Point of View, 1971 Through Now

Urstruly # 23

`` There were no united nations vehicle manned by indian regulars present in Dacca. India committed an act of naked aggression against a sovereign country. No UN mandate was ever given to anyone to interfere. Hindus have lied so much that they are begining to belive their own lies as truth. And that is what they are feeding to their comming generations. Yours is not the only article I have seen perpetuating this blatant lie. ``

What is so sacred by UN mandates ? There were UN mandates prohibiting help to the Taliban pre Sep-11 and UN mandates forbidding help to Al Qaida/Taliban remnants.

Mr. Malik,

It would have been better if you had gone about your efforts to finding our soldiers without writing about it on chowk. People who have tenaciously kept Indian soldiers from being freed will no doubt use all their powers to keep them incarcerated in the future when they hear or read about this. What is the point of publicizing your efforts on a forum like chowk where most of the people are nationalists who cannot see beyond the evils of their respective countries?

Veeresh

It becomes a little hard to tell lies and get away with it now with our old faithful google. The following website is of the United Nations Military Observer Group in India and Pakistan (UNGIMP). Their office is not located on LOC, it is located in Rawalpindi. According to them there are 44 military observers belonging to Belgium, Chile, Croatia, Denmark, Finland, Italy, Republic of Korea, Sweden, and Uruguay; they are supported by 23 international civilian personnel and 45 local civilian staff. There are no Pakistan Army regulars as you perpetrate. Logically, it fails the purpose of having neutral observers, doesn`t it. I even have dubious honor of visiting their premises, since one of my cousins was employed as an interpreter for them. And by the way when you go to deliver your letter to Justice Bhagwan Das in supreme court, visit these peacekeepres too. They are located just across the creek that flows next to the Supreme Court building.


http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unmogip/facts.html

By the way UN observers were never posted in East Pakistan for any reason whatsoever - not before, during or after the war of 1971. It is ok, to err is hindu and to accept ones err is human.

I am actually quite amazed that Yasser and urstruly have taken issue on the UN observors bit wrt Dacca/1971, but have not caught the Jinnah in 1947 vis-a-vis minorities implications.

To anybody upset about UN observors in Pakistan (or India, for that matter), please be aware that they have been a fact of life since 1948. And whenever you spot a UNMOGIP vehicle in either country, then the professional driver is bound to be an Armed Forces driver from the host country ``on deputation``, wearing a bue beret.

It is a different fact that in India UNMOGIP locations are not out of bounds for Indians. The simple fact that the Pakistani interaction on this website is not even aware of UNMOGIP existence leads me to believe that things may be different in Pakistan.

As for the Shariat Court in Pakistan and its role vis-a-vis minorities and non-Muslims, I speak on facts again. Let Yasser just for once back his rhetoric with action?

kabuliwallah/49 - I can understand what you are saying. But playing safe for 33 years now has not achieved anything tangible, has it?

Urstruly/51, yes we know all about ``civilian staff`` in Pakistan on a variety of duties as politicians, civil servants, policemen, cricket board members, diplomats, chairmen of this-and-that and now also as support staff including drivers at UN missions. Way to go, what`s a uniform between friends?

So atleast we now have you agreeing that, yes, there are and were UN forces in India and Pakistan, since 1948. Good, I like the progress you are making. Please inform the chorus standing behind you, hiccuping as you take victory by moving three steps back.

Now next do check with your cousin the interpreter about the actual physical location of the UNMOGIP observers on the LOC today. (Ofcourse I know they have an office in `Pindi-I`Bad, they have one in Delhi too. So?) Next, ask him or them to track records on UN presence in Dacca the days before it ``fell``.

veeresh
People who will not do a simple google search before abusing you on the UN reference, I wonder what do you really expect from them regarding `converted` missing Indians in prisons.

List of UN abbrievations:
http://www.unpi.com/unabbrevs.html
UNROB - UN - Eng. - UN Relief Office in Bangladesh (1971-73)

UNROD - UN - Eng. - UN Relief Operations-Dacca, Bangladesh (1971-73)
--

Another reference to UNROB/UNROD
http://www.reliefweb.int/ocha_ol/programs/unocha/afgrpt/bground.html

``However, the experience in East Pakistan/Bangladesh in 1971/2 which also involved a high level personality (Sir Robert Jackson) and the establishment of a special, field-based Office, the UN Relief Operation, Dacca (UNROD) which became the UN Relief Operation, Bangladesh (UNROB) would certainly have been insightful.`

---

http://www.globalwebpost.com/genocide1971/chaps/kiss_71.htm
Kissinger`s account of Bangladesh war

``On my visit to Islamabad I was preoccupied with my impending journey to Peking. But I had several conversations with President Yahya and Foreign Secretary Sultan Khan. I urged them to put forward a comprehensive proposal to encourage refugees to return home and to deny India a pretext for going to war. I urged Yahya and his associates to go a step farther in the internationalization of relief by admitting the United Nations to supervise its distribution....``

---

Another account of the period:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1984/KRG.htm
[in April-May 71]
At the United Nations, Secretary General U. Thant asked Pakistan to allow United Nations relief agencies to act in East Pakistan while recognizing that the situation was an internal matter of Pakistan. President Yahya firmly refused any outside intervention. 9/ ..``


``...Thus in mid-May Pakistan informed the United Nations of its willingness to accept relief aid if the activity was coordinated by Pakistani officials. Within a week Yahya appealed to the refugees to return and announced he would soon reveal a plan for the orderly transfer of power to the representatives of the people. Refugee reception centres were set up and a general amnesty announced on June 10, 1971. ..``

``..By June, India had become distrustful of United Nations` actions to repatriate refugees. When Pakistan shifted ground to accommodate United Nations` actions, India rejected the proposal for posting United Nations observers on her border. ..``


--
Indian Air Force account of 12 December 1971
http://indianairforce.nic.in/eac/indo_china.htm
``The counter air operations of EAC were interrupted due to operations of UN a/c for evacuation of UN families from 1800 hrs on 12 December 1971 till 1400 hrs on 13 December 1971.``

Veeresh,

I don’ want to get into this and I really would like to help.

Would you please post your minimum terms and post the info about the escrow where money is held so that I can be sure that money is there and put people to work.

People who did not peep about treatment to Dalit Tsunami victims, now want to talk about “converted” Missing persons.

Sara Macdonald in her book “Holy Cow” quoted some of them Indians and I quote:

“We are the best sportsmen in the world and India will continue to be the most intelligent, most scientific, most spiritual and best country in the universe. We are, of course, “genetically” superior to all other races.”

With mindset like that poor Dalits just bring the “genetically” superior race down. They would rather talk about forcible conversion of a few than the killing of couple of thousands Dalits in camps by Indians themselves.

oogle oogle
in presence of google
everyone is naked
shudar or mughal
oogle oogle
:-)

HP, you may have me on ignore, but for the benefit of other people, I can`t let that Sarah Macdonald quote pass. Did you even read the book? She ended up loving India.She got the spirit of the country right, I thought, and she made no bones about the fact that she thought India was much more free than Pakistan.This was a streetside astrologer. He actually got the prediction about Sarah right, that she would have a shaking-up and find faith!Which is odd. But he would have included the Dalits in the genetically superior race, and Muslims too, he was talking about all Indians, and of course he was wrong. However, I don`t see what this has to do with the topic at hand. Simmi doesn`t care if these people were converted, that is not important. She only needs to know whether her father is alive or dead, and if he died, how he died, and I think the country that captured him alive should be able to answer that.
Veeresh, these reactions have me completely shocked. They are heart-breaking.What some people seem to be saying, though except for urstruly, they can`t be honest and say it, is that if Indians went missing, it serves them right, they deserve no better because Indians and Hindus deserve no kindness or even justice.
Where were Dalits killed in their thousands in camps, btw?

#57 unfortunately makes my poem a true gem.

Missed mentioning one more reference to the UN in Dacca in Dec 1971
http://indianairforce.nic.in/eac/indo_china.htm
06 December 1971
``e) Some UN ac were scheduled for landing in Dacca for evacuation UN families. Pakistan was unable to accept UN aircraft due to non-availability of runways. The total number of sorties done by the EAC on first and second day were as follows:-``

Urstruly#6:

Your stance has come as a big surprise to me.

Someitime ago, chowk had removed an article from the front page just a day after it was posted. If I recall correctly, it was virulently anti-indian/hindu. You protested against its removal and I supported you. The chowk staff immediately accepted our requested and reinstated that article and your and mine interacts were removed from the board (the only time the chowk staff has removed any interact of mine).

If articles with real or perceived lies/distortions are to be excluded from chowk, quite a few would have to be eligible for exclusion. On the other hand, people are free to challenge the author about real or perceived lies and give her/him the opportunity to defend or retract her/his statements.


tahmed32:

``Thank God for Pakistan. Otherwise I would have CREIPs for countrymen!!``

So, you think that the ethnic cleansing which led to the eviction of the progentors of ``CREIPS`` was justified. And do you believe that those who converted and stayed back are no longer ``Creips``?

dost mittar #61 I came to chowk with nothing but goodwill towards all, including Indians. I still remain prepared to reciprocate friendship and honest discussion by any Indian on chowk, as you well know. However, my years on chowk have made me realize the depth of the hatred for muslims that exists among too many hindus (in particular) on chowk. On another board, I have seen Indian posters getting offended because I pointed to Modi`s murderous record in Gujerat - they have made it obvious that by ``putting muslims in their place`` in Gujerat, Modi has in fact endeared himself to them by oppressing helpless poor families who happen to be of the wrong religion. I would not have believed that an educated man would have such a mindset until I actually read that!!

Since these are supposedly the educated class of India, I have no reason to assume that they do not represent the average educated person in India. It is for this reason that I have finally understood on chowk why the founders of Pakistan thought it necessary to form a separate country. And glad that we have the military strength in Pakistan to keep the likes of Modi and Advani in their place. That is the price smaller nations surrounding India have to pay to maintain their self-respect.

As for the ethnic cleansing you refer to, as you know it worked both ways. So please try to stay unbiased on such basic facts.

And please try to avoid this demonizing of anyone who converted to Islam that is prevalent among Indian posters. There is no shame to havign given up a caste-ridden society that generates the above-mentioned subhuman mindsets to become a muslim.

With respect to CREIP-hood, this as you know is a very specific term, and is based on evidence that is obvious on chowk that I need not explain further.

Faiths unite amid ruin in India

By Nachammai Raman | Contributor to The Christian Science Monitor

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0103/p10s01-wosc.html


It`s a cliche but everything you hear about India, the opposite is also true.

#57 HP Some more details about the killing of thousands of Dalits in camps please? And what is your source of information?
If these reactions from Pakistanis are representative of what ordinary people in Pakistan think, it makes one wonder whether these people are quite normal.