Nazar Khan January 14, 2005
#55 Posted by Romair on January 16, 2005 8:51:31 am
NHK #49: ``No. I do not agree. My pessimism needs to be defined as realism
And your anti-India pre-fixated bias colours your objectivity.``
This is a cheap shot. I never called you anti-Pakistan. Although I could conveniently state that, as well. I always debate your facts on merit and challenge them. You have taken the easy way out and instead of arguing my point and statistics, you have simply declared me, ``anti-something.``
So, if someone does not agree with your declaration that country A is a potential superpwoer, they become anti-country A!!!
I am not anti-India. Just like I don`t think you are anti-Pakistan. I have made more critiques of Pakistan, than of India. Does that make me anti-Pakistan? I have talked about the domination of Punjab. Does that make me anti-Punjabi? And I don`t have an anti-India bias. I back up every statement I make with statistics and surveys. Some of these will seem anti-India, some will seem pro-India. Some will seem pro-Pakistan, some will seem anti-Pakistan. One should not worry about that. One should just make sure the info one is providing is based on fact.
I am pro-fact, and anti-sensationalism. And I found some of your comments to be sensationalist, and highlighted them. You should counter my arguments with your facts, and prove them wrong. Rather than just conveniently declaring me to be, ``anti-India.``
At the same time, I don`t think your pessimism is realism. You need to back up your claims with statistics for it to be considered realism.
1. You had pointed out that India is an, ``up-coming super power.``
I have challenged you on that. Just like I would challenge someone who would say that Pakistan is an up and coming Islamic superpower. I don`t like jingoism that makes statements with no basis -be they anti or pro Pakistan or India.
What are you basing this statement on? If you state that India is an up and coming IT superpower, I would definitely agree. But how are stating that it is an up and coming overall superpower. Do you have any surveys to base your facts on? The only ones I have seen state that India is a potential huge consumer market. That is about it.
2. The second point I have challenged you on is that trade between India and Pakistan will not make any huge economic dents in either country. This is what I am stating. I have given examples of surrounding countries, with which India trades, to justify it.
3. ``India is on a much surer ground than China in the long run.```
Once again, what are you basing this on? Do you have some info to back this up? There are indices that gauge the stability of countries and organizations. Have you used any of those? One good way to judge the stability of a country is to see where the money is flowing. Money always flows to the most stable markets. This is why USA gets so much money flowing into it. Similarly China is getting a lot.
And your anti-India pre-fixated bias colours your objectivity.``
This is a cheap shot. I never called you anti-Pakistan. Although I could conveniently state that, as well. I always debate your facts on merit and challenge them. You have taken the easy way out and instead of arguing my point and statistics, you have simply declared me, ``anti-something.``
So, if someone does not agree with your declaration that country A is a potential superpwoer, they become anti-country A!!!
I am not anti-India. Just like I don`t think you are anti-Pakistan. I have made more critiques of Pakistan, than of India. Does that make me anti-Pakistan? I have talked about the domination of Punjab. Does that make me anti-Punjabi? And I don`t have an anti-India bias. I back up every statement I make with statistics and surveys. Some of these will seem anti-India, some will seem pro-India. Some will seem pro-Pakistan, some will seem anti-Pakistan. One should not worry about that. One should just make sure the info one is providing is based on fact.
I am pro-fact, and anti-sensationalism. And I found some of your comments to be sensationalist, and highlighted them. You should counter my arguments with your facts, and prove them wrong. Rather than just conveniently declaring me to be, ``anti-India.``
At the same time, I don`t think your pessimism is realism. You need to back up your claims with statistics for it to be considered realism.
1. You had pointed out that India is an, ``up-coming super power.``
I have challenged you on that. Just like I would challenge someone who would say that Pakistan is an up and coming Islamic superpower. I don`t like jingoism that makes statements with no basis -be they anti or pro Pakistan or India.
What are you basing this statement on? If you state that India is an up and coming IT superpower, I would definitely agree. But how are stating that it is an up and coming overall superpower. Do you have any surveys to base your facts on? The only ones I have seen state that India is a potential huge consumer market. That is about it.
2. The second point I have challenged you on is that trade between India and Pakistan will not make any huge economic dents in either country. This is what I am stating. I have given examples of surrounding countries, with which India trades, to justify it.
3. ``India is on a much surer ground than China in the long run.```
Once again, what are you basing this on? Do you have some info to back this up? There are indices that gauge the stability of countries and organizations. Have you used any of those? One good way to judge the stability of a country is to see where the money is flowing. Money always flows to the most stable markets. This is why USA gets so much money flowing into it. Similarly China is getting a lot.
#54 Posted by M.B.Z.Isphahani on January 16, 2005 7:04:19 am
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#53 Posted by antihypochrist on January 16, 2005 7:04:19 am
The lack of any kind of dogma has done a great deal of good to the Chinese society in general. Also, did their pragmatism. But I have seen them go great lengths defending everything of their current political setup. It could be doing good to the hundreds of millions of them. But they do not seem to recognize that there are alternatives to just communist party elections. Having said that, subcontinentals have many pages to learn from their book; their hardworking nature, respect for elders, pragmatism, humility, and civility.
Too much of religion, too much of Bollywood, did so much of bad to the youth
Too much of religion, too much of Bollywood, did so much of bad to the youth
#52 Posted by antihypochrist on January 16, 2005 7:04:19 am
Romair #45,
India does not have to be a superpower. It is good enough if it lifts 300 million of its poorest above the $1 per day sustenance levels. Assume that happens in another 70 years. Isn`t it an amazing feat by itself for a democratic (chaotic), impoverished country? India cannot ever coerce another country by pushing it into a corner. What it can do is win the hearts and minds with its culture, popular music and movies (movies are a joke, though). We don`t need to be a superpower. All that we want is the next time an earthquake or a tsunami occurs, our government delivers swiftly. The next time a government does not act swift, we can change it without much bloodshed. All that we want is working relationships with the countries on all our borders. Don`t want any more land. Believe me, some Kashmiri youth recently protested for call centers to be setup in Kashmir. Economics is the key. Religion is good only when you are in the house. More and more Indians are realizing this, and its a good sign.
NHK, we wish Pakistan the best too. And, I am sure it will do well again like in the past once the religious fanaticism in your country is brought under check, and the rulers stop their international ventures.
India does not have to be a superpower. It is good enough if it lifts 300 million of its poorest above the $1 per day sustenance levels. Assume that happens in another 70 years. Isn`t it an amazing feat by itself for a democratic (chaotic), impoverished country? India cannot ever coerce another country by pushing it into a corner. What it can do is win the hearts and minds with its culture, popular music and movies (movies are a joke, though). We don`t need to be a superpower. All that we want is the next time an earthquake or a tsunami occurs, our government delivers swiftly. The next time a government does not act swift, we can change it without much bloodshed. All that we want is working relationships with the countries on all our borders. Don`t want any more land. Believe me, some Kashmiri youth recently protested for call centers to be setup in Kashmir. Economics is the key. Religion is good only when you are in the house. More and more Indians are realizing this, and its a good sign.
NHK, we wish Pakistan the best too. And, I am sure it will do well again like in the past once the religious fanaticism in your country is brought under check, and the rulers stop their international ventures.
#51 Posted by cipram on January 16, 2005 7:04:19 am
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#50 Posted by dost_mittar on January 16, 2005 3:44:07 am
rsridar#34
Very good post!
I was struck by this:
[ ``....Great quantities of plunder were obtained, and the slaughter of the `shaven headed Brahmans`, that is to say the Buddhist monks...]
This shows what I always believed, at that time, Buddhism was a `panth` or a `marg` and buddhist monks were no more than brahmins, and maybe even brahmins by caste.
Buddha won`s people allegiance through sheer force of reasoning, and Adi Sankara won people back also by the same force of reasoning.
There is a modern tendency to equate Buddhism as a movement of the lower castes. It was nothing of the sort. The debates took place mostly among the intellectuals and the followers of Buddha -I wouldn`t call it conversion as we understand the word today- were also mostly brahmins and kshatriyas.
However, the view about buddhism influencing vegetarianism seems more `meaty` to me. There is ample evidence that brahmins and kshatriya ate meat in the pre-buddhist times.
Romair:
By laissez faire, I did not mean that the hindus are not religious, but that they are not particular about how anyone practices or does not practice their religion, although they are more ritualistic [so are the Chinese, btw].
Very good post!
I was struck by this:
[ ``....Great quantities of plunder were obtained, and the slaughter of the `shaven headed Brahmans`, that is to say the Buddhist monks...]
This shows what I always believed, at that time, Buddhism was a `panth` or a `marg` and buddhist monks were no more than brahmins, and maybe even brahmins by caste.
Buddha won`s people allegiance through sheer force of reasoning, and Adi Sankara won people back also by the same force of reasoning.
There is a modern tendency to equate Buddhism as a movement of the lower castes. It was nothing of the sort. The debates took place mostly among the intellectuals and the followers of Buddha -I wouldn`t call it conversion as we understand the word today- were also mostly brahmins and kshatriyas.
However, the view about buddhism influencing vegetarianism seems more `meaty` to me. There is ample evidence that brahmins and kshatriya ate meat in the pre-buddhist times.
Romair:
By laissez faire, I did not mean that the hindus are not religious, but that they are not particular about how anyone practices or does not practice their religion, although they are more ritualistic [so are the Chinese, btw].
#49 Posted by nazarhayatkhan on January 15, 2005 10:12:05 pm
Romair # 45
No. I do not agree. My pessimism needs to be defined as realism.
And your anti-India pre-fixated bias colours your objectivity. India is on a much surer ground than China in the long run. Once the Chinese get prosperous, they are going to ask for civil freedoms. That is when the big test for China is going to come. It may have been bypassing the Glasnost & Perestroika so far - but the day of reckening has to come. Then the outcome is anybody`s gues.
China may handle it well or lose it all - who knows?
A strong civil society is against the grain of the Chinese history & culture.
nhk
#48 Posted by echoboom on January 15, 2005 10:05:49 pm
by
AbdulHAQQ (DTF WONG, China)
Received April 1st, 1997
WHO I AM
My name is AbdulHAQQ (formerly known as D T F Wong). I am of Chinese origin and was born in Brunei Darussalam (which has a predominantly Muslim population). I am 36 years old and male. I left Brunei Darusalam in 1977 to further my education in UK and am now settled in London UK. My education has mainly been at a missionary school (from kindergarten) related to the church and later for nearly 2 years at a Christian independent school in UK before entering College.
WHAT I WAS BEFORE
I was born into a Christian (protestant/anglican) family who were (and still is) actively involved in the Church. In a secular society, one could add that I had also accepted and followed secular laws and customs.I remained a Christian till I was 27.
WHAT I AM NOW
I am now a Muslim - have been for nearly 9 years since I left Christianity.
WHY I CHOSE ISLAM
According to Islam, guidance is of two kinds: a) Guidance of Taufiq i.e. totally from Allah, i.e. Allah opens one`s heart to receive the truth (from disbelief to Belief in Islamic Monotheism). b) Guidance of Irshaad i.e. through preaching by Allah`s Messengers and pious preachers who preach the truth, i.e. Islamic Monotheism.
In my case, the guidance from God is guidance of taufiq. I say this because I was actively seeking the truth and was hardly preached by Muslims.
When I was 23 (and in my last year in college), I became god-conscious in a way I was never really taught in Christianity. I looked out of my window and observed the signs of creation (eg sky, trees, people, etc) and developed a strong belief in the existence of God. I was studying Architecture (in College) and for me - when I look at buildings I know that someone designed and built it. Same with the creation - the alternation of night and day, the bodily functions, etc led me to believe strongly that there was a Creator. Christianity tend to push forward the concept Trinity which many can`t explain and many accept to satisfy their spiritual instinct. I had no problems with Christianity at this point. However this new god-consciousness stayed with me. The way the Trinity was being `pushed to the masses` by the Church as well as Christians left this new god-consciousness a personal experience for me.
I had never studied Islam even though I grew up in a predominantly Muslim country. At that time in Brunei Darussalam, non-Muslims were exempt from Islamic Education. One day I was passing by a Muslim bookshop and decided to enter (without any idea what I was looking for). I came across the Qur`an and decided to buy it. As any Muslim will tell you, the Qur`an instructs (time and time again) all mankind to observe the signs of creation around and affirm their believe in the Creator. This matched with the way that I had developed my new god-consciousness and I decided that there was truth in the Qur`an and Islam. The Qur`an also led me to question the authenticity of the Bible and the Trinity for the first time. I began searching and reading books questioning the authenticity of the Bible and the Trinity. Many Christians answer difficult questions on issues like the trinity with `God can do anything`.
I couldn`t fault Islam and the knowledge I was gaining had a profound impact on me more so than Christianity. I was slowly deciding to switch to Islam. Islam had a simple purity that anyone would appreciate - ie without the complexity of issues such as the Trinity. Islam allowed mankind to have an intellectual conviction on fundamental matters of belief. It didn`t leave the spiritual instinct in man to be satisfied by an emotional conviction such as one would say of idol-worshipping.
The decision to become Muslim was personal. When I told my parents that I had done so, my mother asked two of my uncles (who were in priesthood) to communicate with me - trying to convince me that Christianity was right. They failed and decided that I was not dragged into a cult and that I had made an informed decision - so they left me to continue as a Muslim.
As I continue learning and increasing my knowledge of the deen of Islam my faith in God increased. I became more aware of Christianity`s lack of guidance for mankind. Church services was man-made, Christian festivals/celebrations was man-made, arguments as to whether to accept homosexuality in Christianity or Christians at war, etc. Islam had guidance for relationships between man/woman and God, between man/woman and himself/herself, and man/woman with other men/women. Islam had guidance on issues relating to economics, politics, education, social, legal/penal system, etc. In Islam there is guidance on how God wants us to pray, how to conduct Friday prayers, what and how to celebrate, what is right and wrong, what the penalties for crimes are, how to set up the state, what the state should implement, how the ruler should rule, etc. Islam offered guidance on establishing a society based on divine guidance.
Christianity placed heavy emphasis on faith/beliefs and seemed happy to co-exist in a secular world. Islam had laws and guidance for individuals and society. I believed this to be right - that the Creator would not leave the Created to argue and make laws of their own. The Creator knows best for the Creation. Anyone would follow instructions from the manufacturer to make best use of the manufactured item. Islam is submission to the will of God, our Creator. Muslim is one who submits to the will of God, our Creator. Society will only function well and in peace when we all submit to the will of the Creator.
I could not be a Jew - Jews are a chosen people (descendants of Judah of the tribe of Israel). Christianity I now see as a deviation from the real teachings of Jesus - leading mankind from guidance from God to guidance of man/woman. With a world dominated by man-made laws and the evident injustices in society, the time is ripe a return to laws from the Creator - as Islam offers. I am convinced I made the right choice in becoming Muslim.
AbdulHAQQ
#47 Posted by vivek on January 15, 2005 10:05:49 pm
Romair #45,
``And there is everything to indicate that China is not only up and coming huge superpower.``
Not so fast. Its going to take more than 50 years for China to become a super power. Mere increse in GDP will not make it a superpower. No nation is even close to USA and will not be for a very long time. There`s no room for two superpowers in the present structure of the world.
Also about trade between China and Pakistan, its not likely to grow for a long time either. China`s biggest export are consumer items so why would it import them from Pakistan?
On India-Pakistan trade, I agree that people have too high expectations and its unlikely to materialise.
``And there is everything to indicate that China is not only up and coming huge superpower.``
Not so fast. Its going to take more than 50 years for China to become a super power. Mere increse in GDP will not make it a superpower. No nation is even close to USA and will not be for a very long time. There`s no room for two superpowers in the present structure of the world.
Also about trade between China and Pakistan, its not likely to grow for a long time either. China`s biggest export are consumer items so why would it import them from Pakistan?
On India-Pakistan trade, I agree that people have too high expectations and its unlikely to materialise.
#46 Posted by echoboom on January 15, 2005 10:05:49 pm
Im Chinese names : Ma is short for Muhammad. Hu for Hussain and Ha for Hassan.
The masjid of Saad b Abi Vaquaas is still there in GRAND OPULENCE--a Sahabi of our beloved prophet (pbuh)
he settled in china around 680/690 A.D.
From: PEOPLES`` DAILY..official newspaper of The Peoples Republic of China.
Young Chinese Muslims Enthusiastic about Learning Arabic
Chinese Muslims, particularly younger ones, have displayed growing enthusiasm towards learning Arabic since western China increased its contacts with Arab countries in the development drive to accelerate China`s west.
More than 23,000 Muslims are studying Arabic and general knowledge concerning Islam at China`s 10 leading Islamic institutes and mosques, said Ma Yunfu, vice-president of the Islamic Association of China, adding, ``They are likely successors of Islam.``
In the Ningxia Hui Autonomous Region, home of the largest Muslim community in China, 500 Muslims study at regular universities and 3,000 imams take part in advanced courses run by 3,000 mosques for a good command of Koran and Islamic history. Nearly 5,000 Manla, or young Islamic disciples, began to study Arabic and doctrines of Allahon on their own initiative.
The Ningxia Economic Institute in Yinchuan, the regional capital of Ningxia, has opened four-year and three-year Arabic courses as well as special training classes which enroll a total of 300 students from the Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region and Shandong, Shanxi and Yunnan Provinces each year, said Ma Mingxian, head of the institute.
The Ningxia University set up an Arabic department as from this year. Some private Arabic schools have coming into being, attracting a large crowd of youngsters.
``There is an urgent need to train a huge number of professionals in the fields of trade, foreign affairs, tourism and enterprise management along with increasing economic and trade contacts with Arab countries,`` said An Chunren, dean of the Foreign Language Department under the Ningxia University.
Islam entered into China along the ancient Silk Road during the Tang Dynasty. The total population of the ten Muslim minorities in China now stands at 20 million, mostly in Xinjiang, Ningxia, Gansu, and Qinghai regions and provinces. Muslims are also scattered throughout China`s vast interior areas.
Since China quickened the pace of developing its western region in 1999, these regions and provinces have strengthened economic and trade ties with the Arab countries because they share similar customs and religion.
Ningxia has 1.78 million Muslims, making up one third of its total population. It has expanded its market share in neighboring countries. Its trade volume with the Arab countries registered a year-on-year increase.
Ma Yuren, a 28-year-old trader of Hui ethnic group, said learning to speak Arabic made it convenient for him to export his handicrafts to Arabic countries. The Arabic language will play a bigger role as a result of more trade contracts between Muslims in other countries.
Tian Xiping, a Muslim from Tongxin County, the largest Muslim community in Ningxia, said systematic study of Arabic enables me to have a good command of Islam instructions and religious terms. I plan to advance my study abroad after graduation from the Ningxia Islamic Institute.
Ma Jing, a female student at an Arabic school in Tongxin said, `` I`d like to learn Arabic and expect to become an Arabic translator in future. As an Islamic intellectual, it is a must to study religious theory as well as commanding professional skills,`` she added.
More than 300 students have graduated from her school. Over 20 have been to Sudan, Yemen, Kuwait, Egypt or Saudi Arabia for study or translation.
By the end of last year, some 2,000 Muslims had traveled to Mecca, Islam`s holiest site in Saudi Arabia, to participate in the hajj ritual. Only seven people in Ningxia could afford the pricey trip in 1978, when China began its economic reforms.
In southwest China`s Yunnan Province, the home to 600,000 people of Hui ethnic group, 70 percent of the 800 mosques have opened Arabic schools, serving thousands of students.
Ma Zeqiu, a 16 year old girl in Juming Village, goes to a nearby mosque to attend Arabic classes everyday at 7:30 p.m. She has never missed a single class despite rain and snow.
A scholar of Hui nationality attributed the popular trend of learning Arabic among Chinese Muslims to their ardent love of Arabic. ``More and more young Muslims have cultivated a strong desire to study the Koran through learning Arabic with the implementation of the policy on freedom of region,`` he said.
Ma Mingli, president of the Yunnan Province Islamic Association, said, ``Arabic study among young people will help them have a better understanding of the tenet of Islam and carry forward the fine tradition of Islam.``
Currently, Yunnan has more than 2,000 imams, 70 percent of whom are young men.
The first chinese muslim . Admiral who built chinese navy crossed the oceans and ``discovered`` America long before Columbus.
The Royal Geographic Society FINALLY accepted this two years ago A fascinationg account. Pictures.
The masjid of Saad b Abi Vaquaas is still there in GRAND OPULENCE--a Sahabi of our beloved prophet (pbuh)
he settled in china around 680/690 A.D.
From: PEOPLES`` DAILY..official newspaper of The Peoples Republic of China.
Chinese Muslims, particularly younger ones, have displayed growing enthusiasm towards learning Arabic since western China increased its contacts with Arab countries in the development drive to accelerate China`s west.
More than 23,000 Muslims are studying Arabic and general knowledge concerning Islam at China`s 10 leading Islamic institutes and mosques, said Ma Yunfu, vice-president of the Islamic Association of China, adding, ``They are likely successors of Islam.``
In the Ningxia Hui Autonomous Region, home of the largest Muslim community in China, 500 Muslims study at regular universities and 3,000 imams take part in advanced courses run by 3,000 mosques for a good command of Koran and Islamic history. Nearly 5,000 Manla, or young Islamic disciples, began to study Arabic and doctrines of Allahon on their own initiative.
The Ningxia Economic Institute in Yinchuan, the regional capital of Ningxia, has opened four-year and three-year Arabic courses as well as special training classes which enroll a total of 300 students from the Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region and Shandong, Shanxi and Yunnan Provinces each year, said Ma Mingxian, head of the institute.
The Ningxia University set up an Arabic department as from this year. Some private Arabic schools have coming into being, attracting a large crowd of youngsters.
``There is an urgent need to train a huge number of professionals in the fields of trade, foreign affairs, tourism and enterprise management along with increasing economic and trade contacts with Arab countries,`` said An Chunren, dean of the Foreign Language Department under the Ningxia University.
Islam entered into China along the ancient Silk Road during the Tang Dynasty. The total population of the ten Muslim minorities in China now stands at 20 million, mostly in Xinjiang, Ningxia, Gansu, and Qinghai regions and provinces. Muslims are also scattered throughout China`s vast interior areas.
Since China quickened the pace of developing its western region in 1999, these regions and provinces have strengthened economic and trade ties with the Arab countries because they share similar customs and religion.
Ningxia has 1.78 million Muslims, making up one third of its total population. It has expanded its market share in neighboring countries. Its trade volume with the Arab countries registered a year-on-year increase.
Ma Yuren, a 28-year-old trader of Hui ethnic group, said learning to speak Arabic made it convenient for him to export his handicrafts to Arabic countries. The Arabic language will play a bigger role as a result of more trade contracts between Muslims in other countries.
Tian Xiping, a Muslim from Tongxin County, the largest Muslim community in Ningxia, said systematic study of Arabic enables me to have a good command of Islam instructions and religious terms. I plan to advance my study abroad after graduation from the Ningxia Islamic Institute.
Ma Jing, a female student at an Arabic school in Tongxin said, `` I`d like to learn Arabic and expect to become an Arabic translator in future. As an Islamic intellectual, it is a must to study religious theory as well as commanding professional skills,`` she added.
More than 300 students have graduated from her school. Over 20 have been to Sudan, Yemen, Kuwait, Egypt or Saudi Arabia for study or translation.
By the end of last year, some 2,000 Muslims had traveled to Mecca, Islam`s holiest site in Saudi Arabia, to participate in the hajj ritual. Only seven people in Ningxia could afford the pricey trip in 1978, when China began its economic reforms.
In southwest China`s Yunnan Province, the home to 600,000 people of Hui ethnic group, 70 percent of the 800 mosques have opened Arabic schools, serving thousands of students.
Ma Zeqiu, a 16 year old girl in Juming Village, goes to a nearby mosque to attend Arabic classes everyday at 7:30 p.m. She has never missed a single class despite rain and snow.
A scholar of Hui nationality attributed the popular trend of learning Arabic among Chinese Muslims to their ardent love of Arabic. ``More and more young Muslims have cultivated a strong desire to study the Koran through learning Arabic with the implementation of the policy on freedom of region,`` he said.
Ma Mingli, president of the Yunnan Province Islamic Association, said, ``Arabic study among young people will help them have a better understanding of the tenet of Islam and carry forward the fine tradition of Islam.``
Currently, Yunnan has more than 2,000 imams, 70 percent of whom are young men.
The first chinese muslim . Admiral who built chinese navy crossed the oceans and ``discovered`` America long before Columbus.
The Royal Geographic Society FINALLY accepted this two years ago A fascinationg account. Pictures.
#45 Posted by Romair on January 15, 2005 8:24:20 pm
NHK #44: ``Pakistan was ideally placed as a neighbour to two up-coming super powers. It could not turn this to its advantage.``
To a partial extent you are correct. Though your pessimism about Pakistan continues to overshadow objectivity.
First of all, there is nothing to indicate that India is an up and coming superpower. And there is everything to indicate that China is not only up and coming huge superpower. So one need not get carried away. India is and will be an international superpower, about as much as Pakistan will be an Islamic superpower. Becoming a superpower is no joke. That is why there is only one, right now.
Countries that can barely feed themselves can only become, at best, military local superpowers. If that. India has its hands full, militarily, with Pakistan. I cannot see it reaching China`s range. The gap between India and China is increasing, not decreasing. I think India is hurting itself with its superpower aspirations.
Lack of Pakistan and India trade etc. is a mutual problem. One cannot just blame one side. It takes two to tango. It is both countries` fault. Pakistan and India`s trade should be started. I have been saying that for years, on this site. Before it became a fad. However, my reasons for this are different. It will allow businessmen to get into problem-solving and they are usually very practical. And it will allow Indians to see Pakistan, thereby removing prejudices.
However, I doubt it will do too much for the Pakistan economy (or India`s). India has been trading with Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal etc., for a long time. And they remain as poor as ever. As does India. One cannot build one`s country off exports to another country, which itself is dirt poor (as is the case with Pakistan and India). In addition, 65% of Pakistan`s exports are textile, for which there is no demand in India, since it has its own. And 50+%(??) of India`s import are energy, which Pakistan does not have an excess of. So trade with India, economically, will reduce the prices of smuggled items and things like tea etc. That is about it.
China is a different story. China will become a massive consumer market in a couple of decades. It is right next to Pakistan, and needs Pakistan quite a bit also. I think you are greatly underestimating the work Pakistan has done with China. It is far more than just military related. China is involved in some major projects. And with the Gwadar port, this should increase even more.
However, what is more important than projects is human resource. China will have a shortage of skills soon. And Pakistan should get into that market. I think we should get very deeply into language, cultural, student etc. exchanges with China. Pretty soon Pakistanis will be lining up to go to China on visas, like they go to Dubai and USA. As will Indians. We have an advantage, due to our historical relations with China. Which we should exploit.
So trade with India to make peace. And trade with China to grow economically.............
To a partial extent you are correct. Though your pessimism about Pakistan continues to overshadow objectivity.
First of all, there is nothing to indicate that India is an up and coming superpower. And there is everything to indicate that China is not only up and coming huge superpower. So one need not get carried away. India is and will be an international superpower, about as much as Pakistan will be an Islamic superpower. Becoming a superpower is no joke. That is why there is only one, right now.
Countries that can barely feed themselves can only become, at best, military local superpowers. If that. India has its hands full, militarily, with Pakistan. I cannot see it reaching China`s range. The gap between India and China is increasing, not decreasing. I think India is hurting itself with its superpower aspirations.
Lack of Pakistan and India trade etc. is a mutual problem. One cannot just blame one side. It takes two to tango. It is both countries` fault. Pakistan and India`s trade should be started. I have been saying that for years, on this site. Before it became a fad. However, my reasons for this are different. It will allow businessmen to get into problem-solving and they are usually very practical. And it will allow Indians to see Pakistan, thereby removing prejudices.
However, I doubt it will do too much for the Pakistan economy (or India`s). India has been trading with Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal etc., for a long time. And they remain as poor as ever. As does India. One cannot build one`s country off exports to another country, which itself is dirt poor (as is the case with Pakistan and India). In addition, 65% of Pakistan`s exports are textile, for which there is no demand in India, since it has its own. And 50+%(??) of India`s import are energy, which Pakistan does not have an excess of. So trade with India, economically, will reduce the prices of smuggled items and things like tea etc. That is about it.
China is a different story. China will become a massive consumer market in a couple of decades. It is right next to Pakistan, and needs Pakistan quite a bit also. I think you are greatly underestimating the work Pakistan has done with China. It is far more than just military related. China is involved in some major projects. And with the Gwadar port, this should increase even more.
However, what is more important than projects is human resource. China will have a shortage of skills soon. And Pakistan should get into that market. I think we should get very deeply into language, cultural, student etc. exchanges with China. Pretty soon Pakistanis will be lining up to go to China on visas, like they go to Dubai and USA. As will Indians. We have an advantage, due to our historical relations with China. Which we should exploit.
So trade with India to make peace. And trade with China to grow economically.............
#44 Posted by nazarhayatkhan on January 15, 2005 7:24:11 pm
Romair, Dost-Mitter
About relationships. (Geography & History)
Pakistan was ideally placed as a neighbour to two up-coming super powers. It could not turn this to its advantage.
Geography: Pakistan did not exploit its relationship with China to full potential. Barring some tanks, aircraft or other state level enterprises, it never used the big Chinese technological and educational base for its people. Similarly, it did not fully realize the full trade & commerce oppurtunities with China. (After 56 years, it is now thinking of using its physical geographical location by providing linkages from West & Central Asia to East Asia)
History: With India, Pakistan had the historical & cultural connection. It could not turn that to its advantage - and is not doing. Once again, one is reminded here of the China-Taiwan relationship. They keep cursing each other and have major political differences. But the trade goes on, the people move across. In fact, Taiwan is a big invester in China.
nhk
#43 Posted by vivek on January 15, 2005 5:21:35 pm
singularity #28,
I agree with you on the conversion part. Undoubtably Indians do not convert to Christianity as soon as they land in USA. I suppose the Chinese associate conversion with social acceptance and I have a feeling that when China opens up, there will a significant percentage of people converting to Christianity. That said dont you think that as a society we are painfully poor in our knowledge of our own country.
I agree with you on the conversion part. Undoubtably Indians do not convert to Christianity as soon as they land in USA. I suppose the Chinese associate conversion with social acceptance and I have a feeling that when China opens up, there will a significant percentage of people converting to Christianity. That said dont you think that as a society we are painfully poor in our knowledge of our own country.
#42 Posted by vivek on January 15, 2005 5:21:35 pm
singularity #28,
I agree with you on the conversion part. Undoubtably Indians do not convert to Christianity as soon as they land in USA. I suppose the Chinese associate conversion with social acceptance and I have a feeling that when China opens up, there will a significant percentage of people converting to Christianity. That said dont you think that as a society we are painfully poor in our knowledge of our own country.
I agree with you on the conversion part. Undoubtably Indians do not convert to Christianity as soon as they land in USA. I suppose the Chinese associate conversion with social acceptance and I have a feeling that when China opens up, there will a significant percentage of people converting to Christianity. That said dont you think that as a society we are painfully poor in our knowledge of our own country.
#41 Posted by M.B.Z.Isphahani on January 15, 2005 5:21:08 pm
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#40 Posted by rsridhar on January 15, 2005 5:21:08 pm
re:#19 by kabuliwallah
(Buddhism was systematically wiped out from India through Brahmin-Kshatriya alliance and later through Islamic invasions.)
You are only partially correct there.
It is completely wrong to say that Brahmin-Kshatriya alliance defeated Buddhism. Buddhism was a social reformist movement that sought to uproot the existing evils of caste, rituals etc. It became very popular even among the royalty. Brahmins and buddhist monks jostled for power and favor from the kings. When a king converted to Buddhism, usually his entire subjects did the same. Recall how Buddhism became extremely popular during Ashoka`s times after he himself converted to that religion.
So, saying that this religion fell into disfavor in India due to brahmin-kshatryia nexus is too simplistic.
More likely, it fell to the Islamic onslaught in the North. Arun Shourie here quotes a famous writer: http://shourie.bharatvani.org/articles/scandal.htm
(Describing the massacres of the latter and the destruction of their vihars, universities, places of worship, the author writes, ``The Musalman invaders sacked the Buddhist Universities of Nalanda, Vikramshila, Jagaddala, Odantapuri to name only a few. They raised to the ground Buddhist monasteries with which the country was studded. The monks fled away in thousands to Nepal, Tibet and other places outside India. A very large number were killed outright by the Muslim commanders. How the Buddhist priesthood perished by the sword of the Muslim invaders has been recorded by the Muslim historians themselves. Summarizing the evidence relating to the slaughter of the Buddhist Monks perpetrated by the Musalman General in the course of his invasion of Bihar in 1197 AD, Mr. Vincent Smith says, ``....Great quantities of plunder were obtained, and the slaughter of the `shaven headed Brahmans`, that is to say the Buddhist monks, was so thoroughly completed, that when the victor sought for someone capable of explaining the contents of the books in the libraries of the monasteries, not a living man could be found who was able to read them. `It was discovered,` we are told, `that the whole of that fortress and city was a college, and in the Hindi tongue they call a college Bihar.` ``Such was the slaughter of the Buddhist priesthood perpetrated by the Islamic invaders. The axe was struck at the very root. For by killing the Buddhist priesthood, Islam killed Buddhism. This was the greatest disaster that befell the religion of the Buddha in India....``
The writer? B. R. Ambedkar.)
If one knew how religion worked in those days, one would not use such languages as wiping out or exterminating. In those days, scholars would openly debate and if one lost, he would convert, along with his disciple, to his victor`s religion.
Eg: http://www.san.beck.org/EC9-Buddha.html
(Also living in this region were three Brahmin brothers of the Kashyapa family. They were ascetics with matted hair over the age of seventy and were the most respected religious leaders in Magadha with a total of about one thousand disciples. The Buddha spoke with the oldest, Uruvilva Kashyapa, but it was difficult for him to accept that such a young man could be so holy. Finally the Buddha used his mystic powers, and convinced of the Buddha`s superiority Uruvilva decided to follow him. The Buddha suggested that they ask his five hundred followers what they wanted to do, and they all decided to join as well, shaving their hair and beards and throwing their ceremonial utensils into the river. The two Kashyapa brothers saw the implements in the river and eventually joined as well with their disciples.)
Early canonical works of Buddhism were written by Ashwaghosha and Nagarjuna. Both were brahmins who converted to buddhism.
http://www.san.beck.org/AB2-India.html
(Ashvaghosha was the son of a Brahmin and at first traveled around arguing against Buddhism until he was converted, probably by Parshva. Ashvaghosha wrote the earliest Sanskrit drama still partially extant; in the Shariputra-prakarana the Buddha converts Maudgalyayana and Sariputra by philosophical discussion. His poem Buddhacharita describes the life and teachings of the Buddha very beautifully.)
(Nagarjuna was also born into a Brahmin family and in the 2nd century CE founded the Madhyamika (Middle Path) school of Mahayana Buddhism, although he was concerned about Hinayanists too. He was a stern disciplinarian and expelled many monks from the community at Nalanda for not observing the rules. A division among his followers led to the development of the Yogachara school of philosophy. Nagarjuna taught that all things are empty, but he answered critics that this does not deny reality but explains how the world happens. Only from the absolute point of view is there no birth or annihilation. The Buddha and all beings are like the sky and are of one nature. All things are nothing but mind established as phantoms; thus blissful or evil existence matures according to good or evil actions.)
Why did Buddhism then fail in India? One reason i gave was Islamic onslaught. But then how did Hinduism survive that onslaught while Buddhism fell prey to it?
A thousand years after Buddha founded the religion, Buddhism became a rigid, ritualistic religion, the very concept that was anathema to Buddha. Hinduism fought back by trying to incorporate the buddhist thought process into its own fold. Hindus deemed Buddha as an avataar of Vishnu, which the Buddhists vehemently denied. While Hinduism sought to take Buddhism under its fold, Buddhism, fearing this tendency, went to an elaborate extent to distinguish itself from hinduism (``the Vedic religion). Vast Viharas were built which became exclusive properties of Monks who were being lavished riches by their benefactors. When muslim invaders came, they went after easily identifiable targets. In case of Buddhists, these were monks,monasteries and their scriptures. Utter destruction of Nalanda by muslim invaders has been well documented and i have written about it in the past in Chowk. Once monasteries, books, monks were destroyed, nothing was left for a Buddhist revival.
Hinduism was difficult to destroy. One had to kill every brahmin spread over a large landmass. Brahmin carried the scriptures, holy mantras in his memory (in a long line of succession). Muslim invaders massacred and killed brahmins by thousands but still could not exterminate them. Temples, in comparison, were easier to destroy.
Vedic revival was, in the end, spearheaded from South by one of the greatest spiritual minds world has ever seen: Adi Sankara, travelling around India, reestablished Vedic thoughts and filled the vaccum created by eclipse of Buddhism. He also defeated many Buddhists (who were still there in the mainlands of India) in debates through his new philosophy of Advaita. Thus while Buddhism did not have such revival and slowly withered away, Vedic religion found resurgence under the guidance of Adi Sankara.
Adi Sankara is generally venerated by the common man for the establishment of the four Peethas and creating the lineage of Sankaracharyas. The Advaita philosophy is, by and large, attributed to Adi Sankara. He is also known for his superb commentaries on Brahmasutra (one of the 3 most sacred texts for Hindus, the other 2 being Upanishad and Geeta; goes by the acronymn BUG!).
Ultimately, any religious thought or philosophy survives only if it is endowed with ``Bhakti`` or devotion. Religion can`t survive as a pure intellectual exercise (as shown by eclipse of Buddhism from India) or as a brute force (as Islam is learning of late).
Adi Shankara, in his later years turned towards devotion, writing many devotional songs, most famous of which is Bhaja Govindam (song to perfection by M.S.Subbulakshmi). Survival of Vedic religion in India has much to do with AdiSankara.
Sridhar
(Buddhism was systematically wiped out from India through Brahmin-Kshatriya alliance and later through Islamic invasions.)
You are only partially correct there.
It is completely wrong to say that Brahmin-Kshatriya alliance defeated Buddhism. Buddhism was a social reformist movement that sought to uproot the existing evils of caste, rituals etc. It became very popular even among the royalty. Brahmins and buddhist monks jostled for power and favor from the kings. When a king converted to Buddhism, usually his entire subjects did the same. Recall how Buddhism became extremely popular during Ashoka`s times after he himself converted to that religion.
So, saying that this religion fell into disfavor in India due to brahmin-kshatryia nexus is too simplistic.
More likely, it fell to the Islamic onslaught in the North. Arun Shourie here quotes a famous writer: http://shourie.bharatvani.org/articles/scandal.htm
(Describing the massacres of the latter and the destruction of their vihars, universities, places of worship, the author writes, ``The Musalman invaders sacked the Buddhist Universities of Nalanda, Vikramshila, Jagaddala, Odantapuri to name only a few. They raised to the ground Buddhist monasteries with which the country was studded. The monks fled away in thousands to Nepal, Tibet and other places outside India. A very large number were killed outright by the Muslim commanders. How the Buddhist priesthood perished by the sword of the Muslim invaders has been recorded by the Muslim historians themselves. Summarizing the evidence relating to the slaughter of the Buddhist Monks perpetrated by the Musalman General in the course of his invasion of Bihar in 1197 AD, Mr. Vincent Smith says, ``....Great quantities of plunder were obtained, and the slaughter of the `shaven headed Brahmans`, that is to say the Buddhist monks, was so thoroughly completed, that when the victor sought for someone capable of explaining the contents of the books in the libraries of the monasteries, not a living man could be found who was able to read them. `It was discovered,` we are told, `that the whole of that fortress and city was a college, and in the Hindi tongue they call a college Bihar.` ``Such was the slaughter of the Buddhist priesthood perpetrated by the Islamic invaders. The axe was struck at the very root. For by killing the Buddhist priesthood, Islam killed Buddhism. This was the greatest disaster that befell the religion of the Buddha in India....``
The writer? B. R. Ambedkar.)
If one knew how religion worked in those days, one would not use such languages as wiping out or exterminating. In those days, scholars would openly debate and if one lost, he would convert, along with his disciple, to his victor`s religion.
Eg: http://www.san.beck.org/EC9-Buddha.html
(Also living in this region were three Brahmin brothers of the Kashyapa family. They were ascetics with matted hair over the age of seventy and were the most respected religious leaders in Magadha with a total of about one thousand disciples. The Buddha spoke with the oldest, Uruvilva Kashyapa, but it was difficult for him to accept that such a young man could be so holy. Finally the Buddha used his mystic powers, and convinced of the Buddha`s superiority Uruvilva decided to follow him. The Buddha suggested that they ask his five hundred followers what they wanted to do, and they all decided to join as well, shaving their hair and beards and throwing their ceremonial utensils into the river. The two Kashyapa brothers saw the implements in the river and eventually joined as well with their disciples.)
Early canonical works of Buddhism were written by Ashwaghosha and Nagarjuna. Both were brahmins who converted to buddhism.
http://www.san.beck.org/AB2-India.html
(Ashvaghosha was the son of a Brahmin and at first traveled around arguing against Buddhism until he was converted, probably by Parshva. Ashvaghosha wrote the earliest Sanskrit drama still partially extant; in the Shariputra-prakarana the Buddha converts Maudgalyayana and Sariputra by philosophical discussion. His poem Buddhacharita describes the life and teachings of the Buddha very beautifully.)
(Nagarjuna was also born into a Brahmin family and in the 2nd century CE founded the Madhyamika (Middle Path) school of Mahayana Buddhism, although he was concerned about Hinayanists too. He was a stern disciplinarian and expelled many monks from the community at Nalanda for not observing the rules. A division among his followers led to the development of the Yogachara school of philosophy. Nagarjuna taught that all things are empty, but he answered critics that this does not deny reality but explains how the world happens. Only from the absolute point of view is there no birth or annihilation. The Buddha and all beings are like the sky and are of one nature. All things are nothing but mind established as phantoms; thus blissful or evil existence matures according to good or evil actions.)
Why did Buddhism then fail in India? One reason i gave was Islamic onslaught. But then how did Hinduism survive that onslaught while Buddhism fell prey to it?
A thousand years after Buddha founded the religion, Buddhism became a rigid, ritualistic religion, the very concept that was anathema to Buddha. Hinduism fought back by trying to incorporate the buddhist thought process into its own fold. Hindus deemed Buddha as an avataar of Vishnu, which the Buddhists vehemently denied. While Hinduism sought to take Buddhism under its fold, Buddhism, fearing this tendency, went to an elaborate extent to distinguish itself from hinduism (``the Vedic religion). Vast Viharas were built which became exclusive properties of Monks who were being lavished riches by their benefactors. When muslim invaders came, they went after easily identifiable targets. In case of Buddhists, these were monks,monasteries and their scriptures. Utter destruction of Nalanda by muslim invaders has been well documented and i have written about it in the past in Chowk. Once monasteries, books, monks were destroyed, nothing was left for a Buddhist revival.
Hinduism was difficult to destroy. One had to kill every brahmin spread over a large landmass. Brahmin carried the scriptures, holy mantras in his memory (in a long line of succession). Muslim invaders massacred and killed brahmins by thousands but still could not exterminate them. Temples, in comparison, were easier to destroy.
Vedic revival was, in the end, spearheaded from South by one of the greatest spiritual minds world has ever seen: Adi Sankara, travelling around India, reestablished Vedic thoughts and filled the vaccum created by eclipse of Buddhism. He also defeated many Buddhists (who were still there in the mainlands of India) in debates through his new philosophy of Advaita. Thus while Buddhism did not have such revival and slowly withered away, Vedic religion found resurgence under the guidance of Adi Sankara.
Adi Sankara is generally venerated by the common man for the establishment of the four Peethas and creating the lineage of Sankaracharyas. The Advaita philosophy is, by and large, attributed to Adi Sankara. He is also known for his superb commentaries on Brahmasutra (one of the 3 most sacred texts for Hindus, the other 2 being Upanishad and Geeta; goes by the acronymn BUG!).
Ultimately, any religious thought or philosophy survives only if it is endowed with ``Bhakti`` or devotion. Religion can`t survive as a pure intellectual exercise (as shown by eclipse of Buddhism from India) or as a brute force (as Islam is learning of late).
Adi Shankara, in his later years turned towards devotion, writing many devotional songs, most famous of which is Bhaja Govindam (song to perfection by M.S.Subbulakshmi). Survival of Vedic religion in India has much to do with AdiSankara.
Sridhar
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