“Final” solution?

correction:he said look at what the US is doing to the muslims in America, i.e. patriot act etc. and a few indian muslims there agreed.

Stuka

My contention is based on the accounts which I have witnessed with my own eyes in Karachi. I have lived thru and survived the civil war. The ethnic cleansing that happened in Karachi whether done by Punjabis and pushtoons of mohajirs or that done by mohajirs of the former or that of sindhis was as ferocious and gruesome as that in Gujrat. You can simply replace the captions of the pictures given in the alkhilafah.org website given by the author to indicate see what happened in Karachi. What happened in gujrat was probably over in one month with approx 2000 Muslims dead and 200k homeless, but what has happened in Karachi and sindh has happened for almost 10 years and rendered 30,000+ Muslims dead and property damage is estimated to be in billions of rupees. The involvement and incitement of this genocide by Na-Pak army upon innocent citizens of Pakistan is a well known and well documented fact. The complacency and silence of Punjab - its citizens and its politicians - is a fact that cannot be justified by any logic or reason. The compalacency of Punjab when this Na-Pak fauj is unleashing another genocide upon its own citizens in two provinces on behest of their foreign masters, is a fact no one can justify with any reason or logic. So if one asks me who is worst of the two - hindu religious nuts or the Pakistani army and Punjabis, I would say the later.

It has been said that many hindus involved in NGOs and otherwise were helping the riot victims. Can anyone shed any light on Gujratis involved in this process? I am aware of Sarabhai and her poilitical protest, and snubbing of Modi by Mr Bajaj in a industry meeting. However, overall sense I get is that Gujrati publics by an large were not critical of these riots, or state support of the same. Most of the protestation came from outside. Even the political parties such as the Congress (dominant party in Guj) stayed clear of criticising Modi in election as mr. rioter.

To me, this is even bigger story than the riots themselves. People i talked from that part of the world and their relatives in Mumbai mumbled some thing like ``it was bad, but a lesson had to be taught, and modi did it.`` folks kind of view modi as a kasai, someone who has to do the bad thing which needs to be done.

So, I would like to understand where the Gujratis stand? This is the ``peaceful`` community, full of Jains who dont even want to kill a bacteria. I myself have bullied a lot of Gujjus in my younger days, and have rarely found them itching for a fight.

I must stay that I have had Tea in Godhra before, and it was was memorably awful. This is saying a lot considering I had tea in other god-forsaken railway stations like Jhansi, Urai, Kanpur, Sahranpur, Bhusawal, Egmore, New Jalpaiguri and so on..

Urstruly:

Not really. At no time have Punjabis imbibed the same level of hate that was expressed towards Muslims in Gujarat.

Secondly, for all the talk about the state being involved in Gjarat, the ugly truth is that the primary protagonist was not the state. At best it was a facilitator.

The ugly and harsh truth is that there is a complete breakdown in Hindu-Muslims integrity in Gujarat. The primary protagonists were ordinary Hindus who have been condtitioned to hate Muslims. The reconciliation will come slowly, and only from active prodding from outside Gujarat. The shifting of cases outside Gujarat etc are small steps and the more difficult step is to change basic orientation.

In Pakistan on the other hand, there is no genuine animosity at the root of the conflict. It was basically state manipulation and that has been corrected in past 10 years.

Mr. Wasty`s comparison of Hindu Religious nuts with that of Punjabis of Pakistan is very interesting and accurate to the letter.

``The film illustrated great irony with the fact that the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) used pure Urdu words (as opposed to Hindi) as part of electoral campaign songs...``
No irony there. There was an article in Milli Gazette some time back, complaining how the Hindi press used the Urdu word `aurat` to refer to women in the derogatory sense (for eg, while referring to prostitutes), while it used the Hindi word `mahila` to refer to women positively. Do not expect to hear `Babur ke suputr` in the near future.

The whole Gujarat riots has proved to be counter-productive to the Sangh Parivar in the long term. Agreed, in the short term, it returned Narendra Modi to power. But it has blackened the names of Hindutvawadis (and India) internationally for a long time to come. If they wanted revenge for Godhra and had restricted to rioting and killing a couple of hundred Muslims, then even the `secular` people would have dismissed it as a reaction to Godhra. However, they went overboard and now are in trouble, even with India`s middle class Hindus, not to speak of the minorities.

#28 rsridhar: I think the anti-Sikh riots were a bit different in that the hatred that is there against Muslims was not there. It was a ``political act`` by the Congress party to avenge their leader`s death. Consider that one of the main accused, Jagdish Tytler, is not even Hindu, but a Christian. The Gujarat riots were out of pure hate, not just revenge. Godhra was only an outlet for the pent-up hatred - I fear that there will be more such outlets in the future.

kaurasach, piarra-love and others,
Why should people stop pointing fingers at others?

The author is absolutely within his/her rights to write about the Gujarat riots. There is not fair to expect that the author should mention Kashmir genocide of Pandits, Shia-Sunni riots, 1971 or anything else in the same breath. Unless you feel that the Gujarat riots are related to the others.

Your comments are exactly the same as that of the Sangh Parivar. When the media criticised the Gujarat riots, they said what about Kashmiri Pandits, why are you not criticising them. But why is that a must. Both riots are wrong. But can we not criticize one without having to `balance` it with criticism of another? Are our morals so relativistic? Can we not have absolute morals to say that each is wrong by itself, and should not be criticized or justified in comparison to another wrong?

Let someone else criticize the killings of the Pandits or Shias in Pakistan, in another article. This article is on the Gujarat riots and let us comment on it by itself.

There has been a major change in Muslim behaviour in India over the past three / four years. For one, they no longer trust the police or the courts to provide them protection. After the Gujarat riots, Muslims have moved to their own `enclaves` with high walls and exclusive Muslim population. They are also preparing to defend themsevles by stocking weapons. Another round of anti-Muslim riots will find the Muslims much better prepared.

A second change has been the push for education. I find a lot of people moving towards English medium education, `mainstream` jobs, overseas jobs etc, much more than earlier.

A third change is the return to orthodoxy. I find a lot more men wearing shalwar+beard, and women wearing the burqa - both noticed in software companies in Bangalore.

higly unbalanced and prejudicial views.....

Seems Mr Wajahat is one of the Brain washed Ones......

I saw ... an Old Pathan... being Burned Alive....By the Mohajirs Youth....when they
were on a rampage....All he used to do was Sell woods... at the corner of Gujar Nala.
on the Road leading from Nazimabad to Lalukhet....

Even Amenety International Report Clearly say.... MQM itself was involved in Mass
murder of Non mohajirs and disendents......and Karachi saw the banners....
`` Qaid ka Ghadaaar Moot ka haqdaar `` and non just banners.... But fully implemented Slogan ....with Action.


.... Really they should be forced to Live in the Other Parts of the country for at least
three-four years.... Only then they will come out of their Bais...

rsridhar,

You said:
``A lot needs to be done before Indians can proudly say India is a true democrazy. I have often said India is a democrazy but not an enlightened democrazy like US, Western democrazies are. ``

Repeat the above statement in the context of this news.
http://www.chinohillscourier.com/news/20030719/

* Chuches in US can have spires reaching 300 feets, and they object to Hindu temples spire height of 70 feet.

* ``The community needs to know how this architecture blends or contrasts with existing architecture in Chino Hills. ``
Does this mean, any european architecture is approved but otherwise it doesn`t blend in, not progressive? Isn`t this democracy against minorities?

Ooh, you don`t look ``good`` so get outa here???

When you say India is not ``enlightened`` like western democracy, you`re probably right, in the sense that the word ``enligheted`` qualifies one`s connection with church.
India is not church-controlled and never can be.
Our PM or president never bow to vatican for belssings, except of course, the baffons in Congress lift Sonia up and set her on the PM seat.

I would appreaciate if you can explain what you meant by ``enligheted``?

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view this users filtered interacts

I am double minded on this issue.

On one hand I would like to congratulate Rakesh Sharma for daring to document the ugly face of India and on the other hand I would like to appreciate India and Indian people and their democracy which made it possible. Such a feat of truthfulness is not possible in despotic regimes, such as, in Pakistan where it is not even fully acknowledged that the then military regime did anything wrong in East Pakistan and is still doing it in remaining Pakistan with impunity.

But then I think, what good is this openness and democracy. Vietnam and Afghanistan did not teach Americans not to committ acts of genocide in Iraq. In India genocide of Kashmiris is still a forgotten truth. So the truth of the matter is that such documentaries can be used as a propaganda in either way. It can be used to soften up and make people immune to the violenece that is inherent in them. Everytime we see humanity being shredded into bits and pieces by bombs; humanity being dehumanized by hoods on the head and thrown in front of attack dogs naked and screaming we become more desensitized to the violence. Isn`t it a wonder that now people have started to justify violence with arguments like - ``if Pak Army can do it in East Pakistan so what is so wrong with a genocide in Gujrat`` - ``if they can destroy our world trade center and kill 3000 innocent human beings then what is wrong with killing 100,000 of their innocent human beings``. What have we become. We are not even human beings any more. I curse thee mass media; you made me stand naked in the crowd and desensitized me of my shame as well. I curse thee.

re: the article

The author is angry, so his vision is not clear.
He makes a lot of non-sensical statements. For eg:
1. ``As well, the film also showed how the Indian media were implicated with the happenings. Many outlets stoked the fires of hatred towards Muslims by publishing and propagating false reports. There was a blatant violation of journalistic protocols and abuse of freedom of speech by promoting hatred and encouraging acts of violence. ``
My comments: This is true only for the vernacular press. The national press exposed Modi and conducted itself well.

2. ``The film illustrated great irony with the fact that the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) used pure Urdu words (as opposed to Hindi) as part of electoral campaign songs, which themselves were bite-offs from popular Bollywood ones - many written and composed by Muslims. The music itself is the product of Muslim arts....``
My comments:
This is nonsensical. So, the hindutva forces should have been shouting in chaste hindi or better still, in sanskrit!
The author does not understand the mindset of the fundamentalists. Latter will go to any length.
Besides, Bollywood is an Indian phenomenon and if there are a lot of muslims in Bollywood, it only atttests to the fact that music and art has not yet been besmirched by religious fanaticism. They cannot afford to, otherwise their appeal will be severely curtailed (Bollywood is watched by muslims in middle east, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc).

3. ``On top of that, the music is mainly North Indian, thus, as explained earlier, it is wholly influenced by the Muslim civilizations that ruled India for hundreds of years. It was these same Muslims under whom the arts, culture, and architecture of India flourished, so the Indian tourism industry remains almost entirely dependent on the era of Muslim rule.``
My comments:
No kidding Sherlock! The music is North Indian (cant` say the word ``Hindustani``, eh?). You got that right. Indian art, culture etc prospered under muslim rule? Some may debate that. Muslims surely enriched the Indian tapestery but it depends on who we are talkin about. For eg, Art flourished under Md Shah Rangeela but was severely curtailed under Aurangzeb.

I, however, completely agree with your following statements:

``It is quite obvious that had India not been split up, it would not have experienced such a rampant growth of Hindu terrorism. A strong Muslim minority of over 35%, combined with other groups (Christians, Sikhs, Dalits, etc.) would have maintained the traditional, relatively fine communal balance of the Indian lifestyle.``

``One important fact that was reinforced by this film was the grave error of partition. The fact remains that the creation of the Muslim League Indian political party in 1906 in turn resulted in the creation of Hindu Mahasabha, Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) and Jansangh (Hindu extremist parties). The making of Pakistan instilled a permanent enmity in the hearts of many non-Muslim Indians towards Muslims and Islam, as well as stoked the ethnic problems within Pakistan (leading to the humiliating split up of the country in 1971 and other problems experienced until today). ``

Partition, indeed, was a grave error and affected the muslims in India a great deal. Pakis in Pakistan may turn this argument around and say that Partition was a good thing since muslims in Pak do not have to face riots involving hindus. But, then you guys have this Mohajir_Punjabi, Shia-Sunni thing going on. Add to that the new found hatred in the tribal belt and i think Pakis have their bag full.
BTW, i think u are a Mohajir very angry with the Punjabees in Pakistan as well as angry with the hindus. As Mulk Raj Anand (the famous Indian writer who died recently) often said: show your anger in writing but do not harbor anger against anybody.
In the end, consider the following:
1. The film ``Final Solution`` was made by a hindu.
2. The NGOs uncovering the truth about Gujarat riots are mostly hindus.
3. It is the majority hindus who rejected MPs from the most riot affected areas in Gujarat in the last election.
We are here seeing a battle between secular and fundamentalist forces. This is not between hindus and muslims. By Gosh, if it were, muslims would have been exterminated by now, so outnumbered are they in India.
Author may find some solace in the fact that the fundamentalist forces are losing the battle. When u find them resort to extreme measures, u know they are losing.
Sridhar

re:#20 by nikki7777
consider these facts: Till date, no political leader (big or small) has ever been punished for involving (directly or indirectly) in rioting.
The killers of sikhs during the 84 riots are still around (Tytler, Bhagat etc). Modi is still around and is still a CM.
A lot needs to be done before Indians can proudly say India is a true democrazy. I have often said India is a democrazy but not an enlightened democrazy like US, Western democrazies are.
Sridhar

nikki7777
i dont know which definition of democracy you believe in but hate speech is not allowed in any democracy, u might not have been in america today if it had been allowed.

Kaura
the difference is rape was used in Gujrat as an instrument of state policy, against a tiny mnority less than 8% of the population.

There is only one article in the washington post that blames Hindus for the murder at Godhra station.

Question to Shujat: Who is to be blamed for Godhra murders and why?

A twisted article by a twisted opinionist with twisted ``further online reading``.