The Beslan Silver Lining

Jang

I agree with your analysis but I believe from the core of my heart that it is not in the nature of man to accept the tyranny of other. There is a difference between tyranny and justice though. So my stance is that I am with those who are with justice. And by the way what makes you think that if it succeeds you will not be in the Dhimitude as well. Have you already accepted your fate without puting up a good fight? makes one wonder how come it has become your second nature to accept the dhimitude everytime without a fight. May be I am wrong in my convictions but the idea of going down in a blazzing glory is so captivating that I will stick to my convictions.

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#32 by Urstruly

Let me explain how it works. A strong nation-ideology-people project influence over others. Their is a lot of symbolism involved. When everyone gets the message from these symbols, there is peace. Obstinate irrational opposition casued violence.

This has happened in the past in when the moors controlled spain, turks the byzentine empire and mughals dilli. Empires were strong and Dhimmis-Yahuds lived peacefuly, once they accepted the status-quo power. Whenever ill-advised (i.e. from ideologically and materially low-powered foes) attempts at challenge to the status-quo power invariably led to blood-baths, but rarely change of power. Change of power mostly came thru chemicals like alkelloids and opiates. As you well know, the Dhimmies and everyone else had it pretty good as far as everyone joined and supported the golden rule.

Script has not changed much, just the actors are different. There is the dominant western ideology based on material consumption, market-economy and flush-toilets, which is universally liked. There are symbolic powers with promises of peace in Dhimmi status (look at S. Korea or Taiwan, or the new Vietnam). Communism appeared powerful, but was rotten at the core. All the challenge caused was much bloodshed, but no change of power. Now a few small-time guys are not willing to accept the dhimmi status, so that all of us can have peace why? If they think rationally, they would, but alas, they are drunk of religion. Drunk enough to go into a battle, the outcome of which is pure mayhem, and not change in the status-quo power.

The only way the dominant powers will give way is when they rot at the core (like the afeemchi mughals). Truth shall always prevail.

Do you not agree? So, are you with us or or are you with them?

arjun_m

Can someone find any similarity between Chechnya, Beslan and 9/11 etc and the following analogy:

“Tell me something: If you were robbed, would the cops try to find the robber or would they work on solving the larger problem of unemployment and poverty in society that leads people to commit robberies?”

It definitely lacks the very common sense reasoning here and in almost in interact.

No offence please

As usual, the usual suspects, the bleeding heart muslims apologists, are out in full force justifying worse things by pointing out to allegedly worst things.

It is safe to assume that these apologists hearts also bleed for their supposedly oppressed bretheren in France and Oldham (UK). I guess ``Justice`` can be finally achieved when the horribly oppressed muslim ``freedom fighters`` finally blow up Eiffel tower and the London bridge to avenge the horrible oppression commited by the french and the British against the ``indegenous`` muslim peoples of France and Britain.

Isn`t that the modus operandi of muslim ``freedom fighters`` everywhere? multiply like Rs and then carry out ``jehads`` ?


Now leaving the larger question aside and coming to the theater of conflict mentioned in this article..... The Russians actually left Chechens alone following the bloody conflict of 1995 to 97. The chechens, true to their form, were not just content following their usual career paths such as kidnappings, extortions, drug-running, etc.... No sir, they had to invade Russian government in the neighboring Dagestan. The Russians then realized the nature of holy fanatics who bendover five times a day towards that big black stone in the center of Mecca. Just as no amount ironing could make a Dog`s tail straight, a jehadi can never be expected to realize that all the talk of whores in heaven is just a baloney. He has to be exterminated like the cockroach that he is.... and thus the conflict has begun in earnest.

#31 vertex

interesting reply.

one thing that has bothered my is what positions do muslims have regarding the Bodos? Bodos seem to want ethnic clensing of bngladeshi muslims. pakistanis clearly relish any separatist movement in india. many indian muslims (and tamils and dalits and sikhs apparently) at least lend a sympathetic ear towards decentralization and separatist causes.

what about the specific bodo cause? at face value this must present a dillemma, no?

Arjun 29

Exactly. And Russians think that Chchenaya is irrelevant so they will keep it occupying it. Americans think that occupation of Arab countries and plundering of their natural wealth is irrelevant to 9/11, therefore, they will keep it doing it no matter what it takes. THe beheadings are irrelvant to occupation of Iraq therefore Iraqis will keep on doing it for fun and so on and so forth...end of discussion. By the way it was your ass itching to know why Muslims did Beslan. If you have all the answers then why bother asking questions.

#27 by ankit

``Should we also discuss genocide of pandits when discussing kashmir?``
what is ther to discuss? Jagmohan did it. OTOH, the Dogra sponsered genocide in Jammu is open for discussion.

arjun_m,

``that line of thinking, taken to it`s logical conclusion, would mean the terrorist attacks of 9/11 would have to be discussed in terms of the palestenian/Israel problem....``

No, not really since Osama`s problem with the US was never really the Palestinian/Israel dispute. His was about their alleged influence over, and proping up of, the Royal family.

``The ``jihadis only attacked the US because of US support Israel`` line of thinking isn`t just the jihadi line...apparently, it`s the line of thinking among mainstream muslims, like you... ``

Nope. 9-11 aside, the (unquestioning) support for US over Israel is simply proof positive that they are completely unreliable as dispensers of justice by any standard (except for those set by the ideologues who suppor them, of course).

``They are attracted to what THEY see as legit causes....and only Islamic causes at that..``

Yes, Islamists are the flipside to the neo-con coin. What`s your point? The fact is, they are attracted to causes, and are hardly ever the cause (possible exception being 9-11, which is the result in part by a paranoid delusion shared by many Islamists vis a vis the scope and extent of the US influence over Muslim lands). They make a bad situation worse...but I don`t buy this line that they would exist anyway, or that if it were not for these ``causes`` they would be stiring up trouble elsewhere. It`s simply not true.

``In short: your heart automatically beats for muslims in any conflict with non-muslims..and it only beats for muslims...``

Blah blah blah. Not at all. Take east timor for example...better off now than before. To hell with what the Indonesian central govt. thinks. Take Paki terrorism in Kashmir. Pakis in a sense are doing Kashmir even more harm than India ever has. Clue me in on other `causes` and I`ll be as fair as I can.

Yes, I take causes that affect Muslims somewhat personally, so what? Deal with it. It neither inhibits my ability to think critically (as opposed to those who claim to have a better worldview, and yet support the most chauvinist of attitudes), nor my sense of fairness.

``If you think Russian actions don`t justify Beslan, there is no other side to the issue...``

If you think Russian actions in Chechnya have nothing to do with Beslan, then there is no other side by definition, not as a point in fact.

``Either you condemn the actions unequivocally, or you introduce Russian actions in Chechniya as justification for Beslan.. ``

Nope. Justification has a meaning...and it`s not ``rationale/reason``. Two wrongs CAN make a wrong, but that doesn`t imply there is no causation between the wrongs, or that one wrong is worse than another.

``Tell me something: If you were robbed, would the cops try to find the robber or would they work on solving the larger problem of unemployment and poverty in society that leads people to commit robberies?``

A more apropos analogy is if I was robbed after the Cops had previously killed/raped half my family, would I even bother going back to the cops?

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ankit & arjun

By your own logic, shouldn`t the ``genocide`` of Pandits be irrelevant then - but you want to have it both ways, now don`t you.

##
Not a single mention in this article that the population of Chechnya has been culled from 2 million to around 800,000 in the past decade by the brutal and rabid Russian forces. Yes, yes, this doesn`t justify beslan. No one is saying it should. But to mention Beslan without the atrocities inside Checnya is tacit approval of Russian tactics. Period.
##

Just like Palestine should be mentioned when talking about 9/11?

Should we also discuss genocide of pandits when discussing kashmir?

``For a long time in the muslim world the different groupings have blamed outside forces for their state of being. The Turks blamed their lethargy on the Arab dead weight. The Arabs pointed their fingers at the Turks who ruled them for hundreds of years. Of course, before all this the Mongols were convenient scapegoats. The Persians, of course, blamed all three impartially. The recepients of blame changed with the arrival of the imperialistic powers—the English and the French. Now the US and Israel provide strong placebos. ``


Mr Author, i have NEVER heard any muslim-opressionwallas blame the Ottomans for 400 years of most most corrupt colonization for their plight. I asked many-many times about what they think about this. The British-French colonization of the arab lands was at best fleeting, very unlike that of S. Africa, India or Kenya. Thanks for reminding us of this fact, and perhaps some knowledgeble folks can comment on effect of 400 years of corrupt colonization by Ottomans on arab lands.

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``Do you want the author to write about other things unrelated to the killing of the russian children in Beslan?``

Chechnya is very much related to Beslan. The Beslan massacre is a part of the ongoing Chechen conflict....a very small part on the grand scale of things.

``This reflexive sympathy for pan-Islamist causes not your own is going to hurt you someday...``

Pan Islamists are always attracted to legit causes, and simply make a bad situation worse. However, this in no way shape or form undermines these causes.

``So everytime I condemn terrorism, I should condemn Nazi killings of jews or Stalins killing of millions of his own people?``

If, and only if, you were singularily talking about anti-Nazi Jewish terrorism, or anti-Stalin terrorism. What is so unfair about that?

Now, as for the ``global`` war on terror, there is a second side on all fronts, and it ain`t all roses on this second side. So it`s a bit tiresome to talk about one side as if the other is somehow innocent...there is a victim complex not only among Muslims, but among the pro-war on terror crowd as well.

M.B.Z.Isphahani

Once upon a time there was one earth in one piece, but people lived in scattered tribes.

The hearts of tribesmen of one tribe beat like one heart, but they tore out the hearts of people from other tribes.

Each tribe killed for its own `True God,` and waited for its own Messiah, Mohammad, and Ram to return.

To establish its own version of `peace` built on its own victory and decimation of others. So `pristine oneness could return.`

While many waited, others saw that although they worshipped different `Supreme Gods,` they bled the same. Grieved similarly on the death beds of their children.

Then they began to create a religion of man, different from their religions of God.

When they had moved away from the camps of war, into the camps of peace, Ram, Christ, and Mohammad felt safe enough to return.

Moatoon na nass dubb ja hass hass
Ishaq da aye dastoor ni arriyee

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Islamic terrorists are like defense attorneys for the Islamic causes. The problem is that they are very successful in getting death penalties and life-term sentences for their clients for the crimes which usually get six months probation according to the law.

Even considering all the Islamic concerns - Palestine, Kashmir, Chechenya, Mindanao, colonialism, exploitation, western imperalism etc - absolutely genuine, still do not ask for the worst strategy, which is self-destructive without any chance of success.

For a person, ready to sacrifice his life for a noble cause, the better option is the one buddhist monks used in Vietnam - self-immolation in protest. There is absolutely no reason or justification to kill 100 of your own before or after sacrificing self to kill few enemies. The problem is the selfishness of afterlife rewards for martyrs outweighs the dedication to the noble causes.

This is neither an act of last resort nor is it out of desperation but the first choice for death wishers, who seek to perform this noblest of Islamic dulties. There are multiple of routes available for backing any noble cause, depending upon the nature of cause. Assuming that literacy level of Muslim women in subcontinent dropped from 50 percent during the golden era of Bahadur Shah Zafar to nearly zero in the following 100 years of colonialism *wink, wink*, killing anglos would not bring the female literacy back to 50 percent.

Similarly one has to have the right order of bad, worse and worst enemies before starting a crusade against it. Lets take the same issue of female literacy of subcontinent Muslims. Whodunnit? Colonialism was bad becasue they only improved it from 1-2 percent to 5 percent in 100-150 years. Before that for almost 700 years, Muslims rulers did not imprve it at all. So Muslim rule in India is worse enemy for Muslim women literacy than British colonial rule. Then Muslim women literacy remained about half of non-Muslm women, making Islam the worst enemy. The order with respect to Muslim women literacy in subcontinent becomes conversion to Islam (worst), Muslim rule (worse) and British colonialism (bad). Nobody is crusading in Pakistan to improve women literacy by considering this scale. Islamic fundamentalsits have no interest in this crusade because the chance of becoming martyrs is not there.

I expect to see Romair on this board very soon, with statistics about LTTE.

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Not a single mention in this article that the population of Chechnya has been culled from 2 million to around 800,000 in the past decade by the brutal and rabid Russian forces. Yes, yes, this doesn`t justify beslan. No one is saying it should. But to mention Beslan without the atrocities inside Checnya is tacit approval of Russian tactics. Period.

``In the process of always blaming somebody else the danger becomes that you start putting forward a different and exaggerated take on the events...``

Like what? Where is the exhageration in Russia or elsewhere for that matter? When real attrocities are being excused as mere exagerations, then I`m sorry, you`ve just lost credibility.

I mean, we should all point out and decry terrorism, but if you are unwilling to do the same when states do worse, then it`s shut up or put up time. So, the open challenge remains: rather than focus solely on the Muslims, I would expect the author to write another article decrying Russian abuses (or rather Genocide) in Chechnya.

...won`t hold my breath...

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Will someone please translate what M.B.Z.Isphahani has written?

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Veeresh

I think, Beslan has not been given the same attention as that of 9/11 because if the same attention were given to Beslan, then it would have made those who are fighting the war against terra, look stupid and inept. Three years of waging a war, with no results to show.

The idea that it can so be possible is an influence of radical european belief and not Islamic thought. It’s a byproduct of globalisation.

Simple, blame it all on globalization ... no wonder this cr@p first appeared in Outlook.

I have always wanted Islam and Muslims to be more introspective and figure out how to reform the religion and its practices in ways that make sense and without victimization of others within and outside its fold. While I don`t think a Western style alternative is the answer I have not seen anyone (apart from a few fringe voices) who has put forward someting along the lines of this: Yes, Muslims are fighting for their freedoms around the world but what is it about us that makes us react this way and turns the rest of the world against us. The outside world (and yes, America) does have culpability but so do we. As this new cultural war heats up I am no longer sure where I fall: with the imperialistic forces of America or the brutal, backward looking ulema.

Anyway, interesting article Anniruddha. Btw, we met at the 2003 BEA in LA. Both of us are from Allahabad. Good to read you here. Welcome!

While Muslim scholars try to defend Muslims by isolating Islam from terrorism, terrorists have enough arguments to recruit more suicide bomber. Today, world has more suicide attacks than it had before the start of war against terrorism. Clearly, Islam does not encourage the civilian murder in war; let us consider the situation without involving Islam. The fact is, it started when Islam was used to exploit the illiterate Muslim recruits for Afghan war. And today, Islam is used to arrange the suicide missions against USA and Russia.

America and Russia have a long lasting record of crime against humanity, and regretfully, most of the time, Muslims have been the sufferers. These two superpowers, USA and Russia, are in fact defending each other on every ground by keeping silence and by ignoring each other’s brutality. The countless civilian casualties in Chechnya and Iraq are recruiting more and more suicide bombers and terrorists to behead the American or Russian civilian. It is an endless loop, each party killing other party’s civilians. Will it every end? May be, if the two superpower account themselves.

While Muslim scholars try to defend Muslims by isolating Islam from terrorism, terrorists have enough arguments to recruit more suicide bomber. Today, world has more suicide attacks than it had before the start of war against terrorism. Clearly, Islam does not encourage the civilian murder in war; let us consider the situation without involving Islam. The fact is, it started when Islam was used to exploit the illiterate Muslim recruits for Afghan war. And today, Islam is used to arrange the suicide missions against USA and Russia.

America and Russia have a long lasting record of crime against humanity, and regretfully, most of the time, Muslims have been the sufferers. These two superpowers, USA and Russia, are in fact defending each other on every ground by keeping silence and by ignoring each other’s brutality. The countless civilian casualties in Chechnya and Iraq are recruiting more and more suicide bombers and terrorists to behead the American or Russian civilian. It is an endless loop, each party killing other party’s civilians. Will it every end? May be, if the two superpower account themselves.

While Muslim scholars try to defend Muslims by isolating Islam from terrorism, terrorists have enough arguments to recruit more suicide bomber. Today, world has more suicide attacks than it had before the start of war against terrorism. Clearly, Islam does not encourage the civilian murder in war; let us consider the situation without involving Islam. The fact is, it started when Islam was used to exploit the illiterate Muslim recruits for Afghan war. And today, Islam is used to arrange the suicide missions against USA and Russia.

America and Russia have a long lasting record of crime against humanity, and regretfully, most of the time, Muslims have been the sufferers. These two superpowers, USA and Russia, are in fact defending each other on every ground by keeping silence and by ignoring each other’s brutality. The countless civilian casualties in Chechnya and Iraq are recruiting more and more suicide bombers and terrorists to behead the American or Russian civilian. It is an endless loop, each party killing other party’s civilians. Will it every end? May be, if the two superpower account themselves.

While I totally abhore violence of any kind, I should point out that most muslim `terrorists` around their world are fighting for freedom - against the Americans, Israelis and Chechnyans.

These violent acts have nothing to do with RELIGION. It is entirely to do with POLITICS.

Why should nt newspapers carry headlines like ` Jewish terrorists kill innocent Palestine schoolgirl`?

Unfortunately, the media has played up the hype that `Islamic` terrorists are active in some places, while ignoring the wounds inflicted on them.

After all, that is not only the truth, but will balance the incorrect perception perpetrated by the western media - that these political acts are acts of religious `extremism` - They are not!

You will never succeed in your battle of terrorism until and unless your masters start practicing socil justice. You must keep on expecting the Beslan`s till the air raids on Grozny keep killing the Chechan Kids in schools@9000 per day. Reaction does not come before the action.

Author writes ``Beslan might be a catalyst for that introspection—on both sides. ``

It might be, but only if the world media gives Beslan the same mind-bending constant recall that September-11 got. That the gas chambers get. That hostages in Iraq are getting. Or maybe even Princess Diana gets.

Truth is that we don`t see that happening.

I wonder why?