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The Middle Kingdom Wallas

Nazar Khan January 14, 2005

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#103 Posted by Romair on January 18, 2005 12:48:45 pm
vivek #47: First of all, welcome to Chowk (haven’t seen you here before). Going by your name, you seem to be an Indian. And going by your comments, quite a balanced one. Now you can join Dost-mittar as perhaps the only other one in this site. I think he must have been getting lonely. Shank –“Romair is right”– er started out as a Gandhian, but this site has quickly turned him into card-carrying member of the RSS. So you may want to be careful :-)

“Not so fast. It’s going to take more than 50 years for China to become a super power. Mere increse in GDP will not make it a superpower. No nation is even close to USA and will not be for a very long time. There`s no room for two superpowers in the present structure of the world.”

Yes, I agree. USA is way way ahead. My suggestion was that China would (may) end up in the same league. Not as strong as the USA, but a good competitor.

”Also about trade between China and Pakistan, its not likely to grow for a long time either. China`s biggest export are consumer items so why would it import them from Pakistan?”

This is also true. Trade may not increase much. But alliances based on economics can increase. Do keep in mind that Pakistan’s buys a huge chunk of its military equipment from China. They have jointly developed fighter aircrafts. Many of the mega-projects in Pakistan are being carried out by China. Gwadar with access to China could become a main route to the sea for China, etc. And China will face a human resource shortage in certain fields shortly, which Pakistan could fill.........

”On India-Pakistan trade, I agree that people have too high expectations and it’s unlikely to materialise.”

I think it will materialise. But it will benefit consumers and businesses only in some areas. For example, Pakistan imports tea from Kenya, since it cannot grow it, itself. Tea from India would be cheaper. I heard India is short on salt. Pakistan has salt mines. India could get to Iranian gas, via Pakistan. Pakistan could get the overflowing of the Indian IT contracts that Indian companies don’t want, etc.

What I am stating is that, trade is not going to make either of the countries rich. It will not have much of an affect on either economy. It will only make a small dent. Two poor guys trading with each other cannot become rich. It will however help in the peace process.

The more I read about Pakistanis claiming to be the next Islamic superpower and Indians claiming to be the next int’l or Asian superpower, the more I realize what kind of dreamland certain people live in. South Asia is the second worst and poorest place to live in the world, after Sub-Saharan Africa. Both Pakistan and India are much lower on the Human Development Index than even Palestine. Yet we keep portraying ourselves as, ``powers`` or, ``potential powers!``

I think Muslims of this area are far too caught up in their historical glory. And keep envisioning themselves as a born-again conquering power. And Hindus in the area are too embarrassed by their historical subjugation. And keep wanting to portray themselves as future conquerors.
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#102 Posted by Romair on January 18, 2005 11:22:24 am
shankar #69: “Romair is right”

Has the sun started coming out of the West? Has George Bush turned into Shakespeare? Have our Indian friends started showering more than once a month? What the hell is going on? I spend two days away from Chowk, and all hell breaks lose. Did Shankar actually say, “Romair is right?” This has to be a misprint? Chowk Staff kindly check your archives and delete this entry from your database, before Shankar becomes a persona-non-grata in his place of birth.

How can a lowly Pakistani ever be right on anything related to India? How can that be? Have our Indian colleagues finally started going soft, Are they now actually accepting comments from across the border? I was expecting the next headline to be, “India stops peace process process with Pakistan, until Pakistan declares India the next superpower….” But I end up with, “Romair is right!!!”

Shankar, you will be regretting these words for the rest of your life……You may want to get them tatooed on your forehead………They will be coming back to haunt you in each of my future replies……..
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#101 Posted by rsridhar on January 18, 2005 10:13:47 am
re:#90 by singularity
I think u are confusing between democracy and secularism. West adopted secularism to seperate Church from the State. Democracy had always existed in India in the past as evidenced by Panchayati Raj or local self-governing bodies since ancient times.

I too believed that concept of secularism is deep rooted among Indians in India but Gujarat riots shattered that myth. I think the secularism practised by the West, wherein the seperation of State from Religion has constitutional guarantees, is a good concept. Not everybody in India has imbibed the deep rooted philosophy of ``sarva dharma sahishnuta`` (or respect of all religions) that Vedas preach. Men like Modi put us to shame every now and then.
Sridhar
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#100 Posted by rsridhar on January 18, 2005 10:13:47 am
re: Global trends: India versus China
NIC or National Intelligence Council is a US body that monitors global trends. According to its website:
(Over the past quarter century the National Intelligence Council has developed into an all-source center of strategic thinking. Drawing on the best available expertise inside and outside government, it provides the Director of Central Intelligence and US Government policymakers with an authoritative voice addressing the complex international issues of today and identifying and illuminating those that lie ahead.)
At policy level, its inputs are carefully reviewed by policy makers in USA. What does NIC have to say about India and China in the years to come?
http://www.cia.gov/nic/NIC_globaltrend2020_s2.html#rise

Excerpts:
(India vs. China: Long-Term Prospects

India lags economically behind China, according to most measures such as overall GDP, amount of foreign investment (today a small fraction of China’s), and per capita income. In recent years, India’s growth rate has lagged China’s by about 20 percent. Nevertheless, some experts believe that India might overtake China as the fastest growing economy in the world. India has several factors working for it:

* Its working-age population will continue to increase well into the 2020s, whereas, due to the one-child policy, China’s will diminish and age quite rapidly.


* India has well-entrenched democratic institutions, making it somewhat less vulnerable to political instability, whereas China faces the continuous challenge of reconciling an increasingly urban and middle-class population with an essentially authoritarian political system.


* India possesses working capital markets and world-class firms in some important high-tech sectors, which China has yet to achieve.

On the other hand, while India has clearly evolved beyond what the Indians themselves referred to as the 2-3 percent “Hindu growth rate,” the legacy of a stifling bureaucracy still remains. The country is not yet attractive for foreign investment and faces strong political challenges as it continues down the path of economic reform. India is also faced with the burden of having a much larger proportion of its population in desperate poverty. In addition, some observers see communal tensions just below the surface, citing the overall decline of secularism, growth of regional and caste-based political parties, and the 2002 “pogrom” against the Muslim minority in Gujarat as evidence of a worsening trend.

Several factors could weaken China’s prospects for economic growth, especially the risks to political stability and the challenges facing China’s financial sector as it moves toward a fuller market orientation. China might find its own path toward an “Asian democracy” that may not involve major instability or disruption to its economic growth—but there are a large number of unknowns.

In many other respects, both China and India still resemble other developing states in the problems each must overcome, including the large numbers, particularly in rural areas, who have not enjoyed major benefits from economic growth. Both also face a potentially serious HIV/AIDS epidemic that could seriously affect economic prospects if not brought under control. According to recent UN data, India has overtaken South Africa as the country with the largest number of HIV-infected people.

The bottom line: India would be hard-pressed to accelerate economic growth rates to levels above those reached by China in the past decade. But China’s ability to sustain its current pace is probably more at risk than is India’s; should China’s growth slow by several percentage points, India could emerge as the world’s fastest-growing economy as we head towards 2020.)
Similar trends are projected for Russia, Brazil etc. But China and India are on top of the list of nations that will have a global impact by 2020.
Sridhar


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#99 Posted by rsridhar on January 18, 2005 10:13:47 am
re: India versus Pakistan: NIC projection
Talking of global trends, where will India and Pak be by 2020? What does NIC have to say on this?
http://www.cia.gov/nic/NIC_globaltrend2015.html#link13b
(South Asia
Regional Trends. The widening strategic and economic gaps between the two principal powers, India and Pakistan—and the dynamic interplay between their mutual hostility and the instability in Central Asia—will define the South Asia region in 2015.

* India will be the unrivaled regional power with a large military—including naval and nuclear capabilities—and a dynamic and growing economy. The widening India-Pakistan gap—destabilizing in its own right—will be accompanied by deep political, economic, and social disparities within both states.

* Pakistan will be more fractious, isolated, and dependent on international financial assistance.

* Other South Asian states—Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, and Nepal—will be drawn closer to and more dependent on India and its economy. Afghanistan will likely remain weak and a destabilizing force in the region and the world.

Wary of China, India will look increasingly to the West, but its need for oil and desire to balance Arab ties to Pakistan will lead to strengthened ties to Persian Gulf states as well.

Demographic Challenges. Although population growth rates in South Asia will decline, population still will grow by nearly 30 percent by 2015. India`s population alone will grow to more than 1.2 billion. Pakistan`s projected growth from 140 million to about 195 million in 2015 will put a major strain on an economy already unable to meet the basic needs of the current population. The percentage of urban dwellers will climb steadily from the current 25-30 percent of the population to between 40-50 percent, leading to continued deterioration in the overall quality of urban life. Differential population growth patterns will exacerbate inequalities in wealth. Ties between provincial and central governments throughout the region will be strained.

Jammu and Kashmir: Ethnic Mix of a Disputed State (195k)

Resource and Environmental Challenges. Water will remain South Asia`s most vital and most contested natural resource. Continued population and economic growth and expansion of irrigated agriculture over the next 15 years will increasingly stress water resources, and pollution of surface and groundwater will be a serious challenge. In India, per capita water availability is likely to drop by 50-75 percent. Because many of the region`s waterways are interstate, water could become a source of renewed friction. Deforestation in India and Nepal will exacerbate pollution, flooding, and land degradation in Bangladesh.

India in 2015. Indian democracy will remain strong, albeit more factionalized by the secular-Hindu nationalist debate, growing differentials among regions and the increase in competitive party politics. India`s economy, long repressed by the heavy hand of regulation, is likely to achieve sustained growth to the degree reforms are implemented. High-technology companies will be the most dynamic agents and will lead the thriving service sector in four key urban centers—Mumbai, New Delhi, Bangalore, and Chennai. Computer software services and customized applications will continue to expand as India strengthens economic ties to key international markets. Industries such as pharmaceuticals and agro-processing also will compete globally. Numerous factors provide India a competitive advantage in the global economy. It has the largest English-speaking population in the developing world; its education system produces millions of scientific and technical personnel. India has a growing business-minded middle class eager to strengthen ties to the outside world, and the large Indian expatriate population provides strong links to key markets around the world.

Despite rapid economic growth, more than half a billion Indians will remain in dire poverty. Harnessing technology to improve agriculture will be India`s main challenge in alleviating poverty in 2015. The widening gulf between ``have`` and ``have-not`` regions and disagreements over the pace and nature of reforms will be a source of domestic strife. Rapidly growing, poorer northern states will continue to drain resources in subsidies and social welfare benefits.)

While India will have to overcome many hurdles, projection for Pakistan is not rosy:

(Pakistan in 2015. Pakistan, our conferees concluded, will not recover easily from decades of political and economic mismanagement, divisive politics, lawlessness, corruption and ethnic friction. Nascent democratic reforms will produce little change in the face of opposition from an entrenched political elite and radical Islamic parties. Further domestic decline would benefit Islamic political activists, who may significantly increase their role in national politics and alter the makeup and cohesion of the military—once Pakistan`s most capable institution. In a climate of continuing domestic turmoil, the central government`s control probably will be reduced to the Punjabi heartland and the economic hub of Karachi.)

Some of this projection is already coming true. In an effort to secure its energy needs, India is seen coming close to Arab nations (including Saudi Arabia) and recently hoisted an International Conference on this issue. While a deal has been signed with Myanmar for a gas pipeline passing through Bangladesh (with latter`s approval), the gaspipeline from Iran to India thr` Pakistan remains a pipedream. India also recently signed a huge contract with Iran for buying natural gas at low cost and is investing in Oil fields in Russia and Sudan.
Pakistan, by linking any progress with Kashmir, has shot itself on its foot. But then, decision in Pak is made by Military and not by any intelligent inputs from Strategists.
Sridhar
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#98 Posted by rsridhar on January 18, 2005 10:13:47 am
re:#91 by amit
Ha, ha, ha.
Here is a scenario that could well have happened.
When Mushy boy went to China, he was wanting to explore the commonalities of Pakis and Chinese. After all, China had been their all-weather friend.
In one venue, Mushy was greeted by Chinese models dressed traditionally and bowing with both palms brought together the way hindus do. ``Blasphemy`` muttered Mushy but he controlled himself. As he was going through a section of a Mall famous for food, he stopped near one to taste a delicacy. He wanted to know what that was. Snake meat, told the vendor politely. Mushy`s stomach churned from inside and he felt like puking but he controlled himself. He was then ushered into a huge temple that was an important legacy from the past, he was told. As he entered the temple wondering what he was going to see, he came face to face with a 40 feet image of Buddha sitting in lotus posture. ``Blasphemy`` muttered Mushy again.
As he was walking towards the aircraft that was to carry him home, one part of his brain said:``these chinese are all kaafirs. We should just dump them. There is no difference between them and the Hindus who we hate``. Another part of brain said: `` these are our masters. They have helped us in dire times. They have given us loan when we needed them and written off debt when we could not pay back their loans. They have given us the missiles and taught us how to launch them; And most importanty they too hate Indians like we do. So, they are our friends``.
Mushy suppressed the part of the brain that rebelled and went and announced to the world that his visit was very successful.
Sridhar
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#97 Posted by mohar11 on January 18, 2005 10:13:47 am
#93 by aquaris
//...Chineese are reliable, dependable, and trustworthy.... they will tell you on your face....and won`t Back stab you....///

Take it easy buddy boy :) We know this is the open season for sinophilia, but let`s not go overboard here.
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#96 Posted by rsridhar on January 18, 2005 10:13:47 am
re:#93 by aquaris

(Chineese are reliable, dependable, and trustworthy.... they will tell you on your face....and won`t Back stab you..)
Historians may argue who started the 1962 border war between India and China but the truth is: it happened at the height of Indo-China friendship and ``Panchsheel``. China flaunted world opinion when it launched its Army against Indian border states. Months before this, Chou-en-lai, on a state visit to India, had embraced Nehru and proclaimed Hindi-Chini bhai bhai.
There is backstabbing for you.
There is one dictum that people forget: friendship happens only between equal partners. In case of China and Pak, it is a strategic alliance not friendship. You may read a well written article in the following Url to learn why China and Pak continue to be allies:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/EK08Df06.html
Sridhar
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#95 Posted by mohar11 on January 18, 2005 10:13:46 am
#91 by amit
//...What do you Pakistanis see in these Chaptas, er, I mean the Chinese :-) ?...//

That`s easy. Can you say ``Sugar Daddy``? For us pakis - the chinese are the sugar-daddy. They protect us from the kufr hinuds [ at leaset that what we think or wish ] and they give us missiles, nukes and money. Sure they seem to land from a different planet, but so what? Gotta fight the hinuds, you know. Who else will give us the goodies to fight the hinuds?

What`s that - the chinese are kufrs too??? ...... Yeah, but that`s OK. It is written in koran - muslims are allowed to use one kufr against the other. Muhammad(pbuh) himself did it when he was fghting battles in such and such places.

But what about the Xinjiang muslims? ..... well, they are not really of arabic extraction like us pakis, so they are not really muslims. So the chinese can whatever they want to them. We just want to fight the hinuds. They are the evil ones.
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#94 Posted by antihypochrist on January 18, 2005 7:57:40 am
Singularity # 90,

Its nothing to do with the British hangover. Let us as a nation, show humility atleast until we have the bragging rights. We all realize we are moving in the right direction; but still have miles ahead. Religion does not pay you; history does not pay you either. Leave our glorious past for the historians to fight over. There is no point trying to prove which country contributed to which in the past. Do we realize how many man-hours are lost in thinking and fighting for the past? This is what I mean, when I say we need to learn to be pragmatic.
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#93 Posted by aquaris on January 18, 2005 7:57:40 am
Amit

Chineese are reliable, dependable, and trustworthy.... they will tell you on your face....and won`t Back stab you....
...and honestly I cannot say the same about Indians, Pakistani,and Bangladeshis...
...they will appear meek....but when the time comes... they will be the first to backstab you.

...though its a pretty broad generalization....and not all five fingers are equall.....but still i would be more cautious....... with them....


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#92 Posted by mohar11 on January 18, 2005 7:57:40 am
#80 by tahmed32
//....the damn mongol barbarians bothered them thru the centuries, and the chinese didnt whine: they built a wall instead to keep them out//

Yep - the chinese are wise indeed. It took hinuds some years to get that simple idea but finally they are catching on to this idea of a wall .... or a fence if you will[albeit an electronic one, with lasers and sensors and what not] to keep paki barbarians out :)
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#91 Posted by M.B.Z.Isphahani on January 17, 2005 10:13:42 pm
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#90 Posted by echoboom on January 17, 2005 10:13:42 pm
To set the record straight:

So that the secularists, atheists, munafiques, liberals & all ilks-tilks can feel singed & roasted right here & now, before their departure for the real fire-works.



According to Muslim traditions, when the early Muslims were being persecuted in Mecca some of them were allowed to migrate to Habash (Abyssinia) but most of them later came back, including the famous companions and muazzin Bilal. However, the Books of Individual Records noticed that four companions did not return, one of them being Abi Waqqas, a maternal uncle of the Holy Prophet. It is narrated that Abi Waqqas had gained favour with the Najashi King of Habash who had allowed him to sail to China.
This tallies with the account of Liu Chih (who wrote a 12-volume Life of the Prophet in Chinese in 1721 A.D.) according to which Abi Waqqas, the Holy Prophets maternal uncle, arrived in China with three other Sahaba. Broomhall gives the date of this arrival in China of the Sahaba


The introduction so Islam in Western China makes a still more colourful and fascinating study. According to Tang Dynasty (618-907 A.D.) records, two embassies, one from Yezdegrid, the grandson of Khosroes and the other from the Roman Empire, came to the court of Tai Tsung, the second tang Emperor (627-650) in 638 and 643 respectively and both reported their defeats at the hands of the Arabs. Yezdegird, the last of Sassanian Kings of Iran, had sought refuge with the Turkish tribes of Ferghana an had also sought friendship with Emperor Tai Tsung whose capital was at Chang An (modern Sian). The Chinese of the time were at the hight of their power, and had their frontiers with the persian Empire. In 650 Tai Tsung died and his son, Emperor Kao Tsung, received an appeal for aid from Firuz, the son of Yezdegird. Kao Tsung sent an emissary to Caliph Osman at Madina to plead for Firuz and the Caliph in return sent one of his generals to Sian in 651 and thus the first Muslim Embassy was established in Western China.
During the reign of the Omayyad Caliph, Walid I, Central Asia, India, North Africa and Spain were being conquered. At the time when Mohammad Bin Qasim had landed in Sind, Qutaiba Bin Muslim was making advances in Central Asia. Emperor Hsuan Tsung and the envoy refused to kow tow to the Emperor saying he could only bow to the Almighty Allah. However, Qutaiba agreed to release the Chinese prisoners on the condition that they taught Muslims how to make paper an art the Chinese had masteres. Thus the art of paper-making was acquired by the Arabs and taken to Baghdad. From there this art spread to Egypt, Spain and later to Europe.
It was because of the death of Caliph Walid I (719 A.D.) the assassination of Qutaiba and the overthrow of the Omayyads by the Abbasids that the Arab advance in Central Asia was halted. This period corresponds in time with the Battle of Tours in France (732 A.D.) when Muslim advances in Europe were also halted.
In 755 A.D., five years after the rise of the Abbasids, during the reign of Abu Jaffar, the 3rd Abbasid Caliph, a rebellion broke out in China the leader of which was a Turk named An Lu-shan. Emperor Hasuan Tsung was driven from his capital and he abdicated in favour of his son Su Tsung (756-763 A.D.) who appealed to the Arabs for help. Abu Jaffar sent 4,000 Muslim soldiers who recovered Sian and Honanfu for the Emperor in 757 A.D. These soldiers never went back, but instead married in China and formed the nucleus of the naturalised Chinese Muslims in Western China whose descendents live there even today. The story was repeated by Tai Tsung (763-780 A.D.), son of Su Tsung, who also sought help from Abu Jaffar when 300,000 Tibetans invaded his kingdom. Abu Jaffar sent a large contingent so much so that the Chinese government was obliged to double the tax on tea to raise funds to pay them. These Muslims also settled down in Western China and some in Yunnan, in South China, where they came to be known as Panthays.
As a result of contact with Muslim armies, many people accepted Islam, among them a tribe ralled Hui Chi, after whom the Muslims of China were known until the time of the Yuan (Mongol) dynasty, when the name was changed to Hui-Hui, by which name they are still known. But there is another name, which is generally used by Muslims, that is, Ching Zhen, In Chinese, Islam is called Ching Zhen Jiao, meaning Pure Religion, as Ching and Zhen mean clean and real respectively.

Muslims Under Sung, Yuan and Ming Dynasties:
During the Sung Dynasty (960-1280), the Court Records mention twenty embassies from Arabia. Muslims received good treatment from the kings of this dynasty and many of them were given titles and appointed to high posts.
The news of this treatment spread to the Muslim countries and many Muslims came from Turkestan to find employment in the Chinese army.
During the Mongol period (Yuan Dynasty, 1260-1368 A.D.) the Muslims thrived and established themselves as an important section of Chinese society.
The records of Yuan Dynasty include many biographies of distinguished Muslims who were employed by the Mongols. Sayid Ajjal (Sai Tien-Chih) of Bokhara became the conqueror and governor of Yunnan. His son, Nasaruddin is mentioned by Marco Polo. He distinguished himself in the wars against Cochin China and Burma. Alauddin (A-lao-wa-ting) and Ismail (I-ssu-ma-yin) were sent from Persia to China as expert makers. Their machines were used in the catapult siege of Siang Yang fu in 1271 A.D. Jamal-ud-Din, a Persian astronomer presented to Kublai Khan seven Persian astronomical instruments (1267 A.D.) and a new chronology entitled Wannianli (The Ten Thousand Year Chronology).
Under the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644) also, the Muslims enjoyed privileges, and, both in the army and the civil services, occupied high positions. Numerous embassies came to China from Arabia and Muslim arts and crafts influenced China. A number of Muslim artistic motifs can be seen in the famous Ming porcelain and the beautiful blue of this porcelain is due to the introduction of Persian cobalt. A good deal of porcelain belonging to this period bears Arabic words and inscriptions and verses from the Holy Quran. Moreover, many shapes of Tang, Sung and Ming china are based on those common in Islamic countries.
During the Ming period, Admiral Zheng Ho and his lieutenant Ma Huan (Muhammad Hasan) became famous as navigators and explorers. Zheng Ho was the name bestowed on Sai Ho Ch`ih (i.e. Sayyid Haji) by Yung Lo, the third Emperor of the Ming. He is also known by the title San Pao Kung (Our Master of the Three Jewels) given to him by the grateful Chinese settlers of South East Asia, who worship him to this day as one of their saints. Zheng Ho was born in 1371 A.D. in the fourth year of the reign of the first Ming Emperor Hung Wu. Having los this father at the early age of twelve he joined military service and took a prominent part in the subjugation of his ancestral Yunnan province fro the newly risen Ming power. he achieved spectacular successes in the pacification of the frontier provinces of China while he was still in his teens. His distinguished services to the state brought him royal favour, which he utilised for the welfare of his fellow Muslims, A living monument of his solicitude for the Chinese Muslims is the stone tablet of the Sian mosque, which commemorates some of the generous concessions that he obtained for them from the grateful Emperor. In 1403 Emperor Yung Lo ascended the throne and planned to extend the Chinese political influence and trade overseas. For this ambitious venture he selected Zheng Ho to lead Chinese armadas in the China Sea and the Indian Ocean. The story of his seven maritime expeditions has few parallels in the history of navigation. Having churned the waves of the Western Pacific and Indian Ocean almost a century before Vasco da Gama reached India, Zheng Ho made his last voyage to the Eternal Home in 1435 at the age of 65.

The Panthays of Yunnan:
Islam was introduced in Yunnan (literally South of Clouds ) province by the soldiers of Kublai khan in the beginning of Yuan Dynasty (1260-1368 A.D.). Marco Polo writes of the presence of Saracens in Yunnan. Rashid-ud-Din, who died in 1316 A.D. wrote: All inhabitants of Yachi (modern Talifu) are Mohammedans . Kublai Khan united this province in 1257 A.D. and appointed one of his ministers Sai Tien-Chih (Syed Ajjal) as governor. Syed Ajjal was from Bokhara and traced his lineage to the Holy Prophet in the 27th generation. His son Nasaruddin and grandson Saddi were also governors of Yunnan.
It was during the Manchu rule that the Panthays of Yunnan (so named after the Burmese name for Muslims) had their difficulties and clashes with the Central government in which millions are said to have perished. An Imam of Talifu, Ma Teh-hsing and his lieutenant Ma Hsien (Mohammad Hassan) declared their independence in 1855 and so did Tu Wen-siu (Sultan Suleiman) who made Talifu his capital at a time when the Central government was engaged in the Taiping uprising and the Second Opium War which led to the occupation of Peking by Western powers.

Sultan Sulaiman adopted the title of Generalissimo (Yuan Shuai) and established regular caravan trade with Burma. Ma Hsien, meanwhile, accepted service with the Imperial Army in the rank of Brigadier General (Chen Tai). While serious differences arose between Ma Hsien and Sultan Sulaiman, the Taiping uprising was put down with the help of General (Chinese) Gordon in 1864 and the Central government then concentrated forces against Sultan Sulaiman. It is said that when he was finally convinced of his impending defeat at the hands of Imperial Army at Talifu, Sultan Sulaiman first poisoned his three wives and five daughters and then himself committed suicide on 15 January 1873 after having ruled the area for 16 years. Since then the population of Panthays in Yunnan has been on the decrease.

The tungans of Western China:

Tungan or Dungan is the word for converts in turkish and the term was generally used for muslims in the areas now comprising Kansu, Ningsha and Xinjiang. These were the people converted to Islam through contacts with Arabs since the days of Tang Dynasty. Vigurs (or Vighurs), a Turkish race originally Buddhists, they had followed the example of their beloved prince Sartook Bookra Khan (Satoq Bughra Khan) and had become Muslims en masse.
The Tungans also had a difficult time under the Manchus specially in 1785, from 1862 to 1876 and in 1895 because they resented wearing of Manchu style queues and also the restrictions imposed on building mosques and performing pilgrimage etc.

The Story of Yaqub Beg:

Yaqub Khan came to Chinese Turkistan from Khokand in 1864 as a subordinate officer with approximately 60 men. Being a man of action and ability, he set up an independent kingdom in Yangi Hissar, Kashgar and Yarkand which lasted for 12 years. The Amir of Bokhara conferred on him the title of Atalik Ghazi. He added Kucha, Aksu, Urumchi and Turfan to his territories and in 1872 his independence was recognised by the Russians and subsequently by Britain and Turkey. The Sultan of Turkey conferred on him the title of Amir-ul-Momineen. In the meantime the Ching Emperor having successfully dealt with the Taiping uprising, deputed an experienced general, Tso Chung-tang, to establish Chinese suzeranity in the area. General Tso raised an Agricultural Army which produced its own food as it went along thus overcoming the logistic problem of crossing the Gobi desert. The campaign was slow and it cost the Chinese government 30 million pound sterling but it succeeded. Urumchi fell in 1876. Yaqub Beg suddenly died on 1st May 1877. Although the Ching Emperor tolerated a Muslim local chieftain at Turfan, his position was maintained for political purposes without any real power.

Recent History

Coming nearer our times, Dr. Sun Yatsens revolution which delivered the Chinese people from the Manchus and overthrew the Ching Dynasty in 1911 was welcomed by the Chinese Muslims also. Dr. Sun Yatsen proclaimed the doctrine of harmony and equality of five races . These five races (or nationalities as these are called now) were Han, Manchu, Tibetan, Mongol and Hui (i.e. Muslim) and are represented on the flag of the People`s Republic by the 5 stars. During this period Muslims were appointed to important positions in the Army and they also secured seats in the National Legislative Assembly and held high posts in the Nationalist government.
When Chairman Mao led the Workers and Peasants Red Army in the famous Long March of 6,000 miles (1934-35), many Muslims joined the Red Army. It is said that a mosque was built for them at Yenan, Chairman Maos headquarters after the Long March. later, during the war against the japanese and during the struggle against Chiang Kai Shek, most Chinese Muslims joined the struggle alongwith the majority of the Han Chinese. Xinjiang was secured without a fight due to the efforts of Burhan Shahidi and Aziz Saifuddin. Burhan Shahidi is now the President of the Islamic Association of China and Saifuddin an Alternate Member of the Politburo. Chairman Mao and Premier Zhou Enlai took special care to look after the Muslims in China so much so that the People`s Liberation Army was especially instructed to follow at 10-point code in Muslim areas which include the protection of Mosques, a ban on eating or mentioning of pork and a ban on fraternisation with Muslim women. During the Agrarian Reforms of 1950, when all lands belonging to temples and monasteries were nationalised, the waqf (endowment) property attached to the mosques was exempted from confiscation. Article three of the agriculture Reform Law (1950) stipulated that lands belonging to the mosques may be kept by them depending on circumstances and with the consent of the Muslim residents in the area where the mosques are located .

After the down-fall of the Gang of Four the People`s Government under the directions of the present leaders has implemented a policy of national equality and regional autonomy. They have followed a liberal policy towards religious minorities aimed at allowing freedom of religious belief and freedom to speak and write minority languages and respect for the customs and habits of the minorities. Old mosques are being renovated and reopened. The famous Peking Niu Chief mosque (built in 996 A.D.) for instance, has been completely renovatedand draws large crowds of Muslims not only on festivals but on Fridays and weekdays. One can see that the environment for Muslims in China is growing more and more congenial.
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#89 Posted by Singularity on January 17, 2005 10:13:42 pm
#87 RShridhar,
The ideas of Democracy in the west arose out of the need to separate state and the church. It is only a working arrangement. People are not inherent and natural democrats coz of their Tribal, White, Christian Root. They grudgingly follow the law. The law can hold a soceity only during good times. During times of crisis no LAW can hold them to practice equality. That is when their inherent belief in their IN-TOLERANT, Il-logically superior dogmas will surface.

On the Other hand Democracy is natural to Indians. Throughout Indian history, event the Kings followed certain principles. That is our civilizational achievement.

India will look up to the US for the next decade or so. The Ameircanization of India is not happening to the extent that media claims. Indians are evolving a hybrid culture and eventually will absorb western influences and make it distinctly Indian.

The Indian ideas are the truth about Hindu Dharma, that God is Universal and that the whole Universe is One family. That is a powerful idea. An evolved west will grab on to that idea just like the whole of Asia grabbed on to Buddism in the past. Christianity wont sell in an increasingly knowledge based world. So they will have to turn to a more spiritual version of christianity, which is the essence of Dharmic faith.

Secondly, Indians are not loosing touch with their roots. If any, they are returning back to the root. It will happen with more resources at the people`s disposal. More will try to learn Indian history. Arts always follows wealth creation. It is Technology which initially leads the wealth creation. Only if wealth is there people can move on to Arts and History.So it will happen.

thirdly, as for the donation, Indians this time have donated $ 100 million to PM TSUNAMI relief fund in 3 weeks. It took close to a year to collect the same amount in 2001 during Gujarat Earth quake. Also many individual donations and voluntary work has been unprecedented in a typically indifferent Indian mass. What this shows is that people will donate ONLY if they feel confident about their finanacial status and are confident about their financial future. Also, per capita, India is still a poor country than US and will remain so in my lifetime. So More Americans can donate more per capita than Indians. But that doesn`t mean Indians are not as giving. It only means that Americans of today are more wealthy and more confident of their financial future than Indians. Watch out how that pattern swiftly changes when the US enters a prolonged recession in the next 7/8 years after the Baby boomer retirement.

#79 Kaalchakra, #82 Mohar11: There are still some Indians with British hangover who think ascertianing yourself is against Indian ethos. But as India gets that animal spirit such people will jump fence.
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#88 Posted by amit on January 17, 2005 10:13:42 pm
Re:Romair

What do you Pakistanis see in these Chaptas, er, I mean the Chinese :-) ? They dont talk like us, they dont think like us, they dont eat like us. They are pretty much from some other planet as far as we desis are concerned. How can you guys even imagine choosing them over us Indians? I mean, come on, can a chinese ever appreciate a good Sardarji joke or a typical Punjabi gaali? Can a chinese ever appreciate a Bollywood movie or Mohammad Rafi? Heck, a chinese will probably find Aishwarya Rai to be ugly. And we will probably throw up on whatever they consider to be pretty. And you want to be their allies :-)? I can understand, if you choose Turkey or Iran over us based on Islam, but China? Good heavens!!
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