Is Islam Anti-Semitic?
Gibran Bham October 13, 2004
#69 Posted by DRUMZ on October 18, 2004 10:30:25 pm
Bruce: there isnt a religious compnent to them. And what is your point and how does that refute my statement that terrorism is directly related to poverty? Or is religious terrorism cuter then secular terrorism to you?
Jang: the ganja is the only thing which is making everyone posts here appear deeper.... Why do you assume that terrorism starts when hopeless people are given false hopes? Maybe it begins when they lose paticnet with non violence. There are indeed other ways but I can name you 7 countries america has recently fukked up and I can also inform you that their answer to america was to do nothing. It is about time someone hit up the US.
I stated: WAR is the terrorism of the upper classes. I suppose though its not as bad as the terrorism of the poor....
Jang: the ganja is the only thing which is making everyone posts here appear deeper.... Why do you assume that terrorism starts when hopeless people are given false hopes? Maybe it begins when they lose paticnet with non violence. There are indeed other ways but I can name you 7 countries america has recently fukked up and I can also inform you that their answer to america was to do nothing. It is about time someone hit up the US.
I stated: WAR is the terrorism of the upper classes. I suppose though its not as bad as the terrorism of the poor....
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#68 Posted by nasah on October 18, 2004 10:30:24 pm
this is a very interesting pertinent article -- the Europeanization of Islam thru training of New Eujropean Imams by EU governments.....an auspicious beginning for a new reformed entity -- Western Islam...sorry that the article is a little long but highly significant and worth reading in full.
Europe Struggling to Train New Breed of Muslim Clerics
By ELAINE SCIOLINO
Published: October 18, 2004
T.-LÉGER-DE-FOUGERET, France, Oct. 13 - On a wooded hillside in deepest rural Burgundy sits a modest 19th-century chateau with a daunting mission: the training of imams to minister to the Muslims of Europe.
Here, for $3,200 a year, about 150 French and foreign students study and live in a damp, dilapidated former corporate summer resort with a tiny library, few computers, no television and no cellphone reception.
The goal of the European Institute for Human Sciences, as the coeducational school is known, is an urgent one shared by political leaders and intelligence and law enforcement authorities across the Continent.
They believe that the growing Muslim population of Europe must stanch the migration of Muslim clerics who often are self-appointed, unfamiliar with the West, beholden to foreign interests and in the most extreme cases, full of hate and capable of terrorist acts. To that end, they say, a homegrown breed of imams must be created.
``We are here to create modern imams who will respond to the needs of our Muslims in France and in Europe,`` said Zuhair Mahmood, the Iraqi-born director of the school who trained as a nuclear scientist and helped found it 12 years ago. ``We need more mosques for the faithful and that means more imams.``
The perceived threat is so great that a number of European governments closely monitor the activities and sermons of their Muslim clerics.
France has expelled more than dozen Muslim clerics for violations of human rights or public order since 2001, most recently Abdelkader Bouziane, an Algerian-born imam and father of 16 who asserts that the Koran permits men to beat unfaithful wives.
In Italy last November, the Interior Ministry expelled a Senegalese-born imam after he called for suicide bombings and declared a ``blood pact`` with Osama bin Laden.
On Friday, Britain decided to charge a militant Muslim cleric, Abu Hamza al-Masri, a former nightclub bouncer who has supported Osama bin Laden, with terrorism offenses, stalling an American effort to extradite him to the United States.
But creating an army of learned, law-abiding, Europeanized imams is not easy. State involvement in religion in the Arab world is commonplace, but in Europe a government role can be seen as a violation of privacy and human rights.
Spain`s interior minister, José Antonio Alonso, set off a firestorm of criticism in May when he proposed the creation of a mandatory registry of clerics and places of worship and the monitoring of sermons.
The Netherlands is experimenting tentatively with required government-financed programs to teach imams ``courses of integration`` about newer Dutch values, including a greater acceptance of euthanasia and drug use.
Under new regulations in Britain, Muslim imams and other ``ministers of religion`` wishing to enter Britain to work must show a basic command of English.
Islam does not require its prayer leaders to have a formal degree of learning in religion. An imam does not have to be an Islamic scholar but can be anyone that a community of believers appoints.
``In Italy,`` said Omar Danilo Speranza, president of the Association of Italian Muslims, an umbrella group, ``even a butcher can call himself an imam.``
Mr. Speranza said his organization will begin certifying imams it believes are competent, that is, those ``who have a reading of the Koran that is more peaceful, more oriented towards love.``
But for many Muslim communities in Europe, personal and ethnic ties with their imam are often more important than an outside seal of approval.
``The idea of producing imams is still controversial,`` said James P. Piscatori, an American who is a professor of Islamic politics at Oxford University. ``On the one hand, you want your own imams because the imported ones are seen as conveyor belts for bad ideas. On the other hand, the communities say, `Who are you to tell us who our imam should be or how he should be trained?` ``
Perhaps the biggest obstacle to creating the profession here in Europe is money: it is hard to make a living as an imam.
``An imam is not an official position; it`s poorly paid and there`s no security,`` said Olivier Roy, the French scholar on Islam. ``Why should a bright young French or British boy spend five years studying Islam only to find that there`s no real job, that the community just wants someone to lead the prayers and conduct weddings and funerals?``
Indeed, among the graduates of the institute in Burgundy are would-be teachers and counselors, but very few imams. Many students come only for the two-year Arabic-language program. Last year, only one graduate became a bona fide imam with a job in a mosque.
``I did business-marketing at home and that`s all about how you sell your product and my product is Islam,`` said Fahimul Anam, a 31-year-old Briton born in Bangladesh who dreams of work in education management. ``I don`t necessarily feel I have to become an imam to do that.``
Complicating matters is that the French government regards the Union of Islamic Organizations, the movement that runs the Burgundy school, as well as branches in Wales and in a suburb of Paris, as potentially dangerous.
The organization derives its inspiration from the banned Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, emphasizes personal purification and grass-roots proselytizing and aims to influence all aspects of a Muslim`s life. Mr. Mahmood, the director, made headlines eight years ago when he won a lawsuit requiring the local high school in the nearby town of Château-Chinon to allow his two daughters to cover their hair in class.
Last March, 100 followers of the far right-wing National Front party staged a demonstration in the town demanding that the Burgundy school be closed, calling it a hotbed of extremism that was producing Europe`s ``future political-religious agitators.``
In west London, the Muslim College, financed by a Libyan foundation connected to the government, similarly turns out students who have studied Arabic and Islamic studies but few imams.
``If the authorities would pay them, they`d all become imams,`` said Zaki Badawi, its Egyptian director. ``They find temptation elsewhere.``
Rivalries within Muslim communities have made it more difficult to forge a common approach to imams.
Since its founding in 1998, the Islamic University of Rotterdam claims to have trained about 20 practicing imams, according to Gokcekus Ertogrul, the university`s secretary general.
But in recent years, according to some scholars, the university has increasingly been financed and come under the influence of an Islamic movement in Turkey, and has been criticized for losing its Dutch character.
``Much of what they say about their students is not true,`` said Johan Hendrik Meuleman, a fellow at Oxford University`s Center for Islamic Studies who was once a volunteer lecturer at the university. ``Volunteers like me didn`t accept the takeover from Turkey.``
Mr. Ertogrul fiercely denies the charges.
In 2001, Mr. Meuleman helped create the Islamic University of Europe outside of Rotterdam, intended to train Muslim chaplains for hospitals, prisons and the military and perhaps a small number of imams.
Using municipal financing, Mr. Meuleman already has given Dutch language training and a course in Dutch culture to a group of imams living and working in The Hague.
Another problem in training imams inside Europe is deciding who is qualified to do it. Dalil Boubakeur, the director of the main mosque of Paris, and president of a French nationwide Islamic council sanctioned by the state, is proud of his fledgling imam-training school.
``We are forming a cadre of imams who speak French and can relate to the young Muslims of France,`` Mr. Boubakeur said.
But both the mosque and the school are financed by the Algerian government, and that makes them suspect in the minds of some experts.
``It is not a real school,`` said Mr. Roy, perhaps France`s most respected scholar of Islam. ``It is just a tool of Boubakeur`s power.``
Meanwhile, Mr. Boubakeur criticized the school in Burgundy because it teaches all its courses in Arabic, not French, and he has branded its parent organization ``fundamentalist.``
Among the imams who have done their studies in Europe, there are different assessments about how the programs have worked.
Vicente Motta al-Faro, 29, a Spanish convert to Islam and the sole graduate of the Burgundy school last year, could not find a job as an imam and is about to start a job teaching Islamic culture at a center in Valencia. Becoming an imam, he said, ``depends on which Muslim community has money, which few have.``
Chedli Meskini, by contrast, a 38-year-old Tunisian-born French citizen who completed a four-year course at the school in 1997, was luckier. He landed a full-time job at a mosque in Le Havre, where he preaches in both French and Arabic.
``These days, imams are in hot demand,`` he said. ``And to find an Arabic and French-speaking imam, well, I don`t want to say it like this, but they need people like me.``
Mr. Meskini`s salary: $8.90 an hour, less than France`s minimum wage.
Europe Struggling to Train New Breed of Muslim Clerics
By ELAINE SCIOLINO
Published: October 18, 2004
T.-LÉGER-DE-FOUGERET, France, Oct. 13 - On a wooded hillside in deepest rural Burgundy sits a modest 19th-century chateau with a daunting mission: the training of imams to minister to the Muslims of Europe.
Here, for $3,200 a year, about 150 French and foreign students study and live in a damp, dilapidated former corporate summer resort with a tiny library, few computers, no television and no cellphone reception.
The goal of the European Institute for Human Sciences, as the coeducational school is known, is an urgent one shared by political leaders and intelligence and law enforcement authorities across the Continent.
They believe that the growing Muslim population of Europe must stanch the migration of Muslim clerics who often are self-appointed, unfamiliar with the West, beholden to foreign interests and in the most extreme cases, full of hate and capable of terrorist acts. To that end, they say, a homegrown breed of imams must be created.
``We are here to create modern imams who will respond to the needs of our Muslims in France and in Europe,`` said Zuhair Mahmood, the Iraqi-born director of the school who trained as a nuclear scientist and helped found it 12 years ago. ``We need more mosques for the faithful and that means more imams.``
The perceived threat is so great that a number of European governments closely monitor the activities and sermons of their Muslim clerics.
France has expelled more than dozen Muslim clerics for violations of human rights or public order since 2001, most recently Abdelkader Bouziane, an Algerian-born imam and father of 16 who asserts that the Koran permits men to beat unfaithful wives.
In Italy last November, the Interior Ministry expelled a Senegalese-born imam after he called for suicide bombings and declared a ``blood pact`` with Osama bin Laden.
On Friday, Britain decided to charge a militant Muslim cleric, Abu Hamza al-Masri, a former nightclub bouncer who has supported Osama bin Laden, with terrorism offenses, stalling an American effort to extradite him to the United States.
But creating an army of learned, law-abiding, Europeanized imams is not easy. State involvement in religion in the Arab world is commonplace, but in Europe a government role can be seen as a violation of privacy and human rights.
Spain`s interior minister, José Antonio Alonso, set off a firestorm of criticism in May when he proposed the creation of a mandatory registry of clerics and places of worship and the monitoring of sermons.
The Netherlands is experimenting tentatively with required government-financed programs to teach imams ``courses of integration`` about newer Dutch values, including a greater acceptance of euthanasia and drug use.
Under new regulations in Britain, Muslim imams and other ``ministers of religion`` wishing to enter Britain to work must show a basic command of English.
Islam does not require its prayer leaders to have a formal degree of learning in religion. An imam does not have to be an Islamic scholar but can be anyone that a community of believers appoints.
``In Italy,`` said Omar Danilo Speranza, president of the Association of Italian Muslims, an umbrella group, ``even a butcher can call himself an imam.``
Mr. Speranza said his organization will begin certifying imams it believes are competent, that is, those ``who have a reading of the Koran that is more peaceful, more oriented towards love.``
But for many Muslim communities in Europe, personal and ethnic ties with their imam are often more important than an outside seal of approval.
``The idea of producing imams is still controversial,`` said James P. Piscatori, an American who is a professor of Islamic politics at Oxford University. ``On the one hand, you want your own imams because the imported ones are seen as conveyor belts for bad ideas. On the other hand, the communities say, `Who are you to tell us who our imam should be or how he should be trained?` ``
Perhaps the biggest obstacle to creating the profession here in Europe is money: it is hard to make a living as an imam.
``An imam is not an official position; it`s poorly paid and there`s no security,`` said Olivier Roy, the French scholar on Islam. ``Why should a bright young French or British boy spend five years studying Islam only to find that there`s no real job, that the community just wants someone to lead the prayers and conduct weddings and funerals?``
Indeed, among the graduates of the institute in Burgundy are would-be teachers and counselors, but very few imams. Many students come only for the two-year Arabic-language program. Last year, only one graduate became a bona fide imam with a job in a mosque.
``I did business-marketing at home and that`s all about how you sell your product and my product is Islam,`` said Fahimul Anam, a 31-year-old Briton born in Bangladesh who dreams of work in education management. ``I don`t necessarily feel I have to become an imam to do that.``
Complicating matters is that the French government regards the Union of Islamic Organizations, the movement that runs the Burgundy school, as well as branches in Wales and in a suburb of Paris, as potentially dangerous.
The organization derives its inspiration from the banned Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, emphasizes personal purification and grass-roots proselytizing and aims to influence all aspects of a Muslim`s life. Mr. Mahmood, the director, made headlines eight years ago when he won a lawsuit requiring the local high school in the nearby town of Château-Chinon to allow his two daughters to cover their hair in class.
Last March, 100 followers of the far right-wing National Front party staged a demonstration in the town demanding that the Burgundy school be closed, calling it a hotbed of extremism that was producing Europe`s ``future political-religious agitators.``
In west London, the Muslim College, financed by a Libyan foundation connected to the government, similarly turns out students who have studied Arabic and Islamic studies but few imams.
``If the authorities would pay them, they`d all become imams,`` said Zaki Badawi, its Egyptian director. ``They find temptation elsewhere.``
Rivalries within Muslim communities have made it more difficult to forge a common approach to imams.
Since its founding in 1998, the Islamic University of Rotterdam claims to have trained about 20 practicing imams, according to Gokcekus Ertogrul, the university`s secretary general.
But in recent years, according to some scholars, the university has increasingly been financed and come under the influence of an Islamic movement in Turkey, and has been criticized for losing its Dutch character.
``Much of what they say about their students is not true,`` said Johan Hendrik Meuleman, a fellow at Oxford University`s Center for Islamic Studies who was once a volunteer lecturer at the university. ``Volunteers like me didn`t accept the takeover from Turkey.``
Mr. Ertogrul fiercely denies the charges.
In 2001, Mr. Meuleman helped create the Islamic University of Europe outside of Rotterdam, intended to train Muslim chaplains for hospitals, prisons and the military and perhaps a small number of imams.
Using municipal financing, Mr. Meuleman already has given Dutch language training and a course in Dutch culture to a group of imams living and working in The Hague.
Another problem in training imams inside Europe is deciding who is qualified to do it. Dalil Boubakeur, the director of the main mosque of Paris, and president of a French nationwide Islamic council sanctioned by the state, is proud of his fledgling imam-training school.
``We are forming a cadre of imams who speak French and can relate to the young Muslims of France,`` Mr. Boubakeur said.
But both the mosque and the school are financed by the Algerian government, and that makes them suspect in the minds of some experts.
``It is not a real school,`` said Mr. Roy, perhaps France`s most respected scholar of Islam. ``It is just a tool of Boubakeur`s power.``
Meanwhile, Mr. Boubakeur criticized the school in Burgundy because it teaches all its courses in Arabic, not French, and he has branded its parent organization ``fundamentalist.``
Among the imams who have done their studies in Europe, there are different assessments about how the programs have worked.
Vicente Motta al-Faro, 29, a Spanish convert to Islam and the sole graduate of the Burgundy school last year, could not find a job as an imam and is about to start a job teaching Islamic culture at a center in Valencia. Becoming an imam, he said, ``depends on which Muslim community has money, which few have.``
Chedli Meskini, by contrast, a 38-year-old Tunisian-born French citizen who completed a four-year course at the school in 1997, was luckier. He landed a full-time job at a mosque in Le Havre, where he preaches in both French and Arabic.
``These days, imams are in hot demand,`` he said. ``And to find an Arabic and French-speaking imam, well, I don`t want to say it like this, but they need people like me.``
Mr. Meskini`s salary: $8.90 an hour, less than France`s minimum wage.
#67 Posted by arjun_m on October 18, 2004 7:49:13 am
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#66 Posted by arjun_m on October 18, 2004 7:49:13 am
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#65 Posted by jang on October 18, 2004 7:49:13 am
DRUMZ
here is how it works (keep the bong aside to read this). you get terrrorism when hopeless folks are given false hope by afeem of religion or communism. is that right? there are other ways, just because they are harder to find does not mean we should pander to simple-minded and childish religious packaging of terrorism.
here is how it works (keep the bong aside to read this). you get terrrorism when hopeless folks are given false hope by afeem of religion or communism. is that right? there are other ways, just because they are harder to find does not mean we should pander to simple-minded and childish religious packaging of terrorism.
#64 Posted by BruceLee on October 18, 2004 6:03:57 am
Drumz
Why is there not a religious component in those terrorist movements?
#63 Posted by DRUMZ on October 17, 2004 8:40:15 pm
Mohar: Should muslims work to end the absolute idiocy prevelent in the muslim world? I would certainly agree. Now i dont see at all the comparison between the west and Islam. The west has caused far more destruction and genocide in the world (its not even close). By the way im just shooting the breeze with you guys. Most of the ``anti Islamic`` opinions are true in spirit, they just arent being said in an objective manner.
Arjun: You could turn the argument around but it would do u no good because whatever Islam has done is not even close to what the west has done. America was certainly asking for it. Look at its foriegn policy. Micronesia is prolly the only country america hasnt gangraped in the past 50 years..... Saudi arabia is not a muslim hot spot for terrorism. they just finance the terrorism because they align themselves with oppressed muslims just like you being a hindu/indian align yourself with hindus and indians. Muslim hot spots for terrorism are chechnya, palestine, iraq and afghanistan (((POVERTY))).
Bin laden USEs Islam to suit his political agenda. Anyone who has studied war In an Islamic context would know this but this is chowk, the place where no one bothers studying other religions. By the way I dont say this as a muslim apologist, im saying it as an objective student of religion. Read up on how war is suppose to be fought in an Islamic way and you will see that none of these insurgents and ``holy warriors`` are fighting an Islamic war. They are using islam to suit their needs. Your point about gujrat was a good one. The point I made earlier was intentionally a very emotional one. Would joining a terrorist unit be a wise thing to do? likely not, yet i can certainly undertsand if the father of the girl would consider it.
Brucelee: If we really go deep into Catholic terrorism my argument would be too easily won. Now I am not up to par with my south asian politics but i am aware of the marxist rebellions in nepal which are largely economically based. There are also what 30 million separatist movements in the whole of india, many of which represent the economically downtrodden. Go to the slums of jamaica, haiti, somalia, nigeria, brazil. what are the common denominators? POVERTY and gangs, terrorism and lawlessness.
Arjun: You could turn the argument around but it would do u no good because whatever Islam has done is not even close to what the west has done. America was certainly asking for it. Look at its foriegn policy. Micronesia is prolly the only country america hasnt gangraped in the past 50 years..... Saudi arabia is not a muslim hot spot for terrorism. they just finance the terrorism because they align themselves with oppressed muslims just like you being a hindu/indian align yourself with hindus and indians. Muslim hot spots for terrorism are chechnya, palestine, iraq and afghanistan (((POVERTY))).
Bin laden USEs Islam to suit his political agenda. Anyone who has studied war In an Islamic context would know this but this is chowk, the place where no one bothers studying other religions. By the way I dont say this as a muslim apologist, im saying it as an objective student of religion. Read up on how war is suppose to be fought in an Islamic way and you will see that none of these insurgents and ``holy warriors`` are fighting an Islamic war. They are using islam to suit their needs. Your point about gujrat was a good one. The point I made earlier was intentionally a very emotional one. Would joining a terrorist unit be a wise thing to do? likely not, yet i can certainly undertsand if the father of the girl would consider it.
Brucelee: If we really go deep into Catholic terrorism my argument would be too easily won. Now I am not up to par with my south asian politics but i am aware of the marxist rebellions in nepal which are largely economically based. There are also what 30 million separatist movements in the whole of india, many of which represent the economically downtrodden. Go to the slums of jamaica, haiti, somalia, nigeria, brazil. what are the common denominators? POVERTY and gangs, terrorism and lawlessness.
#62 Posted by DRUMZ on October 17, 2004 8:40:15 pm
Mohar: PALESTINE and Israel are an even match? ARE YOU KIDDING ME????? Tanks vs stones is even? Just look at the number of people who are dead from both sides.
Afghanistan is a good war? They had mock elections in which 15 candidtates dropped out. The nation has no governemnt and no order outside of kabul and more opium production now then when the taliban was in power.
Iraq: No one would dream of justifying this war. Its all about the OIL.
Saudis and pakis have the money and a political agenda. I do not doubt that some of them are stupid enuff to actually believe that what they are doing is Islamic. You guys do make a good point on that. However, These guys wouldnt have any clout in the Islamic world if It were as financially stable as the west.
(((((((((((((((The rhetoric they spew is considered agreeable by some only because of the current political and economic backwardness of the muslim world.))))))))))))))))
Very important point here. This pint establishes that the root is not religious but an economic/political one.
Afghanistan is a good war? They had mock elections in which 15 candidtates dropped out. The nation has no governemnt and no order outside of kabul and more opium production now then when the taliban was in power.
Iraq: No one would dream of justifying this war. Its all about the OIL.
Saudis and pakis have the money and a political agenda. I do not doubt that some of them are stupid enuff to actually believe that what they are doing is Islamic. You guys do make a good point on that. However, These guys wouldnt have any clout in the Islamic world if It were as financially stable as the west.
(((((((((((((((The rhetoric they spew is considered agreeable by some only because of the current political and economic backwardness of the muslim world.))))))))))))))))
Very important point here. This pint establishes that the root is not religious but an economic/political one.
#61 Posted by mohar11 on October 17, 2004 7:08:34 pm
drum
//...Where are the hot spots in extremist Islam? CHECHNYA, PALESTINE, IRAQ, AFGHANISTAN....//
Wrong! Hot spots are Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. That`s where lie the jiahd breeding factories - the ground zero of islamic extremism.
Chechnya: The western position is actually favored towards chechens. It`s the russians who are miffed - because the west asks them to talk with chechens.
Palestine: if israeli soldier pumped 20 bullets into a palestine girl - there are also israeli girls who have been blown to pieces by palestine suicide bomber. The match is even here- so the less said, the better. Moreover - the europeans are favored towards palestine, even though US is not. So the ``West`` is not single block on this one.
Afgan: this one is the ``good`` war. Taliban had to be decimated. Afgans just voted in first ever election. Yeah, we know it was flawed.
Iraq: the jury is still out on this one - but this one certainly looks like a ``bad`` war. Again - europeans were against it from the beginning.
+++++
Anycase - if and when the next big terror bang strikes the ``west`` , it may not be by Palis, chechens, iraqis or afganis. You could bet it`s going to be another bunch of Saudis and Pakis.
//...Where are the hot spots in extremist Islam? CHECHNYA, PALESTINE, IRAQ, AFGHANISTAN....//
Wrong! Hot spots are Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. That`s where lie the jiahd breeding factories - the ground zero of islamic extremism.
Chechnya: The western position is actually favored towards chechens. It`s the russians who are miffed - because the west asks them to talk with chechens.
Palestine: if israeli soldier pumped 20 bullets into a palestine girl - there are also israeli girls who have been blown to pieces by palestine suicide bomber. The match is even here- so the less said, the better. Moreover - the europeans are favored towards palestine, even though US is not. So the ``West`` is not single block on this one.
Afgan: this one is the ``good`` war. Taliban had to be decimated. Afgans just voted in first ever election. Yeah, we know it was flawed.
Iraq: the jury is still out on this one - but this one certainly looks like a ``bad`` war. Again - europeans were against it from the beginning.
+++++
Anycase - if and when the next big terror bang strikes the ``west`` , it may not be by Palis, chechens, iraqis or afganis. You could bet it`s going to be another bunch of Saudis and Pakis.
#60 Posted by BruceLee on October 17, 2004 5:23:43 pm
drumz
``WHere are Extremists most prevelent? ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS in areas where jobs are minimal and hope is lost``
Why are Catholic terrorists not coming out of the slums of Manila, why are Hindu suicide bombers coming out of the slums of Calcutta, why are Buddhist terrorists from Nepal not flying Airplanes into New York?
Hmmm....i wonder why....
``WHere are Extremists most prevelent? ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS in areas where jobs are minimal and hope is lost``
Why are Catholic terrorists not coming out of the slums of Manila, why are Hindu suicide bombers coming out of the slums of Calcutta, why are Buddhist terrorists from Nepal not flying Airplanes into New York?
Hmmm....i wonder why....
#59 Posted by arjun_m on October 17, 2004 5:23:43 pm
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#58 Posted by mohar11 on October 17, 2004 5:23:43 pm
Drum
//Simply because i dont give a sh1t about what most muslims think...//
I thought you did. Otherwise why would this discussion start in the first place??
Anyway - my point was that, those who are giving elaborate excuses for backwardness of muslims should turn their energies inward. Instead of railing against those who point out the obvious flaws - they must spend time to create an awareness about the mindless orthodoxy that is so prevalent among the muslim communities. Saudi Arabia is a good place to start.
+++
//...Why are you not bringing up the terrorism of the west such as that of america and britain?...//
Because I don`t have to. Westerners themselves are already doing it - millions of british have marched against war in Iraq - Tony Blair is already on the dock for this mis-adventure, he might loose his job for this. At least 50% of the americans think war in iraq has gone horribly wrong - there is a chance that they may give Bush the boot.
If mistakes and mis-adventures were not being punished and corrected, the West wouldn`t be where it is now.
Unfortunately the same cannot be said about muslims - they are frozen in time and slipping back further.
//Simply because i dont give a sh1t about what most muslims think...//
I thought you did. Otherwise why would this discussion start in the first place??
Anyway - my point was that, those who are giving elaborate excuses for backwardness of muslims should turn their energies inward. Instead of railing against those who point out the obvious flaws - they must spend time to create an awareness about the mindless orthodoxy that is so prevalent among the muslim communities. Saudi Arabia is a good place to start.
+++
//...Why are you not bringing up the terrorism of the west such as that of america and britain?...//
Because I don`t have to. Westerners themselves are already doing it - millions of british have marched against war in Iraq - Tony Blair is already on the dock for this mis-adventure, he might loose his job for this. At least 50% of the americans think war in iraq has gone horribly wrong - there is a chance that they may give Bush the boot.
If mistakes and mis-adventures were not being punished and corrected, the West wouldn`t be where it is now.
Unfortunately the same cannot be said about muslims - they are frozen in time and slipping back further.
#57 Posted by DRUMZ on October 17, 2004 3:39:11 pm
Arjun: The thing here is that I may be against bin laden HOWEVER if you look at a broader context, 9/11 was detined to happen. I am not necessarily glad that innocent people died during the 9/11 attacks however I am glad that for once the real terrorists got a taste of their medicine.
I know a lot of muslims are too scared to say that these days but fukk it. There is no country in the history of the world which has caused more death and destruction then america has. That bin laden or whoever touched america up is simply karma.Infact, if i was living in palestine and i had just seen my family being killed via american made bombs i would probably be a ``terrorist`` too.
I urge u again to name one Muslim hot spot for terrorism which is not economically or politically backward and currupt. Name one.
Ive already shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that these actions done by al Qaeda and others are ECONOMICAL and politcial not religious. That they use the banner of Islam im sure does fool those who arent critical thinkers.
As for your story, there are millions of people just like her who decide to get an education and what not. That may be the better way to go. However, tell that to the father of the 13 year old palestinian girl who was shot up 20 times by some israeli. Tell him to get his kiddies a better education. Sh1t If i was that man i would sign up the next day with hezbollah.
I know a lot of muslims are too scared to say that these days but fukk it. There is no country in the history of the world which has caused more death and destruction then america has. That bin laden or whoever touched america up is simply karma.Infact, if i was living in palestine and i had just seen my family being killed via american made bombs i would probably be a ``terrorist`` too.
I urge u again to name one Muslim hot spot for terrorism which is not economically or politically backward and currupt. Name one.
Ive already shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that these actions done by al Qaeda and others are ECONOMICAL and politcial not religious. That they use the banner of Islam im sure does fool those who arent critical thinkers.
As for your story, there are millions of people just like her who decide to get an education and what not. That may be the better way to go. However, tell that to the father of the 13 year old palestinian girl who was shot up 20 times by some israeli. Tell him to get his kiddies a better education. Sh1t If i was that man i would sign up the next day with hezbollah.
#56 Posted by DRUMZ on October 17, 2004 9:34:37 am
Mohar: In dealing with spirituality, it is best for us to refine ourselves then to waste our time trying to show others the light. I did, when i was muslim, try to spread some tolerance, but the thing though is most muslims are fairly tolerant people (the desis i come accross, i dono much about the saudis). The problem with them and the problem with nearly all religious people is that they do not allow thmselves to think outside of their religion.
Religious people believe there is just one true religion .... and of course it just so happened that they were born into that religion. To argue with a person as breathtakingly stupid as this would make a reasonable person just as foolish.
Why do i not run around to saudi arabia and preach tolerant Islam? Simply because i dont give a sh1t about what most muslims think. If people want to blindly follow some dead man then its upto them.
There is a sufi saying ``the river leads to the ocean, do not confuse the river for the ocean.`` Religion MAY lead to the absolute, that doesnt make religion absolute though. Because i recognise that notion, i dont waste my time trying to preserve or purify an inherently curruptING system.
Now, dont cloudy up the issue by bringing up who the financers of these ``jihads`` are. Where are the hot spots in extremist Islam? CHECHNYA, PALESTINE, IRAQ, AFGHANISTAN. Hmmmm. Not try and connect the dots and find out why is it that extremists are prevelent here and not elsewhere? U think the economy and politics have anything to do with it?
And i do ask you again sir, Why are you not bringing up the terrorism of the west such as that of america and britain? Is their terrorism okay because they are white, or because they are christian or is it okay because they confuse us by calling their terrorism ``war``?
Religious people believe there is just one true religion .... and of course it just so happened that they were born into that religion. To argue with a person as breathtakingly stupid as this would make a reasonable person just as foolish.
Why do i not run around to saudi arabia and preach tolerant Islam? Simply because i dont give a sh1t about what most muslims think. If people want to blindly follow some dead man then its upto them.
There is a sufi saying ``the river leads to the ocean, do not confuse the river for the ocean.`` Religion MAY lead to the absolute, that doesnt make religion absolute though. Because i recognise that notion, i dont waste my time trying to preserve or purify an inherently curruptING system.
Now, dont cloudy up the issue by bringing up who the financers of these ``jihads`` are. Where are the hot spots in extremist Islam? CHECHNYA, PALESTINE, IRAQ, AFGHANISTAN. Hmmmm. Not try and connect the dots and find out why is it that extremists are prevelent here and not elsewhere? U think the economy and politics have anything to do with it?
And i do ask you again sir, Why are you not bringing up the terrorism of the west such as that of america and britain? Is their terrorism okay because they are white, or because they are christian or is it okay because they confuse us by calling their terrorism ``war``?
#55 Posted by arjun_m on October 17, 2004 9:34:37 am
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#54 Posted by Siddiqua on October 17, 2004 7:53:33 am
Perhaps what is required to be done is to draw a distinction between Islam, one of the 5 major world religions, and Islamism, a political doctrine subscribed to a very miniscule minority of Muslims.
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