You Can’t Strip The Army

What is the difference between an army man and a civilian? Personally, I feel every man and woman of any country should be part of defense and army of their country. The civilian knows how to what? And the army man knows how to when?

Dealing with dirt , blood and tears DOES elevate them. They see a side of life which you fail to even acknowledge exists. In the end my dear, its power that enables you to protect and run, not just sweet talk. UNIFORM defines the look of the nation, Medals show the variety of risks taken and the man in it is someone we should all be proud of.

Lets face reality - power comes out from the barrel of a gun. The most democratic country in the world - the one we all follow as the role model, proves that everyday in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Be real.

``Besides, men in uniform represent the nasty face of society. ``
A strong statement i would say, However i would agree that it is more for professional reasons rather than patriotic reasons. But then is it wrong??????
Choosing a profession suited to your personality, is by no means a wrong thing, i guess. As far as falling for these men in uniform is concerned..... well thats not our fault is it?????

Enlightening Discussion, Never Thought There are people in both India and pakistan that think over and above Religion and Kashmir.

My Quest for finding such a group has finally been laid to rest.

Ref syke #29

[Do you seriously think Musharraf taking off his uniform would make any difference to the public..think again.]

It is said that no man is a hero to his valet or his wife, for they have seen him naked.

So, it might actually make a difference to the public if Musharraf takes his clothes off!

I dont think we can blame the uniform for any wrong doing! In the West, Business Suits by Armani ooze power and money..what shall we ask them to change into bermuda shorts?
I dont think the uniform can be blamed for anything a person wearing it does..are u sayin the politicians in our country who do not wear uniform dont abuse power??
yeah it may be true that as they have never even been to school so they can agree with you and say..Uniform has not corrupted us!!
As for women having fantasies of men in uniform...PUUUlease!!!!!
I think this is not a place to discuss what type of men women are attracted to..because the list is too long!!! And i dont find any relevance of Women bieng attracted to uniform having anything to do with abusing power.
Do you seriously think Musharraf taking off his uniform would make any difference to the public..think again.

I dont think we can blame the uniform for any wrong doing! In the West, Business Suits by Armani ooze power and money..what shall we ask them to change into bermuda shorts?
I dont think the uniform can be blamed for anything a person wearing it does..are u sayin the politicians in our country who do not wear uniform dont abuse power??
yeah it may be true that as they have never even been to school so they can agree with you and say..Uniform has not corrupted us!!
As for women having fantasies of men in uniform...PUUUlease!!!!!
I think this is not a place to discuss what type of men women are attracted to..because the list is too long!!! And i dont find any relevance of Women bieng attracted to uniform having anything to do with abusing power.
Do you seriously think Musharraf taking off his uniform would make any difference to the public..think again.

Having seen both sides, I will have to say that eligible women (at least in Pakistan) follow the following hierarchy:

- The first choice seems to be an educated guy, settled abroad
- An educated son of a rich businessman in Pakistan
- Someone with a high-paying govt. job, like PIA etc.
- Educated guy, doing well in private enterprise in Pakistan, like Citibank, IBM etc.
- Someone in the Civil Services, like Police, Customs etc.
- An officer in the military

The reasons have more to do with financial independence than anything else. People in the military, live hand to mouth until they become Brigadiers. That is about the age of 45. And then they become rich, when they become Generals. However, barely 2-3% reach that stage. Very few eligible girls are willing to put up with that kind of a struggle, over such a long time.

Mostof the other groups are relatively well-off from day one.

How about this one!

At New York`s Kennedy airport today, an individual later discovered to be a public school teacher was arrested trying to board a flight while in possession of a ruler, a protractor, a set square, a slide rule, and a calculator.


At a press conference this morning, Attorney General John Ashcroft said he believes the man is a member of the notorious al-gebra movement. He is being charged by the FBI under the Patriot Act with carrying weapons of math instruction.


``Al-gebra is a fearsome cult,`` Ashcroft said. ``They desire average solutions by means and extremes, and sometimes go off on tangents in a search of absolute value. They use secret code names like `x`and `y` and refer to themselves as `unknowns`, but we have determined they belong to a common denominator of the axis of medieval with coordinates in every country,`` Ashcroft told reporters, adding, ``As the Greek philanderer Isosceles used to say, `there are three sides to every triangle`.``


When asked to comment on the arrest, President Bush said, ``If God had wanted us to have better weapons of math instruction, He would have given us more fingers and toes.``

harimau:

Surely, you can do better with the `jokes` you choose to hear...

Besides, make up your mind whether people in this profession suffer from constipation or diarrhoea...

For the info of the Chowk interactor research team posted at Sea Lounge, the coffee costs more than Rs. 80 now!

And yes, those who live in glass houses should not mess with crystal :)

I just heard this joke.

There was this man who went to the doctor complaining about constipation. The doctor wrote out a prescription for him.

Three days later, the man was back again complaining that his problem hadn`t gone away. After asking a few questions, the doctored ordered him new medicines.

The man was back again in another few days with the same complaint. The doctor was puzzled and decided it may have something to do with the man`s occupation. So the doctor asked him what kind of work the man did.

He replied that he was a free-lance journalist. At which point, the doctor handed him Rs. 100 and asked him to get himself a square meal!

PS. This obviously doesn`t apply to those who sip Rs. 80 cups of coffee at the Sea Lounge!

``There is more to men in uniform that you will never get to know.``
Subroto: Your account was touching and this article in no way renders all this in a facetious light. This is what I had clarified: ``This is not a reflection on the role of the Armed Forces in protecting a country. We are talking about gender and power dynamics of a certain type of clothing.`` I do know of a few things beyond this and have written about them, but this time there was a limited purpose…

Thanks to all who have taken time out for interacting here…despite Dr. Pervez Hoodbhoy being around :) Nazarsaab, ssaleemi and malik, Nadia…thanks for enlightening; mshergill, kaurasach…interesting personal anecdotes; umer…it`s enough to dream and not to wake up to reality!

There is meant to be only one dimension to this article…no other purpose was implied, Ashutosh.

Many women, as men, are attracted not only to economic power but to power of any kind, romair.

``I think it is best for women to lower their gaze when they see a man in uniform.``
(urstruly)
Some women do have a shoe fetish…

``Or is it the male ego with special reference to the armed forces that upsets you so much?`` (succubus)
Yes. And no, not had any ugly experiences with men from the forces. Not everything I write is about me.

``What we need to understand is that its not the uniform that is at fault, its the man wearing that uniform.`` (tintingem)
People often `become` what they wear; that is what symbols are. Anyway, this was not a generalisation, merely an opinion based on observation.

``an article about her hero mushy...why a hero for her?....because he killed hindus in kargil....viva Musharraf``.

Yeah, twist and turn...I had written, ``How can you discuss diplomatic ties with a man who has medals pinned on his lapel for doing undiplomatic things?``

Let me end with this posted by Beena Sarwar on my writer interact page: ``Farzana, thought I`d share this joke I heard: Overheard - Qazi Hussain Ahmed is suggesting that they get Aishwarya Rai to come to Pakistan & meet Mush - she may the only one who`ll get him to take his uniform off!!``

Subroto:

Thank you for sharing.

Hmmm... I couldnt go past the second paragraph as i was reading this ludicrous article. I really thought i`m going to have to read her own sexual fantasies. Dont get me wrong, i am all about free speech but articles like these and authors like Mrs. Farzana Versey make me think that everyone enjoying free speech needs to have a thorough mental check-up before they`re allowed to exercise freedom of speech, just as a pre-req.

I`ve been surrounded by men in uniform since I was a child. Be it that of army or navy, (father:army, uncles:navy) uniform was not something alien to me.

And uniform did not carry a very deep meaning for my innocent mind. I used to wear a uniform to school so the fact that my father donned one when he went to office was no surprise.

What we need to understand is that its not the uniform that is at fault, its the man wearing that uniform. There are all sorts of officers in the army, just like there are all sorts of people in this world. But an officer in uniform carries a huge responsibility as his actions are not just representative of his individual being but of an institution. And there have been some men in the past who have done deeds that have scarred the institution of the army.

I agree with Subroto, there is much more to men in uniform then what FV writes here. All men in the army should not be generalized for the actions of a few bad men. Men in uniform are husbands, fathers, sons and brothers of many women. And most of these women love their men for many reasons besides the uniform they wear.

My father is to retire this month. Infact, today is his last day in uniform. He has had a good career in the army and we are all very proud of him...and I don`t think I would view him any differently without his uniform.

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Had a really weird Dream Farzana,

Musharraf was walking towards someone when he tripped and fell. His hair, combed from one end to the other, flipped, and a wig hidden underneath the long combed-over hair fell out. He looked embarrassed. My dreams have sometimes forecasted the future. Just thought I`d let you know.

Umer M.

Two years ago, I rang up my cousins office to speak to him and I asked `Can I speak to Captain Harkirat Singh`. The officer who answered replied `You mean Major Harkirat Singh !!!`. Not having spoken to him for a few years, I was `unaware` of his promotion. While holding on to the telephone, waiting for my cousin to come, I heard the officer who had answered the phone tell my cousin `Call for you, ....he called you a Captain !!!`.

So I guess FV, the Faujis do take their rank very seriously :).

In todays world, atleast in India, most women hate the process of getting posted every two years due to being married to a Fauji. It plays havoc to their childrens education and effects their own career. Often postings are to small lonely places, and the family has to live apart. Even though the perks are great, free rations, accomodation, cash in hand is always low. So I think that most women prefer to get married to a non fauji, specially if they are going for an arranged marriage. They feel that their are too many sacrifices and compromises in an army life for the family. Though there are a lot of people who join the army, because they do not know what else to do, there are many who still join it for adventure and specially if their families have a army tradition.

I have been told that the Pakistani army pays very well, and you can become a senior civil servant through the army, because the army rules. Maybe someone can enlighten me on that.

Lastly the army has got certain values which get passed on to the family. I am not surprised at the high amount of army officers daughters who have become Miss India in the recent past. ( Manpreet Brar, Sushmita Sen, Gul Panang are 3 that I know and I am sure their are others)

In the end I would say that you should get married to a person and not bother so much about his profession.

Well, i would like to add one more aspect to all this

Moustache + uniform = Demon

These are times of startling revelations and amazing discoveries. First, we were told, to our utmost surprise, that 96 % of Pakistanis prefer to be kicked around by fauji boots than to be beaten by civilian chappals. Then came a lesson in history with all its illusory analogies interpolating similarities between French general Charles de Gaulle and the incumbent indispensable desi saviour.

To start with, ordinary mortals have little interest with historic parallels and wishful resemblances of our messiah(s) with other towering political personalities of the world, factual and fictional alike. Second, with my limited knowledge of the history and imperfect understanding of politics, it would be immodest on my part to deliver gratis opinion both in general terms as well as endeavour to debunk one specific grand claim or the other.

I am writing this note to humbly draw readers’ kind attention towards a couple of superficial factors common among majority of dictators. Obsession for uniform and shaggy facial design.

Please, observe. Internationally, Hitler, Saddam Hussein and Stalin - the worst of worst human race has ever produced. On home turf, Ayub Khan, Zia ul Haq and Musharraf - the best we have cursed with so far. Distinguished company, indeed. Juxtapose them and even amateur would discern some pretty obvious common denominators. Yeah, uniform and moustache together would turn out to be a lethal combination.

With due respect for countless brothers in uniform worldwide, exhibiting their masculinity through this particular mode, I would like to accentuate one bizarre observation: very true, not all uniformed men sporting moustaches are demonic dictators but a bitter fact remains that most of the repugnant despots humankind have ever had are nonetheless men with moustache- and wardi.

As a socio-political research project, it would be very interesting to observe the transformation of personality or changes in character by methodically removing/shuffling these variables, wherever possible and applicable. To check whether it is moustache, uniform or both parameters working in concert that makes one self-serving, callous and manipulating tyrant. Locating answer to this riddle would be a great service to fellow human beings.

Thanks

Miss FV, your article deviates all over. I fail to understand:

Is it the women you are worried about who marry army men?
Is it the women who are married by army men that disturbs you?
Is it just that you’re not much impressed by Musharraf’s attire and are waiting for him to ward it off?
Is it what the meager minority of army personnel engage in undercover, by taking advantage of the ‘uniform’?
Or is it the male ego with special reference to the armed forces that upsets you so much?

It is true. The servility and cringing submissiveness to Army men is like a social custom- especially in the sub continent. But the civil can and will never understand. Period.
It seems you carry ugly experiences with the Males from the armed forces and hence, find it convenient to sit and lash out at them just because a few obnoxious came your way.
But don’t expect to be confronted and justified to the discriminatory remarks you have made…they are trained to rise above it all...

Subroto is right in stating “There is more to men in uniform that you will never get to know.”

I feel sorry that you were destined to taste the worst apple from the bad ones of the good lot.

Cheers-

Farzana,

Pakistani women are not at all attracted by men in Uniform. People who have struggled for Democracy in Pakistan are being Educated, Socialist Men n Women. There had been scenes when Bhutto was hanged then raged women attempted to attack on Men in Army Uniform and snatched their badges in protesting rallies.

Military profession in Pakistan is considered a very reliable profession in previous decades There were times when Whole villages men were in Army. So traditionaly women used to remember them in songs...I am talking about World War 2.
Still then the trend is that most army men are from small towns like Talla Gang, Chakwal, Attock, Mansehra etc. So Army has emerged a kind of Baradri. they have their small nuclei bases as Cantonments where they enjoy liberties among themselves. Educational Campuses, Departmental Stories are in their high reach. So their community is on real life basis a strong status in Pakistan. As compared to a civilian who has to work extra to get a car/ educate his/her child and maintain social categories.
Therefore Army people among themselves are economically strong enough as they enjoy handful budjet of Pakistan.
Civillians have to work in their casual costumes real hard... And to avoid comparison Army Cantonments are always a way off city, secured and protected.
There was a trend in Pakistan in which people were so much overruled by army that by seeing any army officer they would say: ``Pak Fauj ko Salam``
Why women love men in uniform?
Reasons are sense of security of job , money and family .
So its money society...

In Zia Regime they gained popularity by name of Islam, Zia did the referendum by saying if you are with Shariah vote me....A Yezeed Slogan Infact if we peep into History.
Therefore people were inclined towards fundamentals for their religious survival which is the only basic aim.
Army men are religiously fanatics therefore they are highly praised and people have an idea that if Army comes to play they will be a religious rule. So thats another reason of their popularity.
Well If somebody has read Hamud-ur-Rehman Commission Report then there would be shocking waves that at what level the Army was playing with women. God Bless Bhutto who didn`t publish it then.
Now Musharraf is another case. There is a big game of survival now. Its War against terrorism and this has no space for democracy...So people are relying on Musharraf`s hold with America.

an article about her hero mushy...why a hero for her?....because he killed hindus in kargil....viva musharraf

Subroto,

You make a good point.
If you have noticed, Ms.Versey has no ability to think through any issue.
Her knowledge of most things she writes about on chowk is shallow.
It is possible that she has more deep knowledge in other areas but that is not
visible on chowk.
All her writing is full of abuse of one thing or another. Maybe she should pay
a visit to counsellor and work on her frustrations.

I think it is best for women to lower their gaze when they see a man in uniform.

Farzana

Some very small men hide behind a big Uniform. They feel reduced as a human being without the Uniform.

In Pakistan (and probably in India), the retired officers continue to use their Rank with their name and identity quite unike in the developed cultured societies. The military culture itself is so strong that their mannerism continues well past their retirements. Their posture is upright, their gait has a firmness and their voice authorotative. These mannerisms are milder in Air Force and Navy as compared to Army.

As for the respect of Uniform, this varies. Where the militaries are apolitical, they are held in esteem because the concept of sacrificing life for a cause is hisorically considered noble. Where the militaries indulge in politics, the people may fear the Uniform but respect is certainly down.

I do not think military is now considered the best profession worldwide as in the centuries gone by - and the brightest do not go to the military. In fact, the Inter-Services selection Board turns down boys of very high IQ. Air Force requirements are of a higher IQ because of the nature of the Job. It is no surprise that when Air Force Cadets who can not make flying, when go to the Army, they invariably do extremely well.

Those days when girls got excited with Uniform are gone. Now they are more sensible and less emotional. They prefer solid professionals with an inherent potential of steady high income.

nhk

``Women get turned on by men in uniform. I have never understood why.``

Farzana - I can offer some insight :) I think it all goes back to the oldest profession. No, not that of women - which is prostituition. But that of men - which is waging war. The first war in the history of world was waged when there were only three men in this world - Adam, Kane and Able. Kane killed Able (or was it the other way around? sheesh!)

Now, if you read through history - history of ANY civilization, you will notice that the warrior class easily mixed with the ruling class. In fact, during ancient times, women of child bearing age would mate with the returning soldiers to improve the genes of their offsprings. A man in uniform is a protector. It is for nothing that women, before men made the mistake of educating them, used to call their beloveds as ``my knight in shining armor``.

Before the advent of WWF (World Wrestling Federation), women used to look at men in uniform as the ultimate symbol of bravery. By nature, a man is hunter and women is a nurturer. She cannot do the nurturing well if she feels threatened. If a woman is presented with 2 options of marriage - one is a rich man but weak in protecting her from the dragons of the world; while the other is an average man who would kill the dragon and then take her into his tent to make love to her, she would pick the later.

hope that helps :)

``How are you Papa? Are you feeling OK?``
``Don`t worry beta everything under control.``
The next day was like other Sundays. Tombola and lunch, and in the evening watching the movie on the Television. When the heart attack happened at 4 in the morning, he was still calm and composed. My cousin and our neighbour, the retired eighty year old officer got ready to take him to the hospital. With a wave to my mother he was off expecting to be back by lunch. But he never came back.
My father - the man in the uniform. The man who volunteered for a mission when at back home his wife was due to give birth to their child. The man who bought back six tanks from Pakistan but never talked about it. An officer with the same name had died on the day of the ceasefire but they did not know it was him. I was born a day after the ceasefire and they did not know about his whereabouts for three months. A father who took a transfer to the Ministry of Defence, forsaking his seniority so that his heart patient son could receive better treatment. An engineer, a MBA but also an artist. A painter, a musician, a man who played the violin and the flute. A yogi, a perfectionist in all that he attempted to do. And a grandfather. A grandfather so patient and loving that he could spend hours playing the same game with a four year old, again and again and again. So when he died the six year old told the three year old `that you will never know how much fun Dada was``.

There is more to men in uniform that you will never get to know.

I don`t think women are attracted to men in uniform, as such. The biggest thing that women are attracted to is economic power, i.e. money. A civilian with more money than a guy in the Army will be more attractive for a women. And vice-versa.

Hello FV,
There is only one dimension of this article. Do you ever try to think about the other side of the coin or even third probably even fourth?
Below are your statements that makes no sense even though they are written in english.
``The whole idea of a Nobody being transformed overnight into something special only because he can march in a straight line is silly.`` Is this what you think of any Army.
``what happens when the man is out of it, say at home or in bed, stripped off medals, bereft of his beret? `` This question is so silly. You like someone for his/her particular quality, do you change your feelings or attitude when (s)he is not exhibiting that.
``Very few of them are in this field for patriotic reasons; it`s just another job opportunity.`` Please provide something to support your facts. Sure it is a job but person doing this job requires much more respect.
``In their dreams women love the idea of a man bleeding to death for a cause.`` This statement again is so idiotic that makes your article absurd.
``Men of action are not supposed to think.`` There is good possibility that if you do not think at this job you might quickly become a ``hero or shahid``.
``How many individualists are there in this world who will stick their necks out and seek their own course? And how many people are there to find a criterion to judge them with?`` I would like to know whether you would answer `Yes` to these questions.
``Do civilian men lack all these qualities? Can they not be powerful heroes and belong to a section of society that has enough respect?`` Again a dimensionless statement. I think you like to generalize everything in life. Everything is black or white, coward or courage, etc. There are situations when someone can be a coward and other situations when one can be courageous.
``The women who marry such men fall into three categories:`` Can women marry an armymen for his sense of humor, his looks, etc?
``Besides, men in uniform represent the nasty face of society. Dealing with dirt, blood and tears does not in any way elevate them.`` For every nasty acts done by few armymen I could quote ten sacrifices done by armymen. Why are they not elevated by dealing in blood and tears, doctors also work with blood and tears of patients and I believe the occupation of army and doctor are much elevated.

And finally a very personal question:
Have you ever been attracted toward any person sexually? If so, what has attracted you toward him/her and if not what do you fantasize that other person would be? I am betting that it is more than one quality that intrigued you in other person not just one like because he is a profession.

Far,

Bad timing for this article, all of the interactions will go to Pervez Hoodbhoy`s article.

You should let Chowk staff know never to put your article against him.

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Farzana begum,
``It is a fact. Women get turned on by men in uniform. I have never understood why. ``.....

``I cannot stand the sight of a man in uniform. ..... Yet, why are women attracted to such men? ``

Till now I was under the impression that you were a woman!

what i norticed is that this article does not claim to be previously published in TFT. is it true?

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