Point of View, 1971 Through Now

Sadna, you can read urdu? I am impressed!

Urstruly`s article says essentially(it took me 3/4 of an hour and more than a few words are still a deep mystery), that not only Pakistan did nothing when India built the border fence it was smoking bhang in the 12 years that India was building the Bagliar Dam. In addition, it is clear that India is responsible for inciting the trouble in South Waziristan and Baluchistan. Why wasn`t the lady doctor`s case taken care of and India denied that opportunity?

The US had threatened that it would send Pakistan back to stone age, which is why Pakistan is friends with US. Pervez Musharraf`s decision was totally right. India is not the US. India is Pakistan`s only enemy and wants to make Pakistan weak by internal proxy war while also avoiding m-a-destruction of atomi jang. Indians are saying that we gave our land and that is how Pakistan was created, now we Indians want some land back. How long with Pakistan keep getting `bitten` by its enemy India, Pakistanis must unite and face India, the suraakh(snake hole?) has to be ``closed``.

Urstruly is free to correct me, if he has not immediately rushed off to sign up.

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nb. . .

my reading of what mannyd wrote as ``chuhaDaas`` is his approximation of the word ``chooRa`` therefore those who claimed never to hear the word before, and got all up in arms `bout it, perhaps didn`t make the connection right at that time.

the closest i come to knowing what a chooRa is, is those ``class/caste`` of people who are sweepers and toilet cleaners. that is how it was explained to me.

i can`t explain why there are pakistanis on this board who remain silent and don`t object more strenuously to when some of our own countryfolk call any christian, not just me a chooRa, and yet are so quick to be on the pounce when an indian points that out about them. i guess it comes down to, as a friend tells me, not being able to be honest with oneself when showing others the mirror. i don`t know.

don`t know if i`ve answered your question. . . i don`t think much of casteism myself, but casteism to me involves differentiating between skin color and class as well, and some pakistanis would be lying to themselves if they said that they weren`t casteist in that sense.

as for the rest, thank you. :)

arjun
//...is a christian too, me :)....former christian anyways...//

So you mean to say you are NOT the Hindutva Type? You don`t worship the Monkey-God?Hmmm.... interesting - because anybody who whips sanctimonious paki a$$es the way you do is automatically designated as a veritable ``Monkey-God Worshipper``.

COULD SOMEONE DRILL ( IT INTO HINDUS) THAT BHARAT IS NOT AMERICA

Ana,
I have been reading your interacts and log entries over the last few days, and I am really impressed at the way you dealt with certain interactors. Why is it do you think that when someone called you a bathroom cleaner, nobody now on this board objected, but when another person referred to what he had said, the same people came out, guns blazing to criticise casteist Hindus?? Personally, I had never heard the word he used earlier, and I still don`t know what it means.

Vareesh, either you live in a world of your self made perceptions with fictional characters all around you, like a true ``Beautiful Mind``, or you have a knack for irrelevent goosip that turns out what you want to know. Both ways you are extremely intelligent.

To put facts right, the first Gaurd was not presented by 10 Baloch, neither was it in East Pakstan in 1971. In 1971, it was assigned the Gaurd of Honour duties in Islamabad, and thats the closest you come.

By the way I also read your unplugged on 24 Punjab. What fantasy are you trying to create.

I tend to agree with urstruly et al and it dazzles me why so many Indians behave like this. Come on have a heart.

Cheerios

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arjun #288

i am a christian who cleans my own bathroom in amreeka, and doesn`t have a problem with doing so. :)

the issue with me has never been one of that there are more than a few christians in pakistan who do clean bathrooms. and that`s where, according to some supposedly broad-minded intelligent pakistanis, most christians come from -- the ``caste of bathroom cleaners.`` the issue has been one of certain muslims maligning and misrepresenting the population of christians in pakistan. these people who claim to know so much about us, when they cannot even be honest about themselves. christians who converted in what is now pakistan were from all walks of life from the very rich to the very poor and points inbetween. and a large number were the poorest of the poor, but these are certainly not all of them.

the same pretty much can be said of those who converted to islam. so what exactly is the problem here? what do these muslims get out of making it sound as if christians should be ashamed because goodness gracious, many of them are bathroom cleaners?!!! cheap thrills?!

as for showing some kind of sensitivity, have no fear, that will not be expected of you!

arjun-m
If you are really a decent person, no amount of provocation can change it...

Truer words were never spoken. Those who`d base their opinion on a very large group based on some anonymous posters on a website were simply looking for an excuse to hate any way.
The nicest human being I have had the privilege of getting to know personally happens to be a pakistani. No urstrulys or tahmeds are going to change that fact for me.
The characters here represent a particular line of thinking at the most. They do not represent an entire people.

Dost Mitter and Amit: I agree with botth of you about politeness and respect for the otherpoint of view. I find that missing in a very large percentage of Pakis. There are always exceptions, but they become targets of mob hysteria because they do not quite come up to the mob`s standard of venom and verbal violence against HIndus and Indians. There are examples galore of shutting and shouting down even Muslim Pakistanis (Hamidm, Naqashbandi, Firangikush) because they differ in their presentation of Islam and may not be palatable to the outsiders.
Tahmed32 is the prime leader in shutting down all dissent that does not conform to his ideas of decency, politics or religion. There are others.
I do not know if it stems from their religion or nationality, but we Indians are doing a very valuable service to the Pakis to learn that there are different opinions and religions than theirs and they better learn to grin and bear the differences.

Now Tahmed can stop using words like `MOnkey God Modi`, `Murderer Modi`, `Rapists of 12 year old girls Modi` or come up with a coherent reason why the same type of appellates could not be applied to Jinnah.

`I stand exposed on chowk as a low life`. I hope that is a better reward than CREIP and I had my heart set on getting one. Oh by the way the rape of `Sains` did happen at least once in Pakistan and was described to me by the rapists themselves with pride forty years ago in Berkeley. Could be an isolated incident, but I doubt that. As far as religion is considered, I prefer `untouchability` over `Plough what your left hand possesses`. Personally I would not touch the holiest Brahmin, if he is sneezing and has a runny nose. Tahmed is untoucable too becuase he is always pulling his fingers 0ut of his body cavities.

Who said the following on anpother thread:

``One of my Pakistani friends told me about this incident. His friend, a Pakistani guy, had married an African-American girl in New York. She was well educated, had a good job and had converted to Islam to marry him. He actually took her with him to visit Pakistan. When his parents met her, their first reaction was - ``Yeh, kis bhangi ko utha ke le aaye!! (Which sweeper did you pick up here)``. This is our desi mindset!! So it is kind of hypocritical to complain that others are racist.`` WHoever it was, well said.

DM

There you have it - the near unanimous verdict from the Indian side that they reserve the right to whip a wayward paki into shape anywhere, anytime, for any reason. This is their chowkstaff-given rights and they want to excercise it at they see fit. So your attempt to chaperon is totally unacceptable :)

+++

Now on the ``Ram and the Knife`` issue, don`t break TAhmed`s b@lls.....Because this is true - the hinud banias donot play games no more. They are tired of hiding the Knife in the arm-pits. They are very upfront about their hostilities towards Pakis. And understandably Pakis very upset about it.

urstruly: Kindly observe examples in posts below of Spontaneous Combustion that I brought to your attention earlier. I assume your post #283 was designed to trigger such a reaction.

dm #284 The headline certainly does not attribute it to Hamid Gul. I assume urstruly approves of the message in that article (since he has not provided any comments). I was hoping to engage urstruly in a little discussion on this point, but he has chosen instead to perform lab experiments instead as mentioned in the post I just sent to him.

As for who would get kicked out of chowk if their implementation guidelines were enforced - I wont get into a hypothetical debate on that, and all I can say is: let the chips fall where they may. The important thing is that chowk would then not be poisoned by those who (as I said earlier) come here for this express purpose.

Mantolives:

You are a good man and I agree with you on secularism. I did not like it when you called Indian female interactors `Kutiyas` or a Punjabi scholar `_ulla Bhatti` or you failed to discourage Salim from attacking Paki females with vulgar obscenities. I hope you have outgrown that.

Maybe you have to invoke Jinnah`s name to sell the idea of secularism to your country, but do it only because it is common sense and is the right thing to do not because Jinnah said this or that. The interview posted by CoolAl shows Jinnah to talk out of both corners of his mouth. It is also inconsistent with your other dream of seeing secular India break into managable fragments.

Your devotion to Jinnah is touching. As an excercise, find all the defects he and his sister had and write about them. If nothing else, it will show he was human.

Again thanks for the effort you made for the contacts. Other sanctimonious buffons who are worthless than a `KanA Dhela` are still trying to shore up their self esteem