Culture Wars

Re: # 29

``....he calls for a worldwide peace movement to deal with the current dangerously volatile standoff between the political Christian Right and militant political Islam.``

I am yet to read the entire thread of the narration carefully before I can comment on how did he arrive at the above potentially dangerous suggestion which clearly tows the line of OBL. But the thread seems to follow the usual line of pointing fingers at others (Imperialists, Stalinists to Maoists) who have used political violence in order to shout us into acceptance of their violent actions!!

And if he is suggesting that we re-interpret of all the violence around as requiring some sort of religious rapproachment between various religious communities is to exactly follow OBL`s ``Historical Spiritualism``. Without getting into the `source` or original inspiration behind all the technology of the violent weapons (which is irrelevant), let us not forget that 9/11 was an action designed to resusticate the hitherto forgotten imagery of violent religious jehad for attaining temporal power.

It was in a sense an attempt to re-invent fascism and legitimatize the use of forgotten religious metaphors for theocratic expansionism. As Khomeni has so succinctly mooted his spiritual right to rule the state of Russia in his letter to Gorbahov :

``In conclusion, I declare outright that the Islamic Republic of Iran as the greatest and most powerful base of the Islamic world can easily fill the vacuum of religious faith in your society. ``

If this is not neo-fascism then I fail to understand what it is???

hamidm2

`There are good muslims but there is no such thing as good Islam`

In Pakistan at least even good muslims are becoming scarer now. There are only `Halfia Constitutional` muslims found in Pakistan which are not found elsewhere. A colleague and friend of mine who is a globe trotter told me once that any good man he met all over the world was found to be either a jew or an Ahmadi and the most hated people in the world are the `Halfia` muslims.

Vertex

I can show you that Islam is a fascist and totalitarian religion, whether the US was at war in Iraq or foolishly and ignorantly pumping Billions of dollars into the geen bag of Mard-e-Momin Zia-Ul-Haq.

I will continue pointing out to everyone that Islam a fascist and totalitarian (and am ready to explain to you why if you would care to listen) way of thinking and living, irrespective of what the US does.


You show no such integrity. You `know` that the current battle is not a crusade, yet `prefer` to call it a crusade, self-confessedly, for the deliberate purpose of arousing the violent passions of other Muslims who may not `know` the truth as well as you do.

That, dear vertex, is deliberate lying with the clear intent to deceive.

Ralph,

No, I still think this conflict is more or less about the imperialistic ambitions of a super power. People like you want to make it about religion, and so invoke dark and emotionally charged terminology like totalitarianism and fascism and all that. It is people like you who are aptly labeled ``Crusaders``, since you share pretty much the same mentality.

vertex #38

You claim that this is not a religious conflict, but then freely paint everything in sight in darkly religious, emotion-charged terms.

Not every Muslim can be expected to be so adept at dancing between the arguments, or at playing with people`s reasons and their emotions. Do you feel at all guilty or dishonest?

37,

``Inappropriate, deliberate, and repeated invocations of `crusades` are deliberate attempts to cast goepolitical conflicts in religious light, and to gather emotional support from Muslims who would otherwise rationally not support their `Islamic brothers and sisters.` ``

LOL, Yes. As I said, it is a clumsy way of mobilizing support among a similarly affected people. It is an inaccurate diagnosis of the problem, however going by the symptoms alone it is undeniable. When a people face the exact same threat, why the hell shouldn`t they call a spade a spade? Now, in this case the mistakenly call a spade a shovel, but that`s just a matter of semantics.

``Few Muslims seem to be able to debate and discuss these conflictual issues without invoking the spectre of Christian `crusades` against Muslims. That includes people at such relatively enlightened fora as chowk.``

Blah blah blah. Like I said, contemporary use of the word `crusades` is just a buzzword for colonial and post-colonial conflicts in the Muslim world by Western forces. No, this is not a religious conflict. This is a conflict is due to the imperialistic ambitions of a world power. The target, however, are members of the same religious group. Further, the conflcit is egged on by a heavy dose of ideology...so in that sense, these are a Crusade of sorts. Not a Christian one...but a Crusade nonetheless.


``Others will be unwise to forget the bloody history they have faced, but in their day-to-day living, Hindus, Christians, and others seek to move beyond the past. ``

Duh, we`re not talking about history here. I`m talking about the stuff your going to see on CNN today. Newsflash: there`s a war going on in Iraq, and the stated reasons are to bring about a change in the entire Arab/Islamic world. To put it mildly.

vertex #36

There is a less charitable view.

Inappropriate, deliberate, and repeated invocations of `crusades` are deliberate attempts to cast goepolitical conflicts in religious light, and to gather emotional support from Muslims who would otherwise rationally not support their `Islamic brothers and sisters.`

The difference between the average Muslims` use of these words and others` use of historical references is that for many Muslims religio-historical inventions act as ubiquitous concepts encompassing their entire existence. Few Muslims seem to be able to debate and discuss these conflictual issues without invoking the spectre of Christian `crusades` against Muslims. That includes people at such relatively englightened fora as chowk.

Others will be unwise to forget the bloody history they have faced, but in their day-to-day living, Hindus, Christians, and others seek to move beyond the past.

Ralph,

``I wonder what the basis of this statement is.``

Read my message again: one is an archaic term coined for a current group of people to describe their actions, the others invoke actual historical events to implicate their country folk through a guild-by-association. Not the same...

-digit #28

``The way Muslim`s invoke Crusader now days is not the same way as Hindus invoke the Arab or Turkic invaders (as you are in fact doing). ``

I wonder what the basis of this statement is.

hassansiddiqi #31

How about bombing of Shia doctors in Karachi, attacks on people praying in mosques, and churches?

What kind of political disputes do you suggest be settled for eliminating these bombings and attacks on innocent `faithfuls?`

Thanks in anticipations.

Hassan Al Siddiqi says
I think if the American government had focused more on solving political disputes rather than bombing Iraq, it would have had a much better chance on winning its war on terrorism.
1. Give Palestinians their rightful homeland
2. Give Kashmiris the right to vote and decide their fate
3. Give Sudanese people the support they need to prevent genocide
4. Give Iraq back to its people

Intereting, however, why should the americans involve themselves so deeply in Sudan and Kashmir? Kashmir is better off being dealt with the two major parties (india and pakistan) - frankly based on america`s track record - we would be better off if they kept their noses out of this one.

And as for sudan, america is proposing sanctions. Sanctions!!! can you believe it. sanctions on a country that has just sufferred so much, surely there is a better way of dealing with a problem then imposing embargoes that would further cripple the country`s already ailing economy.

The arab world should play a larger part, instead they sit quietly like tamed dogs watching from a distance. its a shame the biggest concern for a genocide is coming from the west while muslims stay quiet as a whole.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

There is no question about the fact that suicide bombings, Iraq bombings and the Kashmir violence are largely a result of political problems as opposed to cultural or religious reasons.

I think if the American government had focused more on solving political disputes rather than bombing Iraq, it would have had a much better chance on winning its war on terrorism.

1. Give Palestinians their rightful homeland
2. Give Kashmiris the right to vote and decide their fate
3. Give Sudanese people the support they need to prevent genocide
4. Give Iraq back to its people

These are all political messes that need to be cleaned up. Get them cleaned up and you have half of your problems solved!

eh?? 28 is mine...

Worth reading:
very interesting insights.

and then there are the drooling-dogs of the west , tales a-wagging, yelping in orgasmic ecstacy: `` O master! how am I doin```.
These are the so-called lead-dogs from Pakistan, Afghanistan, Saudi & Khaleej, Egypt, Tunis, Morroco, Palestine, Iraq [and perhaps many more] : India & China , with a sizable muslim population are not among these. This the naa-pakis, the baighairats, MUST bear in mind.

Letter to Gorbachev : From Ayatullah Khomeini [1989]

---

In the Name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful
Your Excellency Mr. Gorbachev,

Chairman of the Presidium of the

Union of Soviet Socialist Republics

With due wishes for the happiness and prosperity of Your Excellency and the people of the Soviet Union.

Since your assumption of office there has been the impression that Your Excellency, in analyzing world political events, particularly those pertaining to the Soviet Union, have found yourself in a new era of reassessment, change and confrontation; and your boldness and initiative in dealing with the realities of the world is quite likely to bring about changes that would result in upsetting the equations of power dominating the world. I have therefore found it necessary to bring certain matters to your attention.

Even if your new approach and decisions are merely used as a means to overcome the party crisis, and to solve some of the problems confronting your people, your courage in reappraising a school of thought that has for decades enchained the revolutionary youth of the world behind its iron curtain is indeed worthy of praise. If, however, you are considering taking a further step forward, the first thing that will ensure your success is that you reevaluate your predecessors’ policy of obliterating God and religion from society, a policy that has no doubt given the heaviest blow to the Soviet people. Rest assured that this is the only way whereby world problems can be dealt with realistically.

Of course it is possible that as a result of wrong economic policies of former communist authorities, the Western world, an illusory heaven, will appear to be fascinating; but the truth lies elsewhere. If you hope, at this juncture, to cut the economic Gordian knots of socialism and communism by appealing to the center of Western capitalism, you will, far from remedying any ill of your society, commit a mistake which those to come will have to erase. For, if Marxism has come to a deadlock in its social and economic policies, capitalism has also bogged down, in this as well as in other respects though in a different form.

Mr. Gorbachev,

Reality must be faced. The main problem confronting your country is not one of private ownership, freedom and economy; your problem is the absence of true faith in God, the very problem that has dragged, or will drag, the West to vulgarism and an impasse. Your main problem is the prolonged and futile war you have waged against God, the source of existence and creation.

Mr. Gorbachev,

It is clear to everybody that from now on communism will only have to be found in the museums of world political history, for Marxism cannot meet any of the real needs of mankind. Marxism is a materialistic ideology and materialism cannot bring humanity out of the crisis caused by a lack of belief in spirituality—the prime affliction of the human society in the East and the West alike.

Mr. Gorbachev,

You may have not in theory turned your back on certain aspects of Marxism—and may continue to profess your heartfelt loyalty to it in interviews—but you know that, in practice, the reality is not so. The leader of China struck the first blow to communism and you have struck the second and, apparently, final blow. Today we have no such thing as communism in the world. I earnestly call on you, however, not to get trapped, while tearing down the walls of Marxist illusions, in the prison of the West and the Great Satan. I hope you will attain the honor of removing the decayed layers of 70-year communist aberration from the face of history and of your country. Today those allies of yours that are genuinely concerned about their homelands and people are no longer willing to sacrifice their subterranean and surface resources to keep alive the myth of the success of communism—an ideology whose din of collapse has already reached the ears of their children.

Mr. Gorbachev,

When after 70 years the call, “Allah is Great” and the testimony to the prophethood of the Seal of the Prophets, Muh#ammad (peace be upon him and his posterity) were heard from the minarets of the mosques in some of your Republics, all the followers of the pure Muh#ammadan Islam were moved to tears out of ecstasy. Therefore, I have found it necessary to remind you to reflect once again on the materialistic and theistic worldviews. Materialists consider sense to be the sole criterion of knowledge and are of the opinion that whatever cannot be known through the senses falls outside the realm of knowledge. They identify existence with matter and consider as nonexistent anything that has no material body. Inevitably, they regard the world of the unseen—God Almighty, Divine Revelation, Prophethood, and the Resurrection—as mere fiction. On the other hand, theists consider both sense and reason to be the criteria of knowledge, and maintain that whatever can be known through reason lies within the realm of knowledge, although it is not perceptible. To theists, therefore, existence is inclusive of both the unseen and the manifest. For a thing to exist it is not necessary to have a material body. In the same way that a material thing depends on an incorporeal thing, sensory perception is dependent on rational perception.

The Holy Qur’an reprobates the fundamentals of materialistic thought and, addressing those who say: “We shall never believe in thee until we see God manifestly,” proclaims: “Vision comprehends Him not, and He comprehends all vision; and He is the Knower of subtleties, the Aware.” I should not like to present here Qur’anic arguments concerning Divine Revelation, Prophethood and the Resurrection which from your point of view are debatable. In fact, I do not wish to entangle you in the twists and turns of philosophical arguments, particularly those of Islamic philosophy. I will content myself by presenting one or two simple, intuitive examples of which even politicians can avail themselves.

It is self-evident that matter, whatever its nature, has no awareness of self. Consider a stone statue: each side is ignorant of the other side, whereas human beings and animals, we clearly observe, are aware of their surroundings. They know where they are and are aware of what goes on around them. There must be, then, an element in men and animals that transcends matter and is separate from it, living beyond the life of matter. Intrinsically, man seeks to attain absolute perfection. He strives, as you well know, for absolute power over the world; he is not attached to any power that is defective. If he has the entire world at his command, he naturally feels inclined to have command of another world once he is informed of its existence. No matter how learned a person may be if he learns of some other branch of knowledge, he naturally feels inclined to attain mastery of that branch of knowledge as well. Therefore, there must be some Absolute Power and Absolute Knowledge to which man is attached. It is God we all seek although we may not be aware of it. Man strives to attain Absolute Truth, so that he may be annihilated in God. Basically, the desire for eternal life that is inherent in every individual is proof of the existence of an Eternal World to which destruction cannot find its way.

Should Your Excellency desire further information on these matters, you may command those scholars of yours who are well-versed in this field to study, in addition to the works of Western philosophers, the writings of Peripatetic philosophers, al-Fārābī and Avicenna, peace be upon them. It will then become clear that the law of causation on which all knowledge depends is a rational, not sensible law. Likewise, perception of general laws and concepts on which all reasoning rests is reached not by means of sensory experience but through rational argument. Your scholars may further refer to the Ishrāqī theosophy of Suhrawardī, and explain to you that the flesh, as well as any other material thing, is in need of Pure Light which has no material entity, that man’s witnessing of his own truth does not take place by means of any sense organ. You may also have the scholars familiarize themselves with Transcendental philosophy of Mullā S!adrā (may Allah be pleased with him and resurrect him with the prophets and the pious), so that it may become clear that the nature of knowledge is different from the nature of matter and that intellect, far removed from matter, cannot be restricted by the laws governing matter.

I won’t tire you further by mentioning the works of mystics, in particular Muh#yī’d-Dīn ibn al-‘Arabī. If you wish to make yourself acquainted with the doctrines of this celebrated mystic, send a number of your brilliant scholars, who are well-versed in this field, to Qum so that, by reliance on God, they may, after a couple of years, glimpse the depth of the delicate stages of gnosis, which will be impossible for them to acquire without making such a journey.

Mr. Gorbachev,

After mentioning these problems and preliminary points, let me call on you to study Islam earnestly, not because Islam and the Muslims may need you but because Islam has exalted universal values which can bring comfort and salvation to all nations and remove the basic problems of mankind. A true understanding of Islam may forever release you from the problem of Afghanistan and other similar involvements. We treat Muslims of the world as Muslims of our own country and will ever share in their destiny.

By granting certain liberties to some of your Republics in matters pertaining to religious practices, you have shown that you no longer consider religion as the “opium of the people.” Indeed, how can Islam be the opium of the people—the religion that has made Iranians as firm as a mountain against superpowers? Is the religion that seeks the administration of justice in the world and man’s freedom from material and spiritual shackles, the opium of the people? Only that religion is the opium of the people that causes the material and spiritual resources of Islamic and non-Islamic countries to pass into the clutches of super- and lesser powers and that preaches that religion is separate from politics. This, however, cannot be called a true religion; it is what our people call “an American religion.”

In conclusion, I declare outright that the Islamic Republic of Iran as the greatest and most powerful base of the Islamic world can easily fill the vacuum of religious faith in your society. In any case, our country, as in the past, honors good neighborhood and bilateral relations.

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance.

Rūh#ullāh al-Mūsawī al-Khomeinī

67/10/11 AHS

[January 1, 1989]

BruceLee,

You know what? I am not talking about events from ancient history. I am talking about events that had their origins in the past decade. No one is blabbing on about the Crusades. It is sufficient to point out that the neo-con mentality is (rather crudely perhaps) referred to as a `Crusader` mentality.

But you are correct. Closet fascists and people planning genocide do like to take history and spin a story around it to mobilize against a defined threat which is otherwise...well..boring. Just look at how Hindus react to Muslim invaders (who may have been brutal - perhaps no more brutal than the slaving Hindu Raja`s - but they were - like the Raja`s - also responsible for developing a functioning society). The way Muslim`s invoke Crusader now days is not the same way as Hindus invoke the Arab or Turkic invaders (as you are in fact doing).