Hey JC, won’t you smile for me?

halur, does your parish priest have a gift for me??

Farzana, you deserve one, but sorry. I do not get along with him and avoid him whenever possible.

halur, does your parish priest have a gift for me??

Farzana, you deserve one, but sorry. I do not get along with him and avoid him whenever possible.

Dear dost-mittar

Where have you been? I saw you in chowk after a long time. I intend to visit India soon, which has been my life`s desire, availing the oppotunity of visiting my grand-mother land offered by Indian Government`s recent announcement of allowing viza-free visit to citizens of Pakistan above 65. Can I see you there? If so please let me know your contact addresses - home, email, phone number, etc. at my following email address: -

talawat_shah@yahoo.co.in

As for the article I have the same feeling as expreesed by you. Farzana is indeed a great thinker and a great writer. But I won`t suggest her to write in the same vain about the Prophet of Islam. Though he had called himself a `Bashar` (a human being) and was in fact more human than any other prophet, but the Madrissa-production of today, at least in Pakistan, may treat it as a blasphemy with very terroristic consequences.

Very interesting article. Can`t really leave an educated comment, as Jesus and Christianity are two subjects (or is it one subject?) I know very little about. But thanks for the book recommendation.

``To those who might be remotely curious: I am interested in religions as political entities, as socio-psychological phenomena and how they impact our daily lives. Religion as religion is a deeply private matter and should be confined to the deep recesses of one`s mind and heart.``(FV)

Amen to that -- Farzana Versey -- with all my heart -- WISH you a great and a very HAPPY -- refreshingly rebellious -- inimitably iconoclastic -- pedestal breaking -- hero toppling - prophet humanizing -- YEAR 2005...

indeed -- we can take religion out of politics -- but we can never take politics out.......

Happy new year to Chowk readers, writers, inter-actors, and staff. May you see many more.

Mohammad Gill

Before this board disappears...I really wish I had been more active here, instead of fruitless acitivity elsewhere. But no point in regretting. I can only reiterate that to make prophets human gives divinity a greater accessibility, for those who wish to touch it. Those who want to stay afar and look up to it, it is a choice you make.

The very fact that the term prophet is used in common parlance should adequately convey this humanising fact.

To those who might be remotely curious: I am interested in religions as political entities, as socio-psychological phenomena and how they impact our daily lives. Religion as religion is a deeply private matter and should be confined to the deep recesses of one`s mind and heart.

Thank you all for the different points of view, the secular carols, the odes (nah, no one thanked me for the po`m on Mo!)...and I won`t wish only one community...I think all of you need to have a ball and kiss the mistletoe! (``only the lonely know...``)

Of course, I am not taking a break nor giving you one, so grin and bear it...

Regards,
Farzana

PS: For a `blasphemer`, I managed to get one person to go to Church...halur, does your parish priest have a gift for me??

re. digit #63

Hey, by no means is it an open-and-shut case that the bible considers Jesus the Son of Gos in the sense that it is now generally understood by 99 percent of practising Christians.

You write:
``I mean, we Muslims recast Christ all the time, however a fundamental link to God is still there...that`s simply undeniable. Naw, the idea of the Gospels espousing a Christ that was just another priest seems more far fetched to me than virgin births and miracles do to others here... ``

Well, Heres something you might find an interesting read, on the subject.

re. ``So what`s the deal here? The media stunts and books...sounds more like Jesus as a prop for entertainment or an imaginary drinking buddy rather than iconoclasm. ``

Well, forget iconoclasm (presumably for it`s own sake?) -- maybe some of us are jsut looking for the truth? Or at least the truth as was perceived by those who were actually touched and moved by the historical figure?

A very Happy Christmas to you too, halur. Hope whatever good feelings it brings your way lasts well into the new year!

M.B.Z.Isphahani

Do you have an L K Advani fetish?

For your information, true Vedantist does not have any prophecy of evil. Do what you want with your language but keep your facts straight.

I attended christmas service after years of not having stepped inside a church. Farzana, you are responsible -:).
Happy christmas everybody.

nasah #80 Ha! ha! Good one! Just for this, all your past sins on chowk are forgiven.

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dost mittar #75 Far be it for me to come between a man and his search for divinity - whether it be sufi music or any other form of music the ``food of the gods`` or anything else.

I dont know what services they provide at ajmer - but I would never trust an organization that claims to multi-task by providing spiritual as well as temporal relief. As such, I suspect that the ``overhead costs`` of that langar would be much greater than a well run run-of-the-mill charity and so I would rather give money to a charity which holds honesty to be more important than spirituality. As for masjid funds, I stopped contributing to them more than a decade ago - for the same reason I tossed away the fund-raising letter from ajmer: there is no accountability, and from all indications the money is misspent. True faith does not require money to prop it up. Only the man who makes money out of people`s fears by claiming to bring them closer to God needs such donations.

SR: The secularized christmas carol (a contradiction in terms of course, but what the heck) was certainly something one can drink to - even if the drink is non-alcoholic in case of us muslims as well as the more enlightened non-muslims :-)

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Here is one sung by the material girl(also sometimes the virgin)

---

Santa baby, slip a sable under the tree, for me
I`ve been an awful good girl
Santa baby, and hurry down the chimney tonight
Santa baby, an out-of-space convertible too, light blue
I`ll wait up for you dear
Santa baby, and hurry down the chimney tonight
Think of all the fun I`ve missed
Think of all the fellas that I haven`t kissed
Next year I could be oh so good
If you`d check off my Christmas list
Boo doo bee doo
Santa honey, I wanna yacht and really that`s
Not a lot
I`ve been an angel all year
Santa baby, and hurry down the chimney tonight
Santa cutie, there`s one thing I really do need, the deed
To a platinum mine
Santa cutie, and hurry down the chimney tonight
Santa baby, I`m filling my stocking with a duplex, and checks
Sign your `X` on the line
Santa baby, and hurry down the chimney tonight
Come and trim my Christmas tree
With some decorations bought at Tiffany`s
I really do believe in you
Let`s see if you believe in me
Boo doo bee doo
Santa baby, forgot to mention one little thing, a ring
I don`t mean a phone
Santa baby, and hurry down the chimney tonight
Hurry down the chimney tonight
Hurry down the chimney tonight

an ode to blasphemy:

sticks and stones can`t hurt my bone
but a word in jest n my top is blown

u can kick my groin u can bite my `kaan`
but u mention my phrophet and I`ll kill you john

I live with my faith in a house of cards
a misplaced whisper and the house is gone

SR thanks for holifying my Christmas `spirit` with that cheerful Christmas carol...

tahmed32:

``Why a person of your cosmopolitan background and intellect should go to this pir (as you mention) is beyond my understanding.``

Simple, because in spiritual music, this agnostic finds the closest thing to divinity.
Yes, there are charlatans in dargahs, but no more so than in temples, gurudwaras and masjids. You may have been asked for donation by the Ajmer khadims and the money will probably be used for langars for the poor besides widening the girths of some khadims, but you can be certain that it will not be used for killing innocent people by suicidal mujahideen, which is more than one can say of the donations collected after the friday prayers at masjids.

Nasah:
Thanks.

SR,
Beautiful poetry. If only power hungry and religious frenzied ``CONVERT THEM ALL`` humans are mentally as evolved asd cultured to even understand such poetry. But we shoudn`t stop our efforts to reach out with the message of peace and equality of all. No more naming of people as Satan/Evil if some people follow a different set of ideas. Keep up the spirits and keep fighting for peace. Humans by nature are reasonable beings. Thre are bound to see the reason, soon, rather than later.

A very interesting piece... And just before Christmas no less.

Let`s sing some CAROLS in unison... sing along... sing along

SILENT NIGHT

Silent night, filled with light.
All is calm, all is bright.
Man, the infant motherless child,
Wrapped in Nature, sweet and wild.
Sleep in comfort and peace.
Sleep in comfort and peace.

Silent night, star so bright,
Wish I may, wish I might
Give to all, especially Youth,
Love of Reason, Love of Truth,
That the world may have peace.
That the world may have peace.

Silent night, endless night.
All Mankind

---

end the fight.
Stop the hatred and bigotry, too.
Take my hand as I reach for you.
Brothers, living in peace.
Brothers, living in peace.


(Away in a Manger)
AWAY WITH THE DANGER

Away with the dangerous lies we`ve been told,
Of deities, virgins, and streets paved with gold.
Beliefs are the products of primitive minds.
Try asking some questions; and answers you`ll find.

The answers you find may upset you at first;
But you can`t ignore them. For knowledge, you thirst.
Although it`s more painful, it`s better to know
That the Bible can`t help you

---

it just isn`t so.

So, where do you turn when you`re lost and confused?
Look into your own mind. It`s time it was used.
Responsible people have always known,
To be strong in this world you must stand on your own.

You`re better off knowing just where you stand.
The promise of heaven is built upon sand.
There is no tomorrow, so live for today;
And help all your brothers you meet on the way.


THERE IS NO HELL
(To the tune of `The First Noel`)

There is No Hell, No Judgment Day;
No matter what some Fundamentalists say.
No Firey Pit, No Suffering, No Blame,
No one to Condemn and Consign you to Flame.

No Hell, No Hell, No Hell, No Hell.
Sing and be Joyful, there is No Hell.

There is no Sin, No Adam and Eve,
No Serpent that talks, as we`re taught to believe.
No Fall, No Cain, No Ark, No Flood,
No Savior to save us, when washed in his Blood.

No Hell, No Hell, No Hell, No Hell.
Sing and be Joyful, there is No Hell.

There is no Creed, No Religion that`s True.
And it`s time for believing in Me and in You.
We`re all we have.With death it all ends.
Can`t we all work together and try to be Friends?

No Hell, No Hell, No Hell, No Hell.
Sing and be Joyful, there is No Hell.

Copyright 1997, by Jerry Phillips

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``Unless you belong to the tableeghi jamaat, please go easy on those who offer sajdas to Ajmer wale khwaja or sing/hear qawaalis at the dargah of Hazrat Nizamuddin and other such places (that includes yours truly!). These `worshippers` teach nothing but love for their fellow humans and wont harm you in any way if you insult or abuse them and even the objects of their love and devotion.`` (dost-mitter)

you can say that again dost-mitter ji -- a colorful oasis in the colorless desert of Mohammed worshippers -- the one fun -- not found in the -- dreary dreadful deserterted desert of fun-damentalist Islam....

Farid in Pak Pattan in Punjab ... the Hindu keepers of Sufi mausoleums at the Haji Malang Baba`s Mausoleum -- Nizamuddin in Delhi -- and Khawaja Chishti in Ajmer -- the peagentry the singing, the celeberations -- intercommunal harmony the love -- the langar.....that is one Islam of worshippers of -- universal love and celeberations of life....

and then there is this Islam: ``I wont be able to say the same for those who `worship` the man whom they hold at least 10 notches above Allah; you can hurl explicit abuses at Allah to their face and not a `joon` will `raing`; but say a word which is remotely deemed to be disrespectful to the object of their `worship` and your life is endangered. That object of their worship cannot even be mentioned except in the most praiseworthy manner. His fear is so complete that his `worship` cannot even be called worship and has to disguised in terms such as love and respect.``

Neither have I, dost-mitter ji -- neither have I as a Muslim -- ever understood that -- why my brethren worship a human being -- without a face -- like a faceless God -- to a degree even more than God .......

...so much so as you rightly say -- you can insult a humanized GOD anytime you want to -- left and right....but you CANNOT -- a dehumanized Human being ever....or u`ll be hanged, or stabbed to death......or rot in jail for life...... why?

because for Word- Worshipping Mohammed worshippers -- living on Mohammed`s Words -- WORDS ARE stronger than -- ``Sticks & Stones`....

dost mittar #62 I beg to differ with you on the question of pirs/fakirs, and agree with you on the question of the prophet Muhammed.

On the question of pirs/fakirs: At best they divert attention from rational, practical courses of action by providing the false hopes. At worst, they are rip-offs who prey upon people who have little to spare anyway. You mention the pir of ajmer whom even musharaff seems to venerate - I once received a letter from India from this pir`s shop (which is basically what it is) asking for money. I of course tossed it away, but that to me is just one more proof that this entire piree/fakiree is one big rip off. Why a person of your cosmopolitan background and intellect should go to this pir (as you mention) is beyond my understanding.

On the question of the prophet Muhammed: I agree that there are many muslims who have accorded him a de facto divinity, and in this sense are no different than those who worship pirs/fakirs. However, this is a clear violation of the Quran which is very explicit on this matter (restricting the prophet`s role to that of a messenger and no more, and the forceful condemnation in the Quran of the accordance of divinity to any man or even the role of a middleman between the individual and God).

Herein lies the beauty of Islam - its simplicity, its stress on the equality of all individuals before God.

M.B.Z: Response to #66

MBZ, again you are going back to the religated relics to somehow show that God sent Mohamad as the latest Prophet Version. By your logic, God sends Prophets with updated versions every now and then and Version MO is the last one ever. No more upgrades and newer versions for 1400 years. Oh...Oh..Are you saying that god want us to live with a 1400 years old version which is heavily outdated and simply broke.

Did you also notice that since the last version, that of Version Mo, humans have evolved and the civilization has grown better by a few notches. No wonder there is no more newer versions. Coz we no longer will accept newer versions though Hitler , who was very similar to Mo, could have been and infact would have been a prophet if he was born even 1000 years ago, around 1000 AD.

Do not come here with the BS about judgement day, thats the ancient tribal belief. You make it sound like it is proven science. Besides go back and read my posts completely without emotions. Coz this judgement day has no relevance since anyways, all Non-muslims are banished to hell,if they dont convert. So the judgement is already there. Gandhi or Buddha or Confucious along with 80% of all humans go to hell, no matter they are good or bad. The judgement of the tribal arab Mo,who invoked God in one his many delusional orgies. So there is really no need for a separate day.

Just dont get into one of your emotional fits and stop thinking. Instead just relax, cool it down and rationalize. Also it wouldn`t hurt if you can pick up some NON-koranic books and start reading them instead of simply beliving the 1400 years old koranic propaganda which served very well to impose arabic language and culture in the name of God.

Anything that cant stand critical reasoning will be elminated by natural selection. As simple as that. Just quoting koranic verses means nothing. if you have time, go and meet a psychiatrist in an asylum and see how many paranoid megalomaniacs write Gods words in their delusional state. Just try. Are they all Prophets?

``Are we ready for radical thought? Are we ready to believe that Jesus was the leader of a faction of Essence priests, that he was not of virgin birth, that he did not die on the Cross?``

What for, and according to what? I mean, the only real source we have are the Gospels, and it takes a hell of a lot of stretching and bending to take the Christ-God relationship out of them. And it must be said, a load of smart people from varying disciplines (and three letters prefixing their name to boot) are trying...however I`m of the opinion that there is such a thing as over intellectualizing something that was written in more or less a straight forward manner.

I mean, we Muslims recast Christ all the time, however a fundamental link to God is still there...that`s simply undeniable. Naw, the idea of the Gospels espousing a Christ that was just another priest seems more far fetched to me than virgin births and miracles do to others here...

So what`s the deal here? The media stunts and books...sounds more like Jesus as a prop for entertainment or an imaginary drinking buddy rather than iconoclasm.

I find the more extreme of these modern recasts of the lift of Christ somewhat like making a marionette out of him and making him dance to our tune of choice...what would Jesus drive? What brand of soda pop would he endorse? Fork or spoon? Boxers or briefs? Missionary or doggy style? Before people break out in an off-tune rendition of ``What if God was one of us``, I gotta say this idea of surrounding the aura of religious figures such as Christ with the banalities of our modern existence gets tired really quick...

Christ as an ordinary human...who the hell needs that?!? There are already 5 billion + of us. Transcendentalism is out of fashion...fine...why take it out on Christ?

re: PM # 32

``Certainly, there is much in his language that is congruous with Buddhist and Hindu philosophy``

Very true. Except for its associated claims of exclusivity, the New Testament reads eerily like a montage of old Indian texts. Even ``I am the way`` is very much an ``Indian`` claim, consistent with much of Hindu and Buddhist philosophy.

``I am the way, come to Me…Neither the multitude of gods, nor great sages know my origin, for I am the source of all the gods and great sages.`` (from Bhagwat Gita)

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PM,

merry christmas to you too!

i guess you need to reread your bible as well (or not), it was mary magdalene who he appeared to first. :)

No one suggested so even for a second.

there is mention of Jesus not being able to balance his divinity and his humanity, perhaps both of us have not read that particular part of Farzana`s article?!

Well, you DO know how to switch quite effortlessly from semi-logical arguments to emotional ones

ah yes, the old emotional arguments trick. *mimicking maxwell smart* i will try not to fall for it this time. i fail to see what is so emotional about stating that more than a few humans are not fully human. there are examples of that scattered all around the world.

as for the rest of my silly statements, as well as my belief, again, we`re both familiar with each other`s beliefs (or non-beliefs). i am not here to convince you or anyone otherwise. i had some observations to make. i made them. just as you`ve made yours. :)

take care and happy new year. . .

Farzana,
Well maybe I was a bit strong on my earlier comments. But my point is, nobody questions when Jesus is de-mythified and questioned and brought down from his legendary status to one of a commoner. But can the same thing can be done about Mohamad without protests and fatwas issued.

Can we say ``MO``(short for Mohamad) was a deluded arab warrior who had great humor in calling Non-Arabs as satan/evil and enjoyed his sessions with GOD. MO being prophet, had regular sessions of talks with God in his dreams or during one of his paranoid convulsions.
Mo infact was a better imperialist than the British themselves coz he had successfully terrorized and converted 1.2 billion people to his tribal Arab beliefs and culture.

Mo, thanks for teaching the islamic world to hate Gandhi or Buddha or Confucious coz they are evil/satan who go straight to hell. Who cares about good deeds. All Allah wants is to follow the tribal arab myths, superstitions and customs. And god cant even understand any NON-ARABIC langauge. So if I believe in ONE UNIVERSAL GOD but calls that god as ``Bhagawan`` then MO the Tribal Arab warrior tells the world that the so called Universal GOD gets angry and sends me to hell. Nice ``tribal`` Humor Mo. Why? Coz the Universal god cant understand any other language other than Arabic.

Mo, and how is that when I change my name from RAM to MOHAMAD , how does that change me. And If I started following the ARAB Customs and myths, how does that change the person in me. Suddenly the SATAN becomes angel, just by a name change. Wonderful Mo. Mo, I understand you never intended to create any religion or convert people to ur tribal arab beliefs. You were simply a deluded megalomanaic. Cant really blame you. And Cant really blame the il-literate arab tribal followers of you who in their frenzy of doing gods work killed, raped and plundered the so called SATANIC world. But Mo, the much maligned Hindus(meaning Indians,coz Hindu is really a geographical term) stopped not just your crusaders but also ur fellow semitic christ frenzy mob on your tracks and halted your drive to convert the entire world between yourselves. I doubt anybody else other than the hindus would have done it. The chinese maybe, but i doubt it. The chinese are strong ethnically but weak religiously and culturally. So thanks to the Hindus the world is saved from the brutalization of 2 blood thirsty frenzied mobs.

But Mo, what I dont understand is how can people in 2004 believe that crap BS? And that too highly educated people otherwise very reasonable and intelligent. But all faculties fail when it comes to questioning you and ur Koranic delusional blabbering. MO, but i gotta give one thing to you, there is no better BRAND builder than you and your competitor the church. But too bad, it still wasn`t enough when both were soundly defeated by Hindus.

Farzana, how do you like that? Now if only the so called progressive muslims like you can write a piece that will de-mythify Mo. If a Non-muslim writes it then they become satan. If more and more muslims write it then that will collapse the il-logical dogmas making a revolution in islam. It will happen,eventually coz the world progresses based on Natural selection.

tahmed32#46:

`` Worry about our own muslim ummah that worships pirs and faqirs and other rogues as if they were sons of God.``

Unless you belong to the tableeghi jamaat, please go easy on those who offer sajdas to Ajmer wale khwaja or sing/hear qawaalis at the dargah of Hazrat Nizamuddin and other such places (that includes yours truly!). These `worshippers` teach nothing but love for their fellow humans and wont harm you in any way if you insult or abuse them and even the objects of their love and devotion.

I wont be able to say the same for those who `worship` the man whom they hold at least 10 notches above Allah; you can hurl explicit abuses at Allah to their face and not a `joon` will `raing`; but say a word which is remotely deemed to be disrespectful to the object of their `worship` and your life is endangered. That object of their worship cannot even be mentioned except in the most praiseworthy manner. His fear is so complete that his `worship` cannot even be called worship and has to disguised in terms such as love and respect.


PM:

I think that there is some truth to those claims. I remember that a yogi in India once declared with great fanfare that he was to be buried and not to be taken out before 60 days. As I recall, he made some noises and had to be brought out after a couple of days. But he did survive those two days.

#57 by PM

[Silly theories aside, is this true of practitioners of yoga/pranayam??? I mean, are they able to hold their breath for days!?!?]

Yes there are! I don’t know whether they could do it for days together, but my Yoga master could hold his breath for at least 6 hours (that’s the time I spent watching him. I soon got bored and left). My friends who stayed back said he held it for a further 6 hours. When I spoke to him later, he said his gurus in the Himalayas are capable of holding their breaths for weeks, if not months. He also said that Pranayama helps prevent ageing, and practitioners were healthier and looked and felt younger than they actually are. This has helped them live longer too.

I really do not know what to say, but this was not a criticism of Christ, for Chrissake. PM, halur, explain no? How does this qualify as a parody of Christ? From which angle are you looking? And what is this...`write about Islam and write about blah and blah...` I wanted to write about this, so I wrote. And how conveniently paras 7/8 are ignored, where I have in fact mentioned the touchiness of Muslims.

PM:

There is a book, `Jesus in India`. My country is really a happening place.

May elaborate on some posts later...meanwhile thanks for those who wrote in. Many responses are indeed far better than the article itself. I do bring out the best in people :)

re. #56, ana

Noooloo, fusst of all, Mary Christmas!

achha.. your point is well taken about EO-porphet bashing... or at least religion-bashing. I sent a post in reply to one by armughal, in which i pointed out the inanity of trying to prove the incorrectness of one dogma by reference to another, but chowk swallowed it up.

khair... about the `facrical` comment i made... Tell me how any same person is to believe (assuming s/he buys the possibility of ressurection to begin with) that a mother (or was it the other Mary-- Martha ki behn?) can hold a conversation with the resurrected man himself and NOT realize it was him!? (She thought it was the tombkeeper!)
And then, then there`s the fact that not all the (NT) gospels even mention something as (you`d think) important as the Resurrection.

aanyway... Iget what you mean about matter of faith, but personally think that faith should never offend simple common sense/ reason.

you write: ``i find myself rather drawn to jesus, and his words, his smile and his laughter. ``

Which Jesus are we talking about here? the Willem Deofe one or James Cavaziel wala? Coz Isure as heck don`t think anyone has any idea of Jesus`s smile, or laughter. (BTW, what references to his laughter are there in the NT anyway? I`m not saying I think he wasn`t probably a cool guy who could see the funny side of life, but then, that`s probably what I WANT to believe about him.)

``...but even after all this learning, and reading, i am hardpressed to strip jesus of his divinity.``

Oh C`mon ana, you know that`s a silly thing to say. I mean, I can cite any number of PhD`s in Literature and history or even Divinity that still believe in things like djinns and Prophets ascending seventh heaven and what not.. and all because their momma`s told them so at a very young age.

`` i don`t believe that jesus has been incapable of being fully human and fully divine.``
No one suggested so even for a second.

``i do believe that more than a few of us humans have been incapable of being fully human. but then what do i know?``

Well, you DO know how to switch quite effortlessly from semi-logical arguments to emotional ones. :-)

re. #44 by dost-mittar on December 22, 2004 12:57pm PT
[...did you hear that Jesus had learnt the art of Yoga and Pranayam during his claimed stay in India? According to this theory, he had mastered the ability to hold his breath for several days;]

Silly theories aside, is this true of practitioners of yoga/pranayam??? I mean, are they able to hold their breath for days!?!?

re. tahmed #46
Farzana was ``being funny about`` JC here? jeez! could`ve fooled me, that girl!

hamidm, As of now, you are known because of chowk.
I think it is high time chowk is known because of you.
If you expect as many cheerleaders as urstruly has, I think you will be disappointed, but still, I say, go for it.

i know it`s only been a week. . . but i was online and dash it all, i just couldn`t resist. . .

tussaud`s is all about celebrities, isn`t it? does it really matter if david and victoria are joseph and mary, and yes, the bumbling blair and bush. it`s just their representation. if caviezel can be christ, what stops victoria from being mary? is caviezel a more moral and chosen one than victoria. it`s rather baffling, boggling and all a bunch of bollocks!

i suppose everyone is entitled to chuckle about the ``silly theories`` regarding christ`s birth, life, death and resurrection. it`s been anything goes, or open season for a long long time on what atheists, non-believers, and ``apostates`` call the irrationality of christ`s story among those of other paighambars and gods. but these aren`t just silly theories to some folk. these are matters of faith, like believing that gabriel told mohammad to write is a matter of faith, like singing ``om jai jagdish hare`` is more than just chanting a few words in front of a figurine.

but since i mentioned silly theories (and i didn`t mention or imply it first), there has been a lot that has been written and said about christ`s life. it`s interesting. one certainly doesn`t have to take all of it seriously, just as one doesn`t take the purana and naya ehadnaameh seriously and says that the gospels actually prove that christ`s resurrection was a farce. it`s all quite interesting. and some of the responses are more interesting than the article itself.

there is a beautiful poem written in spanish by sor juana de la cruz, i think, called ``la noche oscura``. . . in which she expresses her love for her christ in beautiful and ecstatic terms. i have limited access to the internet right now otherwise i`d search for it and say more. i find myself rather drawn to jesus, and his words, his smile and his laughter. and i think its wonderful that there are those who want to humanize him because one of the reasons, if not the reason christ was crucified was for his humanity. but even after all this learning, and reading, i am hardpressed to strip jesus of his divinity. i don`t believe that jesus has been incapable of being fully human and fully divine. i do believe that more than a few of us humans have been incapable of being fully human. but then what do i know?

and folks, this is an article about JC. mohammad`s life is no less interesting, but if non-muslim scholars can write commentaries about mohammad and islam and the muslim world, certainly a journalist like Farzana can feel qualified to comment on her opinions on the beautiful and smiling JC. they are opinions afterall. . . there are some who have written words about the prophet mohammad which set off bells every single time. and those are opinions too. . . but hey, no equal opportunity prophet bashing here! perhaps those of you who are overly anxious can ``bhanDa phoRo`` and shed some light on the ``can`t touch this`` mohammad yourself, eh?

oh yeah, and if any of you are celebrating christmas inspite of the tussaud`s controversy which i didn`t even know about until now, merry christmas! (i guess one does learn something new on chowk afterall). i`ll be getting back to helping out with preparations meself.

All,
It is good that the muslims and some non-muslims understand the methods and ways adopted by teh west to Colonize the Non-Western, Non-Christian Mind. But the next target should be to deal with the Arab Imperialism imposed on the Non-Arabs in the guise of Islam. Anybody up for it. Maybe the so eloquent farzana will take a shot at it :)

Regards.

why is all that is good is attacked? santa is absolutely great, i saw two cute twin women get their picture taken with him in the mall, and that was pure delight.

please dont harass santa baba, i am going to light some lamps in front of my Balsam Fir tonite, gather neighborhood kids and sing a santa baba aarti..actually he reminds me of one of our own rotund gods who is also a hit among kids..he too has a red-nosed mouse.

so sing kids..

jai santa, jai santa, jai santa baba
pls get me a present, drink up some java

(PS if enyone know a good Santa Aarti please share it).

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hamidm

go for it bro

main hooN na

so what is another identity and `protection`

Looks like some want to get rid of white domination of christianity and associated brainwashing.

I am sure this will happen immediately after muslims will have names like Ramdas Singh and Laxmi, and we start breaking out fast with a Coconut instead of a Date.

Deconstruction is a popular industry in India. Commies do it out of spite and there are also plenty of mainstream researchers..here are some interesting books about Mahabharat.


Yuganta, Prof Iravati Karve, Sangam Books (1991) ISBN: 0863110983

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0863110983/qid=1103745375/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl14/102-0369486-8525726?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

https://www.vedamsbooks.com/no36790.htm

Farzana: Forget about Jesus. Worry about our own muslim ummah that worships pirs and faqirs and other rogues as if they were sons of God. And I dare you to take up hamidm on his challenge to try and be funny about some muslim hero.

This one`s been doing the e-mail rounds for a couple of years! Something newer, please.

Romair, As I`m sure you know, Santa/Father Christmas is fat, white, and dressed in those weird red robes because the figure/s from whom he derives (not just St Nicholas) is/are pre-Christian mythical beings from Finland/Scandinavia/Russia who used to be part of the winter festivities in pagan Europe (centring on 25 Dec in most of Europe, which is why the early Christians decided to celebrate that day as Jesus`s birthday, while it`s more probable that he was actually born in summer, in June). Incidentally, the Finnish Santa was not the loveable old man he`s supposed to be today but quite a frightening person, who used to turn up to punish all the children who were naughty throughout the year.
Ultimately, truth will out. No wonder the religiosity is going out of Christmas and we`re back to the winter celebrations of the eternal cycle of fertility in Nature.
A lot of appropriation going on there. The early Christians were clever politicians, weren`t they?

the life of rizwan ......

......... i just can`t get it out of my head ..... i am seriously thinking about writing the script ...... is anyone intrested ?.......... i am willing to risk life and limb if anyone shows just a little bit of interest........... all i need is a little bit of encouragement .......no?

hamidm #26: ``since romair asked the question - he is always asking silly questions! - here is the answer .........``

Perhaps a silly question, for you and me (or is it you and I). But don`t tell that to Kunta Kinte, who ended up a slave. Or Colin Powell, who got fired instead of Rummy. Or to Jesse Jackson, who would be voted in as President, in a hearbeat, if your Evangelist brothers in arms realized Jesus was Black.

Here is some info, on what he may have looked like:

``What did Jesus Look Like?
31-Dec-2002

He Was Not Blond

Israeli and British forensic anthropologists and computer programmers have recreated what they think Jesus might have looked like. He has a broad face, dark olive skin, short curly hair and a large nose. The researchers think he would have weighed 110 pounds and been 5-foot-1-inch tall. Their evidence is reported in this month`s issue of Popular Mechanics magazine. ``Using archaeological and anatomical science rather than artistic interpretation makes this the most accurate likeness ever created,`` says TV reporter Jean Claude Gragard. ``It isn`t the face of Jesus, because we`re not working with the skull of Jesus, but it is the departure point for considering what Jesus would have looked like.``

.....Medical artist Richard Neave and his team started with an Israeli skull from the 1st century AD. They used computer programs, clay, simulated skin and their knowledge about the Jewish people of that time to figure out the shape of the face and the color of eyes and skin. They determined his hair style from the Bible, where Paul says, “If a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him.” http://archives.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/12/25/face.jesus/index.html)

The site has a picture of the average Jewish person in that timeframe, based on the computer diagrams. Looks quite a bit different from the robed, tall, blond, that Michaelangelo painted, and which has become the standard portrait of Jesus. Gibson in his latest movie, deviated a bit, by giving Jesus black hair. But he still remained with the tall, white guy theory......

So he certainly wasn`t White. Either black (like Ethiopian Jews) or a dark-skinned Middle Eastern look..............

Manto, PM:

While we are discussing silly theories, did you hear that Jesus had learnt the art of Yoga and Pranayam during his claimed stay in India? According to this theory, he had mastered the ability to hold his breath for several days; this is what he did while at the cross and while buried underground.

re.Manto, #31: ``Jesus Christ died a normal death after escaping his cave like grave. ``
Really? Are u referring to the gospel of thomas?
waisey, from the accounts in the four `kosher` gospels, its actually clear that the whole resurrection, if not death, thingie was a farce. Okay.. it`s Christmas, so let`s be nice... scratch `farce` and replace with `symbolic` :)

``Jesus Christ died a normal death after escaping his cave like grave. There is enough evidence to suggest that. ``

What kind of evidence? In any case, requiring to escape from a grave is hardly a `normal` death...:-)

#39
You want non-white christians to get their rights, do you? How about starting in your own country? Us brown christians will gladly accept a blonde JC, in return for pakstani christians not being slaughtered like sheep, dispossesed from their homes and jailed for professing their faith. After that we can talk about Sanat Claus` skin colour.

Farzana,
It is good to see that Christ is being seen as a Human and everybody has a right to question and critically evaluate Christ or Buddha or Krishna without being threatened of getting killed. Imagine the hue and cry that would have been raised if Mohamad the Paranoid Megalomanaic was questioned and koran critically evaluated with the BS about Non-Muslims being Satan/Evil exposed with logic and critical reasoning.

Farzana, Will you write an article about Moahamad Parodying him as tribal Arab warrior who shot into limelight thanks to the ignorance and stupidity of the Arab tribes. If only the Arabs had the luxury of Psychiatrists or mental asylums, we needn`t have to deal with yet another parasitic virus, which has to convert everybody and make the whole world follow tribal arab beliefs and myths Un-questioningly. The good thing is humans of today have identified Hitler as paranoid Megalomanaic and not call him Prophet. Thanks to a more open world and much better communication systems.

It is only when Muslims start questioning Mohamad and tear him apart, like they have the license to tear apart Jesus or Krishna or Buddha, then a more open and progressive Islam will arise out of the introspection. But for some reason Muslims consider Mohamad to be ``Holier than thou`` even though they feel they have the right to tear apart jesus or krishna. That basic hypocrisy has to change. It will change. Just a matter of time. But we need open paths for that change.

Thanks.

The more I think about it, the more I am begining to realize how brainwashed all us non-White guys and ladies are.

Let`s leave Jesus and Santa aside, for a while.

Why is everyone on my favorite TV show, Star Trek, White? Barring the odd African-American (who wouldn`t be on the show, if he weren`t American). The Captains are all White (except the African-American guy on Deep Space Nine). The crew is 95% White, barring the odd exception in the form of a Korean or Japenese guy (who will never be Captain).

This would be bad enough, i.e the whole crew of the Enterprise is White with the odd American Black guy; and the odd chapta from Korea and Japan thrown in for diversity. What is worse is that the ship is filled with aliens. There are people from Vulcan and Klingon and God knows where else. But there is no one from Punjab, Sind or even from the best city in the world, Vereesh`s Delhi. There are guys from other planets named Spock and Wharf, but no one from Earth named Allah Rakha or Rsexana. Not even Hamidm or Urstruly or dost-mittar. Or Arjun_m, even.

And why aren`t there are Arabs on the ship? Why isn`t there someone named Saddam, or Osama on the ship? Or at least a Muhammad or Farzana?

The above, obviously, cannot be correct. Since in the next centuries, the world will consist primarily of Chinese and South Asians. We are the only communities who are breading like (or have alreaddy bred like) rabbits, while the White man`s birth rate is going negative. Yet, we will not be on the Enterprise. What the hell will we be doing in the 24th century? Still working at the local 7-Eleven or the local Szechuan Chinese Garden or the Vegetarian dhabba in Bangalore?

So the history of the world consisted of Blue-eyed, White skinned, blond haired Prophets and Santa Clauses, who ironically were born in the Middle East, amongst black and brown dark-haired people. And the future will consist of blond-haired, blue-eyed, white skinned space explorers, who will join hands with people from other planets (but not with people from the Asia or Africa on their own planet). And the only way you can get a side spot on the ship, is if you are Black guy who ended up in the White lands.


P.S. Not only are all the Captains White (except one, whose show no one watches), they all have blonde hair. Even though less than 10% of Americans are natural blondes.

There is one desi guy named Dr. Bashir on Deep Space Nine. Don`t know where he is Indian or Pakistani. Interestingly on the one show where the Captain is a Black guy.

Since we are on the subject, what about Santa Claus? Why is Santa Claus always a fat White elderly man? Why isn`t he Mexican? Or Chinese? Or maybe he looked like Jesse Jackson. Maybe he looked like PM and/or Ijaz Gul.

If you really think about it, he lives in the North Pole, or somewhere close by to the North Pole. The closest people to the North Pole are Eskimos, or Inuits (as they are called in Canada).

More than likely, Santa Claus looks like (or actually is) an Eskimo. He definitely could not have been an elderly version of a person with long blond hair, White skin and blue eyes.

The White man has us all brainwashed. Especially the non-White Christians. Its about time, they demanded their rights, and asked for Jesus and Santa to be shown in their true colors (no pun intended).

Pretty soon, they will be telling us that Jesus looked like George Bush and Sanata looked like Dick Cheney.........

I don`t know about Jesus, but I do know that Elvis is alive.

There was a survey in Britain, where people voted on who they thought had more influence on their lives. The choices were a) God b) David Beckham.

If I remember the results correctly, around 30% voted for David Beckham. I wonder how many would have voted for Elvis.

People react in a funny and hypocrite manner to such things as who portrayed what religious character. You`ll have a guy who has never gone to church screaming about who played Jesus (as) and you will have this guy who has never followed anything what Muhammad (saw) said, but will be the first one to react with anger when Muhammad`s (saw) character is assigned to a `sinning infidel`.

We`ve got far more important things to worry about with regards to religion than such petty issues.

But you know Farzana, I don`t think Jesus (as) would mind smiling at you if you called him JC. But at the time he is smiling all his disciples would be frowning.

The `Jesus is dead` theory is believed only by the small groups called ahmadis and the other called pervaizis (or Quraniyeen), both of which are considered non-muslims by the mainstream muslims. So, the Islamic view of Jesus (as) is that he did not die, and Quran has enough material to justify it and hadith confirms it too.

But, you can`t argue with such people. They want proof for everything. Tomorrow they might say that Jesus (as) never existed and was invented by Homer. And guess what, Jesus (as) would still smile.

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Jesus Christ died a normal death after escaping his cave like grave. There is enough evidence to suggest that. Apparently an important question in the Muslim World... is whether Jesus alive or dead? What can we say about the ``ummah`` then?

The Rationalists believe that he is dead, but they are an insignificant minority. But we find from the writings of ``islaaf`` that early Muslims probably didn`t believe that he is still alive.

The Tolu-e-Islam school of thought, based on Parvez`s teachings, from Lahore believes that not only is Jesus is dead... but he was not born of virgin birth either...

I am yet to find another Islamic school of thought with such a rational approach to religion.

Hey Farzana! Nice write up, if a little ummm.. long :-) and overreaching (Well, I mean Theiring`s thesis)
But I agree with her premise and this is just superb: ``“If the reading of it is a serious difficulty now, it is because the person of Jesus has been allowed to lose all humanity, contrary to the Church’s own desire to teach full humanity with divinity. It has rarely achieved such a balance for the natural reason that it is almost impossible to hold both concepts together.”

If you`re interested in further reading, there is Albert Nolan`s Jeus Before Christianity. Nolan is/was actually appointed head of the Doinican Order (he declined) and a well-known liberation theologian. He presents the (com)passionate view of Jesus and argues that his divinity is NOTHING without his humanity...

Have also come across the thesis that Jesus, in the `missing years` may well have gone to India, and learned a few tricks from gurus there. Certainly, there is much in his language that is congruous with Buddhist and Hindu philosophy and sound-bites.

Have you read or seen The Last Temptation of Christ? I thought it was a fantastic story! Or at least beautifully crafted.

re. Arjun_M @1:
But.. maybe he was! I mean, count the refernces to ``my beloved diciple``.. and he sure as hell didn`t mean Peter, on whom he decided to build his church yadda yadda...

---

hmmm.. interesting article that, in #9.

Due to public demand...a little poem

Hey Mo, won`t you smile for me
And change my river into a sea?
I don`t want your desert
I don`t want your camel
I don`t want dates dropping with glee.

Tell them it isn`t so weird
Only because I like beards
I don`t even know what you look like
Yet they ask me to go take a hike
Like a fool I ask for a raise
They say I don`t deserve any praise
Only `coz I didn`t tell you to
Let your jaws break.

So, hey Mo, won`t you smile for me?
- - -

Merry Christmas halur...Bandra is really bling-blinging.

More later.

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since romair asked the question - he is always asking silly questions! - here is the answer .........

WHAT WAS JESUS?

There were 3 good arguments that Jesus was Black:
1. He called everyone ``brother``.
2. He liked Gospel.
3. He couldn`t get a fair trial.

But then there were 3 equally good arguments that Jesus was Jewish:
1. He went into His Father`s business.
2. He lived at home until he was 33.
3. He was sure his Mother was a virgin and his mother was sure he was God.

But then there were 3 equally good arguments that Jesus was Italian:
1. He talked with his hands.
2. He had wine with every meal.
3. He used olive oil.

But then, there were 3 equally good arguments that Jesus was a Californian:
1. He never cut his hair.
2. He walked around barefoot all the time.
3. He started a new religion.

But then, there were 3 equally good arguments that Jesus was Irish:
1. He never got married.
2. He was always telling stories.
3. He loved green pastures.

But the most compelling evidence of all -- 3 proofs that Jesus was a woman:

1. He fed a crowd at a moment`s notice when there was no food.
2. He kept trying to get a message across to a bunch of men who just didn`t get it.
3. And even when he was dead, He had to get up because there was more work to do!

Re: #6
kaka: good post!

Romair #19,
You dont seem to be a very big Madonna fan.Watched her video ``Like a prayer``?

Nikki beti,

humay koi itraaz nahin agar aap yaan loee aur Muhammed kee khoj karain. yaan uskee tasveer banaain.

mazhab kee har baat shakhs ko jazbati kar deti hai

Farzana, these ideas aren`t new, as you know. Even the Unitarians so long ago believed something like this. The Last Temptation, The Gospel according to Jesus, etc., etc., are only a few of the recent attempts to project Jesus as a human being for the ``common man`` (whoever that is). Helps to sell. (It`s all about the money, honey.) And now, as Jawahara in #7 points out, it`s become part of popular folklore, thanks to Dan Brown`s The Da Vinci Code. Yogananda`s suggestions are really part of Hindu thinking at least since the time of Ramakrishna Parahamsa. I remember long, long ago, being taken to Jesus`s grave in Kashmir. And being told of his marriage and his progeny and descendants.
We all know that the Bible, especially the New Testament, was a very human construct, of what some people wanted to establish as the Word of God, for their own purposes. Especially the portrayal of Mary Magdalene.
BTW, the word is Essene, not Essence.
The thing is that Christians don`t regard Jesus as a prophet but as God, which makes a difference, doesn`t it? How about deconstructing all prophets/versions of God?
For Hindus this wouldn`t be troublesome, but conventional Christians are as close-minded as anybody else, and one can hear howls of protest across the US and Australia - interestingly, the Europeans, and the Brits, are quite relaxed about this.
Hindu icons are fair game, of course, but what happens if someone writes like this about the Prophet of Islam?

FV:
Can you do a piece on Mo`s pedo-flame on Ash next time.. ? that would be something new...

cheers

Nikki,
Religion makes people different. About 10 years ago, when I lived in Bombay, one of the evening papers had a outline of a figure, which some claimed was a silhouette of Mohammed. In no time a mob gathered outside the newspapers offices and threatened to kill the editor. Ultimately the police defused the situation. You and me may find this outrageous, but that is how religions make people different. And Farzana is not to blame for that.

Romair, obviously Jesus is shown as blond, blue-eyed, etc., because he was appropriated by Europeans, who used him to ``civilize`` and convert the colonies, who were most impressed by the whiteman so different from themselves. Haven`t you seen brown Jesuses in 20th-century South Asian iconography (and black, even negroid, Jesuses in African ones)? As a Jew I guess he`d look like a Jew is conventionally supposed to look like - regardless of the shroud of Turin etc.
But how would images of Jesus or other religious icons propagate strife even further?

..... life of rizwan ?

.......... it has been a long time since monty python made that wonderful classic that so many of us have seen so many times and have grown to love so much .......... it has been almost twenty five years and civilization has come a long way - people have learned to laugh at their silly superstitions even though they still look up to make sure a thunderbolt is not headed their way as they make fun of all those prophets of the past who walked the earth either barefooted or in hippie sandals ........... so, i think it is time for someone to make ``life of rizwan `` ....... no?.......

.......... personally, i think it would be a hoot ........ think of the possibilities ........... anybody wants to take a shot at putting together a script ?......... man, oh man !......... my imagination is running wild !......... anybody wants to offer me a couple of million bucks for a script that would rock the world ? ......... make it fifteen million and a new identity plus a mansion on a tropical island guarded by bernard kerik and man-eating sharks and i will do it !

.... forget it !.......it ain`t worth the risk .......... let`s just pick on poor jc instead - everybody has been picking on him since his father abandoned him at birth ....... did you know they are making another movie about him : passion 2 - jesus strikes back ! ........ it is a kung fu movie with chuck norris as jesus of nazareth and he kicks the crap out the romans, the money lenders, the priests and all those other people who made fun of him ............

........ but it is still bugging me....... this idea, this movie, life of rizwan ........... i can think of so many hilarious lines, so many sidesplitting scenes - it would be so much fun .............promise!.............somone has to do it ........

HP #15: I am not sure whether having pictures of religious figures is such a good idea. It would do more harm than good. There is already enough division in religions, it would furthur propogate it.

As an example, consider what Christ has been drawn out to be. He is always shown as a blond haired, blue eyed, white skinned man. His height seems around six feet and his hair is long and wavy.

I am not an expert anthropologist (or whatever field relates to this subject). However, I find it hard to believe that a man in the Middle East from Bethlehem would be white-skinned. I doubt he would have blue eyes. And th long wavy blond hair is really out of the question. And from what I have heard, Jews of those times were in the five and half feet range; not six feet.

One would guess Jesus looked more Arab than anything else. Curly brownish hair, wheatish complexion, with brown eyes. I even read somewhere that Jesus could have been a Black man.

How did he end up looking like the White man of Europe. Because, it would have turned the whole society upside down, had he turned out to be Black. Or drawn Black. I am still waiting for a Jesus related movie, with a Denzel Washington in the lead role. Since Jesus was painted White, hence slavery etc. was not big issue.

If people started drawing the Muhammad, he would be painted based on whomever can fund the paintings the most. There would be a Wahabi drawing, Shia drawing, Naqshbandi drawing, Ahmedi drawing and what not.

Religion should be debated, discussed, critiqued, researched till the cows come home. It should not be ridiculed. And most of all, it should never be turned into a commercial venture......Even if religion, nowdays sells as much as sex and violence.

I am always amazed how certain people go out of their way to keep religion out of politics, but have no problems with pushing religion into commercialism. If religion in commercial ventures is freedom of expression, then so is religion in politics. One can`t have it both ways............

#15

heh heh mr iconophile, go ahead and do a picture..maybe just on chowk perhaps?

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Post # 13.
Why is mockery so terrible ? It is a good thing for the human condition to have our prophets
knocked about and their clay feet shattered.
As one born into the christian faith I find nothing offensive about Farzana`s article.

``hey mo, won`t you smile for me``

Sometimes I think Hamidm is a prophet himself! But seriously why not? Why Muslims can’t have mo smile for them?
There are taboos in every religion but most of the time those taboos are generally shared through out all regions. But Islam has different meaning for different people if they live in different geographical environments.
There was a time in Iran when you can actually find prophet Mohammed’s picture. In fact, I have seen his pictures in many Iranian publications. Not only his picture, but also pictures of all Khalifas and other sundry religious figures.
I think some Arab countries do not have a problem with religious figures pictures. Ali’s pictures are commonly available in Iraq and I think in Jordon too.
In India and Pakistan, one of the many rules that cannot be bent, is the picture of the Prophet and his khalifa.
Some Islamic publications have described the physical attributes of Prophet in details and if you could describe such details in words then why not let an artist draw a picture that would probably closely resemble the prophet?
I heard that Islam places restrictions on Picture taking, drawing or painting. But when we can have pictures of all holy places displayed all over the town, when you can have all mullah demonstrate with Khana Kaaba on their shoulders, why would they object to pictures of some holy people?
How is it less respectful to look at the picture and more respectful when you don’t look at the picture?

I used to think sex and violence were the only things that sold. If one could not direct a good book or a good movie, add some sex and some violence to it. And it will definitely get a certain loyal audience. If Chowk were to today add some sex to this site, its hit count would go through the roof.

Now, I think another aspect needs to be added to it: religion. Sex, violence and religion sell. If one becomes a tele-evangelist like Fallwell, Israr and Benny Hinn, one can become a millionaire and even enter politics. And even be declared the next, ``savior.`` If on the other hand one can slanderize religion like Rushdie, Manji, and moviemakers from Holland, one can achieve the same, ``savior`` status with a different crowd.

Either Jerry Fallwell is going to save mankind or Salman Rushdie will. I am still waiting with my toes crossed. Why are all these, ``saviors`` so wealthy? Religion has served them well.

Back to the article: You have gone from BJP, to Vagina to J.C, in your writings. With these topics, you seem to have covered the violence, sex and religion spectrum, respectively and completely. It seems as though, ever since the demise of the BJP, you are running out of topics to write on. The easy way out is to get into writing about Vaginas and Prophets. But that is a slippery slope, since it relies more on controversy and less on content.

Perhaps it is time to start concentrating more on content, and less on, ``shock`` value. Articles outside of the BJP, female sexual parts, and religious entities would be greatly appreciated.

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Dear Farzana:

This is too deep for me! But I am glad that you chose to discuss JC as a human being. I believe that a discussion forum such as this should not hesitate to discuss the lives of all prophets and religious figures - dead or alive - especially if they are supposed to still serve as role models for us.

Farzana

Merry Christmas - and Happy New Year

I wish we could discuss so comfortably about all the Prophets - they were all fallible humans.

nhk

``As a woman, I find the idea of a male prophet who is vulnerable quite tantalising``

How about Satya Sai Baba or the Kanchi Seer? Are they tantalizing or they need to dead Prophets? In that case, would you dare or care to explore (with delicious pleasure offcourse) vulnerabilities of some other prophets?

start with using only initials to refer to the prophet .. baby steps.. (e.g. S.K Yadav for Bhagvan Shri Krishna, R.B.D for ram-bin-dashrath etc.).

thanks.

fv,

............... i am getting sick and tired of everyone picking on poor jc .......... film makers, archaeologists, historians, writers and other hucksters think it is okay to question poor jc`s paternity and dig into his sex life ........... look, like the rest of them, he too was a prophet and deserves some respect - or is he just chopped liver ? ........... now, why don` you run along and write something like ``hey mo, won`t you smile for me`` ? ........ i am sure that you can find plenty of material ........no? ....

............ remember, he died for us on the cross and `` his death will stand as a landmark in the continuing struggle to liberate the parentland from the hands of the Roman imperialist aggressors excluding those concerned with drainage, medecine, roads, housing, education, viniculture, and any other Romans contributing to the welfare of jews of both sexes, and hermaphrodites`` (brian)

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I enjoyed this Farzana. This image of the vulnerable Jesus who might have faltered and even questioned what his destiny asked of him is the reason I found The Last Temptation of Christ so powerful. Like most modern women I have also been fascinated by Mary Magdalene, especially the new interpretations and the knowledge that she went from being a decent woman to prostitute because of deliberate tamperings with the testament. Interesting!

I would image the continuing success of The Da Vinci Code also proves that the humanness of Jesus and his relationship with Mary totally enthralls people.

Of course, if JC (divine or not) was around he would be a long haired peacenik and would probably be hated by the religious right that takes his name all day along.

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I understand the irresistable urges to copy whiteman agnostics and atheists but why do we have to be so disrespectful towards religious figures, even if they are of other people. Why can`t brown agnostics have their own code of ethics. Why are they so incapable of ``free thinking``?

<
Good one that!

A very happy christmas to you, Farzana.

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ranting and rambling as usual...is chowk that desperate for pieces to publish?

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