“Final” solution?

Gujju

``Hindvi ,

Thats their punishment for being anti-India. Do you have family in India ?``

and i am supposed to tell you so that you can met out the same punishment to them?

rajsinghi1 (#116):

I have already written an article on co-opting and colonisation of the Muslims, and there were discussions there. My post here was only in response to the complete turn-around by one interactor who was making loud proclamations to fellow Indians to stay away from my incendiary views...on this board he is justifying those very views...in posts #126,128,129.

In case you have not yet read the news, `Final Solution` has been passed by the Indian Censor Board finally without any cuts.

#124 by Urstruly
“Give and take a few hundereds, the number 18,000 is the federal government number.”

Federal govt in Pakistan would admit to killing people? That is news to me. The numbers HE quoted were from an edhi site I believe, and that too for one year, 1800 odd. Where are those Federal Govt numbers?
I think you are confusing the whole thing with an operation against the Dakoo Sains in “Dadu, Mehr, Nawabshah and the jungles that are around the banks of river sindh called ``Kachcha`` in 1995-96.

I was in Sindh during the crackdown from 1979 to 1983 and actually was politically active and traveled all over Sindh. Nobody ever complained of a large scale army operation similar to the ones that took place in East Pakistan or even in Balochistan. Yes! The army was rounding up PPP and other progressives from different parts of Sindh some of them were harshly treated and during the MRD movement they did open fire in Dadu and some other places but saying that they killed 30,000 or 18000 people is a gross exaggeration.

My family lives in Sindh and in the interior of Sindh. I am positive about what I know and what took place. I think you are relying on rumors.

Opposing the army is a right thing to do but believing in rumors and stories to justify your opposition to the army is a little too much for comfort.

Dost Mittar

Post#123

Quote:

`` I got stuka`s point re. desai right but made an error in deduction re. sitara-e-imtiaz``

Morarji Desai could not have even thought that far even if he wanted to. When it is said, he thought or proposed Bangladesh should not have been created and J&K problem could have been solved or J&K in lieu of creating Bangladesh.

He did say Bangladesh should not have been created but that was because of two different reasons. One, his hatred for Mrs Gandhi . Whatever she had done, he had to oppose. Second, being a misguided soul in this respect, he truly believed that Bangladesh should not have been created. At least, India should not have played any role in that. He was looking at this from a humane angle and that was one of the reasons why he gave orders to R&AW not to indulge in certain activities against Pakistan. It had nothing to do with his having any foresight at all.

One of his statements when he became PM was, Women make mess of/in politics..words to this effect. Probably it was Mrs Bhandarnaike in Sri Lanka who was the PM or President, and Mrs Thatcher who objected to his this statement. He took back his statement and kind of apologised but, he never apologised to ladies in India who also had objected. And perhaps, they objected before objections got raised from overseas.

One wouldn`t expect any foresight in matters of nation building, geo politics from the likes of him.

Dost Mittar


Following is from Hindu paper/magazine..

.......
On a representation made by the non-government organisations working among the riot victims, the delegation said the officials had informed them that the State Government had agreed to remove the anomaly in compensation to the victims of the Godhra tragedy and the post-Godhra riots. They also informed the delegation that compensation to the victims of the train tragedy would be reduced from Rs. 2 lakhs to Rs. 1 lakh per deceased, on par with the amount of compensation declared for the victims of the post-Godhra riots.

---

Following is from Times of India..

Earlier, announcing a relief package for the riot victims, Vajpayee announced that the next of kin of the nearly 820 persons killed in the Gujarat riots would be paid Rs 1.5 lakh compensation each, of which Rs 1 lakh would be borne by the PM`s Relief Fund.
.............

Following is from Tribune..

Excerpts from the interview:

Q: The state government is giving compensation of Rs 2 lakh to next of kin of the victims of the Godhra carnage and Rs 1 lakh for those killed in the communal flare-up afterwards?

A: The Godhra incident was not communal violence but terrorism. It was a Congress MLA who in 1992 moved a resolution in the state assembly for giving Rs 1 lakh compensation to the victims of communal violence. The compensation is being given according to the law.

---

Apparently, later on (after the announcement) they agreed to compensate on equal basis.

hindvi

good suggestion. I have decided that the German version of my biography will be titled ``Mein Kempf en Swine``

[...-Modi`s statement had the same effect on murderous mobs that Rajiv`s comment about the big tree falling and the earth shaking had after his mother`s assasination...]


http://www.fisiusa.org/fisi_News_items/Godhra/godhra058.htm

...Inquiries reveal that no one from the paper had met the Gujarat Chief Minister on the day he is supposed to have quoted Newton`s law to its correspondent to justify the revenge killings of the minority community in Ahmedabad and other places in the state. The paper`s editors too have concluded that the said quote was `invented` by the correspondent to indicate `the attitude of the Modi government.` Indeed, it was all a cooked up job to justify what the paper`s deputy bureau chief in New Delhi said at a gathering of secularist scribes to `fight the fascist forces and not to give them any space in `our` papers.`..

On Cultural Colonization and Racism:

The present global stratification and make-up has been dictated in totality by the colonization and conquest of European nations. Although direct colonialism has largely ended, we can see that the ideology of colonialism has lingered in the identity of people within the general cultural sphere as well as the institutions of political, economic, and social practices. Colonization or the “colonial complex” is:
the “colonial complex”: (1) colonization begins with a forced, involuntary entry; (2) the colonizing power alters basically or destroys the indigenous culture; (3) members of the colonized group tends to be governed by representatives of the dominate group; and (4) the system of dominant-subordinate relationship is buttressed by a racist ideology.(Marger;2000:132)
This process has created the identities of both the colonized and the colonizer with pathological effects. It has destroyed both the lives and the cultures of the colonized and implanted a culture of destruction upon all inhabitants, both the colonized and the colonizer. There are two reasons for exploring the pathology of colonization; first we must understand the creation of the present social, political and economic dichotomy we face, but more importantly we must understand the psychological problems created by colonization, so we as humans can deconstruct the present Leviathan we live in and create a world based on cultural diversity, liberty, and mutual aid.


The Nature of Colonization


Empires, Land, and Cultures
The Ideology of Colonization
Colonization is based on the doctrine of cultural hierarchy and supremacy. The theory of colonialism is the domination by a metropolitan center which rules a distant territory through the implanting of settlements. It is the establishment and control of a territory, for an extended period of time, by a sovereign power over a subordinate and “other” people which are segregated and separate from the ruling power. Features of the colonial situation include political and legal domination over the “other” society, relations of economic and political dependance, and institutionalized racial and cultural inequalities. To impose their dominance physical force through raids, expropriation of labor and resources, imprisonment, and objective murders; enslavement of both the indigenous people and their land is the primary objective of colonization.
Another technique used to subdue the native population is the sacking of cultural patterns; these cultural values are stripped, crushed and emptied. The colonialists see their culture as a superior culture; usually tied to either Cultural Evolutionary or Social Darwinist theories. In an attempt to control, reap economic benefits, and “civilize” the indigenous peoples the colonialist dismantle the native cultures by imposing their own. There is a destruction of the cultural values and ways of life. Languages, dress, techniques are defined and constructed through the ideology and values of the colonialist. Setting up the colonial system does not destroy the native culture in itself; the culture once fluid, alive and open to the future becomes classified, defined and confined through the interpretation, imposed oppression, and values of the colonialist system. At this point the native culture turns against it’s members and is used to devalue and define the identity of the native population.
Their constant and very justified ambition is to escape from their colonized condition, an additional burden in an already oppressive status. To that end, they endeavor to resemble the colonizer in the frank hope that he may cease to consider them different from him. Hence their efforts to forget the past, to change collective habits, and their enthusiastic adoption of Western language, culture and customs. (Memmi;1965:15)

The Question of Land and Resources
Human History is rooted in the earth, everything is centered around or is connected to our use of land and territory. This has meant that much of human activities has revolved around the territory they live in and extract resources from. This has lead some cultures to desire more land and obtain new territory; therefore they must deal with the indigenous peoples of that land. At a very basic level colonialism is the desire for, settling on, and controlling of land that a culture does not posses; land that is lived on an owned by other people. Edward Said points out the rate at which Europe acquired lands at the end of their colonial reign.
Consider that in 1800 Western powers claimed 55 percent but actually held approximately 35 percent of the earth’s surface, and that by 1878 the proportion was 67 percent, a rate of 83,000 square miles per year. By 1914, the annual rate had risen to an astonishing 240,000 square miles, and Europe held a grand total of roughly 85 percent of the earth as colonies, protectorates, dependencies, dominions, and commonwealths. (Said;1993:8)

It was not only the acquisition of land that drove colonialism, but there was also a desire for natural resources and labor. The colonialist countries needed raw materials to support their growing economies. Places such as, the Americas and Africa offered natural resources they could utilize for manufacturing - as well as opened up new markets to sell their goods. Political structures of the colonial countries both economically and militaristically backed the establishment and maintenance of the colonies, but it can not be ignored that a high percentage of the funding for the colonies were provided by emerging capitalists; the Europeans extended their power by promoting merchant houses and chartered companies. In settler colonies like Kenya and Mozambique, there was a plantation-based export-commodity production of products like cotton, tea, coffee and sugar. Places like South Africa and Zaire were exploited for their gold and diamond mines. For the economies of the colonialist states the resources were harvested by the native populations (either through direct slavey or extreme wage-slavery).


http://www.geocities.com/anthropologyresistance/colonization.html

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Does RSS Colonization Exist?

Even if we forget the Chakravarti Kings who invariably went on Ashwamegha Yagnas invading every Dasyu Land or butchering every tribal who refused to bow down to the Khastriya King it is amply clear from the writings of Savarkar and Golwalkar that RSS’s Hindutva is nothing but Brahmanism in guise.(1)

So what does RSS Colonizer wants? RSS Colonization attempts to ‘control’ the culture and religious practices of (muslim) or other minorities through a grand cultural narratives about a fictional ‘pure’ colonizing culture which hinges upon the traditional Brahminical polarities of Arya versus Anarya, Arya versus Dasyu, Arya versus Dravids, Dwija versus Shudra and Astika versus Nastika .

It works on a ‘fictionalized’ and ‘romanticized’ historiography of Hindu history which probably never existed and is projected in its grand narrative as a Cultural standard for all the Indians to follow. However, they forget that such a narrative that forces a standardization of Indian culture by subtracting (Muslim) or other minority Cultures (Urdu, Salwaar Kameej , Kabaabs , Khayaal, Sitar or Sarod) cannot be accepted by the Indian Muslims.

This brings us back to the question of RSS Fascism and it’s irritation towards the non-Arya Dharma. Classical Modernity led to the emergence of the metaphysic of individual rights as being somehow in-alienable and a more fundamental `given` which transcends the collective religions. RSS Fascism wants to re-gain the metaphysical supremacy over this modern ‘Cartesian Individual’ by de-bunking this inalienable-rights-theory and subsume the individual and cultural liberties within the purview of their totalitarian state. In short, the private and personal affairs of the individuals and the various cultural groups would become subservient to those in control of this fascistic Hindu state- so you cannot celebrate Valentine’s day or wear Jeans on the streets because the Fascistic state wants a totalitarian control over how you even twitch any muscle of yours.

In case we propagate this thesis that RSS’s Hindutva includes IM-s who occupy this land, it is like endorsing the notion of Indian nationality as constituted by the Indian constitution and the Acts and Rules thereof. If this cultural nationalism is defined in such broad perspective then Hindutva is a redundant ideology because it gets subsumed under the concept of Indian Nationhood.

However, any attempt to define or re-define Hindutva is welcome provided:

1. It does not impinge upon the freedom and rights of the IM-s to practice their faith and their cultural practices nor forces them adapt practices alien to their culture or religion ( like greeting each other with ‘Ram Ram’ or ‘namaste’ or chant Gayatri Mantras as prayers in the educational institutions)

2. Does not alter the existing power relations between the IM’s and the Indian State.

Finally, RSS would probably never get the votes of IM-s until they realize that IM-s are ‘EQUAL’ partners in nation building and that they cannot dispossess them of their Tehzeeb and in the guise of assimilation.

P.S- How do you recognize a Communalist ? - When he first dares you to denounce his rival!


1.http://www.countercurrents.org/dalit-ilaiah050304.htm
“you call it Hindutva or Arya Dharma or Sanatana Dharma or Hindusim,
Brahminism has no organic link with Dalit-Bahujan life, world-views,
rituals and even politics. To give you just one example, in my childhood
many of us had not even heard of the Hindu gods, and it was only when we
went to school that we learnt about Ram and Vishnu for the very first
time. We had our own goddesses, such as Pochamma and Elamma, and our own caste god, Virappa. They and their festivals played a central role in our
lives, not the Hindu gods. At the festivals of our deities, we would sing
and dance--men, women and all-- and would sacrifice animals and drink
liquor, all of which the Hindus consider `polluting`”

Does RSS Colonization Exist?

Even if we forget the Chakravarti Kings who invariably went on Ashwamegha Yagnas invading every Dasyu Land or butchering every tribal who refused to bow down to the Khastriya King it is amply clear from the writings of Savarkar and Golwalkar that RSS’s Hindutva is nothing but Brahmanism in guise.(1)

So what does RSS Colonizer wants? RSS Colonization attempts to ‘control’ the culture and religious practices of (muslim) or other minorities through a grand cultural narratives about a fictional ‘pure’ colonizing culture which hinges upon the traditional Brahminical polarities of Arya versus Anarya, Arya versus Dasyu, Arya versus Dravids, Dwija versus Shudra and Astika versus Nastika .

It works on a ‘fictionalized’ and ‘romanticized’ historiography of Hindu history which probably never existed and is projected in its grand narrative as a Cultural standard for all the Indians to follow. However, they forget that such a narrative that forces a standardization of Indian culture by subtracting (Muslim) or other minority Cultures (Urdu, Salwaar Kameej , Kabaabs , Khayaal, Sitar or Sarod) cannot be accepted by the Indian Muslims.

This brings us back to the question of RSS Fascism and it’s irritation towards the non-Arya Dharma. Classical Modernity led to the emergence of the metaphysic of individual rights as being somehow in-alienable and a more fundamental `given` which transcends the collective religions. RSS Fascism wants to re-gain the metaphysical supremacy over this modern ‘Cartesian Individual’ by de-bunking this inalienable-rights-theory and subsume the individual and cultural liberties within the purview of their totalitarian state. In short, the private and personal affairs of the individuals and the various cultural groups would become subservient to those in control of this fascistic Hindu state- so you cannot celebrate Valentine’s day or wear Jeans on the streets because the Fascistic state wants a totalitarian control over how you even twitch any muscle of yours.

In case we propagate this thesis that RSS’s Hindutva includes IM-s who occupy this land, it is like endorsing the notion of Indian nationality as constituted by the Indian constitution and the Acts and Rules thereof. If this cultural nationalism is defined in such broad perspective then Hindutva is a redundant ideology because it gets subsumed under the concept of Indian Nationhood.

However, any attempt to define or re-define Hindutva is welcome provided:

1. It does not impinge upon the freedom and rights of the IM-s to practice their faith and their cultural practices nor forces them adapt practices alien to their culture or religion ( like greeting each other with ‘Ram Ram’ or ‘namaste’ or chant Gayatri Mantras as prayers in the educational institutions)

2. Does not alter the existing power relations between the IM’s and the Indian State.

Finally, RSS would probably never get the votes of IM-s until they realize that IM-s are ‘EQUAL’ partners in nation building and that they cannot dispossess them of their Tehzeeb and in the guise of assimilation.

P.S- How do you recognize a Communalist ? - When he first dares you to denounce his rival!


1.http://www.countercurrents.org/dalit-ilaiah050304.htm
“you call it Hindutva or Arya Dharma or Sanatana Dharma or Hindusim,
Brahminism has no organic link with Dalit-Bahujan life, world-views,
rituals and even politics. To give you just one example, in my childhood
many of us had not even heard of the Hindu gods, and it was only when we
went to school that we learnt about Ram and Vishnu for the very first
time. We had our own goddesses, such as Pochamma and Elamma, and our own caste god, Virappa. They and their festivals played a central role in our
lives, not the Hindu gods. At the festivals of our deities, we would sing
and dance--men, women and all-- and would sacrifice animals and drink
liquor, all of which the Hindus consider `polluting`”

Urstruly

Call it ``My Struggle with swine``

HP

Give and take a few hundereds, the number 18,000 is the federal government number. The interior sindh, especially Dadu, Mehr, Nawabshah and the jungles that are around the banks of river sindh called ``Kachcha`` had virtually become no-go areas right after the Movement for Restoration of Democracy (MRD) in interior sindh in 1983 and the way it was brutally suppressed by military. From mid 80s to early 90s the highways used to stop working fron North of Nooriabad upto Shikarpur or even Larkana from dusk till dawn. THe phrase ``Dakoo SaiN`` was coined by the establishment who lumped all political dissidents into this category. The night time raids on punjabi settlements were common in mid to late eighties. That is when I used to go there.

hindvi

I am thinking about including my wild boar story in my biography titled ``My Struggle``

stuka, rajsinghi:
I got stuka`s point re. desai right but made an error in deduction re. sitara-e-imtiaz.

gandiv:
-I distinctly recall the air of unease at the call of the bandh. My wife was to fly to Bombay that day and we switched her to a Delhi bound flight upon advice by the hosts in Bombay. Yes, the reaction was expected in Bombay too.
-Modi`s statement had the same effect on murderous mobs that Rajiv`s comment about the big tree falling and the earth shaking had after his mother`s assasination.
-yes, some police officers did do their job (firing at hindu mobs) but weren`t they transferred by Modi?
-the half-compensation was not a rumour, but an announcement by the state govt.

#121 hindvi

if you have not, read Bahl`s (tehelka fame) novel bunker # 13. no, its not well written (it apparently got an award for worst writing of an erotic scene ), and fictional, but describes what all our fujis are upto, like rapes, drug-trafficking, wepon smuggling etc. they are our own blood, and therfore i suspect morally as corrupt as the wider society.

but then, someone has to do the job of fighting the militants, while taking the paki journos around for famous wazani rogan josh.

Stuka

Post#111

Quote:

``Desai was against the creation of Bangladesh, his point was that we should use the issue to settle our own dispputes with Pakistan and not break the country in two. ``

He was against anything and everything which did not help him in PM of India..:)

When he became PM, and when the whole world was pleading Zia not to execute Bhutto, this coward gave the statement that it is Pakistan`s internal matter.

He gave instructions to R&AW not only not to indulge in certain activities in Pakistan but he went much beyond that.

Award that he got from Pakistan was for rendering services like these...And this is the same person who was called mole of CIA in India, by Seymour Hersh. Yes, case was settled outside the court but Seymour Hersh has not changed his statment, IIRC.