Reforming Pakistan’s Universities -- II

Mind if I say a word?
The problem actually lies within the fact that education provided in our universities is highly constricted- it is not an overall eductaion; students studying medicine study medicine ONLY, students pursuing a career in engineering study relevant subjects ONLY. Such a set-up does not create educated individuals- it produces career-minded mercenaries. Allow me elaborate- the prospectus of prestigious Brown Univeristy in USA states:
``... [ we encourage] learning beacususe it is intriguing,because it is new,because it is irrelevant, and because it represents the heights the human mind has reached...``
It is for this reason that students studying in American universtites MUST study courses other than their concentration- I personally know an aspiring eletrical engineer who studies English Lierature.
What a far cry from the all too business-like syallbuses taught here!! If only our universites provided liberal education... I belive it would solve everything...

firestarter #47, India started building the IIT system in the `50s not in the `80s. The first IIT came up in Kharagpur in 1950 (yes, that`s right). There are five ``old`` IITs: Kharagpur, Kanpur, Chennai, Powai and Delhi. A recent one has been established in Guwahati (`99 I think) and even more recently, Roorkee University has been incorporated into the IIT system. That makes seven IIT`s; not eight as you have mentioned. I am not aware of any other IIT`s.
Besides IIT`s, India has some very good to decent regional and state level engineering colleges e.g. Trichi, Suratkal, VJTI (Mumbai), Jadavpur (Calcutta) etc. There are some OK private engineering colleges as well.
Overall, I would say each year India graduates around 5000 competent students who can be productive to the economy. Of these, around 2000 have the capability of doing Ph.D. level research but most do not.

The most comprehensive, the most apt sysnopsis of the educational puddle. Dr Hoodbhoy, a rare breed indeed. Wish we had more scholars, as you.

Dear Mr. W Hamid....in my previous post i mentioned the abysmal effort of bringing back the pakistani`s in foreign universities. In UET a very learned Professor is called back from US. I do not want to mention the name but because of the politics in the Electrical Engineering Department he has not been allowed to teach there. Similarly, another professor has also left UET and he has joined FAST. The thing is that the idea of bringing pakistanis is very good and india did the same in 1980`s when it established the IIT`s, but its implementation is altogether wrong. HEC is giving a very high salary to these professors coming from abroad. So, when they want to teach in the university, the old professors with UK PhD`s and who didn`t do any research in their life gets jealous and they start lobbying. Therefore, i think that HEC should make sure that these professors do get to teach and do their respetive research freely.

As far as India is considered, there is no comparison w/ Pakistan. Instead of building hundreds of universities overnight, they established eight model universities the IIT`s. Graduates of IIT`s got jobs in the top companies all over the world. On the contrary, in Pakistan we have made 1 Kanal universities and each university has hired 1 PhD and they advertise on his/her behalf. What can you expect from this. You gave very impressive rankings of pakistani universities.I would like to remind you that Punjab University was once considered among top 20, but now its has lost its mark. If this situation prevails then the situation will get worse. Let`s not only hope for the good future but also work for it

I am personally a big fan of Hoodbhoy for his new thoughts in Islam and his general views about Pakistan but I could not find much agreeable in his articles in which he criticized HEC.
Because of my tight schedule I dont have much time to comment on each and every point he raised but right now I will comment on the following:

``One wishes it could be otherwise. It would be a major breakthrough if
Indian and Iranian teachers could be brought to Pakistan. Indians, in particular, would find it much easier to adapt to local ways and customs than others and also have smaller salary expectations. The huge pool of strong Indian candidates could be used to Pakistan’s advantage - it could pick the best teachers and researchers, and those most likely to make a positive impact on the system. In the present mood of rapprochement, it is hard to think of a more meaningful confidence building measure``.

I was really surprised to read that he could not find any ``quality`` Pakistani teachers teaching in foreign universities and even in the presence of ``Foreign Faculty Hiring Program`` he made his wish about bringing Iranian/Indian and in particular Indians to strengthen Pakistan higher education standard. Probably he was trying to be more ``enlightened`` as has been the case in some elite sections of our society nowadays that in every aspect of life they compare Pakistan with India and portray India and Indians as the superpower, whether its film industry, music, IT, language problems or even culture.

I am in no way against of comparing Pakistan with India in different aspects or praising what India has achieved but we have not. But my point is this that we should not present Pakistan as a complete failure and India as complete success while comparing the two. As in this case, Hoodbhoy has criticized HEC so much that one starts thinking that probably HEC is the main culprit of low standard not only in higher education but in every part of life and if HEC is kept allowed working in Pakistan then God forbid the higher education system will fall to the ground. The problem I guess lies in making the issues generalized.
The example of Hoodbhoy`s generalization is this that ``Pakistan does not have a single ``Real`` university``.

I guess this is somewhat exaggerated and also heartrending that if a person like Hoodbhoy says this. Asia Week had listed GIK at 23rd, NUST at 20th and SZABIST on 32nd ranks in Asian Best Universities of 2000 in the category of Science and technology. I think Asia Week ranks only ``Real`` Universities of Asia not fake universities.

Hoodbhoy also mentioned India like having the world’s best standard of education and wished to have Indian talent in Pakistan so that they can save our education system from drowning. I have no doubt that India has some very good institutes so does Pakistan but again we should not generalize while making our case against someone/thing. It is really sad and it even destroys the credibility of the writer as well.

I personally have lived and worked in Arab Emirates and Saudi Arab (KSA) and have a big circle of Indian friends. I also work for an organization (NGO) which is working in education sector not only in Pakistan but in India also and I have more hands on knowledge of indian education system. Its not uncommon in UAE and KSA that u will hear about the fake degrees of Indian workers, especially from Hyderabad. Even Saudis who need a degree for their promotions, ask Indians or even go to Indian Heyderabad to ``buy`` a university degree. This is especially common in engineering. I asked some of my friends and relatives who live in India to send me info about this business of fake institutions and degrees. I also collected some of the news in this regard which I have presented at the end of my email. I hope members of this group will find it interesting.

I was thinking if God forbid HEC accepts Hoodbhoy`s recommendations of bringing Indian students/teachers to Pakistan then how HEC or Hoodbhoy is going to check or scrutinize the degrees of Indians who even have been successful in getting H-1B visas in USA on their fake degrees (see the news collections below). In KSA people used to say that if you want an engineering degree then go to BAQALA (Arabic of a shop) in Hara (a place in Riyadh) and buy it from there.

Hhodbhoy was also very quick in giving the examples of Jawaharlal Nehru University, and the Indian Institute of Technology, in Delhi and their ``polite`` and ``cultured`` students by saying
``Angry words are exchanged and polemics are issued against the other, but no heads are bashed``.

but he failed to looked at the dismal condition of vast numbers of other institutes of India where basing the heads is regarded as very common.. Some of the examples I have present below under the heading of ``Students Politics in India``. This generalization again shows Hoodbhoy`s selecting some good samples to reinforce his argument and making it universal but forget the opposites.

In the end, I would like to say that Pakistan has some good things as well as bad and unsatisfactory things (like in education) and this phenomenon is universal ``including`` India. But it gives a real pain if someone presents just a gloomy picture of Pakistan and contrary to that portrays India as superpower. Usually journalists used to do it just to earn some money but if our well informed Professor does the same then nobody would have the credibility of what they say or write.

Now see the other part of the picture of ``High`` standard of Indian education and read the following: (keep also in mind the fake degrees issue in Pakistan published in the media recently)

Fake Universities and Degrees in India :

1.Employment consultants take advantage of the well-meaning visa applicants as the latter, mostly unqualified, are funneled into the US by middlemen who help them with fake academic degrees and pad their resumes in order to secure the H-1B visas. These shady recruiters in India take several thousand dollars from the ``unqualified dreamer`` to provide him with some ``hurry-up`` computer training and an H-1B visa.
(Times of India 11 April 2001)
2. Balendu Shekha Tiwari, who claims to be a classmate of Laloo Prasad Yadav from his Patna University days, was arrested for his involvement in fake certificate scam. The police team was in Ranchi, following the arrest of two professors from RN Jhunjhunwala College, who were provided fake PhD and DLit.
Professors Indra Bahadur Singh and SS Naikwadi who were given the DLit and PhD certificates by Tiwari were accompanied by police to Ranchi. According to the police, Tiwari has confessed that he provided fake certificates to the professors.
(Mid Day.com, Dec 30, 2003)
3. Police raided the Institute of Paramedical Studies and Charitable Trust from where tthe fake doctors had obtained the degrees. Having no formal medical qualifications, these suspects had been prescribing allopathic medicines for the last so many years, playing with the lives of innocent people. There are about 40,000 such fake doctors in Delhi.
(The Tribune September 7, 2003)
4. Around 1,000 candidates selected as ETT teachers have been found to possess fake B.Ed degrees. The sources said that the maximum number of fake degrees detected in probe were from the universities and institutions based in Uttar Pradesh, Bihar and Madhya Pradesh. Maximum number of fake degrees were found to be allegedly issued by the Bharatiya Shiksha Parishad and Gandhi Hindi Vidhya Peeth both based in Uttar Pradesh and Maghad University of Madhya Pradesh.
The sources said that certain officials of the Maghad University were also alleged to be involved in the issuing of fake degrees. They used to send fake verifications of the degrees issued with their connivance.
(The Tribune January 18, 2003)
5. The local police today busted a fake degree racket by arresting two women and a kingpin of the gang from an institute running in Mota Singh Market here. A large number of fake degrees were seized from the gang. According to the police, the institute had been supplying degrees for past about two decades
The accused allegedly sold a fake degree for Rs 40,000 to Rs 80,000. They had contacts with officials of more than 20 universities.
(The Tribune October 3, 2003)
6. Recently, seven fake degree cases were found in North Maharashtra University in Jalgaon. ``At that time, a court directed the state government to find out if there were more such cases,`` informs Sawant. ``We asked universities to check, but not much came out of that. But this matter needs immediate attention.``
(Times of India Dec 2004)
7. The medical association demanded immediate action against fake medical colleges selling fake degrees in New Delhi, and a mass public awareness campaign against quacks to be started by the government at the earliest.
(Express India Oct 3, 2003)
8. It just requires a fake certificate to get a job in top public sector undertakings like National Thermal Power Corporation (NTPC), State Trading Corporation (STC), Mahanagar Telephone Nigam Limited (MTNL), Punjab National Bank or Gas Authority of India Ltd (GAIL). Chances are if you get caught by an agency and convicted by court, another company will readily employ you.

GAIL chief manager S B Baruah just got unlucky when he was caught by the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) for submitting a fake certificate in 1992 to GAIL for the job of senior deputy manager in 1992.
Baruah had submitted a fake Chartered Accountant (CA) degree showing that he had passed out from the Institute of Chartered Accountants of India in 1978 and his role number was 9838.
(Mid Day.com Sep 26, 2003)
9. Has anyone realised the damage being done to our human resources by allowing students to be cheated by unscrupulous foreign universities which have opened offshore campuses in India, asks D.S. Cheema.
(The Tribune, May 24, 2003)
The higher education system as reported by Swaminandhan (1994), is suffering from several weaknesses in the form of increase in demand, proliferation of substandard institution, dilution in quality and standard, failure to maintain academic calender, out-dated curriculum, disparities in the quality of education, inadequate resources and lack of adequate support for research, and out-dated management system.
The rapid unplanned flooding of higher education engendering complicated situations is one of the reason for indiscipline among students. Universities and colleges are viewed largely as public parks or political dens where the students emerge as pressure groups.
(Dr. G.Q. Sheikh, Feb 2001)

Students Poilitics in India:

Twenty-two students of Tiptur-based Kalpatharu Institute of Technology have been admitted to various hospitals in the City for treatment of head injuries, which they had suffered during a clash between students from northern and southern states.

Trouble fomented around 9 am on Friday when a group of students barged into the classrooms, dragged about 50 North Indian students out and assaulted them with wickets and iron rods.

The assault was in retaliation to an attack on a South Indian student on November 28. According to Mr G R Vijayaswamy, Principal of the Institute, ``It all started in the hostel mess when one of the students was assaulted for a trivial reason.
(Deccan Herald, Dec 07, 2003)
At least half a dozen students and the officer in charge of the University police station were injured in a clash between the police and students belonging to the AIDSO on the B R A Bihar University campus here.
(Times News Network, Sep 04, 2002)
Activists of the Khalsa College Students Union (KCSU) and the Chandigarh Students Union (CSU) had clashed and the police had to resort to a lathi charge at SGGS Khalsa College, Sector 26.
(Chandigarh Tribune, Sep 10, 2003)
Regards

W Hamid
NC, USA

Let me start by saying that it was a pleasure reading both the articles by Dr. Hoodbhoy. I am a very recent product of this system and that is why I think my opinion merits some weight.

For a country to progress in science and technology, science has to go conjointly with everyday lives of people. It has to impregnate in each aspect of society. I am afraid that is not the case in Pakistan. A society where people feel more comfortable believing that divine intervention (Peers/Jinns/Ghostly Images etc) will help them more than science can never progress. If you talk to Pakistani students (even the ones doing PhDs from very elite universities in US), you will be amazed to hear how much they can go in criticizing scientific process. People have a general antagonism against science, and that is the most disturbing thing. You will often hear people making very slanderous remarks e.g. ``science has often failed and has its limits, it can not provide answers to everything``. I am myself a PhD student, and having said that, it behoves on me to respect the scientific process more than anything.

And then there are people who believe in all sorts of conspiracy theories. Conspiracy theory on free masons, conspiracy theory on evolution, conspiracy theory on zionists, conspiracy theory on indians, you name it and we have it.

Then we have false heros. That is understandable for a country where heros are in short supply. No one is taught about the contributions of Dr. Abdul Salam. People feel more comfortable in mocking his religious beliefs than reading about him. In comparison, even after the nuclear imbroglio, you will still find many ardent supporters of A. Q. Khan.

I believe the most important thing that Dr. Ata and company should do is to make sure that our youth develops a habit of book reading. I feel that is the most important area which no one is talking about. Without this, we will just create a generation of bigots than real philosophers/scientists.

After whatever general Zia has done, infusing rationality in mainstream Pakistani society is going to be very tough.

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/education/education.htm#1

interresting read in dawn...

I read IsaDaudpota`s artciles on HEC, and it is a shame that some of the department heads and vice-chancellors have resorted to sub-standard ph.d.s given out by pakistani affiliates of distance education institutes in england and US. How can people with such dishonesty be responsible for and inspire confidence in higher education ? I am surprised Musharraf can`t find a dozen good honest people to run this setup.

I went through the HEC pakistan website, and after reading hoodboy`s and isadaudpota`s articles, I feel there is an undue focus on ph.d. degrees in pakistan. Why ?? The progression from masters level to ph.d. level should be based on inherent academic interests and not monetary based. While it is OK to give stipend to do your ph.d. students(and it should be based on some qualifying examination), issuing Rs.60000 for every paper pbulished in foriegn journals is not beneficial and will only breed dishonesty. There are enough foriegn journals that are of substandard quality and publishing in those is not useful at all. On the otherhand, the HEC should list out good journals in each field of science, engineering, literature, social sciences, medicine etc. and reward publication in those journals. Also, a post-doctoral experience in a foriegn university/lab should also be rewarded. Research should be encouraged by identifying research areas and funding them. Publications are an outcome of research, and have no value otherwise. Also pakistan should slowly start building civilian national research centers and encourage interaction between them and the universities. And also setup a national center for journals or some thing of that sort so that people have access to world journals atleast in one place.

But even with these, what are the employment avenues available for ph.d.s in pakistan ?? If there is no indstry requirement for these skills and thinking, and if there are not enough universities to hire them, what will happen to these huge number of sub-standard unemployed ph.d.s ?? What is the use of phDs which nobody values ?
Without thinking through these, short term quick-fixes will only aggravate the problems. In almost all cases, universities grow with time and dedication, and it would be wise for pakistan to follow that model.

As an aside, I also went to UGC, India`s website, and saw the pics of Nehru and Dr.Radhakrishnan in the UGC meetings. I think we Indians have been very lucky to have such reupted and honest, dedicated leadership. Otherwise imagine a UGC established under laloo`s leadership ?? Thank god, we are spared.

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Firestarter! may be you are talking about Sabieh Anwar. Sabieh did his PhD (DPhil) from Oxford while doing research on world`s first liquid state computers. And what I know is that he is simple a genius and he proved it throughout his educational/research career topping the boards and getting honors at UET.


I think, it will be better if we can ask our friends to get up and convey our concern to relevant people. Sending letters to HEC chairman and directors, Governor Punjab (wonder if he reads mails), VC (same a governor) and publishing our comments in The News and Dawn may cause concerned people to get up and look into the matter to de-politicize EE@UET.

Dear Charlie, i totally agree with you that we should have a strong Alumni. UET is the only institute that caters the rural as well as the urban population. Unfortunately, politics is going to ruin its repute. When i was in final year i was taught 2 subjects by teachers who are currently doing their MSc. I mean this is not fair the final year should be taught by Professors not by lecturers. Dr. Noor is trying really hard to uplift this institute but i do not think that he can do it all on his own. Recently, an ex-uetian came back from Oxford University. He has done his PhD in Quantum Computing and he wanted to teach one course of Quantum Computing free of cost. But the bully azhar shah and his stupid crew said that we do not want any of this bullshit. How unfortunate can we get, there are people who want to serve pakistan but the dayum! mafia is causing hindrances.

re: another stupid article from our Paki friend
One wonders if any history is taught in Pakistani schools!
Read the following para from an article in a Paki newspaper Opinion section (a reputed one at that) titled: No divine vengeance:
Url: http://www.dawn.com/2005/01/07/op.htm
``Hinduism, which was later introduced in India by Aryans after occupying that country in sixth century B.C., the period when the preachings of Buddha, Zoroaster and Pythagoras, had gained sufficient currency in the Middle East and Central Asia, rests on the dogma of `Awa-Gawan` or endless arrivals and departures of soul, i.e. an interminable cycle of births and rebirths till the attainment of `mukti` or salvation. ``

What is wrong with the above paragraph?
The author is saying that Aryans brought Hinduism to India after Buddhism had already been well established in India. In other words, Buddhism predates Hindusims, forgetting easily that Buddha himself was a Hindu.
This is the kind of nonsense being published in reputed Paki newspapers.

This is from a website:
http://www.buddhanet.net/bud_lt02.htm

(In 623 B.C. on a full-moon day of May,Vasanta-tide, when in India the trees were laden with leaf, flower, and fruit, and man, bird, and beast were in joyous mood, Queen Mahâmâyâ was travelling in state from Kapilavatthu to Devadaha, her parental home, according to the custom of the times, to give birth to her child. But that was not to be, for halfway between the two cities, in the beautiful Lumbini Grove, under the shade of a flowering Sal tree, she brought forth a son.)
So, even the period of birth mentioned in that article is wrong. In the 6th century BC, Buddha was born. His teachings did not spread beyond the shores of India in his own life time but many centuries later.
Anyway, a good newspaper would scrutinise the details and edit out such trash. Perhaps the people of Pak are so biased they do not care to know if Buddhism preceded or succeeded Hindusim. After all, the history there starts with invasion of Md Qasim.
Sridhar

For the benefit of those interested in indian educational system.. there is a detailed collection here
http://iqra-careers.com/
see the career and counseling section. This appears to be inspired by a number of indian muslim educationalists (from hyderabad, india) for the benefit of students. Also, Take a look a their advisory board.. interesting..

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Dear Firestarter! Being a former UETian and coming from Electrical department, I was really shocked to know that Azhar Shah was made the chairman of department. Dr Ashraf Chughtai was much better choice than this idiot. But Azhar Shah approached governor Punjab to be appointed Chairman and God knows how he trapped our Retired Army General Vice Chancellor.

Due to the same politics, Dr Ashraf Iqbal left UET and joined LUMS as chairman of CS department. Dr Jahangir left UET. And Even Dr Shahid Bokhari, only Pakistani researcher to be included in the list highly cited researchers during last 20 years (consult ISI highly Cited website), has been looking a bit disappointed for his efforts. Dr Bokhari left NASA in 1981 and returned to Pakistan sacrificing whole of his career and these dirty politicians entering the campuses are causing hurdles for such dedicated people.
And then hoodbhoy says, we should allow poitics over the campus.

I wish we UETians had a strong Alumni association who could approach higher authorities and ask them to be fair while appoitnting professors on top positions.

Atleast, I am going to forward my concern to HEC chairman on chairman@hec.gov.pk and complaints@hec.gov.pk

re: poor quality of publications from Pak
When one reads an article like the one whose Url is listed below, one understands why education in Pak is languishing.
http://www.paktribune.com/news/index.php?id=66028
In this article, the author is actually arguing that the name India was usurped by India and that muslims of the subcontinent (and by the argument, Pakistan) are the true inheritors of this name!
He makes a lot of contorted arguments to prove his point. I do not know if the author is a Paki or an Indian muslim but the point is: this kind of nonsense gets published. Are the articles ever reviewed for quality and authenticity before being published?
Sridhar

the plight of our education system can be verified by the appointment of the chairman of the Electrical Engineering Department at UET, Lahore. Prof. Azhar H. Shah does not have a PhD degree but ironically is the chairman of the department which has some of the finest PhD in our country. How did he got the Professor status, i really wonder. Secondly, the policy of HEC of bringing back pakistani scholars at high salaries is not effective. A very renowed Dr. has recently joined UET under this policy but due to Prof Azhar Shah and his stupid politics he is not allowing him to join the electrical department. If this condition persists, then just imagine where we will stand after a couple of years.

Atif

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Nazarhayatkhan:

#28 by nazarhayatkhan on January 5, 2005 8:01pm PT

``But the real silver lining is the debate that rages on in the country on almost every fundamental issue. There is an internal energy to stand up to taboos & status quo. This chaos and an unashamed acceptance is good for the system. ``

A leadership that facilitates such debates in a country.... has to be a good and sincere leadearship...which will make the difference. May be Pakistan is finally arriving too.

Anil

``...............we should have a rule that any professor who writes an article on this site, takes the trouble to answer the replies from various interactors. Our universities aren`t going to get any better if its, ``activist professors`` cannot find the time to interact with repliers............. ````

lolz Romair...cat on a hot tin roof...loz

No offense, but I am not sure to how many indian regional universities you are exposed to. Not every one in a country needs to study at the level of MITs. I am not sure if India or for that matter USA can afford that. Apart from what ever research they do, one of the main missions of the top universities is to train the national educational man-power i.e. most importantly manpower to run other univ.s whose graduates far outnumber those from IITs and IIScs, and who are the backbone for the indian industry. It is similar in US too. Most of the faculty in the mid-lvel univ have done their higher education at the tier-1 univ like harvard, standford, MIT, etc. In india, most of the faculty in tier-2 univ have their phds from IISc and IITs, and also some foriegn univ.

The tier-2 regional univ, like univ of bombay, anna, kolkata, hyderabad, banglore RRC etc are not that bad either, and most importantly they stay and help run the system. And also some of the local univ have some surprising niche areas. For example mysore univ has close affiliation with the central food research inst. and the central sericulture inst. And due to the large collaboration of japanese with central sericulture (silk worms) inst, there is some good research going on, and the only place in india where this research is taking place as far as i know. I am sure the geniuses at IITs have better things to do than worry about silk worms.

Also, It`s all a system of top-down percolation. The second level univ will not become better, until the first level univ become even better. Otherwise I do not where you are going to get the high-quality manpower that is needed to run them, and where all the good students are going to come from for these univs. Even in the US, the number of good research univ are about 20-30, and this mainly is because of the good manpower coming into the US as foriegn students. Otherwise even US on it`s own doesn`t have the manpower to run good research at about half its top univ. And for all the broohaha, there is a large section of indian populace that is completely inward looking and unaware of the national scene, and all this software and high tech doesn`t exist for them. i am from a brahmin family from hyderabad with parents and uncles who went to schools and colleges in the 1950s-60s, and until my 12th class, I didn`t even know such a thing as IITs existed. And this was in the late 1980s. Can you imagine what the situation would be in the interior districts and towns. For all those people, You don`t need more IIT standards, what you need there are institutions which will give reasonable education and skills to think rationally to solve life`s problems.

Top univ require three imprtant things, highly qualified tachers, high caliber students, and loads of money. I think if pakistan can develop a couple of top rung univ, and focus more on mid-level regional univ. by tapping into the graduates from top univs that would be a great achievement. But for this, dedication over atleast a decade or two is required.

And can we please stop this cr*p about all the IIT stuff. It would be a shame on the millions of talented and the nameless hardworking billion indians to say that our lives would be worth less without these inst. half of whose grads are anyway mostly settled in the west. Sure these are good places, and they have many really good students and teachers, and they have done some good stuff but there is more to india and our lives than these institutes. Let`s not blow the tops and let`s learn to keep some proportion. Again rsridhar no offence intended in writing this.

mirror to the blind.....!!!!

Hoodbhoy

Agree.

But the real silver lining is the debate that rages on in the country on almost every fundamental issue. There is an internal energy to stand up to taboos & status quo. This chaos and an unashamed acceptance is good for the system.

nhk

re:#22 by ShoreSahib
This article is about the state of University education in Pakistan. Let us just discuss that.
If Pak govt (or shall i say the dictator of Pak) recruits Indians to teach in Pak universities, response (especially from the North) may be good provided the payscale is good. I am not sure if quality of teachers would be as good as in the west. It is my belief (based on personal experience) that critical thinking is lacking among Indian teachers in India.
If pak wants to create good world class universities, it should try and replicate the MIT or the Harvard model. IIT s in India were initially modelled after MIT. Such universities need to be autnonomous ie have their own dedicated cadre of technocrats and bureaucrats who are not on the govt payroll and who do not take orders from the govt (in Pak`s case, it would be the Army brass and the feudals). Such intitutions should also have financial freedom.
India did manage to create some institutions which have excelled because they are autonomous. eg IITs, IIMs, II Science, PGI Chandigarh, AIIMS. Most of the rest are rotting away due to interference by the politicians and bureaucrats.
can Pak create such institutions then? I am not sure i know the answer.
Sridhar

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The author mentioned ``an intense and growing controversy`` in the first paragraph, but never elaborated on what the controversy actually was. Was it just fake degrees, or was there more to it?

Interesting article.

The previous head of the HEC, Dr. Shams Lakha (head of Aga Khan) was on Canadian TV the other day. Seemed like a very competent person. Certainly running a very good university. I met Dr. Ata once in San Jose. Seemed very competent also.

Perhaps as a first step to reforming our education system, we should have a rule that any professor who writes an article on this site, takes the trouble to answer the replies from various interactors. Our universities aren`t going to get any better if its, ``activist professors`` cannot find the time to interact with repliers.............

well once again what a nice topic to read......absoulotly great........you discribed the present situation of pakistani education all over no matter it relates to upper education or just lower level either........(upper level=about post graduation or more and lower level=under graduate)Now i got one thing by your article that you ain`t happy with the present situtaion so no one here niether me.......but now what do you say..........the HEC board should transfer to AGHA KHAN and there shouldn`t be the name of punjab uni as in graduation level or post graduation...........no i will never wish for that neither you nor anyone else here........so what can we do if we don`t want this happen.......we only can ask the GOVT. to choose the best men by test as for any work no matters it relates to any board office,faculty,accountant or even to poen........they should heigher the qualified the staff because they deserve.I don`t vote for punjab uni neither for HEC board because they are the cause to ruin the life of many people i give you some real example which happened with many of my friend in both cases inter level and graduation level......
First one of my friend decided to took the private exams as he couldn`t bear the expenditure of college studies either private or govt..because there is no scholarship for any poor student.They think that we are die to print the currency.........anyway its other topic now come back where i was...........so he just bought the forms and submitted that before month .......But he made some mistakes during filling the forms but loot at the condition of board they didn`t even bother theirself to send any notification and when my friend listened by someone examz are after 2 days and when he went to the board office he was just ruined every corner of that shity place....but he didn`t mind at all because he was willing to get further education so he did all what they said.......and after all stupids formalities when he got rollnumber slip in his hand he was shocked that he wrote of forms for economics paper and it was written civics on it.....and the paper had done 2 days back he made them confess but they said like this........(ab damag na kha or yahan say chalta ban) english translation
don`t be headache get the hell outta here.........and now what he could he do..........nothing alas!
now listen about the punjab uni......He didn`t send the roll number slip of many friends and unfortunately one of my friend was there too.........so he went there and he asked them what hell are you doing you didn`t send me roll number slip and they said after checking his name by slip which he gave to him that you didn`t pay the money for exams.....now you guys see how the hell it can happen?can any pakistani do any work without taking money or anything response nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo........never...........
But still i am in favor of HEC and now its govt. responsibility to change the system,change the people heighered the educated people for the post because they deserve that .........
now one more example i give you...I might be wrong with this but for me i am right.......
I went to take the admission exam for MBA program for punjab uni......and i passed the exams........and my matriculation marks are not bad my inter level number are not bad and same to graduation and do mind it that i did icom from punjab college and bcom aswell........so when i went to check the result i was shocked to see that my name isn`t in for the interview and the person who wasn`t got that good number like i did for any stage nor in inter nor in graduation and neither in admission test but he got the admission because he had the experience for 40 years.Now you guys got to analyze it...............average of pakistani is almost 50 to 55 does this man deserve to get admission or me............
but still i favour for PU and HEC but what can i say except make request to people who have access to govt. please tell them to change all the system

Great article, Hoodbhoy Sahib.
``It is time to decide whether we are serious about education being something more than merely giving out certificates. Do we want to build institutions for creating knowledge and helping students to be informed, critical, active citizens? Or not?``
I totally agree with you. I would also like to point out that as it is right now, most Pakistani students in US universities are averse to the idea of taking classes just for the sake of learning. I remember, when I was an undergraduate at Louisiana State, there was not even a single South Asian student except myself in the Philosophy and Religious Studies Department or South Asian Studies. The only SouthAsian students I saw in any classes were in introductory level Intro to Religion courses and even that to fulfill the General Education Requirements. All the Pakistani International students lived on one side of the campus near the mosque, and all the Indian International students lived on the opposite side of the campus. They never mingled much and each ethnicity stayed within their own group. Sometimes, I felt that these Pakistani and Indian students were leaving the university with BA`s, MA`s and even PhD`s but it seemed that they were still the same people with the same thought processes as they were when they first arrived in America. They had not broadened their mind, eschewed critical thinking. They had their degrees, an a means to an end of finding a job, but had they been educated ?, well that is unknown. I would like input of Chowk members on this issue.
Asim Khan

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The foundations of education, whether Madarsah type or the western convent type, are based on honesty and trust in society. it is not about salaries. Even in US, China, India or europe, the academic gets paid far less than the industry standard. Oh yeah atleast in some part a love for the profession. Exceptions of course are always there. The rest will come gradually on it`s own. Putting money into salaries, when there is no trust, will attract the wrong kind and corrupt the system more.

Although Dr Hoodbhoy is a sincere to the cause but he is too much pessimistic. All is not that dark. Things are gradually improving.

I have strong reservations about Hoodbhoy`s point of view over suitabilty of GRE for sole criterion of selection of PhD students, allowance religious and political activities at university campuses in Pakistan and his tale of corruption at intermediate level as compared to university entrance tests.

I although agree that most important thing needed is to promote performance culture in the universities. and he failed to mention even a single strong point mentioning how this performance culture can be promoted if he suggests us so many ``don`ts``. He should come forward with a solid criteria to assess the performance of a researcher.

I agree with Dr. Hoodbhoy. The problem of universities is not lack of funding. It is lack of sincere people with vision. HEC is experimenting by trying to bring back Pakistani scientists and engineer working abroad by offering them handsome salaries. Feel sorry to say that it will not help at all. LUMS (The prestigious Lahore University of Management Sciences) groomed its faculty of Computer Science with same misconception. Come here and you will find well qualified professionals with PhD degrees from eminent world universities and developed research labs with generous external funding from various unfortunate so called government R&D organizations. But it is no different place than any other government sector university with locally qualified teachers rather it is worse in the sense that here for same output as of public universities they are wasting far more money. Yes it is glamorous; this is absolutely right due to good marketing strategy. The people here with foreign qualifications are even more disinterested in doing research than their counter parts in public sector universities with limited funding. Point is foreign qualification does not change the dishonesty and selfish attitude that is deeply rooted in our blood. Politics, diplomacies and leg pulling is also as common here as any where else. LUMS is conducting special tests to enroll as much HEC scholars as possible just to make more money without enhancing facilities. Even foreigners with good qualification cannot change us without a culture change and this cannot be done with in days. Perhaps what ever Dr. Atta is doing is with good intentions but I will suggest him that this is the time to do some research on actual outcomes of his moves. A research is also needed on attitude of our society. This will definitely help to make focused plans that can bring real change. Thanks! fnahmad@gmail.com

Great article.

1. India and China have made it very clear that they want their unis to rival the US`s ivies.

2. Pakistan has lost many of its citizens due to an economy and culture that wouldnt hire professional women about 30 years ago..i.e. of a prof couple, the husband would get the job, while the wife`s doctorate was useless.

3. Many of those same people became American citizens after Pakistan`s violent treatment of Bangladesh.

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#2 by Urstruly on January 4, 2005 1:26pm PT

`Let us accept the truth of the matter that the status quo in Pakistan cannot be changed without an armed struggle.`

Brother Urstruly,

Can you lay out possible avenues of where this armed struggle can come from? China, India, America probably are not good choices, But what about Afghanistan and Iran? Can we say that as much as this armed struggle comes from the grass roots of our society, it should also have help from abroad. From expatriates maybe? An MQM, Baluchistan rebels, Sindhi jiyala, Punjabi jawaan and Pakhtun warriors alliance? Perhaps a revolution within the army ala Zia? But all of this has to have America`s blessing.. or no?

In your response, also briefly mention why people like us who have access and time for the internet should even bother thinking about Pakistan and its poor people. Should it be God-ordained or just the right thing to do or a just giving back to a country where we were accidentally born.. Especially since we are so safe and sound, tucked far away from the maddening crowds. why should we bother shedding blood in an armed struggle..

And this is how intelligent, smart, no-showoffs, leaders who love their people not because they are western-slaves but because they serve their own people. O baighairtO, if nothing, then you just learn from your neighbors. Bhaand-KanjaRR kind of nangaa-shuhdaa-sharaabi behaviour will not fast-forward you into the company of your enlightened and modern neighbors like Iran and India.

The greatness of madressas: A report from India

Someone pointed out another `talent` among ``educated`` Pakis: Does any country, US UK India--ANY nation, forms polical groups & parties OUTSIDE their homelands? Do they have any identity OTHER than that of the country which issued them the passport. Do American , British, or Canadians [even of Paki-origin] form labour, liberal, republican or democrtic party OUTSIDE the country[Pakistan?]; to ``critique`` ``badmouth`` ``invite foreign-help to fix women, mulla, labour-union, or `education` problems `` back-home``?

How can total ignorants ( read: those from english-mediums fat cats in Pakistan) even think of reform. The very idea that they do not consider themselves disqualified & ignorant is the height & proofof their ignorance..and they think twice about shelling out legal & medical advice; when even lawyers & doctors [ yeah the Harvard types] have to consult imams on shariat matters.

Let me repeat: If you do not have ghairrat, dignity, honour as THE prime & foremost virtue then all the english-french-german stuff your spew out is not worth zilch;on the contrary you are a huge burden on the crumbling spines of our very LEARNED & highly educated but unmissionary-schooled AWAAM.

Ask any totaa-mainaa Paki about the progress he has made in his being a paRRhaa likhaa, he would tell you:
1. His job title & perks
2. The salary
3. How many people work ``under`` him
4. Been to `faarin`
5. Is illiterate ( & proudly so) in urdu
6. Knows so & so bigshot
7. Can be mistaken for a `faariner`
8. Elevates himself by deriding religion.
9. Loves `faarin` food. Kids speak english. Know songs by sung by Liverpool Dock rats (Beatles)

etc etc.

So where are all the pakistani academics teaching abroad ? I assume they exist in reasonable numbers. Why cant they do their bit ?

Indian educators could be persuaded but perhaps for short durations initially

Urstruly #2

Pakistan has no choice to go the private route in higher education. It has worked partially in Southern India. As you pointed out the state lacks the resources (or the will to allocate resources to education).

Education needs a good culture to flourish. I am not sure that Pakistan has the political stability for it. Peace with India may be necessary but not sufficient in itself.

So the Lafanga is back with his Harvardish sophistry.

(Has the news not reached him that Harvard & Cambridge have lost their lustre. They are easy sailing for those from madressas)

Until and unless this guy puts 7 years hard labour with the Edhi foundation and returns as as reformed homespun Desi ( meaning having forgotten american ``accent`` and ``slang``) , all his ``scholarship`` is a total drain ( not brain one) upon Pakistan`s resources.

Pakistan can progress a bit , once Hoodbhoy types at least stop interfering. That itself would be a great service to muslims, in particular. These are the ``Doctors`` of the impoverished world who have become experts in organ harvesting and trading and selling them to keep their Masters (the farangis) in robust health. These are the coffin-stealers who want to create societies of body-snatchers so that no fundamentalist & principled Islamic government gets a chance to get nourished & nurtured.

The Hoodbhoy types are incapable of learning anything until it is westinfested are the real jahils of Pakistan. Without madressa education, there Harvardism is like a plastic-plant.

Dr. Hoodbhoy

You speak the truth in ways that very few do in Pakistan. Yours is a clean, quality mirror. Please keep it up in spite of the great resistance you must encounter. The intelligent policy makers in Pakistan are listening to you. You give Pakistan hope. If Pakistan ever finds its place in the world, you will be one of the reasons. Thank God for people like you.

Dr. Doodbhoy,

It is comforting to know that people in your position are not only concerned but actually contributing to the slow and painful progress towards (hopefully) a better future.

A few thoughts/opinions.....

Success of western quality eduction comes out of a combination of state, community, and business support. Sound policies and continuous improvement in systems is a continued effort on the part of the administrations/university boards. Bottomline? You need sincere people at the helm of the affairs. If there is a will there is a way.

An example in very few words: We found out that an Indian professor was working on a project that had business potential. We approached the university board, they welcomed us. The professor, although by law/rules would be a major benefector of revenues, he was more concerned about his phd students and made sure that they were well taken care of. University Board made sure that the professor was happy and legally protected, and at the same time provided us an opportunity to use government fundings to acquire seed capital. Portions of revenues and royalties are to be used for the department`s development. It all happened because people did the right thing and acted objectively and self lessly. The benefactors were, the university, professor, students, and a business.

Last night we watched the Sugar Bowl (American college football finals) between Virginia Tech and Auburn. Another great example how community, business, education, sports, and most of all immense marketing for education is taking place in such a fantastic manner......these are `profitable` ventures in every sense of the word and support the most important thing, education.....

What I mean to say is that established systems are already out there, successfully implemented and getting better. Most important of all, the information is publicly available and accessible and can be used by anyone who is willing to look for it. We do not need to re invent the wheel, we may have to adapt it a little bit. All we need to do is to get our act together and do the one thing that is the most important thing...improve education and make it available for everyone....wishful thinking under the current circumstances......
but there is always hope...

NH

I found this article very useful, profound, informative and thought-provoking. I wish some of Dr. Hoodbhoy`s colleagues and other university teachers in Pakistan read the article and interact. Those who really feel for Pakistan should not be afraid of criticizing the weaknesse where they exist.

I had first hand experience of the kind of teachers that Dr. Hoodbhoy is talking about, at Lahore College of engineering and Technology in my time (1950`s). I have a few interesting and revealing stories about my teachers and their methods of teaching. But this is not the place for me to write about them. May be I`ll write an article about it. The reason I didn`t do it so far was that I hoped that the situation must have improved and my story would be out of tune. The intent is not to ridicule any person but to show the outdated system. Optimistically, I had believed like Faiz, ``Keh abb seht teray (Pakistan) rukh par bikhr gaiee ho gee`` and ``Keh teri maang sitaron sey bhar gaiee ho gee.``

It was easy for us to compare the standards of our local professors with a couple of expatriates who were still completing their contracts. Our German professor of Strength of Materials remarked frequently that in his country those who had not published any original research work were not allowed to teach. I was hoping that things would have changed for better with so many Ph.D`s who are teaching these days but apparently we`re caught in a whirl pool.

The readers should not take this article lightly; it`s a serious diagonosis and the symptoms are bad. Time is running out on us.

Thanks Dr. Hoodbhoy for an eye-opener.

Mohammad Gill

Higher education in Pakistan is in crisis. If you want to help please visit PEP Foundation website: www.pepfoundation.org and join us in our efforts to help Pakistanis help themselves.

labyrinth1,
Why don`t you give a positive spin on Pakistani Universities? You have all opportunities in world to point out descripancies in Dr Hoodbhoy`s report.

You should thank god that you have someone who can still think rationally and identify avenues for improvement.

Dr Hoodbhoy,
Unfortunately Indian educators will not be able to come till we have this atmosphere of mistrust. Muslim educators from India, of which there are many, would be best equipped culturally. But they will be seen with suspicion by Indian Intelligence Agencies. Non-muslim educators will be seen with suspicion by Pakistani Intelligence agencies..



Following is what I wrote in reply to Ahmed Sadozai`s thread..

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#252 by friend on December 18, 2004 10:18am PT
HP #251
Disbelief shown by you and other Pakistani interactors really accentuates the frustrations faced by Sadozai. If appears that he was the only one who knew gap between standard of education offered between Pakistan and elsewhere.
You atleast was gracious enough to admit it. Almost all other interactors from Pakistan, knowingly or unknowingly, found it hard to believe that education system can be any better in any south asian country.
This appears to be one area where normal relationship could have helped Pakistan with a jumpstart. At this time, non-muslim south asian educators wont go to Pakistan because it not seen as secure friendly to no-muslims. Muslim educators, (of which there are plenty in India) would not go to Pakistan because they will be seen by Indian intelligence agencies as sympathetic to Pakistan. I notice that IBA is trying to get ``foreign professors``. You may find many Indian educators who will go for the sake of adventure, thrill or just to earn money - provided Pakistan`s atmosphere is condusive to non-muslim foreigners.

The first note accuses Hoodbhoy of being a perpetual pessimist; the second calls for an armed struggle. Where is the constructive thought in that!!!!!!
Perheps its time that we should all turn into John Galt`s and leave the place alone to implode. Would that be satisfactory to you folks?

Regards.

Education in Pakistan and especially higher education cannot be reformed in Pakistan because the powers that be and the westernized slave minded class have vested intersts in keeping the system corrupt and inefficient. Those who are charged to reform are corrupt and incompetent themselves; how can they reform anything? It is simple as that - the more people will get educated the more people will demand for jobs (i.e. because state controls everything from God to Cricket in Pakistan), social equity, and over all reform. So the current plan is to allow only a certain number of people to get educated so that 3/4th of them could migrate from the country as low level grunt workers to some developed countries who will keep sending back precious foreign exchnge for the haramkhori of faujis and other ruling class.

As if that is not enough we have people like Hoodbhoy who want to end all state control over education and want its absolute privatization - in that case the ruling vultures will have free hand to peck the flesh off general public and since education will become unaffordable to vast majority it eventually will benefit ruling elite to keep the status quo of oppression.

Yes. It is totally hopeless. Let us accept the truth of the matter that the status quo in Pakistan cannot be changed without an armed struggle. There is no shame in admitting that. The current indifference of people to any state of affairs in Pakistan is because of the realization of this morbid truth. Their collective conscience know that once they embark on that path, it will become irreversible; they can imagine the horrible destruction that will prevail for a while before its gets any better. On the other hand, those who have vested interests in keeping the status quo are acutely conscious of this eventuality, and as a pre-emtive measure they have already embarked on the systematic assassinations (actual murders) of potential resistence leadreship already. Corrupting systematically of relatively less radical leadership is another method, which is being employed aggressively. But these tactics can only delay the inevitability.

There are people who always have negative views about everything , Dr.Hoodboy is one of them. Always talking `shi*`