No Compromise on Murder

Where have you gone urstruly? You did not reply to my quesion whether you cosider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad a false prophet on technical gounds only, i.e.,he having been time-barred in claiming his prophethood or consider him disqualified for the job on merit. In other words would you have accepted his claim if it had been within the time allowed for prophethood? Do you know that according to the Quran a similar claim regarding finality of prophethood was made in respect of the prophet Yousaf but that could not stop the advent of prophets, genuine or false. They were all rejected on merit as no body seem to have rejected any of them by invoking the time bar.

29 by Urstruly

Excuse me dear Urstruly you seem to have got provoked and become presumptuously personal. How did you pesume that I am a `Quadiani`? Was it an `Ilham` of Mirza type? So you are also guilty of trying to break the seal of finalty of communication between man and his God. I may tell you that I have signed and submitted the `Halafnama` which is obligatory to be treated oficially as a Muslim in Pakistan when actually I may be worse than a Quadiani as according to my faith the most wicked thing in a man is `Takabbar` and `Gheebat` and one commits both these sins in signing that halaf nama.

By the way you reject the claim of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to prophethood purely on techical grounds of inability of God to open a dialogue with man fom certain date onwards. Does this mean that you accept his claim on merit.

29 by Jang

``as an outsider to the faith, i find several quoted hadeeth very childish and do not invoke any reverence whatsoever..is it due to the translations or lack of context?``

THese Ahadeeth are quite authentic as these are quoted in the compilation of Sunnan Abudawud which is included in the `Suha Sitta`, the Six Authentic compilatins of Ahadeeih. In fact the Fundamentalists quote the Hadeeth about lynching of a slave woman by a blind Sahabi in support of the Law of Blasphemy whereas the enlightened moderates touch their ears on hearing such Ahadeeth. On the face of it the hadeeth in question sees to be blasphemic as it negates the image of the Prophet as ``Rehmatulaalimin``, so cherished by the Muslim, but who dares to speak against the mullah with his terrorist outfit.

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i knew it. its the fasting. thanks for the link urstruly. of the two hadith, i found the one about old woman kind of simple-minded and second one sligtly more profound. offcourse, in a right state of mind, even Anand Bakshi (hindi song) lyrics are sometimes profound. like i said, for a non-believer like me, the hadiths seen on chowk make me wonder if they are ill-translated or out of context. i suspect you have to get into it to get it.

now good food .. i get that easily.

Urstruly,

... considering how profusely your nose is bleeding, I think your fast is technically over ...

Do explain to Jang the hadith … “whoever changes his religion, kill him”. I am sure he would be astounded by its depth and beauty.

Yaar … you sound a bit naraaz … was it something I said? (but first, can you spell 4-0-1-k?)

++++++++++++++

Teshah / Jang …

Sometime ago I quoted this hadith to Urstruly (where a pregnant slave was killed for blasphemy). He went berserk … and started rambling … what do you expect … Muhammad was also a human like you and me … and may have made mistakes …etc. etc..

I asked, “fair enough ... but if he was a human like you and me, why do you ignore Quran and instead follow ahadith?”. To this, mullah Urstruly did not respond. Considering his ramblings in recent posts, he still seems to be suffering from earlier psychological wounds.

And such is the sad state of ignorant mullahs …

Jang

I think you havn`t been looking very hard or you haven`t even looked before casting your judgement. The fact of the matter is that almost every book that is written on the biography of Prophet (pbuh) contain chapters on the words of wisdom that he said. These ahadith are also categorized as biographical, his humor, his wisdom, his laws etc. Please keep in mind that he was a religious leader in his entirety so most of his words of wisdom revolve around the set of beliefs he promoted throughout his life.

An example of his humor is mentioned in a hadith where upon seeing a very old woman offering her prayers he said ``No old woman will ever go to heaven``. Upon hearing this, woman was quite shocked and started to sobb. Prophet comforted that woman and said ``God will make everyone youthful prior to enetring the heaven``.

In another hadith which contains very profound explanation on the meaning of life narrates that once he was sitting among his companions with a twig in his hand. With that twig he drew a rectangle in the ground and then drew a line that originated from the center of triangle and cut through one of its side extending outward. Then he asked his companions that if the size of rectangle had a direct relationship (directly propotional) with the size of the line then would the rectangle ever outgrow the line. The companions replied that it was not possible. Then he explained that the rectangle represents the biological age of man and line represents his desires and wishes. Man`s desires and wishes always exceed his natural age. Man wants to live for ever, and keeps hoping that his desires will be fulfilled but he always dies with desires unfulfilled. This explanation then follows by a sermon where he explained that how it is necessary for man to try to limit his desires and fulfil the purpose for which he was sent on earth i.e. obedience to God and being kind to His creation.

I cannot recall the name of a book in English, but there are several resources available on web where his words of wisdom have been collated. One such website is;

http://www.islamfortoday.com/athar16.htm


Sattar:

I am fasting. I have nothing more to say to you.

Urstruly … (#25):

Didn’t mean to hurt you … so must ask … was it something I said?

… maybe it was the reference to your smelly attire at the visa office … or the scorn in the officer’s eye … or knowing that for a 401k plan, you’ve quietly traded izaat of your sisters to your white masters (to employ your lingo). We’ve all wondered this about you … don’t disappoint us now ...

Moving on …

Crushing Ahmadis should not be your objective … it can`t be ... you can no longer afford it. It has already cost you much time and resources, with no results to show. And now you’ve got big problems … as the infidel armies and corporations kick you all over the globe ...

Correctly identify the enemy first … or you’ll continue to suffer humiliation and destruction. There`s not much time left ... pal.

Nature has brutally punished idiots throughout the course of evolution. You are not the first one.

#27 by teshah

as an outsider to the faith, i find several quoted hadeeth very childish and do not invoke any reverence whatsoever..is it due to the translations or lack of context?

zen stories however sound deep (even when i dont get them).

hindu puranic stories are totally fantastic, but then then noone goes around quoting them.

teshah

Doesn`t it sound quite hypocritical for a Quadiani to point to such a hadith as you did it in your post. Well if you accept this hadith to be true (which I do by the way), then you must also accept 450+ ahadith that explain the Finalty of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) from every possible angle. Isn`t it true that when Quadianis are pointed towards those hadith they say that those ahadith were invented by moulvis for their ulterior motives. Well, doesn`t the common sense suggest that if moulvis can alter hadith at their will then shouldn`t they hide such ahadith like one you wrote in your post, after all such ahadith aparently refute their claims that Prophet (pbuh) was a prophet of mercy and compassion for all worlds?

As the urdu proverb goes, Quadiani want ``chupRi aur dou dou``. Sharam karo bayghairto.

hamidm

Sir, as you are a man of principle, I hope you will apply the same principles to us that you hold dear for yourself. Many time you have praised US, that it went after Soviets to end the scourge of that evil doctrine of communism. You praise them for fighting hot and cold wars all around the globe to end communism. Please explain to me why only Americans have all the fun? Why can`t we have our McCarthy to persecute Quadianis? Why can`t we put them in concentration camps like they did to Japanese and Muslims? Why can`t we force them to leave the country for fear of persecution like Americans forced thousands of Muslims who fled to Canada and elsewhere for fear of persecution. Why cant we have our Gitmo and Abu Ghariab? I also want to put hoods on Quadiani heads. Even Hindus are having fun. Why can`t I have my pogrom too?

`Most cases result in one or the other compromise, thus allowing murderers to go free, even though Pakistani law does not contain any provision which allows the offence of murder to be mitigated. Contrary to common belief, Islam also explicitly forbids such killing in the name of ghairat or honour.`
My dear Beena, Sharia allows to lynch even a disobedient woman as per Hadees` of Sunnan Abudawud reproduced hereunder : -
Book 38, Number 4348:
Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:

A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was informed about it.

He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.

He sat before the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.

Thereupon the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood.

---

Book 38, Number 4403:
Narrated Ubadah ibn as-Samit:

The people said to Sa`d ibn Ubadah: AbuThabit, the prescribed punishments have been revealed: if you find a man with your wife, what will you do?

He said: I shall strike them with a sword so much that they become silent (i.e. die). Should I go and gather four witnesses? Until that (time) the need would be fulfilled.

So they went away and gathered with the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Apostle of Allah! did you not see AbuThabit. He said so-and-so.

The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: The sword is a sufficient witness. He then said: No, no, a furious and a jealous man may follow this course.

---

So please don`t open this Pandora`s Box. Men have been warned in Quranic to be careful about their women whom they fear to be rebllious as they may use their weapon of sex to incite their paramour to murder the husband and then get it compounded or simply cover it as a dacoity. In this Connection please see verse 34 of Sura Nissa as below: -

``Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding the secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those, from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them (punish them severely). Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great``. (Translation by Pickthal)

``Quadiani fitna will be crushed and expelled from all Muslim lands unless they stop calling themselves Muslims.``........... now we have seen the true face of evil

Sattar

I hope by now you know what is meant by yanking the chain. I also hope you`ve learned something today from the best in the business.

Urstruly,

More regarding your post #17 …

Ahamdis have lived in Pakistan for ages … like other Pakistanis. Persecuting them and giving them a choice to leave … is beneath dignity (at least my dignity, obviously not yours). To make it easier for you to grasp … it is a bit like the Israeli government pushing out Palestinians further … and letting them live in the name of compassion. Got it?

You, on the other hand, stood in long lines at the US embassy, diligently submitted your paper work to the visa officer, and grinned sheepishly as he scornfully glanced at your unwashed, filthy attire, your unkempt shar’aie beard, your smelly presence ... You were ecstatic when he took pity on you and stamped your passport … and submissively joined the long line at the immigration post at an east coast airport … beyond which you could openly start bashing the USA.

This is the same white man … and the institution … you blame for ravaging your women and your nation. But you conveniently sold out your sisters and your people … in return for USD paychecks and a 401k plan. A few thousand dollars! Is this what your sisters and your nation worth to you? What a pity …

++++++++++++++++++++

Naqshbandi MiaN …

Problem is that your “Islamic jurisprudence” demands killing people who are innocent in the first place. How else can one explain ... stoning to death a woman for adultery … executing a Hindu for preaching … killing a person for leaving Islam?

What compassion? You are unable to deliver plain ol’ justice first! Justice and civility come way before you can start lecturing others on compassion.

#18 by jang

WTF? i think FSC in pakistan kicks ass?

hamidm

Like I said ``In a pathologically mad frenzy to berate Islam .....``; but unfortunately your original assessment of me is correct.

Sattar

Quadiani fitna will be crushed and expelled from all Muslim lands unless they stop calling themselves Muslims. I don`t see a future for them other than that like of Bi`hais. I beleive that an agressive and concentrated effort at Islamic teachings and preaching will show you people the light. My compassion only goes that far.

urstruly,

...... sorry, i didn`t know that you were simply calling for tort reform , limits on punitive damages, penalties for filing frivolous law suits and abolition of capital punishment because it is simply barbaric ................ if that is the case then i, along with millions of americans and george w bush, am with you ..........

.......... for a minute there i thought you belonged to the crazy and bloody islamic brotherhood that calls for establishing the khilafat in washington and is given to flying planes into tall buildings ....... sorry, again, for the misunderstanding .......

the basis of this law is compassion

---

that it is better to forgive than to exact retribution; thus the murderer may be sentenced to death or he may be forgiven by the relatives...which other system of law has this beautiful clause in it?


i bet if one of the deniers on here was in a situation where they were to be hung and the diyat law existed to let them go free--out of compassion--at the last minute they wouldn`t complain then....

Urstruly,

Facts betray your claims of compassion. Persecution of Ahmadis continues … as your mullahs have openly vowed to crush Ahmadi Muslim movement all over the world. You don’t hear about it since the media is too afraid of mullah to cover it.

I intimately know an Ahmadi gentlemen who was attacked by jamiat students in his hostel at a university in Punjab. They beat him bloody with hockey sticks and left him dying ... with the room lokced from the outside. Fortunately he was able to gather his strength ... and sent a help signal before passing out ... and was eventually rescued.

His own brother spent years on death-row in Pakistan, under Zia, for cooked up charges of murder. This “murder” took place in Punjab … where a mob led by mullahs attacked an Ahmadi mosque. Ahmadis took refuge in back rooms of the mosque, loaded the guns, and fired some shots. A mobster died. This was pure self-defense … no big deal. But Zia and his mullahs wanted to settle the score. They got the wrong guy though … but pressed charges nevertheless. Several judges refused to take the case. Although the case was weak, the judges were reluctant to declare the convict innocent for fear of mob-attacks on their homes.

These Sahib are examples of your compassionate Islam.

On with the story … which you may find interesting. Zia offered the convict a plea deal … where the convict would admit to killing and get a life-sentence or something. The convict’s response was awesome … “I would rather die than bow to the Pharaoh of our times.” Allhamdulillah.

The case languished in the courts for almost a decade. Several times the convict came within 24 hours of being hanged … and was transferred to the kaal kothri … but something or the other got in the way. Eventually, he was released. Ahamdi jammat had his papers ready and he was immediately shipped out of the country, to England, where he is settled with his family to this day. Yes, he had a family … wife, toddlers, and infants… all along his trials. The kids grew up watching their father on death row on false charges. What do you know about compassion? You mullahs are unable to carry out simple justice.

Sahib … such are the people you are dealing with. You know you can’t win. Your Zia had also issued an arrest warrant for Mirza Tahir Ahmed … in efforts to have him hanged. Mirza Tahir Ahmad left the country … and settled in England. Since then, the community has achieved a global outlook … and moved on to become a global jamaat.

So much for your compassionate Islamic system. My foot. My foot. My foot.

Eventually Zia got blown to pieces in the sky. Only his artificial dentures were found. From what I know, the place in Islamabad (?) where his dentures are buried is now known as “jabRRa chowk”. What a cruel reminder of a worthless man … the leader of an equally worthless ummah. Your leaders Faisal and Bhutto were also slaughtered like animals by the Almighty Allah.

So spare me your “compassion” chant. It is hollow rant of a coward … who leads mob attacks against the weak and the innocent during the night … and upon failure, claims compassion during the day.

You mullahs are not worth spitting on ... more later …

SAC and HP,
Good points and I agree. There was one Schumann who in 1947 predicted that Pakistan would fall apart in 50 years. His central theme was the currupt fuedals who had rallied around Jinnah. Though East Pakistan broke away, Pakistan did not fall apart.
In my article on the State and civil Society, I had concluded tye foibles of Pakistan and proposed that the state open more spaces for the society in the spirit of instrumentalism and pluralism. This is a more patriotic way of suggesting an evolving devolutionary process that ultimately leads to a pragmatic Pakistan.

What I dont like about HB is that he picks up themes with the currents of the western perception. Rather than become a more dedicated teacher of physics in the QAU, he wastes so much time on this stuff. The biggest bluff is, and his friend Nayyer`s desire to suddenly change the education system in Pakistan. Why? because uncle Sam wants it, or that he has good friends with Cohen, Kreppon or Rocca who is touring Pakistan and would surely give him audience.

By the way, the matric and FSC syllabus in Pakistan is far superior to the US high school system. These kids compete with the A levels and do well.Just because they deel that history is framed and there is talk of Jihad in Islamyiat etc, they are condemning the whole system.

Cheerios

Sattar

I could also contemptuously ask you that if you feel so miserable in Pakistan then why don`t you all leave, but my compassion for you comes in my way.

Urstruly miaN

``truth`` ... from one who is blind as a bat leaves a lot to be desired ... And I would rather deal with ambulance chasing lawyers ... than a mullah-led mob chasing me for praying like a Muslim ...

... and what compassion are you talking about anyway? Do you mean ... letting go of the child after the mother is stoned to death for adultery? If so ... then the rest of the world is waaay ahead of you ...

... and since you`re so miserable in the land of big satan ... you should head back and join the ummah in chasing Ahmadis and stoning adulteress women ... and free suicide bombing lessons by goat-screwing arabs in the local mosque is always an added plus ... of course, there wouldn`t be any contributions to your 401k ... but then, you wouldn`t need it anyway ...

hamidm

In a pathologically mad frenzy to berate Islam people miss the obvious. They are denying no one but themselves the truth. Isn`t it a fact the the Law of Diyat is already established in the United States, though it is grossly misused and doing more harm than good. The reason is that it wasn`t established with the best of intentions. Isn`t it true that there exists a whole discipline of Injury Law that is in practice; isn`t it true that a whole cadre of attorneys, which are lovingly called `ambulance chasers` who make their living by contesting injury claims and work towards getting a financial settlement for their clients. But the difference between this Injury Law and Islamic Law of Diyat is that the US injury law lacks the component of compassion. Isn`t it true that if not all, but most of the settlements made under Injury Law are made by pure greed on victims part and pure contempt on transgressor`s part? So what has society become as a result? It is a society that is driven by greed and contempt. Islam on the other hand takes into account the human nature and thus blocks all the ways that lead to its corruption. In Islamic Law the monetary amount of a financial settlement under Diyat is pre-established by the state and it is made known to the public. So when a victim receives the settlement money he does not do it out of pure greed and when offender pays this money he doesn`t feel the contempt for the victim. Both parties know that the transaction that they have made was just and that God likes those who are just. The injury laws in United States need to be changed. They do not have to become Muslims to do that. As a matter of fact there are several voices, that are raised from many quarters, by concerned citizens that these Injury Laws must be ammended to end this culture of greed and contempt - but unfortunately this corruption has seeped to very core of the society so that now there are ``pressure groups`` and ``interest groups`` who have vested interests in keeping this corruption in the society. While the society suffers and degenerates.

Sattar

I am not that nieve as you think, I have been around for a while. But it is my duty and my obligation to lead people to the truth. That is my purpose of being. Whether one yanks my chain or throws stones at me, I have to do it.

urstruly,

..........since sattar mian has stolen my thunder i would simply like to thank you for your scholarly islamist opinion on the american justice system ...... it is obvious that you have nothing but contempt, hatred and loathing for the society and culture that you live in and would like nothing better than to overthrow the system that chaffs your islamic nerve .......... i assume that you belong to the brotherhood that seeks to convert all americans to islam and establish the khilafat in washington !........ for years daniel pipes has been warning us about the nefarious brotherhood, but nobody takes him seriously because most of the time he comes off as a flaming bigot himself ..............

....... personally, i am against the death penalty whether it is sanctioned by a vindictive god, a mad monk or a an idiotic judge simply because it is barbaric and inhuman .........

......... i think that tahmed and others have asked you many times why people of your ilk continue to live in the decadent west if they hate it so much .......... do you guys actually feel you are on a mission from god to save the infidels from hell fire, or are you simply little hypocrites?

… it seems mullah Urstruly has once again dazzled us with his in-depth knowledge of Islamic jurisprudence … and made compelling arguments on why the electoral system should be replaced with one based on shariah …

… super bowl will be replaced with suicide bombings carried out in Shia mosques … zimmis will be forced to choose between the smelly ummah and sporadic attacks on their homes … dr phil will be replaced with beheadings of those who blasphemed against the prophet, his cousins, their descendants, or anyone named abdul, omar, or qasim for that matter … tying an adulteress woman to the designated pole in the compound of the neighborhood mosque and stoning here to death after traveeh will be the highlight of the evening for muttaqee … (which is obviously preferred over frequenting the neighborhood bar for a martini … go figure!) … hindus will be chased in efforts to settle the gujrat score … burgeoning virgins will be routinely rounded up and sent to fire up the loins of the grand mufti of the qurtoba mosque … and pia will have no choice but to furnish each seat with a copy of Quran … and a detachable lotta (on the left side of the seat, for obvious reasons) …

… my only hope is that … after all this nonsense … the weekend muttah will finally pass for a valid form of marriage … of course, one that does not involve meher or having to feed 200+ fat imbeciles at the expense of my yearly options grant …

… as for the possibility of being seated on left side of urstruly on my flight to Karachi … I guess I’ll have to forgo pia in favor of cathay pacific … and fly via Hong Kong instead …

++++++++++++++

Urstruly MiaN … hamidm is merely pulling your chain … don’t take him seriously … otherwise you will continue to sound like another brain-dead member of the psychotic ummah. The naïve sincerity with which you are explaining the shariah system … is laughable …

hamidm

Every society in the world establishes laws on crimes and punishment based on two principles:

1. To establish order in the society by codifying the values of the society
2. To prevent an individual from transgressing a codified value.

Islam as a religion and as a social ideology goes a step further than the two stated objectives of `establishing order` and that of `prevention`; it has a third objective as well when it codifies the societal values that it promotes. Islam demands us to establish a society that is based on the principles of mutual compassion and fear of (indignation) of God. Fear of God means that as individual and as society we are not only accountable to each other but also to a higher authority who is omni-present, who cannot be cheated, and who cannot be swayed away from the justice. The compassion breeds the necessary cohesiveness that binds the social fabric together even if a breach has occurred. In Islam the premium is on human life, whether it is that of victim or it is that of perpetrator. Both lives are valuable. Yet order in society is also valuable. So by promoting a strict code of justice coupled with necessary compassion Islam tries to strike the fine balance. In every culture of the world forgiveness is considered a virtue of the highest order. In case of murder, grievance on part of victim`s family is the greatest. The loss of a family member not only causes acute degree of emotional trauma but sometimes it also causes irreparable damage of financial nature which may further ruin the lives of many more people. As far as financial damage is concerned, it can be compensated either by perpetrator or by the society, but what to do about the emotional trauma? The only elixir that can cure this trauma is an act of kindness or compassion to the person whom you hate the most. Such an acts transcends your spirits to a higher level. From aggrieved party`s point of view, by forgiving, they hand their grief over to Allah who patches up and rewards them in this life and hereafter and on part of aggressor this act puts him right into the vice of Allah`s justice. There is a greater chance that by repenting and by doing the acts of kindness the aggressor in turn becomes a useful member of the society. Islam offers those second chances. One should ask himself, after all what really is the punishment for a person on death row? Is it the pain that he suffers while his neck snaps on the gallows? Is it the gas that chokes the out life out of him? Or is it the electricity that fries him into his own juices. None. The real punishment of a murderer, if you ask them, is the time between his apprehension and to the time when he steps on the gallows. If a man has all the wealth in the world, he would gladly exchange this wealth to avoid this excruciating punishment of waiting. By offering an opportunity to exercise compassion, Islam bestows upon the aggrieved this tremendous, God like, prowess to save a human life. There is nothing nobler than that.

In United States, where the society is most violent in the world, even more violent than the war torn genocidal nations of Africa or elsewhere, these laws are needed more. It is the richest society in the world but the divide between rich and poor is so sharp and mind boggling. The way they treat the most vulnerable members of the society, the unwed single mothers, the children of them, the colored minorities, the dispossessed, the homeless, the down trodden, makes one think what is the use of this looting, plundering and aggression on helpless nations is for, when they cannot have compassion for their own people. One does not have to be a Muslim to be compassionate. Look at the similar culture countries in Europe and even in Canada where public policy is that of compassion. Call it a social democracy or label it, whatever you like but the facts are so obvious. Even after two world wars, centuries of ruthless colonial aggression on other nations and a holocaust the European societies inherently are compassionate societies (internally) because they put premium on human life. Whereas in United States, the cheapest commodity is that of human life and this despite the fact that it is probably the only country in Western world that has death penalty on its laws. Tens of murderers are executed every year and yet hundreds if not thousands sit on death row, sometimes for decades, waiting the excruciating wait hoping that their fate might change and yet every year a new crop of murderers grows up. This is because there is no compassion for a fellow human being and no fear of God.

Ms. Sarwar,

Sad Indeed.

`` no law can bring about changes unless it is implemented, and unless society changes to accept the status of women as equal human beings``

the trouble here is the fact that the society needs to change as a whole. There are laws, bills; solutions to problems and answers to questions, trouble is the implementation of them.
In fact most of those who preach (No i do not mean you Ms. Sarwar- this is for the petty pretentious and the pseudo intellects) would resort to a similarly pathetic and degraded path when confronted by such a situation on a personal level (God Forbid).
and for the society to take a complete U-Turn, it takes more than one can think. Much much mor

urstruly,

...... this is a serious question.......... do you want to impose qisas and diyat in your new home - the united states, or do you think the existing laws are better ?........ just curious

Until such time as we as a people accept the zulm of the zalim in all forums of society, we cannot evove into a society where the rights of poor helpless women are respected. I see collective madness in all spheres our society especially the socalled PMLQ and its Mazari/Legari etc members

hum bolay ga to bolo gay kay bolta hai,
hum kuch nahin bolay ga!

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I would like to retract from the statement made in the last sentence of my previous post where I wrote that ``In this case, a punishment, under Tazir can be imposed which can be life imprisonment and fine but cannot be excution & flogging. The precedence exists.``

As a matter of fact in case of murder state WILL impose the death penalty to the murderer if the Qisas agreement does not go thru. The confusion arises when usually the word Qisas is used in conjunction with the word Diyat. Qisas applies in case of murder whereas Diyat is the monetary compensation or pardon in case of bodily injury short of death. Both Qisas and Diyat where ordained by Almighty to replace the then existing Mosaic Law of `an eye for an eye - a life for a life` etc. Islam has differentiated murder from the bodily injury into the categories of Qisas and Diyat. As I said, in case of murder if Qisas agreement fails then state will impose the death penalty. But in case of bodily harm if a Diyat agreement fails then state cannot impose the `an eye for an eye` punishment. If Diyat agreement fails then state imposes a Tazir punishment (anything that society deems fit for the particular offence) short of an eye for an eye. I regret the error.

Judicially, the application of Qisas & Diyat in case of honor killing is a very interesting case study. Personally, I am against the death penalty in Pakistan in any case, even if it is given to the perpatrator of murder and gang rape of a five year old. But inspite of that I would like to keep the death penalty on the books until Pakistan has a sovereign judicial system. Therefore, I think Qisas and Diyat are the best options to save the human lives. Those who are murdered are gone forever; the judicial killing of the perpetrator cannot bring him/her back, however, a monetary compensation can not only save another human life but may also help the relatives of the victim financially. If finance is not the issue then given the tribal nature of society in Paksitan where revenge killings are all too common a pardon may help control the further tit for tat killing. In my personal opinion the issue that Beena has raised, has been overhyped. Let us take an example. lets say a brother kills his sister for her indiscretion, then the relatives of this girl are other siblings and parents, in case she is not married. Now Beena is saying that if the murderer goes to police and voluntarily confesses that he has murdered his sister, then his siblings and parents will come to the court and say that they forgive the perpatrator. In my opinion in such a situation the problem is not a judicial issue but a procedural issue. For example, the police investigation in the case might reveal that the family members also conspired with perpetrator to commit this murder then the whole lot can be charged with conspiracy to commit murder and case cannot go to the level of Qisas setlement and matter becomes state vs. perpetrator(s) automatically. In this case, a punishment, under Tazir can be imposed which can be life imprisonment and fine but cannot be excution & flogging. The precedence exists.

Could be this is part of a ``Compromise Package`` for a razinama with the Misogynist Maulvi Alliance on the ``vardee`` issue?



Saeen aabaad rakhay

beena:

...no law can bring about changes unless it is implemented, and unless society changes to accept the status of women as equal human beings.

well said!

Speaking for the murder victim ( who knows it could be you tomorrow)!!

This is abominable. This is just another way to reinforce theocracy and the patriarchical social order and thwarting the formation of a liberal Islamic society which respects the human life in itself!!

This is something which no modern state should be tolerating- Compounding murder in this fashion- This makes the feudals more powerful and lecherous!

Rubbish!!

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