Employment Equity in India’s Private Sector

dont know why my earlier comment was not posted.. trying it again...

rsridhar:

``I saw how the caste-based selection system had played havoc with merit. The brightest jewel were still from the so called ``Forward Caste``. Less than 5% of seats are reserved for them, so they have got to bee good. Rest of the crowd was pathetic. ``...

---

Well, if 95% of the doctors are pathetic, that should imply that there should be a high casualty rate for the kids and infants and all other people treated in TN govt. hospitals.. But what I find is that health indicators in TN are better than the rest of the country and the infant mortality rate is quite low.. I`m happy that you belong to the group of ``brightest jewels``, but that doesn`t mean you have to address the other doctors as pathetic..

``Which is why the doctor who put a pace-maker near my dad`s heart recently is a Dr Ramachandran (no prize for guessing his caste). ``
``Years ago, my friend from Madras migrated to Delhi and got selected to one of the medical schools there (the selection to medical seats is merit based there though there is a reserved quota for ST/ST but the percentage is 15% or so). He was brilliant. He was also a brahmin Iyer boy. He told me how his own sister could not get a medical seat because of this quota system...``

---

You don`t have to quote examples to emphasise ``brahmins/iyers`` are intelligent/smart and of superior stock etc... I have a larget set of friends from all stripes.. and know that, but I also know smart folks from other sections and some really dumb brahmins..(maybe.. they are those ``dark`` thenkalai folks got converted by ramanuja.. :-)... )...

``People who are talented find a way of being creative and succeed in life.``

---

right.. But ``talent`` is a different beast to different ppl.. A kid whose parents/relatives were illiterates/(just high school educated) from rural schools scoring 80%, in my scale would rate way higher than a kid with well educated and well settled parents/relatives (a few in UK/US) studying in good reputed schools, scoring 95%... It`s disheartening (and little unfortunate) for the kids in the later category, but they have all the support systems in the world to come up, but for the kids in the first category there is no one other than the govt.. to help them thru the affirmative action/ reservation policies..
I agree with u that the way it is practised is not fully right.. If a son/daughter of an IAS officer makes use of the reservation to get into a college, It`s highly unfair and defeats the whole purpose.... We really need to kick the creamy layer out...

re:#126 by masanamuthu
``Good, so u accept the fact that anyone can be trained to perform the required job.. That`s exactly the argument behind reservations, give opportunities to the historically under-privileged and train them to acquire the required skills.. ``
Ha!
I did not want to respond to your earlier posts but i now feel compelled.
So many opportunities now exist for the so called ``backward classes`` ( a broad category that, in TN, seems to include everybody except a brahmin) that few skills seem to be needed to become a doctor or an engineer.
I did my MD Pediatrics from ICH, Egmore, Madras (i got the seat thr` a highly competetive All India Medical Entrance Exam) and my 2 years there were a revelation to me.
I saw how the caste-based selection system had played havoc with merit. The brightest jewel were still from the so called ``Forward Caste``. Less than 5% of seats are reserved for them, so they have got to bee good. Rest of the crowd was pathetic. There were many who just wanted a degree so they can practice medicine. Standards in that hospital were abysmal (even by Indian standards). Most people who get emplyoed as ``Assistants`` were political appointees with abysmal knowledge of Medicine.
Clearly, caste-based (and not merit based) selections to professional courses seem to lower standards. What this has done is to create a dichotomy: the best people (who did not have to depend on a quota system) have gravitated towards Private Hospitals. Which is why you find a different kind of crowd in Apollo and other such hospitals. Which is why the doctor who put a pace-maker near my dad`s heart recently is a Dr Ramachandran (no prize for guessing his caste). Of course, they charge a heft price for their skills and these hospitals are beyond the reach of the poor.
In other words, the caste-based selection criteria in the long run is denying best care to the poor. You may have profitted from this kind of quota system but surely this is not the right way and there is no need to defend it.
Years ago, my friend from Madras migrated to Delhi and got selected to one of the medical schools there (the selection to medical seats is merit based there though there is a reserved quota for ST/ST but the percentage is 15% or so). He was brilliant. He was also a brahmin Iyer boy. He told me how his own sister could not get a medical seat because of this quota system. Today, he is a successful cardiologist in All India Institute of Medical Sciences.
People who are talented find a way of being creative and succeed in life. This has nothing to do with caste. By making caste a basis of selection to professional courses, TN govt over the years has shot itself in its foot.
Sridhar

re:#140 by rahul_capri
``The MAcaulay system of education is geared towards making only doctors ,engineers or babus.It is not fit for a country like India where most of the people are self employed.``
Very well said.
Poor people should be taught skills that can help them get self-employed. Such people often employ more people under them, thereby creating more job opportunities.
India must have technical institutions where employment or skill-oriented courese are conducted. I am not at all against reservation for the poor in these institutions (again, i am against any caste based reservations).
As i have already said, caste based reservations in professional courses is something that govt can do away with.
Sridhar

This is in reply to the various suggestions/statements made by DM,

``I also believe that half a century of reservations/quotas in educational institutions should have assured a sufficient supply of competent candidates from the lower castes so that their representation in the private sector can be improved without sacrificing overall productivity.``

Thats more of a reason for them to get jobs based on merit rather than clamor for reservations. And may be the government should discontinue the practice of reseration in Govt. jobs too.

``It is simply to acknowledge the fact that India`s underclass needs some pro-active measures on the part of the private sector to compensate for their lack of access to the levers of power in the private sector.``

I really didn`t understand ``lack of access to the levers of power`` part of it. Do you mean to say the rest of the Indian populace have access to that lever (whatever it means).

``I have never seen any firm going bankrupt blaming affirmative actions for their failure.``
As someone pointed out, the affirmative action will require the employer to get some representative percent of the minority class in the work place. But that doesn`t necesarrily mean that the minority person has to be appointed to a position of responsibility (head, management/ senoir management) simply because he belongs to a minority class. As per my experience in U.S. industry there is some thing known as Performance Management, where the credit goes where it belongs or you can sue for discrimination.

Also, you had mentioned something about how Indias position in International media would rise after undertaking this ``socio-economic engineering``.
I don`t know how much of economics you know or understand, but even for a person like me who has never taken even a single course on economics this appears to be a very absurd idea. Business decisions are not made on compassionate grounds. Look at China, which has a very dismal position on human rights, still year after year gets MFN status by none other than Uncle Sam. Even Taiwanese businessmen prefer to send billions of FDI into mainland, even after the Commies threaten to use muscle power to annexe Taiwan.

I will narrate a letter posted by an American tourist in TOI several years ago when I was in India. He wrote when he was coming back from Mumbai on a Air India plane, he noticed an advertisement for a position of the pilot but didn`t understand the jargon used. When he asked his fellow Indian traveller to explain him about the boarding, he was told that the position was only for a SC/ST reserved class for which the requirements were less stringent. The tourist was shell shocked and could not understand how can the fate of 200-300 travellers can be placed in the hands of person for whom the bar has been lowered. His succint reply was that he doesn`t care about the caste problem in India but as a traveller he will never ever travel with Air India.

Jai Hind

Anil #96 Your point about Lizzat papad is well taken.Though still, there is quite a large chunk of people who would not benefit from cooperatives.And my point about education is connected to that. Scheduled tribes in a place like Bastar resist traditional education. They are not wrong in saying that it interferes with their occupation. The point is not about having or not having education,it is about having relevant education. The MAcaulay system of education is geared towards making only doctors ,engineers or babus.It is not fit for a country like India where most of the people are self employed.So I will again reiterate, we need a fundamental paradigm shift in our education structure.Then we will be able to pull most people in the mainstream. Then the cooperative movement will also be able to benefit most people.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Urstruly #136 Thanks for taking the time to explain why you posted those pictures of muslims under arrest in Thailand. I will agree with you that the killing of 78 of these people (which took place as they were stuffed into overloaded military trucks for transport elsewhere, and suffocated) is a travesty, and those responsible should be identified and brought to justice. Whether that will happen is not certain.

I will disagree with you when you say that all we get from the world community is an ``oops``, for the following reasons: (1) This was given front page coverage in newpapers across the world, along with the pictures (see, e.g., the Washington Post and NYT. (2) This coverage was at least as complete as similar abuses of human rights - indeed, the plain and brutal extra-judicial killing of people - that take place across the world (Indonesia, Sudan, Rwanda, Congo, Balkans, South Asia, Burma, Latin America, Russia - the list goes on).

Indeed, what I did not find reported in the Washington Post is that the muslim unrest in the two southern provinces of Thailand (Narathiwat and Pattani) is not a new phenomenon. It goes back at least 2-3 decades and probably longer. I know this first hand because I actually visited this place over two decades ago when I was fresh out of college and there was a serious insurgency even back then. Thai government officials refused to accompany us when we told them we were going to Pattani because they told us there was an armed separatist movement going on and the separatists would immediately execute any government official. However, my brave english colleague (who was also risking his life as a westerner) and Thai driver (who volunteered even though we told him he could stay behind) accompanied us (I half-jokingly told them that being muslim, they would probably just ask me to join them in prayers). We had to pass through two or three army checkpoints (heavily armed with armored cars), and the driver also pointed to the surrounding hills where he told us the insurgents lived. At nightfall, the road was theirs and we had to get our business done during daylight so we could get out in time.

We did not risk our lives through bravado, but because we wanted to get some understanding of the socio-economic profiles of local farmers. We went off the main road and finally got the chance to see for ourselves the living conditions of local farmers, to ask them questions - and to later report it back so appropriate kinds of assistance could be provided to them.

I draw the following conclusions from this first hand experience:
(1) This has been a serious, long standing insurgency in Thailand that the government (like many other third world governments) has been unable to address properly);
(2) The blame for continuation of this rests with both the Thai government and the leaders of the islamic insurgents.
(3) Does that leadership represent the large majority of muslims living in Pattani/Narathiwat? Of course not. They have power because they have guns, as we could plainly sense that day. Those farmers we met years ago living in miserable conditions were as terrified of the insurgents as we were while we were there. Talking to those poor farmers, it was clear to me that they simply wanted to improve their livelihood and a better future for their children.
(4) Does the international community bear the blame for this? Of course. BUT, the international community is not just the west (indeed, my english colleague risked his life to be able to do what little he could to help the suffering people of the province), which is in my view the easy scapegoat you often find. Mahatir (next door in Malaysia) made a lot of fuss about other things, never about this; Giant countries in the neighborhood (Indonesia, India, China) never bothered to intervene, nor has this been a problem for any arab nation (who seem to think that the only human tragedy in the world is the one that happens to palestinians). So, if you are looking to pass the blame, be fair and spread it to all humanity and not just your favorite targets - the westerners. (indeed, westerners are probably the only people who put their own lives on the line to do what little they can to help - as e.g. journalists like Goodman, and also lesser known people like doctors, aid workers, economists, and so forth who put their lives on the line).

Long post. But if it helps you understand that things are not as simple, and the west is not always the culprit as you seem to imagine.

Your hyperbole makes it sometimes difficult to have a dialogue with you. You say.

``The point is that, 80 of those innocent Muslims were massacared in police custody ruthlessly and with total disregard for their basic human rights. While all of them were killed in police custody, it means that they were not ``fighting` when they were killed, they were helplessly tied down like animals. And all we get from world community is not even an ``oops``.``

You are right up to a point though the world community is saying ``oops``. There is even a demand for the resignation of the Thai prime minister from within that country. But yes, it is inhuman to treat humans like sardines and pile them in a truck and the world has not condemned this inhuman act enough. And you are right to raise a stink about it. But you are also guilty of an attitude of not noticing others` pains. One could post pictures of similar atrocities from Bangladesh, Nepal or Srilanka but you dont because the victims are not muslims, heck you dont even post the pictures from Darfur even though the victims there are muslims. And then,

``Take for example, this forum where 100% of Hindus claim that discrimination against Muslims is justified and well deserved because those who are being discriminated against are Muslims``

This is where you become ridiculous and elicit rhetorical retort instead of serious answers. Could you prove this claim? I, for one, support including certain backward muslim communities amon the obcs. Yes, some people have made absurd statements like `hum paanch hamaare pachees` but by and large people who have opposed extending reservations to muslims are also those who have opposed reservations to any group. Some have explained the reasons why muslims are underrepresented, though not in all sectors (entertainment, carpet and brass industries are examples where they are not under-represented).

The point is that, 80 of those innocent Muslims were massacared in police custody ruthlessly and with total disregard for their basic human rights. While all of them were killed in police custody, it means that they were not ``fighting` when they were killed, they were helplessly tied down like animals. And all we get from world community is not even an ``oops``. Just imagine these champions of human rights, had this massacre happened in a Muslim land and had all those who were killed were, people of another faith. Today the blood of Muslims in thinner than water. Take for example, this forum where 100% of Hindus claim that discrimination against Muslims is justified and well deserved because those who are being discriminated against are Muslims; so is there a wonder why 97% of Muslims in that country are unrepresented - that was the topic of this article. WE cannot just sit idealy by and wait the time while the cauldron is cooking up the recipe for the next global Muslim Holocaust.

Harimau, you ought to cool down dude. the so called ``masanamuthu`` has been
much more sophisticated than you. You should not let emotions get the better of
rational thinking.
Also notice how the so called ``saint`` (a paki troll) seeks to side with you to get
you and ``masanamuthu`` to fight more.

I hope you have read history and learnt lessons from it.

just my 2 cents.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

In reply to your question whether Indian Muslims stand a chance, the answer is yes.

During my life I have seen many of them quite successful in whatever they are doing. But with changing times thinking should also change. As pointed out by others, its better to learn to fish, rather than beg for one. In todays competitive atmosphere, regressive thinking wont take a person far ahead. When a person has 7 to 8 kids, whom is he going to freed/offer a good eduation. So instead of ``Hum pach hamare Pacchis`` formula they should go for more manageable families and educate them. Thats the weapon they will need.
Also, I have found one uncanny observation with respect to the mafia, muslims do dominate that segment.

Jai Hind

saint:

strange that you have a handle ``saint``..

``if not for reservation you and your daddy would probably be cleaning some toilet instead of interacting on this website....Not because of some caste system , but because you people are so effing dumb....so I guess it has benefited someone atleast. ..``

-- Thanks for guessing my and my dad`s profession.. :-)
well, i think there`s a lot of sh*t that yet remains to be cleaned.. but this time from you guys` heads...

``A poor brahmin boy getting 80% in PCM at 12th grade has a much lower chance of getting a given seat than a rich mobile phone carrying shoodra boy , son of an IAS officer getting 40%``

-- did you read my earlier post abt kicking the creamy layer out??..

``A shoodra in charge is worse than a monkey in charge , and sadly for India , its future is in severe jeopardy because shoodras indeed are in charge of the country today...``

-- well shoodras have been in charge for some time, and last time i checked, the economy is growing at a faster rate, jobs are being generated, peace is prevailing in all except a few regions of the country, millions are getting educated, INDIA is live and kicking... Losers like you can whine your hearts out..

Do u know the statistics abt inter-caste marriages and you`d be surprised to know who leads the pack... :-)

jang: let me make it easy for you to understand:

DM: Quotas.
TA: No Quotas.

DM: No trade unions
TA: No trade unions

Urstruly: Look at the poor muslim men being forced to lie on the ground without shirts without even a blanket under them to make them comfortable and this makes me so unhappy that I almost felt guilty while I was going to bloomingdales to buy myself half a dozen of those nice new shirts while all those poor muslims were forced to lie on the ground without any shirts.
DM: Eh??
TA: What, what, what??
Jang: I dont understand what DM and TA are talking about.

Hope this helps. :-)

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

i cant understand a word of what DM and Tahmed are talking about. all i think is ``hmm cushy world-bank-UN type jobs with nice pensions``..