Point of View, 1971 Through Now

Yaseer,
1971 war and POW, how does that get connected to what Jagganath Azad was treated by Jinnah?

Ignore Veeresh Malik. Are you in a position to help Simmi Warraich? So seem to be well connected?

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Thanks for your level headed comments.
Ive never met Veeresh and I dont really understand why people make such virulent attacks on him. I think as a concerned person he`s taken up this cause and we need as many people as we can get so I`m gald he jumped in and is doing whatever he can.
Some people here have questioned the veracity of the assertion that Pakistan has these men. I have had people tell me here as well, even family members say that it is a futile agenda. Pakistan will never give them back even if they had them. So what should we do? Forget about it! After all people die every day. What do a few more matter? However, I say that each person matters.Why don’t we forget about the Gujarat victims, forget Zaheera’s testimony- even if she went back on it what does it matter? The men are dead now could be the argument in that case as well! But no, it does matter. These men were soldiers. They deserved better. When I heard that a man had returned in 1988 and said that he had seen my father in a jail in Pakistan or that Flt Lt Tambay’s uncle, Jayant Jatar had been, on a whim of Gen Tikka Khan, allowed to see his long lost nephew in Pakistan in an undisclosed location in 1989 , you know you cant let it be. These reports maybe questionable but they do raise your hackles. Are they still there, in prison, after all these years, or are they rehabilitated in Pakistan? Even if no more reports had come after 1975, Major Suri’s letter in 1975 is proof enough that they were there. Where did they go then? If as Riaz Khokhar and Gen Musharraf reiterated that they had “combed their prisons” with no signs of them, where did they then disappear?They couldn’t have suddenly changed their names in Prison and disappeared under the noses of the Pakistanis.
Whatever the Pakistan Govt may say, they are the only ones who know where they are and where they went. We have to keep asking till we know. The govts may be the only ones who can answer but they have to be pushed, pressurized in order that future govts may be more answerable. A government that categorically states it has no army personnel and then releases 2 men from the Kargil conflict who were presumed deserters by the Indian side. A government that did not even accept it’s own soldiers back saying that their army was not involved in Kargil even after it was confirmed that the bodies were of Pakistani army regulars. I can write to Gen Musharraf and have already had Dawn and Jung publish open letters to Gen Musharraf but I don’t expect much from him. He is too shrewd a man and a cold one at that. A soldier would have taken his own soldiers’ bodies back and given them that last respect. A true soldier would not keep defence personnel without informing the other country’s govt. A true soldier would have made sure Saurav Kalia’s body was handed back intact and not mutilated and sent backing 1999 and if it were not in his hands then at least aplogised that it were not in his hands and he was sorry. A true soldier would make sincere efforts to trace the men and make sure they are sent home. No General Musharraf is a politician, not a soldier. I don’t expect much from him. As I said the govt is different and people are different. Pakistanis who I have met have sympathized and wondered what they could do. Dawn and Jung have even published letters. That means the media is well and growing in Pakistan. Governments on both sides are the same, it is the people who have to make them accountable, make sure they don’t get away with injustices. My father`s brother believes by the way that our family was Muslim till the 1700s and converted to Sikhism then in Gujranwala. He even says it would have been better if we had remained muslim and stayed back in Pakistan! I dont agree with him though I dont give religion much importance or credence in fact, and I`m not sure what difference it makes - it`s just chance where or in which religion you are born.

friend: I am impressed by your repeated attempts to assure me that I am an ahmek. i am sure you must be right. Just like I am sure I am a dark skinned bald headed mochi as another sage was advising me on this board.

Sorry for not responding earlier to your numerous posts seeking my attention - I was not ignoring you, just that I already know that I am an ahmek (having been advised on numerous occasions) and was waiting to further enlightenment.

dost mittar #139 you write ``I did reread and since the post is addressed to me, the implications were obvious. ``

The implications are nothing more nor less than what I explicitly wrote (namely, that I have been called many things on chowk, and that it does not bother me since it says nothing about me and says volumes about the poster).

In your previous post, you stretched what I wrote to draw a false implication (namely that I am accusing YOU of namecalling!) and to then ``correct`` this irrational interpretation you came up with by saying that is not true that you called me names!!

I think, sir, that you are determined to find hostility in my post to you where none was present.

Joseph Goebbels, was the master propogandist, and the head of the cultural life of the Nazi machinery, for twelve years. He is famous for the quote, ``If you repeat a lie a thousand times it becomes the truth.``

He was, thus, the master enabler for Hitler`s cause. ``He became a relentless Jew-baiter, demonizing the stereotyped figure of the ``International Jewish Financier`` in London and Washington allied with the ``Jew-Bolsheviks`` in Moscow, as the chief enemy of the Third Reich. At the Party Day of Victory in 1933, Goebbels attacked the ``Jewish penetration of the professions`` (law, medicine, property, theatre, etc.), claiming that the foreign Jewish boycott of Germany had provoked Nazi ``counter-measures.``

A, ``lie`` according to the dictionary is, ``Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.`` However, if it is repeated enough by govt. sources, journalists, media, movies etc. it tends to get accepted as the truth, by many people. It can then be used by interested parties to project their agendas.

There are two consequences of spreading lies about the, ``other.`` If the, ``other`` is weak, then it leads to the destruction of the other. This is what has happened in Iraq. The USA, internally, has been harmed. But, Iraq has been devastated. This is what happened to the Jews in Europe. And ironically, what the Jews are doing to Palestinians.

However, what happens if the, ``other`` can defend itself? This is the current situation between India and Pakistan. Pakistan, has now, after a nuclear deterent, reached defensive parity with India, i.e. regardless of what India does or buys, it cannot successfully attack Pakistan. This was demonstrated during the recent pile-up of troops by India, a few years ago. At that time, the demand was to handover Sikh hijackers, who were apparently roaming around in Pakistan. Pakistan did not agree to a single demand, and eventually India pulled back.

If half-truths, non-truths, allegations based on heresay etc. are allowed to become the main format of discourse about the, ``other`` in a country, it leads to domestic frustrations and anger. If a majority of Indians start thinking that Pakistanis are actually terrorists in Kashmir against the Kashmiris, without asking for proof, then it will obviously lead to a desire to attack Pakistan. Much like the US population`s desire to attack Iraq. If a majority start believing that Pakistanis are holding Indian prisoners, for thirty years, without any proof, it will lead to furthur anger.

Infact, already there are, ``Peace Marches`` and movies being made on this subject in India, indicating that it is already accepted as the truth. On this site, it is being compared to the plight of the victims in Gujrat (which actually was backed by 100% proof). This will obviously play into the hands of the hawks in India.

Goebbels will have struck again.

But what will the consequences be, now that India cannot attack Pakistan. What if Pakistanis simply say, give us proof, otherwise don`t waste our time? The anger and frustration will remain, but it will not have an outlet. At least not against Pakistan. It will have to be released against someone else. Who will become the innocent victims of this anger? In my opinion, it will feed into the agenda of the RSS and BJP. And the victims will be the Indian Muslims.

In the long run, any country that forms its opinion about the, ``other`` based on half-truths or non-truths, without accepting neutral int`l organizations as a broker, harms itself internally, far more than harming the, ``other.`` It can only get away with it, if it has complete dominance over the other side, like the USA has over Iraq.

There were far far more Pakistanis Missing in Action in 71, as well as POWs, than Indians. It is a no-contest. But one should be careful before blaming India of torchering them in jails for 30 years, without any proof. Indians should be similarly careful. They should expose the Goebbels amongst them, rather than defending them. The day countries start believing their Goebbels is the day they drift off in the wrong direction..............

There should be a Truth Commission of Int`l organizations that should be allowed to comb all of South Asia to determine who has and is doing what to whom. I have always wondered why so many people, including the author, always oppose that. Is it because it will expose the Goebbels...............

Dost-mittar:

Your views about India`s invasion of East Pakistan being illegal etc. are quite interesting. I have not met too many, if any Indians, on this site, who hold similar views. The general opinion I have run across is that India`s invasion of East Pakistan was legal, while India`s occupation of Kashmir is legal also. Both views obviously being a contradiction - supporting self-determination in one case, while opposing it in another.

Keeping your views on East Pakistan in mind, what are your views on India`s actions/policies in the case of Hyderabad, Junagarh, Sikkim and Goa. I am asking these questions, because your views tend to run contradictory, on many Indian foreign policy related issues, to perhaps over 90% of the Indians on this site.

am sorry have to say this

veeru:

...you are the wrong person boss...by taking easily avoidable pungas you have lost the essential credibility here… (as far as those from the wrong side of the divide are concerned)...you may still succeed in your mission in bringing a much needed closure to the missing persons… but it would be inspite of your efforts on chowk…

khair

for simi’s sake….and for other folks who need a closure of sorts badly...i hope and pray you succeed….

…now

for others who are still interested and can deliver even a little….can we focus back on the closure issue…and please…let us not write about government positions…we are well aware of it...come up with some out-of-the-box approaches that may alleviate the pain and sufferings of those family members who after all these years can`t come to terms with their separation/loss and still seek solace…for god/bhagwan/guru`s sake!

Romair:

I would love to share my views but am somewhat busy these days [consultants , when they have work, do not keep office hours!]. Maybe some other time.

Romair:

I have read your diatribe, and also Veeresh`s incoherence. Let me ask you: Can you live with a Hindu, like Vereesh next door and accept him as a neighbor. I can assure you it all about this simple fact.

Also, do you understand and accept a Hindu thoughts to tolerate them...? I would like to know what is your understanding of Hindu thoughts, and many times you have claimed your anscestors to be Hindu?

I hope you have courage to answer these questions, without religious nonsense and emotions.

Thank you.
Anil

Romair #150


`` There were far far more Pakistanis Missing in Action in 71, as well as POWs, than Indians. It is a no-contest. But one should be careful before blaming India of torchering them in jails for 30 years, without any proof. Indians should be similarly careful. They should expose the Goebbels amongst them, rather than defending them. The day countries start believing their Goebbels is the day they drift off in the wrong direction.............. ``

There is no incentive for India to keep Pakistani POWs. Pakistanis who were bitter about 1971 could have kept Indian POWs. I doubt any of them are alive. What makes you think Pakistani army cares about its soldiers. They disowned several hundred soldiers on the Kargil Hills. Any Pakistani soldier killed by Bengali irregular is probably missing in action. Does the Pakistani army even have a list of soldiers missing in action in 1971 ? The last time I heard all the Pakistani army records were burned in a fire soon after 9-11.

Urstruly #140

`` Every Hindu must keep in mind that India committed an act of naked aggression against Pakistan in 1971 violating not only the International Law under UN Charter but also violating the Tashkent Accord of non-aggression.``

Pakistan declared war on India on December 3rd. Pakistani air force made a futile attempt to destroy Indian air bases. This is a fact, Did the Indian military or government provoke it ? That is something that can be debated.

`` Having said that each Pakistani must examine whether Pakistan should support a country who violates UN Charter and Peace Accords, violates UN Resolutions on Plebiscite in Kashmir, attacks Pakistan the third time by violating Simla Peace Accord and capturing Siachin Glacier; violates every international water treaty and builds illegal dams on every river that comes under this treaty; supports terrorists and separatists in Sindh and Baluchistan – and Pakistanis must ask themselves this question whether we should trust Hindus or not. A nation who is so morally bankrupt should be supported for a permanent seat in UN? Never. Unless Hindu cleans up his act and starts living like a law abiding self-respecting neighbor; stops genocide in Kashmir the only answer to these moral degenerates is Jihad and Jihad alone.``

Whether Pakistan trusts India, like Hindus or not it is not in the interest of Pakistan to fight with the increasingly powerful India. Even the hardcore Islamists in the Pakistani army understand it very well. You have nukes as a hedge to deter an allout Indian attack. Get over your rivalry with India and focus on your internal development.

Romair #151

`` Your views about India`s invasion of East Pakistan being illegal etc. are quite interesting. I have not met too many, if any Indians, on this site, who hold similar views. The general opinion I have run across is that India`s invasion of East Pakistan was legal, while India`s occupation of Kashmir is legal also. Both views obviously being a contradiction - supporting self-determination in one case, while opposing it in another.

Keeping your views on East Pakistan in mind, what are your views on India`s actions/policies in the case of Hyderabad, Junagarh, Sikkim and Goa. I am asking these questions, because your views tend to run contradictory, on many Indian foreign policy related issues, to perhaps over 90% of the Indians on this site. ``

If you want to talk law the Indian invasion of East Pakistan would be illegal. But then is anything in Pakistani political/government life legal ? Are any of the coups by the Pakistani army starting from Ayub to Mushy legal ? Rubberstamp by a pliant judiciary does not count for legality. I am not sure what is the legality of denying the Awami League the right to form the government in 1971.

I am not sure international law would apply to Goa, Hyderabad, Junagarh and Sikkim because they were not independent states in the true sense. They were protectorates or colonies.

mittar saheb
Would you kindly allow me to reply to Field Marshal #151 on your behalf? He is willing to a dialogue and it is a golden opportunity for humanity.

Dear Mr Romair,
What are your views on East Pakistan. Keeping your views on East Pakistan in mind, what are your views on India`s actions/policies in the case of Hyderabad, Junagarh, Sikkim and Goa. And also add what are your views on Baltistan, Gilgit and Kashmir`s area gifted to China. I will take this golden opportunity to also ask your opinion on Tibet.

Your replies will be eagerly awaited.

RE : #150 by Romair

By your earlier comments, it seems that you are or were in Pak Armed Forces. In your previous statements you have tried to make a connection between bollywood movies and the attitude of an average indian towards pak. You have also stated that mass media in india has created a false propaganda against pak. In an earlier column you had similar questions about indian movies, I had replied to that but never got any comment in return. I hope you read it. Movies are made from a commercial point of view. History gets distorted. But it still has some substance of truth. People produce such movies not for propaganda but to make money. And when there is a idea to which people can relate to, it becomes a material for production. Hence during 90`s? you had a movie like Siege where Arabs are shown as terrorists. There was one more where a pak was shown as a supploer of nukes. There are also movies like ``Naam`` where a pak neighbour is shown as a humane person who sells off his wive`s gold to raise money. Also ``Hena`` shows that there are good and bad people on both the sides of border. And who will forget ``Kabuliwallah`` where the person is not a paki but a simple pathan.
I hope you read my reply to your question about why indians are apprehensive about pak. That was in an earlier thread. I suppose that you are a serviceman, hence i would like to ask you a question. Right now the discussion is going on about missing POW`s. Indians insisting that these unfortunate people are still rotting in Pak jails and pak denying it. Indians don`t believe this, not because of mass propaganda but because of the history between the two nations. Just before Kargil war erupted, a small patrol of 6-7 indian soldiers went missing. After 7-10 days the Pak army handed over their dead bodies which were badly mutilated. Saurav Kalia was one of them. His brother described that his head was no more bigger than a mans fist. Pak army said that the bodies must have been eaten by ``wild animals``. Indian gov. protested and wanted the pak army to investigate it and punish those who tortured them. Even Clinton (then President) at that moment said the POW`s should be treated under Geneva convention. I am wondering what you know about this case.

re: #140 by Urstruly

Mr. Ghulam-e-Arab a.k.a. urs-not-so-truly cool down. Your frustation and hatred towards hindus is getting out of control.

``Every Hindu must keep in mind that India committed an act of naked aggression against Pakistan in 1971 violating not only the International Law under UN Charter but also violating the Tashkent Accord of non-aggression. ``

As Indians, we are content with the 1971 result. This was the first time Pakistan was decisively defeated. Can you imagine ISI in full swing on the eastern corridor since 1971.

``Having said that each Pakistani must examine whether Pakistan should support a country ``

Support in what matter?

``who violates UN Charter and Peace Accords, violates UN Resolutions on Plebiscite in Kashmir``
Did Pak fulfill its part by vacating POK? You must have forgotten that Pak was supposed to free its part of Kashmir before the plebiscite could have been held. (it was occupied during 47 invasion). Anyway, no other country even cares about it, even UN. So move on.

``attacks Pakistan the third time by violating Simla Peace Accord and capturing Siachin Glacier``

As if Siachen was a part of Pak? It was just a area not mapped. Indian army went and occupied it before Pak Army could do that.

``violates every international water treaty and builds illegal dams on every river that comes under this treaty; supports terrorists and separatists in Sindh and Baluchistan``

I personally don`t know of RAW`s involvement in separatists movement in Sindh and Baluchistan. May be RAW is involved or not, but the interesting point coming out of your statement is: if this happens in kashmiri then they (the people involved) are freedom fighters but if it is in Sindh/Baluchistan then they are terrorists and separatists. Bravo!!

``Pakistanis must ask themselves this question whether we should trust Hindus or not.``
What if a Pakistani is a hindu/christian/parsis also India is not equat to hindu and hindu is not equal to india (at least till now).

`` A nation who is so morally bankrupt should be supported for a permanent seat in UN? Never.``

So indirectly you mean that Amrika is morally sanguine?

``stops genocide in Kashmir the only answer to these moral degenerates is Jihad and Jihad alone``

Instead of preaching why don`t you practice it.

Go ahead, wrt india just one more bullet will be wasted.