Point of View, 1971 Through Now

216 by monac/Mannyd/Veeresh

Your problem is that you grew up in a society that measures human dignity based on profession and that is the essence of the caste system that you follow. To you a chamaar or chora or Bhangi would always remain that and there nothing in the world that can change that. Precisely the reason that a female political leader in UP insist on being called a chamaar because the society would not accept her in any other manner though she may attain some prominences due to her leadership skills or following amongst the people.
There is no doubt that many chora, chamaar of Hindu origins have converted to Christianity and Islam in India and these conversions are still going on. After many generations many have attained education and have moved into other professions. But you cannot accept the fact that AlephNull or Arjun_m have gotten some education that helped them move beyond the Chora/Bhangi/chamaar profession that Caste based society had stuck on their forefathers’ foreheads. In other words, even though people have converted out of Hindu religion and caste based system, their designation of “Neech Zaat” in your mind has not changed a bit.

It may be a big deal for you but I dated a Christian from Kerala; a Palamottom. Palamottom was a manager in health care industry and her mother was a professor in a Virginia University.
I am sure you would have designated her a Chora /Chamaar/Bhangi because that’s what you think all Christians and Muslims of Indian origins are.


#215 by Gandiv
“So do you believe that your ancestry is living in present day India?”

Have you killed them all already?

Yaseer


Manto #230
Have you considered why after spending his life as the best ambassador of Hindu Muslim unity and passionately struggling for India for 30 years... he took to this demand of a so called separate Muslim state.

If you allow me to use Occam`s razor, than simplest explaination is that he had ego issues with Gandhi. Jinnah`s was doing very well in Congress. Comes 1915 and Gandhi joins Congress. Within 5 years, in October 1920, when Gandhi gets elected President of the Home Rule League. Jinnah resigns from the Home Rule League, saying: ``Your extreme programme has for the moment struck the imagination mostly of the inexperienced youth and the ignorant and the illiterate. All this means disorganisation and chaos``.

Jinnah left congress soon thereafter. By 1928 he was arguing for acceptance of ``genuine demands of muslims as a separate nation``. He left country in 1930, to return in 1934 and take a ``muslim only`` platform.

All his shenanigans between 1920 and 1947 appear to have only one aim. To prove Gandhi incorrect.

Ok.. I am ready. fire now...

The ``Land of the Pure`` is more caste conscious than India. The official
govt forms in the land of the pure routinely ask for a persons religion, sect and jaat.

The even more purer lands of arabia routinely discriminate and have specific
social groups( referred to as tribes - but are the same as jaat in India)

people like urstruly are fundoos` but atleast they speak their minds. People
like Tahmed are dangerous, because of their sophistry.

Yasser:

{``#237 by Mantolives on January 11, 2005 11:52am PT

Veeresh,

I have contacted a retired Brigadier from the Armoured corp who fought in both the 1965 and 1971 wars. Please write to me at yasser.hamdani@gmail.com with the names and addresses.

Please rest assure that I don`t expect you to back up any of your extravagant claims, so if you really do have a list of people you want to find, please forward me and I`ll try and help you the best I can.. Inshallah. ``}

I had always believed that you are guided by such a spirit....

Anil

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``there is a law that says that a woman must produce 4 witnesses to prove a rape,

How in the holly hell they expect 4 people to silently watch the rape, note the time and place and pack back home to appear before court?

This really sounds moronic! ``

Thats not the end of it. The woman will be tried for adultery !!! This is Justice, Mohammed sthyle ....

And if that`s justice then a monkey is a kind of fish!

And the hate-o-colic HP and Tahmed(SBUH), the ``secular online expert``, who quite often offers his expertise for a fee and everytime gets rejected; continues their brave kafir-bashing, choosing to safely ignore the perverts at home.

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tahmed,

Still I am going to give Veeresh a benefit of a doubt... in the naive hope that maybe a gesture like this will ameliorate his negativity towards us.


Veeresh,

I have contacted a retired Brigadier from the Armoured corp who fought in both the 1965 and 1971 wars. Please write to me at yasser.hamdani@gmail.com with the names and addresses.

Please rest assure that I don`t expect you to back up any of your extravagant claims, so if you really do have a list of people you want to find, please forward me and I`ll try and help you the best I can.. Inshallah.

Thank you.

Yasser Latif Hamdani

tahmed,

you are welcome to give up if you wish. i was in no way condoning what mannyd has been saying otherwise i would not have asked him to refrain from using my name.

i don`t like your usage of the term CREIP any more than i like arjun`s constant references to ``pakis`` . . . nor do i agree with what manny says about dalits. but i also read something in what he said that was not insulting to christians. . . i understood the point he was trying to make about his ilk not being the only ones obsessed with caste and class. as for you and your friends berating him about bringing the christians into this. . . how long have you been here not to know that when you point out gross injustices to some of the indians, they will come back with a list of injustices themselves about us. do we keep showing mirrors to people or do we actually look in them ourselves?

gandhiji also said ``an eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind. but who all here in their chips, and prejudices, and whatnot can ``see`` that?

so give up already. as i said before there was a time when i had the utmost respect for you and appreciation for what you had to say. . . there was a time.

Manto

You have been saying that Jinnah had no ill feeling towards non-muslims. He wanted them to be equally represented in Pakistan. That point may well be true. I have read that Jinnah was a pork eating liberal person before he became quaid-e-azam. More western in thought. But my replies are not for his personal views but about his creation. If you are saying that Pakistan became something that Jinnah never planned for then you can easily conclude that he was taken for a jolly good ride. As a leader he should have known his people, the people should have followed him, even after his death as Gandhians still do. Your posts just reflect that Jinnah has failed as a founder of Pakistan. His vision of pakistan never blossomed.
Comparing the flags, there was no party to challenge Congress in india even post Nehru. Hence INC flag could have been used as the national one although the spinning wheel was replaced by Ashoka Chakra. But still the flag didn`t represent anything particular community. If Jinnah was a leader of higher calibre he would have made the people of Pakistan accept a flag neutral to all communities. Regarding the crescent, whatever it origins it is regarded as a symbol of Islam. Most of the Islamic countries have it to denote the religion of the country. Even Malaysia has it, I don`t think they think they are turk.
Regarding Partition, I am fine with it. I have realised it is better to keep hindus and muslims separate. Personally I would barter Srinagar for the indian muslims.

````What about the muslims who would be left behind in india for some reasons?``

The Lahore Resolution did not envisage an exchange of populations. Instead it sought to make it binding on all states to protect the rights of minorities. ``
Thats not what I know. I could well be wrong. I read that Jinnah was of teh opinion to exchange populaitons as was done between teh Greeks and Turks.

So, I think Jinnah and the leaders of pakistan should have made a provision to let any muslim from india wanting to immigrate to pak anytime could do so as it was created for that reason.

In a nutshell, Jinnah may have good intentions but it hardly matters in the long run since most of his visions and wishes were crushed by his own people. He should have known what he was dealing with. So even if a leader of the masses like Jinnah could not bring a change in the minds of the people of Pakistan, I don`t think anyone could ever do so.

#230 by Manto,

Have you considered why after spending his life as the best ambassador of Hindu Muslim unity and passionately struggling for India for 30 years... he took to this demand of a so called separate Muslim state.

All he wanted was to be the first PM. He left Congress when he realized that he couldn`t make it against the popular will.

British played with his bigotry to make sure the rise of new India wouldn`t threaten the west, and that`s what has been happening; i.e. the cats are always busy fighting each other.

And can you comprehend the difference between a Muslim Majority state opposed to an Islamic theocratic state...

Is there any Muslim majority state which is not Islamic? Being Islamic, sets clear disticntion between muslim and non-muslim citizens. Can it be any more bigoted than this?

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mantolives #211 So monac is veeresh!! ha! ha! This man is a magician - he can turn suzukis into indian-made marutis; and even change himself from Veeru Baba to Monac the Barbarian. Now why would he do this?? hmmmmmm......I give up. Who are we ordinary mortals to try and understand such matters that only God and Brother Veeresh know (and even God is a little confused Himself by Veeru`s shenanigans). ha! ha!

netizen...

That is going back to square one... And when did Jinnah proclaim Pakistan an Islamic Republic... he did not. That came much later. You see... most of your objections to Pakistan, Jinnah and the idea come from little knowledge about the struggle, the man and the idea.

Have you considered why after spending his life as the best ambassador of Hindu Muslim unity and passionately struggling for India for 30 years... he took to this demand of a so called separate Muslim state. And can you comprehend the difference between a Muslim Majority state opposed to an Islamic theocratic state...

The answer to the question you ask is in essence more uncomfortable for the Indians than it is for Pakistanis.

But anyway... here is a discussion between friend and myself which will make our position clearer:

http://www.chowk.com/show_forum_topic_post_list.cgi?tid=00017334

http://www.chowk.com/show_forum_topic_post_list.cgi?tid=00017293

Please visit both links...

Sincerely

YLH

ana: at this point I have to throw up my hands and give up - you let mannyd go off with a gentle ``i would appreciate it if you didn`t use me as an example to fire any more volleys his way`` while referring to my ``gharoor and prejudices``.

You have chosen to ignore the crude manner in which this man was referring to christians as latrine cleaners, and referring to marriage with a `christian` woman as if christian women have no self respect and are there for the taking. That is your choice, and I have no problem with that. However, you go too far in referring to my ``gharoor`` in challenging this man`s despicable contentions: if it is gharoor to take note of such a despicable post and to point out the dignity of all honest labor - even latrine cleaning - then I am guilty of that gharoor. Gandhi himself was guilty of that gharoor when he tried to educate these caste-obsessed individuals on the dignity of honest labor. As for prejudice, if it is prejudice to call Modi a murderer and to take note of those who openly defend him on chowk, then I am guilty of that prejudice. You may ignore that if you wish, but you go too far in accusing me of prejudice because I chose not to let Modi`s defenders go unchallenged.