortunately in Pakistan, corrupt rulers and feudal powers have since 1947 been abusing the power and money of the people for their own nefarious designs and to fill in their personal cofers. The power struggle in Karachi has been and still remains, between the people of Karachi and the establishment and military over the issue of control.

An effective propaganda campaign against the MQM on all levels in the past decade has attempted to tarnish the image of the MQM as purely a terrorist organization. True, a number of illegal and improper activities have taken place under the guise and name of the MQM, but if you are to fall in this trap then you are commiting the same wrong that the US government is doing by stereotyping all Pakistanis in the US as possible terrorists.

The fact of the matter is, that due to MQM`s organized structure and middle class urban following, it has manifested into a thorn in the side of the establishment. It is proudly the only political party than even had a proven corruption case against it. It has during its tenure, done its utmost best to promote civic projects, and introduce pure governance. Its rapid mobilization, zealous following, and goal-oriented approach is worthy of consideration. It is the only party that requires its elected representatives to submit sealed resignation letters to be used by the party in case they do not perform in accordance with the demands of those who they represent. Accountability to the public is a must for democracy to flourish.

Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz has done one thing that is worthy of praise. He has set defined goals and endpoints for his ministers and for himself and has asked that this should be in writen form signed on official paper and letterhead. Thus, for the first time the public can scrutinize the performance of these ministers. I believe this is a first step towards keeping the public online with what is going on and is a sign of progress.

#17 by nasah

Using your own logic Don`t bite the hand that feeds you -- or -- don`t poison the soup that u may have to ask for a sip of later on, since you are mercilessly critical of Pakistan and of Musharraf’s policies, that country should never let you in. Also, since you have been very critical of the US and Bush’s policies, the US should kick you out of this country because, after all, you are “biting” the hand that feeds you. So much for your “liberal” outlook!

You are a critic only when you know your attacks will not be responded with severity. I guess Chowk being a South Asian site you know what you are talking about. You know your own kind well, Mr. Hasan. Thanks for your advice. You know how to smoke your pipe. I do appreciate your concern and “pleading” with me!

PS: I couldn’t help but laugh at your insinuation that I’m biting the hand that is feeding me and that I may need a sip of the soup later on. Yes, I know, my hefty check is in the mail.

Let us be pragmatic. Look at the brilliance with which Shaukat Aziz has reformed a dead economy. Instead of being grateful to him, we are indulging in mud-slinging. Isn`t it shameful on all of us that a man capable of making Pakistan move ahead is being looked at as another country`s choice.

Having said that, let me plead to all my fellow Pakistanis that in the largest interest of this nation we ought to give this technocrat PM some time to prove his credentials...and I am sure they are magnanimous.

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Pakistan Constitution per Shaukat Aziz:

“Today, the President of Pakistan is also holding the post of Chief of Army Staff which is constitutional. I am fully sure that whatever decision he takes will be as per the Constitution as well as the law and in the interest of the country as well as the nation and we will back it,” he said.

He said there is nothing wrong in a General’s heading the country’s democratic system. In a parliamentary democracy, the holding of office of the President by the Army Chief is in accordance with the Constitution,``(Nation)

now here is a Constitutionally Loyal Prime Minister -- of a Constitution-Molester President -- courtesy Constitutional Sleight of Hand Illusionist ....... Sharifiuddin Pirzada.....

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In 1986 i.e. at the time of MQM`s coming to prominence, Karachi was the only economic engine in this country. Your party`s campaign has resulted in wholesale shifting of industry to Lahore and area around Lahore. There was almost no textile industry in Lahore at that time. Now Lahore is the mainstay on textile industry. Almost all the new knitwear and finishing industry that has come up in 1990s has been in Punjab. The Chinioti businessmen who migrated from Calcutta/East Pakistan have shifted to Punjab. The greatest gift of your party has been to provide approx. USD 3 bln in textile investment over last 5 years to Punjab which could have come to Karachi. This has provided jobs and brought a new level of prosperity to Lahore. One visit to Lahore can show how well the city is doing and how much better it is run. Any major MNC that has come to Pakistan in the last 15 years has put offices in Lahore/Islamabad e.g. Pepsi, Nestle, Telenor, Honda, etc.

In my view this is by design because if Karachi develops than there will be no disconteted youth which is the reason of existance of your party. Its the anger of these young people that is your main support base and there will be no anger if there is peace and prosperity. Your agenda is not the agenda of this country.

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Take a good look at this picture. This is not a picture of a helpless Iraqi father, it is a picture of all Muslims around the globe who are currently being ruled by foreign puppets and a social class that survives by sucking blood from their veins. This social class is the custodian of foreign imperialist interests in their respective countries. This is a picture of Pakistani nation. Just like this helpless man, the gun totting fauji criminals, their civilian goons, and plaincloth thugs have also taken the whole nation as hostage, gaged them, and put a hood on their head. A common Pakistani is as disenfranchised as he never was before. He does not have a constitutency. He has been rendered a foreigner, a refugee, a prisoner in his own home by these criminals. A Pakistani- whose only crime is the accident of birth; of being born in a lawless land that is being ruled by ruthless criminals. Today, he is not even sure how long the comfort that he finds in his family and children would last. He has nothing to offer to his children, accept a corrupt, indecent, and frustrated life in a lawless society and land - a land which was once his.

With all due respect, I agree with you that every effort has been made on the part of the establishment and the feudal powers to diminsh Karachi`s importance and to transfer the center of the economy to Lahore and other Punjabi areas in the same way as the capital was transferred to a more safer location (ie, closer to the border than ever before).

Through the tyranncal and despotic rule during the Nawaz Sharif administeration in particular, money raised in Karachi was utilized to polish up, clean, and shine Lahore, and portray Karachi as a run down devastated area. Benazir Bhutto, the army, and mian Nawaz Sharif are the prime reasons for the past law and order problem in Karachi, and this view has been documented and endorsed by numerous human rights organizations including Amnesty International. Therefore, without having lived in Karachi, without having studied the problem, I would be carefull not to comment on political situations in other places in the fair interest of the arguement.

Let me unequivocally state that Karachi has been blessed as a port city and thus will never lose its importance, prestige, and vigor regardless of such propaganda. Ask any Karachiite, and ascertain how closely do they connect to their city as does anyone else from any other land. Karachi has always and continues to facilitate political, religious, and economic immigration and emmigration of refugees and those seeking a better future. It has given to others more than ever. It has played host to millions of muslim refugees from both the East (India, Bangladesh) and the West (Afghanistan to Bosnia), as well as from the North (from all portions of the nation). We are proud of our heritage, our culture, our openness, our liberalization, our proactivism, our pragmatic approach, and our strength.

There is not one city in Pakistan besides Karachi that can claim itself to be a miniPakistan. Your argument that the moving of mills and textiles, etc to Lahore and other parts of the country is valid to some degree. However, it would not serve any economic prudence if you were to avoid utilizing Karachi as a port. The advantages of a port city are numerous including access to shipping, localization of production, a conglomerate of skilled workmenship, and a relatively educated populace. A lot of the industries nonlocal to Punjab established and running there for the most part face elevated overheads both in terms of production, raw material transport, and delivery (remember all havey exports and imports have to channel through Karachi and Gwadar). Therefore, the Pakistani consumer, your business interests, and finally your pockets are hit if you selectively avoid Karachi.

I have a lot of friends from Lahore, and they are proud Lahorities as they should be. Your city is a city of culture, a city of history, and it deserves its due share as an integral part of this country.

Your comments are quite ambigous. First you say that ``In my view this is by design because if Karachi develops than there will be no disconteted youth which is the reason of existance of your party. Its the anger of these young people that is your main support base and there will be no anger if there is peace and prosperity.``

Karachi has been quite an active political and economic center since 1947. Even before 1986, it`s inhabitants were quite active politically under PPP, JI, etc. Demographics has a role to play in this as well. The ethnic makeup of this city is different and has a tendency towards activism. Therefore, to base the assumption that MQM`s base lies solely on disgruntled youth, let me ask you that if the army were to launch an operation and eliminate up to 25,000 people in Lahore, wouldn`t that make a lot of families and friends disgruntled? We are not the only people upon whom an army crackdown was launched. There are other examples such as in NWFP (which should be called pakhtoonkhwa) and in balochistan where the price of protest and demanding one`s rights have been rockets and bullets.

`` Your agenda is not the agenda of this country. `` Well said, the agenda of this country is not the agenda of the people, it is the agenda of the aristocracy, the establishment, the army, and the feudal rulers. The money generated by these transferred industries goes into the pockets of the rick chaudery`s and vadera`s, not to the average lahori resident.

Your comments exhibit an animosity and negative distraught over the courage and valor of the people of Karachi. I invite you to join our hands and bring prosperity to this great nation.

The jokers in the pack

By Ardeshir Cowasjee

Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz was duly freely and fairly elected as a member of the National Assembly on August 18 from two constituencies. The margin of victory in Tharparkar should have been somewhat of an embarrassment for him, as it was way out of realistic range, whereas in Attock his success was far more modest and possibly more claimable as a genuine triumph.

His choice of constituency may thus be explained. His election as prime minister in that most honourable of houses, the National Assembly, was competently stage-managed. The general chose well. Shaukat has been duly installed.

His electioneering in Attock cost the lives of three PPPP `activists`, law and order being a desired absentee. In the wilds of Sindh, despite the incredible margin, it was thought fit to harass members of the contesting PPPP. Aftab Shahban Mirani and Qaim `the Commuter` Ali Shah were both detained on several occasions whilst on the move in the area.

Nisar Khuhro was held near Mitthi for over two hours, Manzoor Wassan was arrested (no sympathy on that front) and six other MPAs were locked up in various police stations on the way to Mitthi. Sassu Palijo, that most active and vociferous MPA, was thrown out of a polling station in Diplo and then detained by an additional sessions judge of Tharparkar until the polling had ended.

This, of course, is meek and mild in comparison to how democrat of democrats Zulfikar Ali Bhutto of the then ruling PPP, now the much abused PPPP, dealt with his imagined opponents in the March 1977 elections which he would have won in any case. Why he was mad enough to decide to rig will never be known, but that was the beginning of his journey to the rope`s end. Qaim Ali Shah was active even in those days, busy printing ballot papers for his constituency at the government press at Khairpur.

In Zulfikar`s own constituency of Larkana he was opposed by Jan Mohammad Abbasi of the PNA, a completely harmless man with not a hope in heaven of winning, or even of getting anywhere near the Bhutto vote count. Abbasi arrived in Larkana on January 17 to obtain a certificate of enrolment as a voter. He was unable to do so as, apparently under orders, the district commissioner had sent the election officer off on leave to Sukkur. That same day, whilst Abbasi was sitting addressing a gathering of students he was summoned to the house of the superintendent of police.

On arrival, he was told that the SP had gone to Dokri. Abbasi was taken to Dokri by an armed escort and confined in the Seri Dak Bungalow with six other Jamaat-i-Islami leaders who were standing against Mumtaz Ali Bhutto. They were held there until the evening of January 19, and released after the expiry of the nomination period and the announcement of the unopposed return of the Bhuttos.

When Abbasi moved the Election Commission, affidavits prepared by dour-faced attorney-general Yahya Bakhtiar and Ghulam Ali Memon testified that Abbasi was very much in Larkana, free as a lark, on January 18.

So, we have made progress on one front over the past quarter of a century. The electioneering process has become more civilized. Fixing may still be a fixture in the national system, but confinement and abductions are things of the past - we hope.

Shaukat Aziz is a good man, a capable man. Now, in the polluted atmosphere of Pakistani politics and adrift in the sea of sycophancy surrounding him, he will need all his skills to keep his head and his balance. He has had an eventful professional life, constantly on the move, from post to post; he knows the world from west to east, from north to south.

Educated as he is, his priorities are right. Law and order he puts first on his list (which General Musharraf should have done five years ago). Shaukat is naturally geared to economic progress under which heading lies human development and all that this covers - education being its core, together with poverty alleviation which requires stringent population control, plus health care, sanitation and all public amenities due to the people.

Born in Karachi, 55 years ago, schooled initially at St Patrick`s, under the guidance of the good Fathers, Shaukat moved on to Abbotabad Public School, and then down to Rawalpindi where he graduated from Gordon College. Then back to Karachi, and to the Institute of Business Administration, where he was taught by my old friend Professor Adi Spencer.

Adi is the son of Lovji Spencer, a class mate of my father, Rustom. Lovji sent Adi to schools and colleges in which the teachers were highly educated and qualified - a prime essential lacking in our educational system. He was schooled at the BVS whose then principal was Dr Maneck Bejonji Pithawalla, D.Sc., followed by Behram Sohrab H. J. Rustomjee, B.T. Eng. Adi did his HSC in 1955 and then joined St Patrick`s College from where he graduated in 1959. Amongst others, his college teachers were Father Stephen Raymond, M.A. (Oxon) (Judge Edward Raymond`s son), Father Luperc Mascarenhas, M.A. (Oxon), his brother Oswin, also M.A. (Oxon), and the Dutch Father Elzyerus Bonke, PhD.

In 1959 he moved on to Karachi`s Institute of Public and Business Administration (as the IBA was then known), established by USAID helped by the United States Education Foundation, where at that time visiting professors from Wharton and USC taught and lectured. After graduating he worked for a while in his family business, then at the FNCB (as Citibank was then known) and in 1967 went back to teach at the IBA.

Shaukat Aziz was one of his star pupils, and under Adi`s guidance and instruction he was one of the young men head-hunted by the visiting Citibank officers keen on enrolling talent. Shaukat, an humble man, keeps in touch with Adi, still addressing him as `sir` (old habits de hard). When Adi once protested and suggested to Shaukat that he drop the old habit, he was politely told, ``I have always called you `sir` and will continue to so do.``

He now manages the finances of a vastly overpopulated country housing some 160 million, the large majority afflicted by poverty and a total lack of civic amenities, education and health care. He has limited funds at his disposal, the major portion being dedicated to the defence of the realm. Unless that fact undergoes a miraculous change he may not be as successful in his political career as in his private. Granted, when General Musharraf offered him the finance ministry in 1999, things on our economic front were grim and remained grim until 9/11 brought its sea-change.

Luckily for Pakistan, and for Shaukat, when the call came, Musharraf did the right and proper thing. Pakistan fulfilled the needs of the US, our men abroad considered their country to be a safe haven and funds flowed in. This time round, they had a competent and scrupulously honest manager so the money did not wander off course.

Given what is available on the ground, the president general has finally made the correct choice to fill the prime ministerial slot. But the political system under which he has chosen to operate demands that payoffs be made, that rewards be handed out, that blackmail be answered with bribes. Now Shaukat has the unenviable task of dealing with and shuffling a pack of cards - more than 52 of them, plus a full hand of jokers.

Yesterday Adi and I raised a jar to him, wishing him a safe journey.

I also join Cowasjee in wishing Mr. Aziz well. Good luck and safe journey Shaukat!

Shaukat Aziz is the best! This article is a waste of space (in my view).

Urstruly...you should put more thought into your posts. Your last post was absolute garbage based on your personal prejudices against the Pakistani people. You should refrain from posting such nonsense, unless you are wilfully trying to make your fellow Indians look bad. Such uncouth posts are neither conducive to dialogue and are likely to produce even more vitriolic responses.

I hope you will try to think through your writings before positings next time.

Much appreciated.

``Shaukat Aziz is a good man, a capable man. Now, in the polluted atmosphere of Pakistani politics and adrift in the sea of sycophancy surrounding him, he will need all his skills to keep his head and his balance.``(Ardsher Cowasji)

Indeed..... Shaukat is a good man and a capable man -- in fact an Olympian Swimmer in the the Sea of Sycophancy Surrounding his `Constitutional` Monarch Musharraf -- in fact he is the Prime Minister of Sycophancy -- here a glimpse:

``I am fully sure that whatever decision he (my Lord Musharraf) takes will be as per the Constitution as well as the law and in the interest of the country as well as the nation and we will back it,” he said.

He said there is nothing wrong in a General’s heading the country’s democratic system. In a parliamentary democracy, the holding of office of the President by the Army Chief is in accordance with the Constitution``.....

````I am fully sure that whatever decision he (my Lord Musharraf) takes will be as per the Constitution as well as the law and in the interest of the country as well as the nation and we will back it,” (Shaukat Aziz to BBC)

Is he ``fully sure`` -- that his Lord Musharruf`s decision to STEAL a civilian government at gunpoint -- was ``as per the Constitution as well as the LAW``.....

....Can Shaukat DARE say that......in public

......that he IS ``Fully Sure`` that a renegade insurrectionist soldier committed a treasonous act of overthrowing an elected governmehntn by force -- ``as per the Constitution as well as the law``

.......may be -- in the Constitutional Pimp Pirzada`s Book of -- Counterfeit Constitution -- but not ``as per`` Pakistan`s Real Constitution....

and to hell with that odious phrase ``interest of the country`` .....every genocidal fascist, rightist leftist communist and a Mongloid Invader of a foreign land -- has used that same crummy phrase -- in the name of National Interest....

In Pakistan .....each and every Army Dictator of the Past 57 years in Pakistan -- has committed the same Crime -- and used the same phrase -- in the ``National Interest`` -- to justify it -- and and then fell flat upon his belly as a stinking Failure.....with disastrous results......

every time an army man became the Savior of the country there was a war and there was a defeat -- so much so -- that more than half of the population and half of the real estate of the country was lost for good -- never to come back again -- for ever -- for nobody else`s fault -- but thanks to these Stupid Army Dictators in glittering uniforms strutting like Peacoks -- as the St. Saviors -- of the hapless and confused country....

......and then AGAIN comes another one -- (hopefully last of the Khatimul al Guidas) -- of the Army Messiahs -- P r e s i d e n t General Pervaz-e Musharraf....

now this time -- `unlike` the Regressive One ZIA.....this one -- is supposed to be the ``Progressive One``..........but who in reality comes with the same same worn out script -- same old stinking Snake Oil in a new Bushy Bottle.....in ``the interest of the country``........

apparently to save the country -- from itself....the upteenth time

......and `this` time my Pakistani intellectual friends -- AGAIN -- think that they -- shoorly have a Lotto Jackpot Winner......in Sheikh Sycophant -- Shaukat Chilli -- and his basket of Citi Bank eggs.....

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A request to posters - Please do not use the term `P*ki` in any future posts. It is a racial slur, and unless you unequivocally wish to racially abuse someone, please do not use it in your posts. (Note I havent ruled out `intent` altogether)

I trust we can show each other at least some respect. The forum moderators seem to have been caught napping (I assume?) - the use of such language should not be allowed, as it can, and probably already has, offended many people.

Lets try to be civilised shall we!

So SA has reached his zenith too soon bowing before the `black stone` and using his thecratic technocracy (Nimaze Istasqa) in Saudi Arabia where rain seldom falls, for making rain in Pakistan. What a joke this man, the choice of Tharparkar, has started playing with us!

#51 by nukecular

``This article is a waste of space``

You got that right! You are quite intelligent.

Ministers told to outline six priority objectives

ISLAMABAD, Sept 7: Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz has directed all federal ministers, ministers of state and federal secretaries to submit by Sept 11 their six-point priority goals along with their proposed implementation deadlines.

A senior official of the prime minister`s secretariat told Dawn on Tuesday that a letter had been sent to all the ministers and secretaries reminding them of the prime minister`s speech to the cabinet members last week in which he had told the ministers to work with full dedication and time bound targets for achieving results. They have also been asked to give their proposed strategies to implement these targets.

He said all the ministers and secretaries would submit their six-point agenda and their implementation time line which would be reviewed by the prime minister at a meeting next week. The ministers and secretaries would attend the meeting.

He said the agenda and their implementation strategies would be approved by the prime minister with modifications, if so required, and would be given quarterly deadlines to meet those targets. The quarterly meetings to be presided over by the prime minister would examine the implementation status and approve targets for the next quarter.

The official said that the purpose of the exercise was to minimize red-tapism in the functioning of the government, introduce good governance and make full and effective utilization of the public sector development programme for reducing poverty and increasing employment opportunities through broad-based development.

He said the government had already directed all the ministries and divisions to incur 25 per cent expenditure of the development budget by Sept 30, 2004, to ensure maximum budget utilization during the current fiscal year.

Furthermore, all the ministries and divisions have also been authorised to incur 40 per cent expenditure of their current budgets during the first half (July 1-Dec 31) of the current fiscal year, 2004-05.

The sources said the government had been under criticism for low utilization of development allocations during first two to three quarters of each fiscal year that later resulted in bulk releases in the fourth quarter. This practice compromised the quality of funding utilization.

The government has to face questions every now and then that there is no use for announcing higher allocations for the development budget when real utilization remains usually low due to deterioration of the implementation capacity both at the federal and provincial levels.

It has, therefore, been decided by the government to authorise the federal secretaries to utilize 25 per cent of the development budget in each quarter so as to ensure maximum utilization of public sector development programme (PSDP) every year.

The government has already empowered the federal secretaries/principal accounting officers to utilize up to 50 per cent and 45 per cent of the social sector and other development allocations without prior approval of the ministry of finance.

In 11 months of the last fiscal year, the total utilization had amounted to about 54 per cent of the total allocation but remaining 46 per cent funds were utilized in the month of June 2004.

Dear MQM Power. You seem to repeat the old argument that Karachi generates revenue that is used in other cities. This argument has been used by MQM for a very long time and has been used to feed the anger that exists in its cadre by saying that your money is being usurped by Punjabis. This argument is planily false. While it is true that a significant amount (maybe as high as 60%) of all federal taxes are collected in Karachi but that does not mean that they are paid by Karachities. If PSO sells oils all over the country and deposits its taxes on those profits in Karachi then it does not mean that those taxes have been paid by Karachi walas. They have been paid by people all over Pakistan who have consumed the products. Since all major companies are HQed in Karachi so they deposits their taxes here but they are earned by selling products all over the country and paid for by Pakistanis in all four provinces.

I agree with you that Karachi has the best human resource, (used to have) the best infrastructure and the only commercial port in the country. To go wrong after having so many natural advantages takes a lot of doing and has been only possible due to the policies persued by your party.

This is not a Lahore vs. Karachi deabte. This is to see what is good fot this nation. What is certainly not good for my country is to have a party rule its most promising city by fear and persue a policy of confrontation. Over the past few years your party has confrontation/issues with Army,establishment, feudals, sindhis, pathans, punjabis, Pakistan itself or whoever is the chosen opponent of the week. You need to mature as a party and be positive in outlook and not look for a favourite bogey of the week to beat up on.

#54 by nasah on September 8, 2004 8:23pm PT

``......and `this` time my Pakistani intellectual friends -- AGAIN -- think that they -- shoorly have a Lotto Jackpot Winner......in Sheikh Sycophant -- Shaukat Chilli -- and his basket of Citi Bank eggs.....``

Great stuff nasah saheb! Shaukat Chilli.......LOL!

``Pakistan, in the process of doing America`s bidding has jeopardized its very survival. As a result of unrestrained service to the US, we are facing insurgencies in two of our provinces; our top ``leadership`` is in the crosshairs of al-Qaeda assassins; our urban centers are being devastated by bomb blasts; frustration, sectarianism, despair and crime are rampant; and the state and society are unraveling at the seams.``

****Interesting analysis. If Aziz is openly such an agent of America, then it would be interesting to do a contrast analysis with Musharraf. Also, it shows alot about the deep influence America has acquired in Pakistan. Remember, the very raison detr of the exixtence of Pakistan , nay even its origin, lies in the Britain-US machinations. The greatest tragedy for the entire Indian subcontinent was that Jinnah - undoubtedly a very sensible man - became a stool pigeon for their longterm strategy of hamstringing resurgent India.
As a consequence - I use this deliberately - the current effects tabulated in your paragraph became inexorable. Unless Pakistan assembles the common sense, guts and strength to recharter the path for itself, I am afraid the implosion and discombobulation within Pakistan will reach higher crescendoes.****

``Now is high time to say to the Americans, enough is enough; we have done enough of your bidding: ``above and beyond the call of duty`` as a faithful ally. We need to draw a line, though we should have done it long time back; otherwise like a virtuoso blackmailer, the US will keep on raising the ante.``

****Beggers are not choosers.****

``At the same time we should renounce the use of religio-militant entities, as proxies to further our strategic interests, by creating mayhem and violence in neighboring countries. We should also eschew any delusions of empire-building in our neighbourhood.``

****Can you realistically, under any circumstance, begin to achieve any of this? If you could then the first step is to collaborate in making a strong Indian subcontinent.****

Re: #54

“Sheikh Sycophant -- Shaukat Chilli”

And these people have the audacity to think of themselves as intelligent! How can a thinking person take this seriously! These opinions belong in a trash can!!! My very point proven right!

I did not review the responses to the article before sending in my post #62. There seems to be a very widespread disillusionment among the Pakistanis about Pakistan. This is not surprising but should be reconciled at the earliest otherwise their is powder keg with lighted fuse, if this feeling is also present in Pakistan itself. Of course, it may just be the Pakistani diaspora that is confused and anti-Musharraf for some reason.

The most commonsense approach would be to recognize and declare the folly of the partition of India by Pakistan and the prudent course of action would be to proceed in a deliberate fashion to undo the folly. Of course, it can be done only if India wants to participate in it.

INDIANS MAY NOT WANT TO IMPORT TROUBLES FROM PAKISTAN.

But it is up to Pakistan to offer this.

Godot,
``I believe Shaukat Aziz may be the best thing that has happened to Pakistan in a long
time.``

Romair,
``Shaukut Aziz is the best thing that has happened to Pakistan in a long time.``

And I kept thinking that Musharraf was the best thing that happened to Pakistan in a
long time - or so were the claims on chowk. Has the ``best thing`` mantle been passed
on to Aziz now ?

What absolute garbage. Pakistan has a separate identity and the people are proud of their religion, culture and independence. The people of Pakistan would never, even for a second, consider becoming a part of India. Economic growth, for all its hyped up to be, comes with time and commitment. An independent State to practice what you believe in, without fear of persecution, unfortunately, does not come that easily. Just ask the people of Palestine & Israel, Chechniya and Jammu and Kashmir.

Inquirer`s post illustrates, in my view, quite well the fundamental lack of security the Indian Government has managed to instill in some Indians. Anti-Pakistani propaganda, from some Hindu Indians (whom I assume are nationalists), has become so commonplace that it is hardly even worth mentioning.

There can be no doubt that the present Pakistani government is finally bringing Pakistan back on the road to economic prosperity. Note this is not to say (Nikki) that democracy is flourishing, but its certainly better than what the people of Pakistan have had over most of the last decade of the previous century. I strongly feel that critics of the current government are either politically motivated or insincere in their aspirations for the Pakistani people.

On the other hand, I can fully understand why some Indians feel a hightened sense of insecurity in the aftermath of September 11. No one wants a superpower, and in particular the might US of A, to side with the so called enemy. But again if you consider that America`s only interest in the region, from a political standpoint, is to neutralise the threat of terrorism emanating from this part of the world, the issue of Pakistan getting Israel type status is non-existent. In this case, any worries India may have with the current situation are not well founded at all. In fact, due to the lack of intellect in Islamabad, the government hasnt even been able to `milk the cow properly` in the current situation, but that in itself is another debate.

There are also some significant arguments to suggest that almost all anti-Pakistani propaganda is carried out by Hindu nationalists, who dont necessarily have the best interests of India at heart.

For starters, India itself gets nothing from an economically weak Pakistan. Pakistan`s military strength has been and will remain a priority for all governments, regardless of whether the economy is thriving or not. One could argue whether or not this is indeed the best long term strategy, but perhaps it is worth remembering that before a country can prosper, it must learn to survive. The current hostile relationship between India and Pakistan demands that both countries are militarily equipped to deal with any potential threats.

If India`s claims of Pakistan`s support of the Kashmiri insurgents are to be believed, it should also be remembered that an economically weak Pakistan would be devastating to peace in the region. With nukecular weapons in mass production on both sides of the border, neither country would benefit from any sort of conflict (which would inevitably break out into a nukecular war). Of course, its is also common knowledge that, under certain circumstances, poverty and a lack of education breeds religious extremism.

I think both governments and its people have a responsibility. The Indians need to take note of the delicate situation, and find a strategy to tackle it. Anti-Pakistani propaganda serves absolutely no useful purpose, in my view, as it simply alienates discussion and adds fuel to an already raging fire of hate.

Let`s all try to be a little more sensitive in our posts. Crude, unsophisticated remarks refect badly on you, your countrymen and your country (Im referring to everyone here btw). I hope my advice will carry at least some weight.

Rgds

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#66 by plats8

Reading Chowk, not really sure exactly what made you think “that Musharraf was the best thing that happened to Pakistan in a long time.” Musharraf is probably the most maligned individual at Chowk. At Chowk, in the name of ``democracy`` in Pakistan, the corrupt and the incompetent sinners have now become saints, forgetting that one of those “saints” was, just like “Shaukat Chilli”, a creation of another Islamist dictator far worse than Musharraf. Such is the world of Chowk, a place overflowing with intellectual incisiveness and moral uprightness.

Musharraf, his dictatorship notwithstanding, is a very sensible man. He’s smart enough to pick a very capable man in Shaukat Aziz as pm.

Arjun - Ill give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didnt get a chance to read my previous post. Well, for your convenience, Ive copied and pasted it below.



#58 by nukecular on September 8, 2004 8:23pm PT
A request to posters - Please do not use the term `P*ki` in any future posts. It is a racial slur, and unless you unequivocally wish to racially abuse someone, please do not use it in your posts. (Note I havent ruled out `intent` altogether)

I trust we can show each other at least some respect. The forum moderators seem to have been caught napping (I assume?) - the use of such language should not be allowed, as it can, and probably already has, offended many people.

Lets try to be civilised shall we!



Now back to your post:

So at least you agree that Pakistanis are proud of their religion and independence - well, its a start. Indian and Pakistani cultures are quite similar, so, to a foreigner, one is normally meant to imply the other. For example, a restaurant known as Lahore Balti House, is referred to as being Indian, when strictly speaking it is Pakistani.

The main reason for the widespread use of term `Indian cuisine` is simply because India`s been around for a lot longer, so people are more familiar with the term. And besides, no matter what you call it, its still the same kind of food. I dont see how you can be proud of something like that.

Yoga, outsourcing? Arent we lumping things together here? Outsourcing isn`t a culture, neither is yoga...but to your credit, both are positives and associated with India. I don`t see how this is relevant to my original post though. Anyway...

Pakistanis watch both Indian and Pakistani movies. Besides both industries strive on the bulk of the poor and lower middle class population escaping their rather petty and meaningless existence for a few hours. But, again, the Indian film industry has become somewhat synonymous to India`s presence in the world as a force to be reckoned with. Full credit there!

The tribal areas are harbouring foreign infiltrators, essentially being disloyal to the State of Pakistan. They are free to practise their beliefs, but not free to harbour terrorists. Its somewhat of a geographical issue too, so I dont want to get into that too much.

As far as Kashmir is concerned, I know for a fact that the Pakistani people support the freedom fighters in occupied Kashmir, the same way we support Chechyan fighters and the Palestinians. I am not in a position to comment on whether there is any cross border infiltration, but I believe my government when they say there isnt. I imagine you believe your government, which is only fair. And no I dont think the IA hijacking was carried out by RAW.

`How ironic..Pakis keep saying India should hand over Kashmir because India is poor and it needs to focus on poverty...yet when the largest number of Islamic terrorists come from the jihadis factories of binori, Pakis blame it on poverty and lack of education..`

Ill remind you of your use of language here. Pakistan never asked India to hand over Kashmir because India was poor. Kashmir is India`s only muslim state, which should have been declared a part of Pakistan at the time of the partition. It`s a matter of principle, my friend, not a matter of economics.

I think you`ve proved my point about poverty and lack of education breeding religious extremists There are exceptions, e.g. Mohammad Atta and the lot, but on the whole, the correlation is significantly positive.

Could I ask why you seem to dislike Pakistanis so much? If you could give me specific, rather than generic reasons, it would be much appreciated. Do you think its fair to hold such bitter hatred for 160 or so million people you have never even met? If you dont want to discuss this in public, Im happy to send you my email address.

Rgds

Arjun - Ill give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didnt get a chance to read my previous post. Well, for your convenience, Ive copied and pasted it below.

---

#58 by nukecular on September 8, 2004 8:23pm PT
A request to posters - Please do not use the term `P*ki` in any future posts. It is a racial slur, and unless you unequivocally wish to racially abuse someone, please do not use it in your posts. (Note I havent ruled out `intent` altogether)

I trust we can show each other at least some respect. The forum moderators seem to have been caught napping (I assume?) - the use of such language should not be allowed, as it can, and probably already has, offended many people.

Lets try to be civilised shall we!

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Now back to your post:

So at least you agree that Pakistanis are proud of their religion and independence - well, its a start. Indian and Pakistani cultures are quite similar, so, to a foreigner, one is normally meant to imply the other. For example, a restaurant known as Lahore Balti House, is referred to as being Indian, when strictly speaking it is Pakistani.

The main reason for the widespread use of term `Indian cuisine` is simply because India`s been around for a lot longer, so people are more familiar with the term. And besides, no matter what you call it, its still the same kind of food. I dont see how you can be proud of something like that.

Yoga, outsourcing? Arent we lumping things together here? Outsourcing isn`t a culture, neither is yoga...but to your credit, both are positives and associated with India. I don`t see how this is relevant to my original post though. Anyway...

Pakistanis watch both Indian and Pakistani movies. Besides both industries strive on the bulk of the poor and lower middle class population escaping their rather petty and meaningless existence for a few hours. But, again, the Indian film industry has become somewhat synonymous to India`s presence in the world as a force to be reckoned with. Full credit there!

The tribal areas are harbouring foreign infiltrators, essentially being disloyal to the State of Pakistan. They are free to practise their beliefs, but not free to harbour terrorists. Its somewhat of a geographical issue too, so I dont want to get into that too much.

As far as Kashmir is concerned, I know for a fact that the Pakistani people support the freedom fighters in occupied Kashmir, the same way we support Chechyan fighters and the Palestinians. I am not in a position to comment on whether there is any cross border infiltration, but I believe my government when they say there isnt. I imagine you believe your government, which is only fair. And no I dont think the IA hijacking was carried out by RAW.

`How ironic..Pakis keep saying India should hand over Kashmir because India is poor and it needs to focus on poverty...yet when the largest number of Islamic terrorists come from the jihadis factories of binori, Pakis blame it on poverty and lack of education..`

Ill remind you of your use of language here. Pakistan never asked India to hand over Kashmir because India was poor. Kashmir is India`s only muslim state, which should have been declared a part of Pakistan at the time of the partition. It`s a matter of principle, my friend, not a matter of economics.

I think you`ve proved my point about poverty and lack of education breeding religious extremists There are exceptions, e.g. Mohammad Atta and the lot, but on the whole, the correlation is significantly positive.

Could I ask why you seem to dislike Pakistanis so much? If you could give me specific, rather than generic reasons, it would be much appreciated. Do you think its fair to hold such bitter hatred for 160 or so million people you have never even met? If you dont want to discuss this in public, Im happy to send you my email address.

Rgds

Arjun - Ill give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didnt get a chance to read my previous post. Well, for your convenience, Ive copied and pasted it below.

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#58 by nukecular on September 8, 2004 8:23pm PT
A request to posters - Please do not use the term `P*ki` in any future posts. It is a racial slur, and unless you unequivocally wish to racially abuse someone, please do not use it in your posts. (Note I havent ruled out `intent` altogether)

I trust we can show each other at least some respect. The forum moderators seem to have been caught napping (I assume?) - the use of such language should not be allowed, as it can, and probably already has, offended many people.

Lets try to be civilised shall we!

---

Now back to your post:

So at least you agree that Pakistanis are proud of their religion and independence - well, its a start. Indian and Pakistani cultures are quite similar, so, to a foreigner, one is normally meant to imply the other. For example, a restaurant known as Lahore Balti House, is referred to as being Indian, when strictly speaking it is Pakistani.

The main reason for the widespread use of term `Indian cuisine` is simply because India`s been around for a lot longer, so people are more familiar with the term. And besides, no matter what you call it, its still the same kind of food. I dont see how you can be proud of something like that.

Yoga, outsourcing? Arent we lumping things together here? Outsourcing isn`t a culture, neither is yoga...but to your credit, both are positives and associated with India. I don`t see how this is relevant to my original post though. Anyway...

Pakistanis watch both Indian and Pakistani movies. Besides both industries strive on the bulk of the poor and lower middle class population escaping their rather petty and meaningless existence for a few hours. But, again, the Indian film industry has become somewhat synonymous to India`s presence in the world as a force to be reckoned with. Full credit there!

The tribal areas are harbouring foreign infiltrators, essentially being disloyal to the State of Pakistan. They are free to practise their beliefs, but not free to harbour terrorists. Its somewhat of a geographical issue too, so I dont want to get into that too much.

As far as Kashmir is concerned, I know for a fact that the Pakistani people support the freedom fighters in occupied Kashmir, the same way we support Chechyan fighters and the Palestinians. I am not in a position to comment on whether there is any cross border infiltration, but I believe my government when they say there isnt. I imagine you believe your government, which is only fair. And no I dont think the IA hijacking was carried out by RAW.

`How ironic..Pakis keep saying India should hand over Kashmir because India is poor and it needs to focus on poverty...yet when the largest number of Islamic terrorists come from the jihadis factories of binori, Pakis blame it on poverty and lack of education..`

Ill remind you of your use of language here. Pakistan never asked India to hand over Kashmir because India was poor. Kashmir is India`s o