Point of View, 1971 Through Now

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

re:#78 by Romair
I do not know what all this fuss is all about. I read Veeresh`s article and i find nothing obnoxious. Am i missing something here?
So, Veeresh wants help in tracing some POWs in Pak. This is a noble idea.

Some of the posers from Pakis have been clearly offensive and biased. Ursltruly has made an A$$ of himself about this UN business. Romair is incorrigible. Listen to him:
(One or two years ago, Pakistan was the evil shown in Mission Kashmir, Pukar, LOC etc. Now Pakistan is the generally, ``friendly to good`` shown in Veer-Zara.)
What is his point? Perhaps Bollywood sees a huge market in Pak for their kind of movies. After all, you Pakis have been showering them with flowers and prostrating before them whenever they visit Pakistan. So, Bollywood has come to the inevitable conclusion: if there is a good market for B-grade Bollywood movies, Pak is the place. Now, u can`t make a movie that is critical of Pak and hope to sell it there. So, the new bonhomie in the movies. I hope Romair does not take Bollywood movies too seriously. These movies neither reflect the Indian society not seek to mould a public opinion.

Urstruly, who someone in this forum said was an A-hole, goes to prove that he indeed is. Per one of his posts:
(The UN’s attempt to mediate an instrument of surrender does not sanctify the original act of Indian aggression. )
Is that all he sees, Indian agression? What about the rape of Bengalees of East Pak by the Pak army and the consequent refugee influx in India that precipitated Indian action? Let me remind Urstruly that what Paki Army did to East Pak is listed as a genocide even today.
Much of this and many other forums have become plain hatemonging. I am kind of fed up.
Why can`t people for a change be more objective in their criticisms?
Sridhar

Hamidm2:

`` my father, a career military man whose drawing room was always dominated by a huge potrait of jinnah, thundered, `` tum nahin jante kay baniay ke asliyat kiya hai, hum log in kay sath rhay sakay hai``.......... at that time i thought the old man was loco, today, idon`t know ........... ``

Your father was not loco, he could understand Jinnah`s message loud and clear. Like your father, Jinnah had exactly the same feelings of contempt for Hindus. Once he went to Pandit Madan Mohan Malviya`s house in Bombay and felt humiliated by MM`s behaviour. Jinnah also wanted to become an actor at one time. His speech of August 11 on secularism was an award winning performance. It fools some people even today that he was sincere in that speech.

Yasser/111 - I assure you that my next article submitted for chowk shall be titled ``The Divorced Delhi Male`s Ultimate Domestic Airline Food Guide``. Please let me know if you have any special requests. Non-veg food uplifted on domestic flights in India is halal, so that is taken care of.

And good luck with the Shariat Courts. That is what I am saying when you come on strong on my boards, maybe they are reading you, too?

Do you want me to quote about what they have to say about the status in Pakistan of minorities and their rights? Or do you already know the judgements as well as the implementations?

(I am here a Hindu in much-maligned India and can and will say Bismillah and Inshallah and quote from the Koran as easily as I say Ram-Ram or Lord`s Prayer or Gurbani without any fear, can paint any or all religious symbols on my car if I so desire, as a matter of fact most public transport in some cities carry a collage of a sign that represents Hindu / Muslim / Sikh and Christian symbols.)

Can you or any other minorities do so without fear in Pakistan? Tell me, I pay bus fare from Lahore, from the famous chanda box wallah Lahore RS by auto to Niazi or Skyline (not Tata-Daewoo) , can you take 5 Qadianis and Ahmediyas and Hindus and Sikhs with you and walk in front of your Shariat Court in Margala Hills with a simple sign board ``Wish you all a Happy New Year and Basant in the name of the Omnipotent the Most Gracious the Supreme``, if you can, I stand corrected, or otherwise keep quiet, OK?

I also made some preliminaries inquiries in this case. But the trail went dead.

I do not know any detail about these gentlemen.

But one response was ``Pakistan`s official stance is that it holds no POWs. In case some spies or agents are caught, both countries do not declare. They are subsequently exchanged``.

I had thought only fishermen were exchanged.

Anyway, I have suggested to Veeresh that the families should directly email Musharraf and Shaukat. If they are there living, only they can do something about them.

nhk

Romair#108

``I am not sure if it is quite this simple. Behind every Hitler sits, first, a Goebbels.``

Chowk is not Hitler`s Germany. Unlike Goebbels, Veeresh`s statements are being challenged and questioned quite vigorously by those who disagree with him.

Note that I have made no comment on the article itself. I would have preferred Veeresh to stick to the issue and not wander into an area which has turned this worthy cause into the usual mudslinging at chowk.


HP#106

[“but has it occured to you that many Indian and Hindu chowkies might feel similarly about Pakistani chowkies, even if they are probably too polite to say it?”

#99 by sadna

“You and the rest of your lying nautanki tola”]

Is sadna saying that most Pakistanis or Muslims are part of a nautanki, or is she referring only to posters who agree with Urstruly on this thread?
Is calling someone belonging to a nautanki (theatre) in the same category as calling them Creips?
Is she repeating this as a mantra on a daily basis?
Has it become a takiya-kalam for Pakistanis and Muslims by the Indian chowkies in general?


[#86 by friend on January 8, 2005 3:58pm PT
TAhmek`s #various
AHMEK REPLIES:

#81 by ardeshir_haider
Message for TAH-needs-MED,
Bhadue! I can bet you are a stinking, bearded black mochi in coloured lungi and checkered under-shirt, hiding his baldness by wearing a skull-cap and trying to pass it off as religiosity.``]

friend has a tendency to crosss the boundary of decency. But his remark is addressed to an individual and does not categorise Pakistanis or Muslims in general. He and tahmed have a history. Tahmed once made remarks about friend`s mother that were worse than those which get salim and gujjubania routinely kicked out of chowk.


[Dost mittar always has a point!]

I hope so, though may not be always right!


[Tahmed!
Add one more to CREIP and “Genetically superior” category!]

He already did, which is why I responded. Remember, I am one of those Creips he is happy that he no longer has to live with in Pakistan. This is why I said in my post to him ``and when you tell me I am not like them, I feel the same way as when a gora Canadian tells me that I am not like other Indians/Pakistanis``

sadna # 105

Please ask vereesh to verify that.

Mittar saheb #118
Are you sure you are not late for a eye examination? Read it again..

[#86 by friend on January 8, 2005 3:58pm PT
TAhmek`s #various
AHMEK REPLIES:

#81 by ardeshir_haider
Message for TAH-needs-MED,
Bhadue! I can bet you are a stinking, bearded black mochi in coloured lungi and checkered under-shirt, hiding his baldness by wearing a skull-cap and trying to pass it off as religiosity.``]


#81 is by Ardeshir Haider. And puleeese, don`t be another ahmek and try to measure who crosses limits of decency. You conveniently ignore limits of decency measurement when it suites you.
I have a history with Ahmek but I atleast I do not pretend to be a judge.

Message for TAH-needs-MED,

``ardeshir: What is wrong with being a stinking, bald, bearded black mochi wearing a skull cap??``. I knew the mochi part was correct. Only someone born of low parentage can indulge in the kind of bhaduagiri that u routinely do on Chowk and get away with it. Your obscene language, nasty temper and dirty tactics give away a pathetic lowlife suffering from killing inferiority complex.

And idiot, even a Persian cross-dresser is better than a hybrid, stinking, lowlife who is a product of unsure parentage and bad upbringing.

Namakool Ahmed, hukka leke aa!

dost mittar: If I had a dollar for every time I have been called names on chowk, by now I would be ready to buy the Bahamas islands. Personal attacks and namecalling does not bother me since it merely indicates an immature man.

With respect to the substance: From your post it would appear that I dont ever write complimentary things about your countrymen - however, that is not true. When someone from among your countrymen writes something constructive (people like anil, amit, rsridhar), I am the first one to not just agree with them but to compliment them as well. CREIP is a special designation I reserve for those who fit the definition - if you think this is an unfair designation, please say so and I will be glad to substantiate. (and mr. friend, I agree, is not a CREIP since his bile is reserved for me personally and that is fine with me - like I said, namecallers are a dime a dozen on chowk.)

And yes - like hamidm, I too have become convinced after coming to chowk that Pakistan is the best gift that Jinnah could have given to us Pakistanis. The unrelenting hatred for muslims and Pakistanis that so many of your countrymen demonstrate every day on chowk is simply something most Pakistanis dont realize even exists. You may dislike me for saying this, but I dont write those posts about ``pukistan`` and I dont write those posts defending murderers like Modi - your countrymen do that. I realize they dont represent all India - but that does not mean that a significant number of Indians dont share their hatreds. It is therefore only common sense for Pakistanis to be aware of this hatred, and while always seeking to promote better relations, to not ignore the ugly realities either.

Veeresh,
Would you mind explaining to me what all the fuss about airline food is about? I had thought at one point of suggesting to you that you withdraw from this yourself because Pakistanis appear to be so against you. But I realised that some Pakistanis, and many on chowk, are against anyone who does anything that is remotely pro-Indian, even if it is the humane thing to do. So keep at it, please, and from a grateful citizen,thanks for doing something on behalf of us all. Please feel free to take up a collection if your friends do not come through, though I am sure they will.

Veeresh...

Regardless of the issues with Shariat court, and everyone knows I hate the whole idea, your assertion about `enemy aliens` does not follow and you know you lied about the legal source.

Hence my analysis of you in #64

tahmed32#121:

``dost mittar: If I had a dollar for every time I have been called names on chowk, by now I would be ready to buy the Bahamas islands. Personal attacks and namecalling does not bother me since it merely indicates an immature man.``

What names have I called you, sir?


friend:

``And puleeese, don`t be another ahmek and try to measure who crosses limits of decency.``

Have no fears! I am not in the business of passing judgements, unless they cross certain threshold, which is fairly thick in my case. Someone made a reference to a poster and I had to respond. Re. my mistaking you for another poster, sorry. Perhaps, a similar writing style confused me.

Dost Mittar,

“but has it occured to you that many Indian and Hindu chowkies might feel similarly about Pakistani chowkies, even if they are probably too polite to say it?”

I guess it is difficult for you to even grasp what you posted yourself.

My post #106 was just to let you know how “Polite” Indian posters are.

Instead, you indulged in age old Indian practice of pointing fingers and coming up with excuses.
There are always going to be exceptions and the general trend here is for Indian posters to hurl abuse at any thing remotely related to Pakistan- Whether it is calling paki regularly or constantly referring to child molester. You have been carried away yourself in the past so lets leave it at that.
I think the CREIP description aptly describes the RSS brigade on this Site and Tahmed is correct in using it. Creips should always be called CREIPS.

Mentality of somebody like Urstruly is described best in the below article...

---

Mindset of Pakistanis favouring 1971 Genocide

By Abul Kasem

This re-count starts when I was in Thailand in 1973 to do my post graduate studies in Engineering. The Institution was AIT and being an international institution for post graduate study there were students from many parts of the world, though the majority were from the Asian countries. There was sizable number of Bangladeshi as well as Pakistani and Indian students. Bangladesh was just liberated and most of us still had the fresh memories of the holocaust and never expected the Pakistanis to be friendly with us. But to our surprise, we found that most Pakistanis were quite nice a bunch of friendly helpful people. They were extremely curious about what had happened in Bangladesh during that turbulent nine-month period.

Many a time we used to have lengthy chat sessions with them. These Pakistanis were extremely religious. And they used to preach on us on all aspects of the last revelations of God, that is Islam. They used to think that our knowledge of Islam was incomplete, erroneous and filled with Hindu practices. They used to preach on us like a priest gives sermons on the followers. Their devotion to Islam was so strong that they forced the canteen manager to open counter for Muslim students so that they (the Muslims) can eat the food sanctioned by Islam. Naturally, many Bangalees who are religious minded were greatly impressed by their words and practices. But a sinner like me was very skeptical about their words and actions right from the very beginning.

Then came the topic of creation of Bangladesh. Naturally, they sided with the Pak army although they expressed sorrow for the lives lost. When they heard that 3 million people were massacred and that the action of Pak army cannot be dismissed simply as an act of restoration of peace and order they simply laughed. The reason was that they did not believe what had happened to our people in occupied Bangladesh. When we asked them how many Bangalees were killed, they quoted a figure of 3,000 or to that order. They also insisted that those killed were mostly Hindus so we should not bother too much about the massacre. That was to say that the killing of Hindus was all right. We pointed out that the figure of 3 million was not invented by the Government of Bangladesh but the figure was from reliable foreign sources such as AFP, Reuters, Time magazine, etc. We also told them that a Pakistani journalist by the name of Anthony Mascarenhas has written a book titled ‘The Rape of Bangladesh’ where he had quoted a similar figure. The Pakistanis simply dismissed those facts and said that the foreign journalists were bribed by India to write these figures. When we asked them how did they get the figure of 3,000, they said that that figure was released by the military authorities. And how about the 200, 000 rape cases? They were adamant that not a single woman was raped. Such is the power of Pak oligarchy and Pak military to condition peoples’ mind.

Now, the interesting point was that whenever the atrocities of the Pak army were mentioned to them, they were all adamant that we (the Bangalees) are to blame for that. Why? Simply because we were not good Muslims. How? If we were good Muslims, we should not have voted for the Awami League. They told us that the right parties to vote were Pakistan Muslim League or Jamat-i-Islami. It was no secret to guess that most Pakistanis considered us (Bangalees) as non Muslims as almost all of us voted for Awami League. Therefore they opined that the genocide was not really a genocide! It was getting rid of the non-Muslims. After all, they (the non-Muslims) were not really human beings.

Everyone knows that Thailand and especially Bangkok has plenty of seedy joints to have fun and frolic with young women. I shall admit that I went to one of those joints along with a couple of friends of mine. Being a sinner I did not have serious problem with those things. However, one day we got the shock of our lives when we found these Pakistani Islamists sitting comfortably and blithely at the massage parlour and ogling at the scantily dressed amorous Thai sex kittens. Then they saw us. To our surprise, they expressed no shame or they even did not try to hide their faces. They openly welcomed us and shook hands with us as per Islamic style. We were simply stunned and lost for any word. The Pakistanis even told us which girls were good and sexually attractive, etc. etc. They were not ashamed or afraid to admit that they visited those joints quite frequently. Most of them had their favourite girls with whom they had plenty of erotic fun. Those things were unbelievable to me and I thought that I must have been in Mars or another planet or that God has changed his mind on sins and virtues.

After a few weeks, an opportunity came for me to ask one of these Islamists as to what would happen to them since they have committed the sin of zina. They were very surprised at me for this impertinence. He told me that they have committed no sin. What? No sin! My brain must have failed to work! I simply could not hold my breath any longer to listen to what they had to say. He told me that Thais were not Muslims; so having fun with their girls were all right. In fact, he told me that that had been the practice in Islam for centuries. Whenever the Muslims defeated the non-Muslims, they could do whatever they (the Muslims) wanted with the non-Muslims. The Muslims can use the non-Muslim women as sex slaves and please themselves as they wished. A Muslim even had the right to kill the women if he wished. In simple language the non-Muslims were not really human beings. They (the non-Muslims) were inferior even to cattle and animals. Moreover, the Pakistani told me that the Prophet had allowed to have sex if a man is living overseas. I could not believe of what I was hearing! He then quoted me from his memory many verses from Koran and Hadith to support his views. Then I reminded my Pakistani friend that there was quite a small minority of Muslims in Thailand. So, if by accident he had sex with one of the Thai Muslim prostitutes what will befall him. He answered glibly, “No problem.” When I return to Pakistan I shall have a Milad Mehfil and ask for forgiveness. Finally, the Hajj is there for him to receive the forgiveness. But he said that that might not be necessary because he was very sure that none of the girls he had sex with were Muslims.

If a Pakistani reads this re-count he/she may be greatly offended, no doubt about it. Many Pakistanis will defend that the view by one person does not mean any thing. No apology will be sought. Any Pakistani can form whatever opinion he thinks is suitable. It is up to him/her. Let us look at the wider implications of what my Pakistani Islamists had said. Was it an individual’s wrong interpretations of the holy books of Islam? Was it the mindset of a mentally sick person? Do not be fooled by these thoughts. For when we look back, we see that that was the mindset of Pakistani army recruits who unleashed a reign of terror leading into massacring millions of Bangalees. Pakistanis may differ on many matters but when the question of Islamic superiority comes, they are unanimous. This was the work of the Oligarchy, the army and the clerics of Pakistan. These groups have rigidly programmed the vast majority of Pakistanis with the thought that they (the Pakistanis) have the absolute superiority in Islamic matters. And this thinking got a further boost with the detonation of Islamic bomb in 1998. We Bangalees have no problem with their superior thinking. The only trouble is that these dangerous thoughts have cost 3 million dear lives of Bangalees.

So, to put everything in a simple language, the Pakistani army did not kill any human being in Bangladesh. They only cleared the field from pest; just like a farmer spreads insecticide to free his crops from devastation. So, is the case of the Pak army. They simply eliminated the non-Muslims and the not so good Muslims to protect the good Muslims those who would follow them. The question of remorse or guilt feeling does not arise at all. You see, the Pak army did not rape any women. They simply enjoyed the flesh of non-Muslims. Even if there were some excessive force being applied, there is no need to feel guilty about that. The ubiquitous Milad is there; the Hajj is there too to remove even the slightest trace of culpability. A serial killer is a psychologically sick person. He gets pleasure in seeing the suffering of a dying person in his hands. But deep down, the serial killer knows that what he is doing is wrong. He is surely aware of the eventual punishment if he is caught. That is why, most serial killers readily admit their crime and on many occasions regret of their actions when he recovers from his sickness. How about the perpetrators of a genocide? They are perfectly normal. Most of them are really very nice, polite, and soft spoken (like the Islamic Circle of North America’s leader Ashrafuzzaman Khan). But there is one trait that separates them from the rest of us and that is, the uncompromising faith in the supremacy of what they belief and their inability to accept the existence of others if they do not follow them. Any means is justified to advance their belief even if that means the annihilation of an entire race. That is why no Pakistani has ever condemned the genocide of the Bangalees. That is why they will do that again if an opportunity lends itself. Since no crime has been committed, the question of trial of the perpetrators of genocide does not arise at all. Isn’t it so?

This is the mindset of the planners and executioners of Bangladesh genocide

veeresh
The US has apparently advertised in Pakistan announcing a reward of $25 million for Bin Laden. Let us see how soon he is found, I will not bet a paisa on it :).

IMO, in some respects Pakistan is a `behind the iron curtain` country, another being N. Korea. So my comments for whatever they are worth:

1. As long as the Pakistani Army rules, there may be no hope. Civilian governments could be less uptight about these issues of purported Honor & Dignity, but Army rule is likely to be indefinite. As long as Army rules, India is the enemy and so Pakistan is the enemy. What would you expect from an enemy?

2. Unless Pakistani public opinion demands information about probable missing Pakistani POWs in India, the Pakistani government will see it as solely an Indian issue, to which they are unsympathetic. So again, there is no hope. There was no Pakistani outcry about soldiers and their bodies being abandoned/disowned in Kargil, so forget about Pakistani POWs. So forget about Indian POWs.

3. Instead of depending on government-to-government dealings, perhaps unofficial or semi-official Army-to-Army dealings have more hope of bearing fruit. I mean like dealings between Army Welfare or Army Wives type of organisations of each country. There are also Indo-Pak forums of retired Armed Forces officers - one being Pakistan India Peoples Forum for Peace and Democracy to which Retd Admiral Ramdas belongs. Ask them to earn their peacknik reputation :)

4. Perhaps it might be worthwhile to get a list of jails and try to get information one-by-one.

5. Pursuing any information about any Pakistani POWs has to go hand-in-hand, at the very least, on count of humanity. More so if public opinion and public activism is to be the motivator and driving factor for the search of the 54 Indian POWs.