Musharraf: Excerpts from an Interview in NYT

#179 Inquirer

The idea is that we are (at least attempting be) ``democratic secular`` and not another Iran, Saudi or Libya. Why should we measure ourselves by the lowest denominator?

#173, hidvi:

``Inquirer no doubt pakistan contributes to the problem``

But do they condemn the Pakistani atrocities????

Instead when concerned1 (#169) points to them the day in and day out equalities, they ignore him!

Not worthwhile seeing the truth!

Yes, these ``they`` are Indian Muslims.

hindvi,

[...i will ignore your insults...]

surely you are reading someone else`s posts rather than mine. first you see `insinuations about your patriotism` and now `insults`...maybe you can explain where both of these occur in my two posts to you. (inquirer, that is what i meant by `comprehension`)

i don`t know why you are telling episodes about kalam/his loyalties, etc...my simple point is that for a muslim to be prime minister he would have to have a general image/personality/actions built over a period of time, that appeal to a majority of indians. can you tell who that person could be amongst the muslim politicians available today?

[...And I thought we were talking about, prime ministers, defence, home and finance ministers, where did businesmen and filmstars come in?...]

so unless we have a muslim prime minister, defence minister, home minister and finance minister (more than once, and for more than 11 months mind you, otherwise it won`t count), the tolerance of hindus is just a figment of imagination. right? at least that seems to be the impression from your comment that prompted me to interact with you (...Indian muslims have been given ceremonial positions in indian govt but there has never been a single muslim home, finance or defence minister leave alone prime minister, so much for tolerance...)


[...if you are implying the state of a community...etc...]

there is plenty of material available on the net for the reasons behind the general state of muslim community in india...you are free to subscribe to any of the thoughts...i know india is a favorite punching bag for many. let me finish by asking - what explains the dismal situation of indian muslims in, say, UK? surely intolerant hindus/rss/bjp are not oppressing the hapless muslims there. are the brits responsible for that?

Dost mittar i admire your positive hopefulness, but it is difficult for me to imagine a muslim PM. Just 2 or 3 years ago my cousin was looking for a room in noida to rent. it proved very tough, as soon as he would reveal his name otherwise available houses would become unavailable. he was considering taking it under an asumed name or asking a hindu friend for help. in polling in western UP districts, with which i am familiar, you should see how closely its done on caste and community lines, in Jat dominated areas its impossible for any one else to win, there laths do the talking. the rise of mayawati has been important in breaking the upper caste hegemony in some areas but in the jat dominated districts, she chickens out too. the muslims who stand are Jat converts themself like Shahnawaz Rana.

Subcontinental society has always been prejudiced irrespective of the country, but there has been a qualitatively different radicalisation since the eighties. Under these circumstances i would be satisfied with even a cabinet minister. Fareed Zakaria, the former editor of foreign affairs, current editor of newsweek international who is the son of a former union minister in indira gandhi`s govt. Dr rafiq zakaria, stated a few years back that after a nehruvian honeymoon india has returned to its authentic roots.

thats why he married an american lady after getting his harvard Phd in international affairs, those who are in the know believe he will be the US`s first Asian/muslim Secretary of state, lets see whether your dog catcher thesis comes true (even though muslims in america are only 2 %).

#175, dost-mittar:
WHAT DO YOU THINK A NON-SUNNI CAN BE IN ALL MUSLIM COUNTRIES EXCEPT IRAN WHERE WHAT CAN A NON-SHIA BE????????????????????

Stop apologizing to hindvi.

hindvi:
You may be right. Tibbia College might merely be a large college and not a university.
On the other topic, I think that you sell India and hindus short by saying that a muslim cannot become a prime minister. I remember that last year, a friend who knows Manmohan Singh said that he could never become PM because he is a sikh.
However, for a muslim to become prime minister, he will have to be acceptable to hindus, including those who vote for the BJP. This does not mean that he would have to quote Geeta or hang Sarswati paintings but he would have to be someone for whom India comes before his religion, someone like the late M.C. Chagla, a protege of Jinnah.
But I agree that a in-your-face muslim does not have a high chance of becoming a prime minister of India; btw he wouldn`t have much chance of being elected as a dog-catcher in the USA either.

Inquirer

i will preserve this post for future references.


``The more you give the more they demand!!! Being President of India is not enough!!! They require as proof of secularism, the Delhi Sultanate!!!!!

They never acknowledge the qualitatively better treatment they get compared to what they give in Pakistan to Hindus.

Where was their loyalty?!!!!!!!!!!!!! ``

So for you the pakistani and indian muslims are the same? wow!

take care Sarsanghchalak.

Concerned
I will ignore your insults and i would urge you to look at the issues objectively. I am not saying Kalam is not loyal but my father has served under Kalam i am not talking through my hat, he purposely used to invite journalists into his house for interviews to show them his sitar and saraswati paintings, he was known for his political savvy with which ever party was in power. how many heads of the DRDO or principle scientific advisers to the prime minister do you know who do that?

i am not saying he is not patriotic Infact my father on behalf of Kalam was approached by a gulf state for help, they said to my father ask him to name his price. my father laughed the suggestion away. i am sure Kalam himself must have been approached himself. But keep in mind perception is not always reality.

And I thought we were talking about, prime ministers, defence, home and finance ministers, where did businesmen and filmstars come in? if you are implying the state of a community dont look at individuals (as journalists in india say muslims are over represented in the three professions films, underworld and prostitution) pick up the income distribution figures from the census or those of Govt. representation.

If the excuse is lack of educational attainments in muslims dont look at class I officers i.e. IPS/ IAS, there is anyway little bias there as I have said below. just look at the constabulary or clerical staff. these dont require graduate degrees. I have been in small mofussil towns in UP and seen how recruitment is done in RPF, PAC etc.

#169, concerned1: Totally agree with you except the comprehension part.

The more you give the more they demand!!! Being President of India is not enough!!! They require as proof of secularism, the Delhi Sultanate!!!!!

They never acknowledge the qualitatively better treatment they get compared to what they give in Pakistan to Hindus.

Where was their loyalty?!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Inquirer no doubt pakistan contributes to the problem, but Pakistan existed before the 1980s too and india was chugging along and neither can we physically control pakistan.

these are complex processes to do with the rise of the RamJamambhoomi movement, the BJPs reaping this for electoral profits, spread of sangh schools, economic competition for resources, development/modernisation associated search for identity, urbanisation associated alienation due to breaking of old village ties, decay of the old Indian /congress culture and values in an increasingly materealistic society. Asish nandy, sunil Khilnani, dipankar gupta gyanendra pandey, mushirul hasan, sugata bose have all written about this.

dost mittar I tnink you mean the new Jamia hamdard university in Tughlakabad, which was earlier only a college, its original location musta have ben tibia college. Jamia Milia University in Okhla has been in existence as a college since 1920s and a central university since the 50s.

hindvi,

[...insinuation about my patriotism ...]

your english compreshension skills must be better than mine...

and v p `mandal` singh was the most progressive pm since nehru?

[...but one swallow does not a summer make...]

yeah, i know. every successful muslim is just a token muslim and/or an exception. whether it is chief ministers, governors, cabinet minsiters, government posts, businessmen, professionals, actors..all tokens/exceptions to fool the world about `hindu tolerance`. your remarks on kalam are also on expected lines.

hindvi:
I was referring to the new Jamia Milia University (unless I am getting the name wrong!).

#161, Dost-Mittar and all others:
Neither Hindus can nor Muslims should - both in India and Pakistan - ignore the goings-on in Pakiatan.
Indian secularism is not some theoretical thing; it is fully impacted and crafted by Indo-Pakistani interactions.

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Dear Jang

The days of antulay are long gone, even then Antulay was an exception, I dont know of another muslim chief misister outside kashmir. even in those days antulay used to cleverly use his his last name I never knew AR stood for abdul rehman until much later.

i am not as knowledgeable about the vernacular schools in bombay, so i am unable to comment, though I did attend Dune`s institute at Lions gate from LKG to 2nd grade. that Bombay is gone though I nver felt like I was a muslim. In delhi i attended a services school.

muslims are reluctant to study at saraswati mandir`s and Shivaji schools (shivaji being another symbol Hijacked by the saffron brigade despite the fact that he was no communalist) because they are in a minority they fear being swamped which they are in day to day life as Farzana points out, if their numbers had been substantial say 50, 40 or even 30% they might not have, just like the hindus and sikhs in united Punjab. Also there is the issue of things like Vande matram, a very moving song but its context has to be seen, things are more complex than they seem, its writer also wrote a play called anandmath a terribly communal piece of litreature, in which the hindu hero butchers all the muslims and then when he is about to turn on the british he is told to stop by the author (in the voice of his master) since the enemy is dead and from the british we can learn something so his time has not come. This is apart from the idolatory in the song.