Gibran Bham October 13, 2004
#37 Posted by mohar11 on October 15, 2004 2:38:08 pm
#33 by nina7
//...expansive over generalization about the ``other`` side...//
May be I am over-generalizing. But until I see some signs of alternative voices strong enough and loud enough and in large numbers .... trying to beat a separate/moderate path for vast multitudes for muslims .... trying to lead them out the current darkness of extreme orthodoxy .... I am inclined to stick with the generalization.
Until such time when an enlightened leadership emerges to reform islam and muslims, it would be a mistake to accord benefit of doubt to folks who have historically, consistently accepted and practiced orthodoxy, isolationism and exteremist ideologies bordering on fascism. They have either actively participated in propagating such extremism around the world ... or have condoned such practices under all sorts excuses.
Time for any further excuses has run out. Time to reform is ... now!!!
//...expansive over generalization about the ``other`` side...//
May be I am over-generalizing. But until I see some signs of alternative voices strong enough and loud enough and in large numbers .... trying to beat a separate/moderate path for vast multitudes for muslims .... trying to lead them out the current darkness of extreme orthodoxy .... I am inclined to stick with the generalization.
Until such time when an enlightened leadership emerges to reform islam and muslims, it would be a mistake to accord benefit of doubt to folks who have historically, consistently accepted and practiced orthodoxy, isolationism and exteremist ideologies bordering on fascism. They have either actively participated in propagating such extremism around the world ... or have condoned such practices under all sorts excuses.
Time for any further excuses has run out. Time to reform is ... now!!!
#36 Posted by mohar11 on October 15, 2004 2:38:07 pm
#35 by Ralph
//...Majority of Muslims may or not be followers of Islam...//
I think you may have to reconsider this statement. To suggest that Majority of muslims may NOT be followers of Islam - could be considered almost bordering on blasphemy.
Regarding ``majority among the Muslims who speak up`` - well, I am not sure we should be doing such hair-splitting at this point of time.
//...Majority of Muslims may or not be followers of Islam...//
I think you may have to reconsider this statement. To suggest that Majority of muslims may NOT be followers of Islam - could be considered almost bordering on blasphemy.
Regarding ``majority among the Muslims who speak up`` - well, I am not sure we should be doing such hair-splitting at this point of time.
#35 Posted by Ralph on October 15, 2004 1:29:21 pm
Mohar11
We can`t really be sure about the `majority.` Majority of Muslims may or not be followers of Islam.
However the `majority among the Muslims who speak up` does meet your description. And they are the only people who do and should count.
We can`t really be sure about the `majority.` Majority of Muslims may or not be followers of Islam.
However the `majority among the Muslims who speak up` does meet your description. And they are the only people who do and should count.
#34 Posted by Ralph on October 15, 2004 1:29:21 pm
Mohar11
We can`t really be sure about the `majority.` Majority of Muslims may or not be followers of Islam.
However the `majority among the Muslims who speak up` does meet your description. And they are the only people who do and should count.
We can`t really be sure about the `majority.` Majority of Muslims may or not be followers of Islam.
However the `majority among the Muslims who speak up` does meet your description. And they are the only people who do and should count.
#33 Posted by Nina7 on October 15, 2004 1:29:19 pm
mohar 11
however your insight, and expansive over generalization about the ``other`` side in such matters does not seem to be any different than the people you are talking about .
however your insight, and expansive over generalization about the ``other`` side in such matters does not seem to be any different than the people you are talking about .
#32 Posted by mohar11 on October 15, 2004 10:19:57 am
Is Islam Anti-Semitic?
Of course! Atually Islam is anti-any-other-religion. One of the major trait of Islam as practiced widely today is - ``my way or the highway``. The concept of kufr is very strong and widely accepted and practiced.
Of course! Atually Islam is anti-any-other-religion. One of the major trait of Islam as practiced widely today is - ``my way or the highway``. The concept of kufr is very strong and widely accepted and practiced.
#31 Posted by mohar11 on October 15, 2004 10:19:57 am
#30 by Mordant_Muslim
//..Oh bologna! ..//
Not it`s not. Arjun is right. Islam (or any other ideology/religion) is defined by the way it is practiced.
Majority of muslims in arab and wannabe-arab countries(like pakistan) believe Islam is the only way. They hate kafirs. They have been yearning for the day when the mythical past glory will come back and islam will lord over everybody else in the world. Their fascist fantasies are no secret at all.
But of course - it will remain fantasy.
//..Oh bologna! ..//
Not it`s not. Arjun is right. Islam (or any other ideology/religion) is defined by the way it is practiced.
Majority of muslims in arab and wannabe-arab countries(like pakistan) believe Islam is the only way. They hate kafirs. They have been yearning for the day when the mythical past glory will come back and islam will lord over everybody else in the world. Their fascist fantasies are no secret at all.
But of course - it will remain fantasy.
#30 Posted by Mordant_Muslim on October 15, 2004 1:14:22 am
Arjun:
``religion gets defined by the actions of the majority of it`s practitioners....A majority of muslims DO believe in the ``protocols of the elders of zion``...Pakistani newspaper editorials regularly quote that forgery or use references to it...``
Oh bologna!
#29 Posted by soysauce on October 14, 2004 9:28:25 pm
#11 vertex
Over the last 4 years I have slowly come to a place where I think the existence of Israel is a huge mistake. It`s not an easy position for me to be in given that I have many good Israeli friends. That said, the stance that it is somehow virtuous that the Palestinians have not been absorbed into other countries is a bit like the old adage about destroying something in order to save it. Palestinians are as much resourceful as Israelis and it`s enormous crime that they have not been allowed to live their lives in peace.
Over the last 4 years I have slowly come to a place where I think the existence of Israel is a huge mistake. It`s not an easy position for me to be in given that I have many good Israeli friends. That said, the stance that it is somehow virtuous that the Palestinians have not been absorbed into other countries is a bit like the old adage about destroying something in order to save it. Palestinians are as much resourceful as Israelis and it`s enormous crime that they have not been allowed to live their lives in peace.
#28 Posted by harish_hyd on October 14, 2004 9:28:25 pm
#15 by haji004
[Second point is that perhaps no muslim is ``anti-jewish``, what muslims all around the world vehemently oppose is ``Zionism``, and being ``anti-zionist`` is not being``anti-jewish`` because many jews are also ``anti-zionist``]
Oh! So Daniel Pearl was a Zionist?
[Second point is that perhaps no muslim is ``anti-jewish``, what muslims all around the world vehemently oppose is ``Zionism``, and being ``anti-zionist`` is not being``anti-jewish`` because many jews are also ``anti-zionist``]
Oh! So Daniel Pearl was a Zionist?
#27 Posted by Nina7 on October 14, 2004 4:34:48 pm
#Vertex
Do you write for Chowk ? I like the way you approach an argument.
Do you write for Chowk ? I like the way you approach an argument.
#26 Posted by nikki7777 on October 14, 2004 1:36:59 pm
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#25 Posted by arjun_m on October 14, 2004 1:29:14 pm
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#24 Posted by Mordant_Muslim on October 14, 2004 11:31:40 am
Gibran,
Although I found the article fascinating and concomitant, I do have a problem with the title however. You didn`t answer your question whether ``Islam`` is anti-Semitic or not. Of course it is obvious that Islam is NOT anti-Semitic given the Semitic hyperbole that is prevalent in Islam`s structure. But your article intends to drill the point home that Islam is not anti-Jewish (while making Semitic synonymous with Jews and exclusively with Jews). One does not need to sift through the ambivalent contemporary Muslim attitudes towards Jews to notice that ``Islamism`` is in complete contradistinction. After all, ``anti-Semitic`` jargon began with Christianity`s consequential and perfidious break with 1st century Judaism. To demonstrate the prevarication of contemporary Muslim thought, I think you could have provided some Qu`ranic verses to give substance to your article. Nevertheless, the links were helpful and purvey.
--Ibn
#23 Posted by Gandiv on October 14, 2004 11:15:58 am
Wonder why Parsis (the orginal inhabitants of Persia, today`s Iran) had to leave if Muslims were so to tolerant.
Parsis landed in India(Gujarat to be precise) with a story that Muslims persecuted them and asked them to either embrace Islam or Death.
May be Islam means peace, but only for Muslims, not for jahiliyas.
Parsis landed in India(Gujarat to be precise) with a story that Muslims persecuted them and asked them to either embrace Islam or Death.
May be Islam means peace, but only for Muslims, not for jahiliyas.
#22 Posted by nasah on October 14, 2004 9:51:34 am
semantically -- Islam itself is a semitic religion -- could it be against itself -- not improbable....Militant Judiasm is virulently antisemitic -- it is antiarab..
....orthodoxy in Islam is a gift from its mother relgion Judiasm....
....orthodoxy in Islam is a gift from its mother relgion Judiasm....
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