Train from Pakistan, 2004: The Return

For Veeresh`s eyes only

Now ordinarily I would have dismissed this article as rubbish by another ABCD.... but after the nonsense that you have been putting up I have given this another read... and needless to say I have formed lasting impressions about your city...


Only in India

http://www.naseeb.com/naseebvibes/humor-detail.php?aid=2055&pg=1


This particular paragraph must really interest you....


For a country with a burgeoning population, I noticed was the absence of women everywhere. On the plane, in the market, in the airport – there were hordes and hordes of men, but not a single mahila to be found. Consequently, I became the object of much curious and licentious staring, which one found unpleasant at first and then just got used to. Best way to deal with staring men is to stare right back. It intimidates them to see women who are not scared by their leering.



Like the boy in the sixth sense said ``We see what we want to see``...

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Veeresh,

Boring, prejudiced and poorly written piece...

If u are representing India on this site, please don`t, you give the country a bad name :(

Not that the lady needs anyone to defend her. Abuse her, curse her but as far as I can remember Sadna has never condoned any kind of killing of innocents. She was one of most outspoken critics of Modi in the interacts that followed the Gujrat killings. But if you disagree with her feel free to do so without the filthy language. Chowk staff if you are not aware ``Sandas`` is the Marathi word for ``shit``. Neither did I expect such level of interacts from HP.

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From Jawahara`s Allahabad board - I think this is about the truest statement about the war of words at The Chowk , pertaining to our cities in India and Pakistan lately.


#7 by temporal on October 27, 2004 1:32pm PT
``````HP: you write Pakistan is a poor country and a lot can be done in Pakistani cities for cleanliness and civic amenities, but the amount of neglect you see for some basic civic amenities in Indian cities is absolutely horrendous. Compared to Indian cities, Pakistani cities are a model for civic amenities. ``````

````sir, i have done fair bit of traveling in both countries...i disagree with your assertion...population growth in both countries has not kept pace with infrastructure development...there are some enclaves and localities within cities that are cleaner and more organized in both countries...but the bigger picture is one of decay and irresponsibility...both government and individual... rgds, t ````

HP sahib, why you lie? Show where Sadna say killing baby good.

HP sahib, lying not good. Lying to win argument is very poor judgement.

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AlephNull #368
Agreed. However, it appears the figures out there are problematic.

In India, circulation of newspapers(dailies and periodicals) is supposed to be 142 million for 2003, daily circulation 58 million. Readership - daily newpaper readership 155 million and total readership 180 million(42% of literate adults, 26% of all adults ) in 2002.

http://rni.nic.in/
http://www.flonnet.com/fl1914/19140810.htm

The readership and circulation are consistent. Even if we say there is 15% misreporting in circulation/inaccuracy in readership, readership and circulation are still consistent.


In Pakistan a Gallup Pakistan poll says readership corresponds to literacy rate 45%. It says on a given day, 30% read a newspaper and 51% of those readers buy the newspaper.

http://www.internews.net.pk/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=34
http://www.pakboi.gov.pk/PDF/circulation_newspapers_by%20languagetype.pdf

Do they mean 30% of total population, 30% of population above 15 or 30% of literate adults?

If they mean 30% of population above 15(90 million), which seems most likely, then the problem is, newspaper readership is 27 million and newpaper purchases are at least 0.3*0.5*90 = 13.5 million purchases which is much more than total reported circulation - approx 6 million (daily), 8 million (daily + periodicals). The readership and circulation numbers are not consistent.

So one of the reports, either the Gallup report or the government report is wrong. Readership is harder to measure accurately IMO.

Ref salim #364

[13. As a pacifier to the fanatic right-wing in Pakistan, Veeres announced the appointment of Maulan Nikki as Commisioner for Morality. The Mullahs are going to celebrate this victory with a mela by bathing in the Ravi river.]

Mullahs? Bathing? Is that possible at all? Don`t you guys have to live your lives the way Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) lived his? Are there rivers in Saudi Arabia in which the Prophet (PBUH) could have bathed? Is there any prood that the Prophet (PBUH) ever bathed? Isn`t bathing in rivers en masse a Hindu custom anyway?

[18. To encourage a greater understanding of each others` religions, Veeresh has assembled a panel of experts in religion. The great Pakistani expert on the Hindu faith, Ali from CA, will present lectures at the Punjab University, located in Benares, UP (Yes, Utter Pradish is right, this time!). Conversely, Ralph and AlephNull, both graduated from the University of Deoband, will be coming out of the closet to confess how they converted to Islam.]

Sigh.... How often do you want to tell us that ``coming out of the closet`` and ``converting to Islam`` quickly follow each other? We already know.

TALL BUILDINGS

Gazi Musharaff has promised a building taller than the PetroNas tower (keeping up the glorious tradition of Memet II and Shahjehan, and Mahateer i think) during his visit for US assembly and pakistani NRPs were very impressed and murmured much inshallahs.

So, indus, read and weep while you keep building your stupid non-descript Sulabh Mutris and charge Rs 1.00 per bowel movement.

sadna #366

Newspaper readership may perhaps be a more informative metric than newspaper circulation. I know that in some places in South India a single copy of a newspaper at a tea stall (or equivalent) may be read by a couple of dozen people in the course of a day. Something very similar might well happen in Pakistan, at least with Urdu newspapers.

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#359 by omar_r_quraishi
Omar,

You are wasting your time with a complete lunatic.
This lunatic cannot think of anything beyond hate and supports baby killings, Modi and mass murderers of Gujarat. Seeing a shrink is not enough, this lunatic needs to be locked in an asylum for deranged and keys should be thrown away.

The school kids stupidity. One stupid Indian wrote it another lunatic believes it.

You should also read this lunatic’s post #353, where this lunatic is suggesting that all tall buildings in Pakistan be demolished to prove Veeresh wrong!

Until this lunatic is sent to the asylum, this lunatic would continue to flap her curtains. By responding to this lunatic you are just giving creditability to a mentally disturbed person.

AlephNull #361
Perhaps that is the connection. That implies the price of a newspaper is higher because circulation is lower instead of the reverse. Wonder if that is entirely the reason for higher prices because I think someone mentioned other newsprint products like notebooks are also priced higher.

btw, I may be very mistaken but I think Pakistan had nationwide?/urban? TV transmission 15-20 years before India, that could be a factor(or not). In India, it has been reported that the advent of TV and cable TV news has not(so far) reduced newspaper circulation, in fact the reverse.

Anyway, if no one talks about it, hopefully the ratio will go up from 9 to 10, 11 or 12, that will serve these freaks right( though I wouldn`t wish it on their beleagured compatriots).

sadna #336, bongdongs #337, and

omar_r_quraishi #359

{{as for the other `facts` in your post -- given that pakistan`s population is 140 million, and that india`s is 1.078 billion, i think the ratio comes to 7.7 which is quite close to 8}}

Well, the country profile provided by the GoP`s Board of Investment gives a population figure of 150,694,740 (July 2003 est.). At a population growth rate in the vicinity of 2% that puts us over 154 million today. For a ratio of 8 one would have to have an Indian population of 1232 million today. Now China does have an estimated population of 1298 million as of July 2004 but India isn`t there yet and won`t be for a couple of decades. If you use the CIA World Factbook July 2004 estimates the population ratio works out to about 6.7.

The ratio of total newspaper circulation figures for India and Pakistan, the PPP GDP ratios, and the literate population ratios, are all in the vicinity of 9, but that may be pure happenstance and obviously cannot be sustained beyond a point.

omarjee
Your posts are on this board for everyone to read. My posts were all addressed to Indians, until you like your uncouth friends, yourself brought up the `sadnas` wily nily. You Pakis are pathological liars, this is proved day after day.

hamidm
//.... what bothers me more are the idiots on our own side of the border wo are bent upon screwing up a perfectly good place in the name of religion and tradition...//

I hear you, my friend! May be, if you can fix this ``religion and tradition`` thing in pakistan [ and that`s a biiiigggg if ] ... you pakis could do some good stuff over there.

But who is going to fix the la-la land otherwise called India? With a neutered jack-a$$ as the PM, Laloos stomping the land, commies out in hordes to scuttle all progress ... all hope is lost, my friend. This is the begining of the end!

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Omar-jee said ``given that pakistan`s population is 140 million, and that india`s is 1.078 billion, i think the ratio comes to 7.7 which is quite close to 8 -- in any case --``

Please see my post #336

``Population (CIA factbook, mid-year 2004 estimates)
Pakistan: 159,196,336
India: 1,065,070,607``

shri sadna jee -- kindly dont give me lectures on the role of newspapers -- im quite aware of their role in a society like pakistan`s or india`s -- i see u have this habit of bringing in new irrelevant things once your initial argument has been thoroughly demolished

---

u said that india has more newspapers and a much higher circulation and that this would mean better quality, which it clearly doesnt -- it might mean better quantity but better quality is a subjective issue --

as for the other `facts` in your post -- given that pakistan`s population is 140 million, and that india`s is 1.078 billion, i think the ratio comes to 7.7 which is quite close to 8 -- in any case -- since u r not an economist and i couldnt be bothered to explain to an avowed pakistan-hater, please ask someone else why the costs in pakistan are higher -- but given that they are higher that might explain the higher price of newspapers -- in any case my point was to disprove the despicable delhi bear (DDB henceforth) when he said that newspaper/media salaries were low in pakistan, much lower than in india -- they are lower than for other professional jobs within pakistan but compared to the indian print media they are higher -- unlike u and your cohorts which would make this a my-country-is-hence-better-than-your-country issue, i am doing no such thing but only saying that perhaps one reason for this could be that the cost of living is higher --

sadna again: ``btw, that is precisely veeresh`s point - in #240 he also pointed out how he did not see the early morning rush of school children and no one has refuted that yet. ``

err -- shri sadna jee i think anyone with even an ounce of brain left in them would have realized that interacting with the bear is futile -- anyone who believes his drivel would do so at his or her own risk -- in other words its something not worth refuting since (i HOPE) most people have better things to do than to refute a deluded liar -- of course inveterate paki haters such yourself will believe such things even if the DDB didnt say them --


sadna again (ad nauseum):

``Fourthly, as an Indian I DON`T care if prices are disproportionately higher and newspaper circulation is disproportionately lower in Pakistan, certainly I don`t care enough to be arguing uncouth Pakis about it. So you go right ahead, tell each other it is because of cost of living and be happy.``

BUT U JUST DID THAT DIDNT U -- moral of the story for you shri sadna jee: actions speak louder than words -- dont post such inane irrelevant things since, as you said yourself, u couldnt care less

shrimati sadna jee : ``And from viewpoint of policymakers, newspapers are institutions for empowerment of citizens, just like schools - saying that we are forced to have fewer newspapers with higher price is like saying we are forced have fewer schools of higher fees - a wholly self-serving argument for the elitist/feudalist priorities of a nation which has been getting huge foreign aid and debt relief for many years of its existence and always claims to be doing better than India.``

hahaha -- esp the last line -- u need to see a shrink sadna jee -- u need professional help --its amazing how u put words when none were uttered or see connections when none were made -- who said that having higher priced newspapers is a good thing or tried to justify them -- i hope u do know that there is a clear distinction between someone explaining something and someone justifying them -- perhaps your paki hating eyes r so blinkered by the hate that u possible cannot see the difference

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Veeresh most sailors tend to find the red-light areas as their first port-of-call. So as an ex seaman (no pun intended) were you curious to find and compare this aspect too?

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PS: to 346
The point being that when Indians see a picture big and beautiful building built by the gormint, they are quite likely to think `very pretty, very nice, someone made a packet of public money on this`.

So, don`t look now, but by posting pictures of big and beautiful structures built at Pakistani taxpayer expense you are not challenging, you are supporting veeresh`s contention about elitism/feudalism in Pakistani society.

I noticed that during various discussions especially when it included Mr.Veeresh,the comparison between indian and pakistani vehicles was made especially concerning Ashok leyland and hinopak buses. I wish to clarify certain points. Ashok Leyland as from the year 1999 started manufacturing a HINO Engine model no: WO6E (euro 1) under licence from Hino Japan to be fitted in its buses. I will not go into details for the reasons it did so. The WO6E engine has an output of 118 PS max at 2400RPM. Where as: Hinopak is a direct afiliate of Hino Japan and since 1998, Hino Japan owns the majority of shares in that company. Hinopak buses are made on the popular AK Chassis and incorporate Hino Engines of HO7D model which give an output of 190PS max at 2900RPM. The HO7D Engine is also used in Hino AK buses from Malaysia and Indonesia but has nothing to do with Ashok Leyland Hino Engines which are less powerful and features some differences in design. So please do not make comparisons between these two, if you need further details, ill provide u. I also wish to say that Indian vehicle manufacturers produce a much larger no of units and at a cheaper prices than pakistani manufacturers. BUT pakistani vehicles have a much better finishing and quality than indian vehicles. During my stay in pakistan for my studies I was very impressed by hinopak coaches/buses where as in my country where I travel in ashok leyland coach every day, it makes quite a big difference, especially in terms of speed. Believe me!!!

Please take note: I noticed that during various discussions especially when it included Mr.Veeresh,the comparison between indian and pakistani vehicles was made especially concerning Ashok leyland and hinopak buses. I wish to clarify certain points. Ashok Leyland as from the year 1999 started manufacturing a HINO Engine model no: WO6E (euro 1) under licence from Hino Japan to be fitted in its buses. I will not go into details for the reasons it did so. The WO6E engine has an output of 118 PS max at 2400RPM. Where as: Hinopak is a direct afiliate of Hino Japan and since 1998, Hino Japan owns the majority of shares in that company. Hinopak buses are made on the popular AK Chassis and incorporate Hino Engines of HO7D model which give an output of 190PS max at 2900RPM. The HO7D Engine is also used in Hino AK buses from Malaysia and Indonesia but has nothing to do with Ashok Leyland Hino Engines which are less powerful and features some differences in design. So please do not make comparisons between these two, if you need further details, ill provide u. I also wish to say that Indian vehicle manufacturers produce a much larger no of units and at a cheaper prices than pakistani manufacturers. BUT pakistani vehicles have a much better finishing and quality than indian vehicles. During my stay in pakistan for my studies. So plz do not make useless comparisons, If it is a true fact that India is far better than pak in IT that does not mean it would be better elsewhere

mohar mian ,

..... i would have stayed away from this thread but the comment about chemists in pindi was such a blatant lie that i just had to jump into the muck .......... and the fact that vereesh thinks pindi is better than lahore is kind of ridiculous when people who have lived in pindi all their lives are the first to admit that it is a sleepy little village compared to lahore ........

........... in any case you can call me anything you want .... you can call me al and i can call you betty ..............to be honest i only have a passing interest in india and couldn`t care less what goes on in tamilland or gujjustan - what bothers me more are the idiots on our own side of the border wo are bent upon screwing up a perfectly good place in the name of religion and tradition ..........

So there we have it now.

Lahore, no, wait, all of Pakistan, is full of donation boxes for ``chanda`` and Orphan Annie is well-fed as well as virtuous while walking around Lahore RS in revealing clothes with full liberty.

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huh? # 340 ought to have shown up before # 339.

Understandably, Chowk staff too appears to have lost its marbles.....

manto
//...I personally tore down the anti-India/Anti-Hindu Banner... //

You did? Thanks Man! That`s some brave act, isn`t it?

So what did the jihadis do - when you were out there tearing down their life`s work and livelihood? Did they just sit there, AK-47 in hand, twiddling their thumbs? Or did they offer some refreshments for all your troubles.?

Sell your snake-oil somewhere else Manto!! We are all stocked up here :))))

btw, there will always be a paucity of Big and Beautiful buildings/structures built with tax-payer money in India.

In India, politicians are as eager to spend public money on building Big and Beautiful things as anywhere else - all over the world it is politicians` way to keep their friends happy to give them nice big building contracts. However, unless the said politicians in India are exceptionally strong or exceptionally corrupt, they are liable to be thrown out of office for wasting taxpayer money if the thing becomes too Big or too Beautiful right under the suffering public`s eye. One can see lots and lots of foundation stones now lying hidden under bushes which were dedicated by hopeful politicians to big and beautiful things `which might have been`.

#340 by Ralph

Yeah - hamidm is alright. I just having a little fun at his expense, that`s all :) You don`t mind that - do you, Hamid Mian???

Tahmed

Post#319

Twice you have used smilie sign in that post...So what shall I say..:)

Anyway, I have neither interpreted what Veeresh has said nor have I explained or said, what Veeresh meant in those posts. I have merely quoted what he has written. And have also asked a question indirectly on the basis of what you have written. That is all, Sir.

Btw it is/was not about defending Veeresh. If the need arise, he himself is quite capable of doing that much better. It was about what you have said, about what he has written..:)

Anyway......

Salim

Post#294

Quote:

`` Khoob faida utha rahe hen aap log Ramzan ke mahine ka. Enjoy while there are a few more weeks and my sharafat knows no bounds. But come Eid, you will all be singing a different tune. It will be a real bhaloo dance - except that the hunters will be taking turns doing ``touch their toes`` exercises as the bhaloo punishes each and every one for misbehaving all month long. Keep up the nonsense and you will need those multiple recti, not just for the vegetarian samosas. ``

Mian, is Ramzan se pehle agar aapnay koi pahaar khoday hain, ya nadeeyon ke bahav badal diye hain kay jo aap hum logon ko some sharafat kee kahani soon-a rahein hain aur darane kee koshish kar rahein hain? Crude translation: Prior to Ramzan, have you been moving mountains, changing the flow of rivers that you are trying to threaten/scare us now, and expect from us to bow down? :)

As to khoob fayada ootha rahein hain, bilkul, beshak! Aap bhee or aap kay saathi log bhee tau yahee kar rahein hain. Meaning, Sure, I/we are taking advantage all the way but you, and some others like you too are doing the same. However, big difference is, what kind of advantage?

Some like me take advantage of the internet and of forum like this by trying to learn new things, add on to learning, and sharing as well. In contrast, some like yourself, take advantage of the internet by coming with lame excuse in the name of Ramzan and at the same time threat/s, in the name of EID. And some others are taking advantage (khoob faida utha rahein hain, as you have written) by calling names to others. So, faida tau Sahib, sabhee ootha rahein hain lekin, faiday faiday mein kaafee furk hai..crude translation:Sure, everyone is taking advantage but there is difference in the kind of advantage .

Khair, aap khush rahein, aapkay jaan-ne wale, chah-ne wale bhee khush rahein...Be happy, and wish the same for your known ones and loved ones..

abe tahmed

stop calling me named like balanced. look here, use of perspective in realistic painting was the result of artists learning reason-based stuff like math. byzentines were doing it when they got overwhelmed by turks. now, i am not saying that islam caused downfall of that part of the world for next 400 years, salim is. he claims all the nice things in constantinople are islamic achievments. had he said they were turki that would be different, but that is a fight you take with salim, not with me. my contention is that byzoos were doing just fine, and would have produced great things without the turki hordes. if halaku was bad for baghdad and fall of islamic greatness, why not the same logic here?

but you ummaites are so eager to jump the gun..why defend the ottos so much? mughals i understand, since lahore was mughal capital an all (not).

A delightful show. The only downer is that it may end soon.

Chowk staff, you need to return this article to the top of the list. Hamidm2 ji, my favorite wise man, should write more, and brother Mohar11 oughtn`t get so mad at him :)

The extent to which these Pakis go to defend Paki jihadis is amazing(actually not).

Omarjee #329
Those are Paki govt`s own figures:
http://www.pakboi.gov.pk/PDF/circulation_newspapers_by%20languagetype.pdf

Your argument `salary is higher, so price is higher, so circulation is less` for all employees/prices of all 168-odd daily newspapers in Pakistan and 1500-odd daily newspapers in India which constitute those total circulation figures, is meaningless. I don`t know why I expected you to catch on to this looking at the figures.

And why ARE the costs of living so different? It is puzzling that Pakistanis choose to go without newspapers of all things when we are told they are doing better than Indians in every economic indicator.

And from viewpoint of policymakers, newspapers are institutions for empowerment of citizens, just like schools - saying that we are forced to have fewer newspapers with higher price is like saying we are forced have fewer schools of higher fees - a wholly self-serving argument for the elitist/feudalist priorities of a nation which has been getting huge foreign aid and debt relief for many years of its existence and always claims to be doing better than India.

(btw, that is precisely veeresh`s point - in #240 he also pointed out how he did not see the early morning rush of school children and no one has refuted that yet. However deficient India is in providing basic education and India has been very deficient, the morning sight of school children heading to school is a common one in Indian towns/cities however small or big.)


Secondly, the disproportion is more than 7:1(the population ratio is not 8:1), in number of newspapers and in circulation particularly if one looks at regional languages. One example is the huge disproportion between Indian J&K and Pakistan, with Pakistan having the same literacy rate, 15 times more population had only 5 times the total circulation in Indian J&K, even two-three years into `freedom struggle`/militancy in 1992(#146). If the reason is that costs of living were much higher in Pakistan, then the analogy that Pakistan `liberating` J&K is like the Taliban `liberating` Pakistan is true not only on the newspaper circulation count but also on the cost of living count.

Thirdly I think jihadi publications are being left out of the figures.

Fourthly, as an Indian I DON`T care if prices are disproportionately higher and newspaper circulation is disproportionately lower in Pakistan, certainly I don`t care enough to be arguing uncouth Pakis about it. So you go right ahead, tell each other it is because of cost of living and be happy.

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HP

Haven`t read more than 90% of the interacts here, so this may be unfair to you, but I will say this anyway. Some of your postings twoard the end were quite off color, not at all HPesque (In style and content they were closer to the nonsense I write).

All the same, on behalf of all silent spectators from around the globe, thank you everyone. And thank you, Hamidm2 ji, for your assiduous score-keeping :)

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Population (CIA factbook, mid-year 2004 estimates)

Pakistan: 159,196,336
India: 1,065,070,607

Salim,

Ref: 297

since your return, aap apni posts or I-logs mai kaafi sharafaat aur wazadari dikhaa rahain hain .... i hope the same spirit rubs on to others ....

#318 by hamidm2

I hate to say this - but, I told you so :) You know - there was a reason why Jinnah didn`t want to live with horrible hindoos. This is what banias do to you, if you are not careful. They will come to your house, eat your food, tip your servant heavily and then scre@ you royally.

But looks like the big-tipping bania has rammed hot-rods really deep into collective paki backsides. I mean - ``pakis of all hues and colors have come together`` to sh!t all over the place??? When did that happen last time [ I mean, pakis ``coming together`` to do anything, sh!ting included] Never, I think. Not even a t war times - considering pakis lost all 4 wars they fought with banias.

I mean - one bania and a thousand paki closet-jihadis ... and yet the score is pretty much even.

The difference between Dost Mittar and Veereshji...

Unlike Veeresh, who is a wannabe elitist fart, Dost Mittar is a genuine student of culture, world heritage and society. Though he had left the Pakistan area some time before partition, ending up in East Punjab as a refugee... as a student of history and experience he doesn`t hold a grudge against me... if anything he takes me like his own son... despite the clash of identities....

Also Dost Mittar knows how to speak, read and write Urdu... now how does that matter... well consider this...

I went looking for the `Jehad boxes` today... and after much effort I did find some `fundraising boxes` with religious signs on it. I read the caption .... it said: ``Tameer-e-Masjid ka chanda` ... the fund to build (and maintain) a mosque.. it was for a particular mosque, and apparently these boxes are found in almost every community... for the upkeep of the mosques... Now personally I think spending so much money on mosques when you don`t have schools is not a good idea... but a mosque fund is quite different from a `jehad fund`....little knowledge is dangerous.

I suspect both Dost Mittar and Veeresh might have come across these boxes... while Dost Mittar, being an educated and tolerant person would have had no qualms with it ... especially since it pertains to a different religion than his own... Veeresh being the incurable wannabe elitist, India-is-the-heaven-on-earth fanatic chose to interpret the boxes as `Jehad boxes`.

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PS:

The reason I was out looking for the `Jehad` boxes was because I really wanted to see the truth for myself...

Two ramzans ago... I did find a Jamat-u-Dawa stall asking for funds for Jehad against India and Israel, and for the resettlement of Afghan Refugees... I had it removed by contacting the local SHO ... and I personally tore down the anti-India/Anti-Hindu Banner...

I tell you this because I had mentioned this even then because it was the truth... but what Veeresh is putting up is a blatant and horrible lie.

Now I really don`t want to ridicule some unfortunate but here is at least one picture to show what Bangalore actually is:

``In Bangalore, more than 800 slums give shelter to approximately 1.5 mil people.``

Here is one more and I will do not any more Tahmed!
This is a better picture of the real situation in Bangalore.

Okay, okay. This is the end. I just could not resist.
cyber cafe in the FOOOOOURTH Largest tech center in the world! and IT shops!

trust the flagbearer of the RSS to come to the bear`s defence -- er sadna stop quoting me figures 4 years old from the CIA factbook -- also u meant higher quantity not quality -- also forgot to mention that india`s population is 8 times more than pakistan`s -- higher salaries have to do with costs of living primarily -- cant teach u basic econ now -- but your own figures and then saying higher salaries mean better quality comment makes no sense shri sadnajee -- if u meant higher salaries more qty then i can understand -- since indian newspaper circulation is more than pakistan`s -- the figures r not indicative of quality or perhaps for a paki hating diehard such as yourself they prob r

HP: You may be interested in knowing that this particular variety of CREIP (AlephNull) that you call by its descriptive name (A-hole) also has a scientific name: CREIP/BUM (Chowk Registered Expert from India on Pakistan, subcategory Burnt Up Man). The subcategory being on account of the perpetual smell of burning rubber that he emanates.

but seriously, you are right. These individuals are all shameless apologists for hindu terrorism. Just consider reading their excuses for the brutal murder of their fellow citizens in India to be an educational experience of the kind of lowlife that exists in India.

As for Bangalore, I used to have a friend from that city. He told me that it used to be a nice place, but has become a mess due to rapid growth (like many other cities in south asia). He also told me how his mother still does not speak to his wife because he (a brahmin) married her (and she was of lower caste). It is fine, real life people like him that give one hope that India is not just a collection of a billion specimen of the CREIP variety. Just be glad we have these pathetic specimen around to have some fun with.

323 by A-hole

Just when I thought this thread has died after Veeresh’s surrender and apology, A-hole shows up with his screwed up ideas and start spouting his non sense. This man is a piece of work and I got to admit that this A-hole, who truly believes that Sikhs offered themselves to be killed in 1984, has some gall to talk about Jihadis and their relations to Lahore. This person has Muslim blood oozing out of every pore of his body and he is pretending that he can actually compare some Indian cities with Lahore. I have seen Bangalore as recently as three years ago and if I start posting pictures that I have and that are also available on the Net of that filth of a city; Bangalore, then tahmed would ask me stop as he did to another poster.
Raiwind (This A-hole does not even know the name of the place right) near Lahore is a place of annual gathering of several hundred thousand Muslims like Vanaras is the scene of annual gathering place for several hundred thousand Naked RSS members and baby killers from Gujarat and elsewhere in India.

It is amazing how these upstarts hear and believe things said about Bangalore in Indian Papers or Indian web sites. If you ask them to quote some references most of them would come back with some stupid links from Rediff or sulekha.com. The two most horrendous pieces of unmitigated sh!t on the net.

Bangalore is not even the capital of the call centers and most of this number-four-in-every thing sh!t believers would not even know which city in the US is the Mecca of call centers. Let’s not even talk about the technology centers. These are the same guys who actually and truly believe that India is the richest country in the world just behind the US.

The country is so rich but every frigging medical and Engineer graduate wants to leave that country with the first opportunity available.

To top it all, most of them present FAKE resumes and apply for jobs thinking that people don’t know their game. Ask any IT technical recruiter of some standing in the US and he/she will tell how often they find Indians claiming years of experience, can’t even decipher common computer terms.

I am in possession of several hundred fake resumes from several hundreds of these fake technology masters. The beauty of the brilliance is that you will find several resumes with the same job and the job description on several of these technology wizards. It is shameful that some poster like A-hole here claim that Bangalore is the fourth something in Technology. It is unfortunately, also number one in producing fake resumes too.

These confessed baby killers like Harra-mi, A-hole and Sad Lass would like people to believe that RSS does not exist and the monsters of Gujarat were just innocent bystanders who happened to have killed couple of thousand Babies, Women and older folks to satisfy their desires to hunt human being!

Dear Mantolives:

For me something good came out of this craziness, I was able to see Lahore in nice pictures, having never been there myself. Please put more pictures from all walk of life and periords, and I suggest that you put a photo album on Lahore here on Chowk. You may even include the famous railroad track to India as well. Remember a picture is worth thousand words, and then you can rest your case.

Anil

#258 by Mantolives

[.... jehad boxes for example were more likely simply donation boxes for Mosques...]

Ah yes, and the AK-47s the Jehadis carry are meant to shoot birds, right?

[... the women who covered themselves when entering Pakistan were probably Indians visiting Pakistan for the first time and boy are they in for a shock]

Another gem!! Need I say more?

Harimau #198

{{… you are being cruel and you know it. But the Pakistanis fell for it.

Bangalore is the IT capital of India. …

To top it all, Bangalore has just been ranked the fourth best ``Global hub of technological innovation`` by none other than the United Nations...... }}

If you translate IT suitably from the Indian to the Pakistani context, redefining it as Islamist terrorism, Lahore may well be a good analogue for Bangalore. The MDI/Lashkar-e-Taiba headquarters and large campus is at Muridke, about 25 miles from Lahore. It has been the scene of annual gatherings of several hundred thousand present and future jihadis. It would be the Lahori/Pakistani analogue of the campuses of Infosys or Wipro, and the LeT’s activities are of equal regional and global significance to those of Indian IT majors. It is true that Lahore is not the only such center of excellence in IT in Pakistan – I would guess that Karachi would lead – so perhaps Hyderabad in India would be the correct counterpart for Lahore. But Lahore would surely rank right up there with other Pakistani cities as a major ‘global hub of Islamic terrorism’ when the UN gets around to producing such a ranking.

I find it odd on the whole that Pakistani Chowkistas have no wish to highlight this important facet of their city. I searched in vain among the Lahore photographs posted on this thread for scenes of jihadis strutting their stuff. Pity.

Ref salim #294

[Kaura, Kaka, Rajsinghi, Saint, friend, rsaxena, harimau, and others,

Khoob faida utha rahe hen aap log Ramzan ke mahine ka. Enjoy while there are a few more weeks and my sharafat knows no bounds. But come Eid, you will all be singing a different tune. It will be a real bhaloo dance - except that the hunters will be taking turns doing ``touch their toes`` exercises as the bhaloo punishes each and every one for misbehaving all month long. Keep up the nonsense and you will need those multiple recti, not just for the vegetarian samosas.]

With such proclivities -- of which we already know and there is no need for you to acknowledge them so openly, despite the curret fervor for ``coming out of the closet`` -- I wonder how the Ummah keeps growing. It does seem a medical miracle -- or is it one of Allah`s? Or is there a more mundane explanation of how Muslimas conceive?

Ref sadna #300

[harimau #247
PS: Just a thought - no cantonment but imperial past and old city - Hyderabad(6.4M agglomeration) could serve for comparison too...]

Yes. AND it has mosques!

veeresh: As this article reaches the end of its front page existence, I too would like to thank you: for making one absurd remark after another. Lacking that, your article would have met the fate of better written articles on the front page - i.e. without over 300 posts being generated.

I dont see how by any stretch of imagination you reach the conclusion that 96% of Pakistanis and Indians agree with you - but then, that is in keeping with your determination not live in your world of illusions. If you had been a bit more honest and humble, instead of claiming that 96% agree with you (which puts you close to your iraqi counterpart Baghdad Bob`s boss, who claimed to have 99% iraqis voting for him), you would have written something like this:

``I, veeresh, note that I have written a lot of absurd things in the article, some of which I have changed 180 degrees in the discussion after they were brought to my attention - e.g. my absurd remark about tipping; and the rest of which I have ignored - e.g. my absurd remark regarding the libaration of lahore in 1971; and none of which I have offered any regrets or any apology, thus proving that I have fully immunity to reality and logic or common courtesy.``

Anyway, have a good life in the land of oz.

pakis 87, horrible hindoos 44

...... i have always been against letting the horrible hindoos cross over to the right side of the border - see what you get ?..........damn ingrates!.......... now let us put an end to this nonsense and go back to the cold war untill we are capable of winning a hot war ........

............. in any case, it warms the cockles of my heart to see pakis of all hues and colors come together to defend the honor of the fatherland ........

.........i declare the pakis winners by 84-44 (the picture of indian waiters was worth 10 points)

p.s. salim mian, you are a piece of work! shabash, naujawan!

rajasingh: I must respectfully repeat what I said earlier: I do not need you or anyone else to interpret for me what Veeresh really meant to say. You say you at picked on 2 out of 5 points - if you were being reasonable, you would have also acknowledged that the other 3 points he made were indeed absurd.

Also note that your count above is incorrect: it is not 2 but only 1 out of 5 (the five being, GC college;lahore liberation;high tipping indians;no chemist shops;marutis, out of which you mentioned only GC Lahore. If I am wrong, please tell me the post number where you attempted to defend some other absurdity.).

Since you keep insisting that GC should not be included in the list of absurdities, let me focus it: suppose for the sake of discussion one accepts your claim that all veeresh meant was that this was a copy of a collage of some Indian college: What then was the purpose other than to detract from the purpose for which YLH put up that picture? The purpose of the picture was not to show the artistic merits of the collage, but to present the picture as part of the positive aspects of Lahore that Veeresh chose to ignore. Perhaps veeresh ignored it because he developed cataracts due to extreme prejudice, the sad condition per hamidm`s diagnosis. Perhaps he ignored it because he is more interested in pushing his stupid jingoistic agenda. Who the hell cares. He makes stupid statements, and gives all of us with time to spare an excuse to have a bit of fun pointing those out. :-)

jang #312 actually, religion always played second fiddle to power politics in the ottoman empire. The same was largely true for the mughals too - aurangzeb was the exception that proved the rule. Indeed, as Armstrong reports, during their conquest of north africa muslims actually discouraged conversions since conversions dried up a source of taxation (jaziea).

This is reflected in muslim art as well - artwork for mosques is strictly religious in nature (calligraphy, Quranic verses) as would be true for any religious place. But artwork for the palaces is very different with pictures and everything (mughal miniatures are of course well known in india, similarly persian carpets for palaces had romantic pictures of women and their aashiqs, and even the ottomans took it easy).

Given the pervasive belief even among balanced, intelligent Indians like you that muslim history is based on religious fanaticism, I am beginning to think that there has been a good deal of brainwashing done in India by your hindu-chauvinist politicians. Isnt it nice to be able to come to chowk and set your minds free from the shackles of RSS. :-)

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Ref salim #284

[Pakistanis and Muslims are very experienced at building great cities and preserving them for themselves or leaving them for others to enjoy - Cordova, Granada, Cairo, Tehran, Lucknow, Baghdad, yes even Delhi. And that skill has not been lost in the new generations - Ankara, Islamabad, Kuala Lumpur are testiments to our zeal for building cities.]

Would that include the preservation of buildings by Muslims that took place on Sep 11, 2001 in New York City? Or the Bamiyan Buddhas?

salim

``Yes, I agree that Istanbul is the finest example of Muslim architecture -``

would that be the aya sofia mosque? are there any ``remnants`` of byzentine architecure preserved by any chance? i guess constantinople was just an unknown shanty-town on the land-route to india before turki conquest, right? it was on the verge of the age of reason (e.g. the byzentines had already discovered perspective in their paintings), but then the turks happened and reason got replaced by the shining light of true-belief.

salim chauhan, you are a true warrior. stop using religion as a girlie excuse, use reason instead belief and fight a good rajput fight.

Ref HP #273

[The mindset you have has no value for life. Killing Babies, women and elderly is okay for you, Sandaas and A-hole as long as they are Muslim or belong to other minorities in India.]

Well, I have been reading the Koran on the web. Let me read the Upanishads and maybe my mindset will change!

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As we draw towards the end of this series of articles and interacts, I would like to place my closing remarks here:-

a) I thank all those who made this trip possible for us.
b) I am grateful to all those who read and interacted.
c) I shall repeat this trip again, and with a camera as well as experience.
d) My views, interacts and responses were basis what I saw.

And finally, I realise there is no way I can please everybody, but the fact that independent polls shows that 96% of all Pakistanis and Indians here agreed with my views, reviews and analysis makes me happy and fills me up with a determination to continue wearing my eppaulettes . . . err, bang away on my typewriter . . . I mean keyboard.

+++

If, however, as a writer, I was asked what would really make me happy, what would I ask for?

I would ask intelligent and non-combative readers from Pakistan to select a good newspaper of today`s date, go with it to the famous Govt. College Lahore gate, and take a dated photograph of three girls wearing denim jeans reading it.

+++

Thank you

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Tahmed

Post#298

Quote:

`` So excuse me if I tell you I am not interested in your explanation of what veeresh meant. ``

You are not interested in my explaination? Have I given you any explaination?

On the contarary, I have been very polite, and have given you an escape route in a subtle manner. Note, I even used the word ``inadvertantly`` (in my previous post to you, on the similar subject) in my post so that you can look again, at what you had written/claimed. That was giving you a way out, in a polite way.

You are claiming that Veeresh said X, and I have quoted from his posts only to show that he has not said, what you claim he has.

I have not given any explaination but it is questioning and refuting your claim. Please check again.

Tahmed32

Post#298

Quote:

`` I realize by now this herd instinct of many (not all) indians where they jump to one another`s defense regardless of what the issue is (a clear sign of a cowardly, unprincipled lot), and your picking one out of a number of absurd things written by this man, and then attempting to split hairs to prove that he did not mean what he said on this point, is just one more example of this. ``

Sir, in the past he may have had been to moon, mars, heavens above or wherever else. That could be an issue but it would be a different one. Your post from where I have quoted or is in question, consist of 5 points. Of those, I have picked two. That is 40%. That in no way means, splitting hair or attempting to split hairs.

Ref #301

`` thick and dense grass`` maybe thats the reason u r not getting laid .... and hence getting desperate ....

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harimau #247
PS: Just a thought - no cantonment but imperial past and old city - Hyderabad(6.4M agglomeration) could serve for comparison too, if the CM let loose for 10 yrs with World Bank billions and IT fervor could be matched.

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rajsingh #190 I realize by now this herd instinct of many (not all) indians where they jump to one another`s defense regardless of what the issue is (a clear sign of a cowardly, unprincipled lot), and your picking one out of a number of absurd things written by this man, and then attempting to split hairs to prove that he did not mean what he said on this point, is just one more example of this.

So excuse me if I tell you I am not interested in your explanation of what veeresh meant. He can write for himself. He has changed his story 180 degrees before on other things before, and he is quite capable of doing that again.

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Morad #282 Thanks for appreciating the post, and you advice is well taken. It is indeed sad the number of posts generated by an article often seems to be in inverse proportion to the quality of the article. But I shouldnt be talking, since I tend to join in here (I explained the reason in an earlier post to my good chowk friend rsridhar, but that post is now buried under a mountain of pictures, veereshisms, correction of veerishisms.)

Good to see you back on chowk. :-)

Tahmed

Post#278

Quote:

`` Government College (where I spent four years eyeing girls in that beautiful building and wonderful green grounds which Yasser didnt even show) is actually the Benarus Hindu College!!

Perhaps, another mistake/error in the above? For, I have not seen him claiming that. What he has said is, as follows:

Quote from Veeresh`s post#240

`` The one you posted about Lahore Govt. College is a reconstruct of a scene from Banaras Hindu University (BHU) which has been on the Internet for a long time, take a closer look at the funny photo-shopped vanishing/fade-out of the backdrop within the arch. ``

If this translates into his having claimed that Govt College is actually the Benarus Hindu College, then I do not know.

Furthermore, in his post #266, he is saying:

`` I am just telling you to take a closer look at the photograph you`ve put up, it has been morphed with another one from a similar gate at BHU/Banaras.

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vereesh,

...... If you didn`t see any chemist stores in pindi then i would suggest you better take care of those cataracts .......... i have lived there all my life and go back for a month or two every year and have never had any trouble in finding a chemist, a drug-peddlar or a drug addict within half a mile of where i happen to be ........... actually, you can go to any empty plot and pick up a handful of used syringes dispensed by these invisible chemists ...........

........... next thing you will be saying that you couldn`t find anything to drink in pindi! ...... you might be right there because london lager is hard to find and the market is flooded with kingfisher and black dog - stuff that is not really fit for human consumption ........... but, unlike you, i can put aside my extreme prejudice when i get thirsty ................ i also know that prejudice causes cataracts

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# Re 284
<<< Muslims are very experienced at building great cities and preserving them for themselves or leaving them for others to enjoy - Cordova, Granada, Cairo, Tehran, Lucknow, Baghdad, yes even Delhi. And that skill has not been lost in the new generations - Ankara, Islamabad, Kuala Lumpur are testiments to our zeal for building cities>>>>

Salim,
good to have you back ... i believe that you had great time in Turkey ... Istanbul is one city i would love to settle permanently .. I am surpised that it is not mentioned by you in the above list ... as u know Turkish Sultans contributed alot to this ancient city ....

btw where does this come from !!!

<<<< Lahoris have managed to preserve the ancient buildings with such love and care - because they truly are the heirs to that great civilization we call Mughal >>>>

kiya phir ghaas khaani shoro ker deee hai ????

Salim #284,
You are correct. Lahore not only embodies Mughal spirit, it still lives in that era...


Kaura, #283 et al..
Jinnah and Lahore -- Two buttons to burn the chaddis.

Tahmed

Post#278

Quote:

``There are no chemist shops in Pakistan (if there is one kind of a shop of which there is no shortage in pakistan, it is a chemists shop.``

Is there some mistake/error in the above quote? Perhaps, inadveratantly, in the flow of things? For, I do not recall Veeresh having said or claimed that there are no chemist shops in Pakistan. If he has said that, would like to see that post/part.

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Re # 278
TAhmed ....Very well written post ... but my sincere advice would be not to waste time on him ... its not worth it .....

Kaurasach...

I am trying to figure out a way to post the pictures of the Modern architecture... I have loads and loads of them on Snapfish.... Also... there was no motorway in any of the pictures... so I am not sure what you are talking about...


Veeresh...

Whatever you say now... you said that Government College did not exist...

To all idiots who are showing off by pasting phorographs ......

Kindly just post the URLs and allow us to go to the websites..

Two more comments
1. Almost none of the photographs posted by idiot#265 and old idiot#32 contain females. Are there no females in Pakistan? Perhaps that is what led to Iqbal of Lahore becoming what he became....
2. I understand that old men on this site have nothing else to do .. having lost their ability to persue more interesting things long ago.. . Now I also understand why YLH has time to spend all his time on this forum, he is also shut off from more interesting pursuits at this time- as recently he had a daughter... (By the way, is it his!! - I wonder, this guy acts so feminine - Firaq or our bihari friends will be delighted to have him).





And while you have time, do visit an interesting travel diary at http://www.expedition.50megs.com/diary/diary150200.htm

It has some interesting comparison of travel through India and Pakistan .... Both positive and negative comments ..
``The Pakistani side of the border was somewhat of a contrast to the orderly Iranian side. Chickens, goats and money changers (offering terrible rates) abound. General impression – dusty and untidy. However, the pakistani officials could not have been more different to the Iranian side. They were courteous, helpful, with (dare I say it) less bureaucracy (I thought that Pakistan was second only to India for bureacracy and paperwork). ..... They all speak very good English which helps. Despite this, the border formalities still took two hours to complete. ``


..... ``Packed up camp and left Amritsar. Continued on the Grand Trunk road towards Delhi. Compared to the Pakistani roads it was a delight! We stayed with it for most of the day; turning off in the afternoon at a small town called Sirhind. ``

veeresh #266 I spent a day at your home town delhi as well. All I have mentioned on chowk about it is how i enjoyed visiting the lal qila, the interesting mughal motifs and so forth. I could have mentioned a lot of negative things about it - but what do you expect in a third world town? there are going to be slum areas and posh areas.

You remain quiet about those veereshims that I took the trouble of listing for you, so let me bring them to your attention once again:

1. Government College (where I spent four years eyeing girls in that beautiful building and wonderful green grounds which Yasser didnt even show) is actually the Benarus Hindu College!!

2. Indian army liberated lahore from the clutches of the evil Pakistanis in 1971. (and you actually kept insisted three or four times on this!!)

3. Waiters came running to you because they know Indians are high tippers. (sure you corrected yourself later by saying you merely meant that you started tipping after you saw Pakistani friends tipping - but why do you have to make up stories to begin with? are you that desperate to prove something about Indians and to put down Pakistanis?).

4. There are no chemist shops in Pakistan (if there is one kind of a shop of which there is no shortage in pakistan, it is a chemists shop. As for chemists shops selling aspirin only - all I can say is this: I once bought an anti-cancer medicine called tamoxifen for my dying father from the US for $700 on my way to the airport in the US, only to learn upon reaching Pakistan that it was available much more cheaply in Pakistan).

5. And of course those famous Marutis you