Mute Goat Dilemma

plse check this site and enjoy yrself
http://64.33.59.128/cgi/ayashi/world.html

Re: # 32
No, that url will be obsoleted soon. The new one is http://www.frottophilia.com/forum/ and http://www.frottophilia.com/quit/

A CONCRETE CULTURE-APPROPRIATE PROPOSAL

one thing i learned in the us is that if its an issue, get training. e.g. most work-places in us go thru sexual harrassment training. you are shown videos, plays etc of situations of what is sexual harrassment, what is not acceptable and so on.

so i propose that the jammat in pakistan (and in india) should hold classes on gaze-lowering. folks should get trained in a catwalk-type situation with women (and men) in various dresses from scanty to shuttlcock parade, and the trainees pratice gaze-lowering.

personally, i always always dip my high-beam when i see approaching headlights.

:-)

On a lighter note, here`s a joke.

Two guys whispering to each other pass by two girls standing at the bus stop.

Girl 1 gets curious and asks Girl 2, ``When guys talk, what do they usually talk about?`` Girl 2 says, ``What else? They talk the same things that we talk about``. Girl 1 is shocked and exclaims, ``Sh!t!!!! I never thought guys were so vulgar!!!``.

Three responses:

Kewlfi,

Hats off to you for not backing down and toughing it out with the harassers. The more we speak up, the more other women will see that they can do it too, and who knows, maybe, just maybe, we`ll get enough women out and visible for our presence to be a given.

SharkO,

Given the current Arab/Muslim image, I can understand why you`d expect Muslim countries to be more `dangerous` places for women. That is not, in fact, the case. While Saudi Arabia does actively enforce its ridiculously restrictive laws regarding women`s movement outside their homes, places like the UAE, Qatar, Oman, Egypt, etc. do not. I do not know what their specific laws are, but I do know that women`s movement is not generally restricted, and it is not uncommon to see people in all manner of dress, from ultra-conservative/traditional to what is generally termed `Western` garb walking around without being harassed.

Muslim countries do not automatically oppress women. A large number do, but then again, many other countries manage to oppress women without the aid of Islam. We need to understand that this oppression is more socio-political than religious, but I suppose that`s a whole other discussion.

and ladies,

AGAIN, while Samina is right in saying that posture and confidence are deterrents, I urge you to check the website I mentioned earlier for a no-nonsense approach to both harassment and the techniques that supposedly `deal` with it.

Pakistani women are disgraceful...enough said. they deserved to be harrassed...

Ok Let me take a step back here as I haven`t lived much in either Pakistan or India and stories of lecherous pervs are common enough now that we should accept there is some truth to them. Kewlfi here claims that women are safer in Arab countries dressed in jeans and shirts than in North India which I find surprising as I assumed that islamic countries by nature are more censurious.

So while to some extent I can understand the misogeny in Pakistan I don`t get why India suffers from it? Is it something embedded in the culture?

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Mehreen,

Good article. While one can ignore the stares, comments, etc, certain transgressions need to be addressed. There are slimeballs on the NYC subways as well...and usually embarrassing them works-exclaiming if the perp would keep his hands to himself, etc. The compass idea is brilliant.

But then, some of it is how we carry ourselves when we walk. Apparently potential attackers avoid women who walk with their heads up and shoulders back. The more no nonsense you look, the less vulnerable you seem. A martial arts class helps too! ;)

``We certainly haven’t heard of Adam-teasing, have we?``

You should try stepping outside Pakistan and experience the real world. I can personally think of at least three cases offhand where a girl has grabbed a guy`s crotch either under a table at a bar, or in a club while dancing.

I`m not saying there isn`t a problem in Pakistan but you women need to get off your high horse and stop giving the impression it`s all one-sided - and trust me that`s how it reads.

First of all Mehreen, I would like to offer you support and sympathy. I too have faced similar situations in India on a continuous basis, like any other Indian woman. I have lived in many Indian cities and the situation is bad, extremely bad in North India, quite bad in East India, simply bad in South India, not so bad in Bombay.

I have also worked and travelled across the world and believe me what we face in the Indian Subcontinent is absolutely terrible. I have not been to Saudi or Iran, but travelled extensively in North Africa as well as Southern Europe (Italy and Greece) and I have never faced anything like it. What sets subcontinental men apart is the hatred and misogyny that I feel Its not just the the touching and groping, which I have never seen anywhere else, but also the feeling that women deserve the humiliation because they are getting too big for thier boots in general. Note the post from Nikki.Nukeclear. Thing is the occasional whistle in other country is crude but good humored, yes we can tell. Can you imagine what would happen if I gave a friendly smile at a eve teaser in India who sang it me or whistled at me. They would NOT smile , they would get more vicious. Obviously it is not about fun or flirting, its a deliberate desire to humiliate and intimidate and feel powerful. I assume that the Muttawwa in saudi are their true spiritual brothers. the mass of Subcontinental men have a problem with treating a woman as a normal human being, with basic dignity and respect. No not all men are like that, my husband is an angel, but I got lucky. Most men get pissed off when they see or hear a confident woman, or just some one who has the guts to complain in public forum. JUST LOOK AT THE LETTERS ON CHOWK IN REPLY TO THIS ARTICLE> one would think all chowkies would agree that women have a tough time with eve teasing and deserve better, but that is not the case. And these are the educated folks with net access!!!

Think about the number of posts that have aready been written criticising the article or its views. Complain. We will complain as Fucking much as as we want to, as long as we have to put up with their shitty behavior. Ask your mum how she feels when she walks down a crowded street-and tell her to stop complaining. fact is , this behavior is faced across the board by all women under 50, regardless of dress and behavior.

Interestingly, I spent many years in calcutta, and Calcuttans believe that their city is civilised. But even there I have seen the same behavior, but what is interesting is that Ina bus when I would yell at someone, I never got any support if I wore jeans or even Salwar kamiz. But I could be quite confident that in a sari my yelling would have the desired effect of getting some support. I believe that the random bus passenger believes that if a woman wears a salwar kamiz she deserves it. If a sari, not so much, but I got harrassed in a sari as much as in jeans or salwar kamiz.

The worst experiences for me are when I meet firan travellers who say that they have been to india. I just shrink into myself, ecause women travellers go through hell in North India. I KNOW it is the worst place in the world fora woman to travel, especially Delhi and North India. Recently some one I know went on a business trip to bangalore and she said she was surprised she was not harrassd because her sister who travelled in North India told her horror stories. Even in most Arab counries if you are normally dressed, i.e jeans and shirt you are very safe. This was almost a shocking discovery for me. My family were and are still horrified that I did so much travelling across the Middle East and they can`t believe that I felt safer in Cairo, Beirut, Casablanca, Tunis, Dubai than I ever did in Delhi or even new York after dark for that matter.

And yelling back very often does not help. It encourages the culprit, passers by do not stop. And by the way are the anti female Chowk writers aware of the great subcontinental elbow trick? Ask your mum or your sister, they will tell you assuming you do not do it yourself.

And finally, Chowk is a place where we vent our feelings about our respective countries. I am sure both Indians and Pakistanis love their countries and feel defensive when a foreigner atacks it. So we should not reduce every article critical of situations in India / pakistan into debate about whether hindus are better than muslims, India better than Pakistan and vice versa. In our hearts we all know the truth , eh?

Re:nukecular and nikki

How would you like it if your mother, sister or other women in your family suffer eve teasing? Of course, then you will pick up arms and try to kill the guys who attempt such stuff. If it is someone else`s family, then it is okay? Shame on you!!

All straight men do not do such things. In fact, no real man stoops to the level of insulting and hurting women. It is one thing to be attracted to someone and asking them out in a decent way. It is another thing to grope and molest them in public places. It is only immature perverts who have no capability of actually talking to a woman and having a relationship, that stoop to such tactics. Indulging in such acts DOES NOT mean paying attention. It means criminal behavior which should be punished severely.

Well said Nikki. No doubt there`s a problem in insular countries like Pakistan but for f**ks sake give it a rest.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

What are womens views on Italian men, specially if they have travelled to Italy ??? Do the men there do `flirting` or is it `eve teasing` or is it just that they are being `charming` and `friendly???

AND it`s not just the `blue collar` majority, either. Try crossing Jail Road or any other main street on foot, morning, afternoon, or night--all those idiots in their shiny cars will speed up and screech to a stop inches from you and then call out all manner of rubbish. One of my friends got slapped across the face by a guy in a pickup while we were standing outside college waiting for the bus.

As for it happening all over the world, it doesn, certainly. But I will add that there is a difference. In New York, at 14, you can get quite an education passing by a construction site, but graphic as what they yell out is, you can laugh it off even if it does gross you out. Here, all the majority does is stare or mutter, but it carries so much more malice. I can`t explain it any better than that, I`m afraid. It may have to do with the idea that your being outside the home here is still not necessarily perceived as a right, while no one will think to question that in NY, no matter what they yell out.