Cost of Questioning

I appreciate your comments but you are forgeting one essential element in academic research, although social scientists do not work in a lab but they need the project approved, work under the supervision of a specialist in the field, conduct research, get approved by at least two external examiners that too should be experts in the area, not just do the research and submit a PhD thesis. It can be a book but not a PhD degree from an academic institution. Secondly a masters from a foreign university does not qualify a person to get a PhD in a dubious manner from a Pakistani university.

If HEC promotes this kind of social research then the previous system was equally good and there is no need to introduce new policies and waste huge amounts of money on such ``reforms``.

How appropirate. Chowk staff just blocked me by IP address after I whipped one of their holy cows ``favorite`` pets.
This is the thread I started.
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This is just to prove to Sobia and Succubus that we can still get in.


Thanks to my husband, I was able to log in. The guy is a genius and he made it work just before the Super Bowl – go Eagles!

On a more serious note, Chowk is merely a reflection of the larger Paki society. Your dictatorial government, your intolerant religion, and your unfair society are all represented by Chowk. Just like in Paki society, you ban dissenters that you don’t agree with, you mysteriously make messages disappear, you wipe out entire threads you don’t like, and you block IP addresses when all else fails. You do this based on the traditional Paki “SIFARISH” system of who knows whom in power. You use selective enforcement, selective banishment, and selective judgment to make your rule prevail over the innocent subjects. Three of your civilian leaders are in exile, several journalists and columnists are in jail or “house arrest” merely for their opinion, and you have officially declared some of your own coreligionists as “non-Muslims.”

Indians can help you resolve IT and Telecomm issues, but they cannot teach you democracy and freedom of speech. That you will have to learn, practice, and defend on your own. Perhaps we Americans could help somewhat. Eye Rak and Afaghanistan are headed for democracy. Iran is next. Perhaps Pakistan will also become a democracy one day – with American help. How do you say it? Inshallah and Mashallah!

The main question for my group of associates is whether we want to waste our time on a medium where certain “pet” favorites control the environment? Six out of eight in our group have lost interest in Chowk because of its selective censorship. Kum se kum, Mumbaichick aur Nangaparbat ne Sobia ki sukhi lay lee. No wonder she was so upset and had to run to super Chowk Staff for assistance, just as Saminasha and Scout before her. When these privileged few lose their debates they run to Chowk mama – I think the rest of us can claim this as a victory!
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Thank you for letting me express my disappointment with this type of thought suppression.

I recall there was an acreditation scandal at the prestigious NDA (Natinal Defence Inst) in Pune. The local Pune Univ refused to grant NDA cadets degree at one point due to poor academic load. Indian Military did not care much, but then there are also some foreign attendees who need to be awarded a degree. So NDA made a deal with Kolhapur Shivaji Univ (a new one that time) to get their degrees printed.

Just thought i would share this long past incident.

sssssssshhhh Veeresh! Some quality discussion is taking place here. Attention hungry Indian Friends need to pollute other parts of chowk and keep this place reserved for some serious issues. :)

Veeresh! Why you don`t know too much about Pakistani education system and its dynamics, I invite you to look inside the striking NRIs students who were expelled from Medical colleges in Bengal.
Also, while India is trying to look like a knowledge based economy, they have started creating junk of engineers (30,000 engineering seats were available in Karnataka-CET alone and 25000 thousand candidates passed with hiher than 50 % in PCM ). So what do you feel, isn`t it bad for overall standard of education in India. I have seen this phenomena happening in Pakistan in CS and found that now CS professionals coming from average universities are getting pays comparable to clerical staff. I know, it also happens in India in CS. So, what if it will start happening in Engineering fields as well.

How silly of me, I write something for Veeresh...

I am indeed grateful to note that H`Indians and `orrible `indoos are not to be blamed for this, at least and long last. Nor has this anything to do with Kashmir. This is a Pure Pakistan Jinnah Problem!! Hallelujah, I am glad to note that you finally have some of them too.

I mean, there I was during my famous cricket visa days which I wrote about for those who may have missed the best travelogue award winning articles, riding on Tata-Daewoo Motorway, drinking Indian Tetley tea, buying tickets for Hinduja-Hino buses, surrounded by 15%-20% minorities all singing joyful agrarian songs in front of the Shariat Courts in Margala, and totally convinced that every problem in Pakistan including the young men with acne posturing for the Pakistan Air Force hoardings were because of H`India and `Indoos.

And now Salman Baset (may their tribe increase) writes this? It has Jinnah, it has Hoodbhoy, it has USA/UK and Pakistan Army, but it does not implicate India!!

Is Salman also from RAW, then?

+++

OK, jokes apart. Forgive me, those of you sharpening your scimitars, please?

There are presumably many, many retired Captains from the Pakistan Armed Forces doing hup-two-three-four ghaas-patti ghaas-patti Huch-Chatees Hund Girnaid 303 303 across the length and breadth of Pakistan. There are also presumably many, many fake educational qualifications available in Pakistan, including some for people who can also spell jugraphia and bilojy.

So what was the quality that this person, Usman Ali G Isani, Esq., had, that propelled him into these hallowed grounds? Did he play golf? Was he a Rajput descendant? Or what? Or is it simple paisa vasool?

Just curious. How do these things work in Pakistan?

Well a good article Salman Baset!!! Well but there are a few things I wish to point at. Capt(R) UAG Isani was definitely awarded a PhD in dubious grounds, but what I fail to understand is that the person concerned has also got an MS degree from UC Berkely. We very well know where that esteemed seat of learning stands in the world. Besides what I know of non-science subjects is that the research work carried out in them is largely done loosely and can be done anywhere without being affiliated to a university and a degree is awarded solely on the base of the thesis. So I suggest before we point to people that way, we better have a look at the thesis. I myself know many accomplished men who are pursuing PhD in subjects such as Urdu, Education etc., who tell me that when they are finished with the research they will submit their thesis for evaluation. One more thing is that, we should not evaluate institutes based on the people who founded them. For example, GIK Institute was the dream of a man who is largely controversial in Pakistani politics, the GIK himself. Now would we evaluate GIK based on that. Furthermore, I think we should better consult the students at Comstech on how they deemed the Prof. Daudpota, if he was an accomplished and respected educationist then loosing him is indeed a great loss. But if he was not made for teaching then its better that he has found employment elsewhere.

Is the problem under discussion, the, ``fake`` Ph.D. of the Vice Chancellor, or is the problem that a person with a fake or weak Ph.D. is the Vice Chancellor of Quaid-e-Azam university.

Judging by the description given of the current VC, he seems to be someone who served in the Army briefly, then left and joined the Civil Services:

``He held offices of Secretary Education Government of Sindh, Chief Secretary, Planning and Development, ..... Principal Secretary to the Prime Minister of Pakistan and Chairman University Grants Commission.``

Thiw would make the VC one of the seniormost civil servants of Pakistan, and apparently one of the most distinguished ones also. He seems to have held all the top jobs in the Civil Services. Now, is the VC of QAU supposed to be a Ph.D. professor or is he supposed to be a civil servant or either. If he can be either, than the Ph.D. status of the VC is immaterial. He could be a B.A degree holder, but as long as his seniority in the Civil Services was valid, he is qualified for the VC position. Not sure, but aren`t the Chancellors of all these universities are governors, many of whom barely have a B.A.

The problem reduces to that of fake Ph.Ds and how to control them.

If howevere, he is, by job definition supposed to have a Ph.D to be the VC, then it does come into question.

Salman, In my days ``Spider`` used to be a magazine addressing school/college/university boys. I on`t know if they have changed their content or only ``about us`` page.

I agree Aali came quite harsh on Daudpota. I don`t know what type of reason it can be. May be, he was already against daudpota and Hoodbhoy because of their somewhat activist background.

``Ghatya`` Phd term comes from one of those articles you mentioned as references and Daudpota mentioned his concern in some of his presentations at SDPI.
http://www.sdpi.org/help/articles_in_press/May_2004_news.htm

I feel, daudpota is quite logical when he criticizes General VCs who plan to intake 300 PhDs and feel that it will increase research activity.

My only concern is that such issues should not be brought too openly in public. Our public makes up its mind very early without going into the details of every matter and most of the times public view is against existing infrastructure and their approach is always that of ``Destroy it and build new from scratch``. My two cents, though.

Hi,

Very nice artile Salman, what I liked best about it is that it was very well-researched. But then again, you should know a thing or two about researching well :)

I won`t add anything to the article or its related replies but a few things I would like to mention as well. All those who are questioning the HEC`s programs (split, European, American) should kindly note that no matter how badly managed and ill-run, it is still a step in the right direction. A faltering, fledgling step towards a good goal is better than standing still, and much better than a firm step in a wrong direction.

To Digitalsurgeon`s post (#14),

``the true spirit of MS lies in research work``. I beg to differ. The spirit of an MS is to study one or two subdomains of a field in depth to be able to work at the cutting edge of those domains. Even an MS thesis does not need to be something completely new, it can be a reapplication of known techniques, tools or methodologies to a problem different than what they were intended for (albeit with some modifications). But the backbone of an MS program remains the teaching part.

Regards,
Irfan.

this is where should Mr.Pota would have gone ? Courts ? where the judges are used and abused by Government .. going to government means going to bandits themselves and ask them to do justice ! !!!! so the only other option is : going to the press... Thelka.com did it in India .. just because people would know what actually has happened coz of Thelka more then 5o cr people became witness - if Thelka would have given the tapes to CBI , I am sure the evidence would be no evidence-

I have read the jang article by Jamil-uddin-Aali that you mentioned.
http://www.jang.com.pk/jang/jan2005-daily/09-01-2005/editorial/col2.htm

I was shocked to read his words and I quote:

``Itefaaq key mujhey uss sazish kay aik namwar agent ka naam bhee maloom ho gya hai jinhein un ka moahida mulazmat khatam honay kay baad un kee matloobah toseeh naheen mili hai``

Mr. Aali says that all students doing their PhD from a university in Pakistan will have a ``ghatya`` PhD. I was surprised how he could draw such inferences when no such thing was mentioned or even implied by Dr. Isa`s article. The purpose of Dr. Isa`s article was to question the degree awarded to vice-chancellor of Quaid-e-Azam university.

Spider is not a kid`s magazine. Read the ``About Us`` section in Spider
http://www.spider.tm/jan2005/aboutusn.html

Dr. Atta-ur-Rehman is a sincere person. However, since he is heading an organization that is responsible for dispensing huge public funds, it is necessary for his organization to ensure that those funds do not go wasted, and that quality is duly maintained. HEC is making an effort in this regard, which should be duly supported. HEC`s efforts should also be complimented by creating a public awareness against those people who are trying to use these schemes to their advantage. Dr. Sohail`s email also points in this direction.

things are going bad as far as phds and ms degree`s are concerned, the ms and phd`s comming from paki univ`s even if it`s from lums etc is certainly no match to those from us/uk and in most cases the curriculum of ms in many places offering it, is same as mcs, and in some ``places`` very young ms qualified people are teaching ms ?? i think the true spirit of ms lies with research work which as we all know doesnt exist any where in pakistan, hec should take some serious steps and stop allowing institute at every gali and nukar from offering ms/phd, i think they should set a very very strint benchmark coz this will in no way help pakistan only furhter create the matters worse

as far as fake phd`s are concerned, well i work as a ``place`` in islo and i know that there is some truth to it, not every one who calls him self doctor is a phd, i think their phd degrees should be evaluated and if they are fake they should be treated very very harshly, they are playing with the future of pakistan and that should not be allowed to go on.

If quality of PhDs coming out of university was the issue, it must be discussed in HEC meetings. Atta Ur Rehman has been a very dedicated researcher. Although, I have seen people criticizing his policies, but nobody criticizes his sincerity. Also, he has good experience of running one of the best research institutes in Pakistan. If the things were discussed directly with him instead of publishing them in Spider ( a kids internet magazine ), it might have produced better results. But he politicized it and caused a whole propoganda campaign being started against everything of HEC.

Looking at the situation, even if some researchers were planning to return back to Pakistan for attractive offers by HEC, now I doubt that anyone will be willing to return.

Matter is not that simple. I fear some mafia responsible for substandard education is trying to get benefit of the situation caused by minor differences of policy makers of HEC.

I fear that if this war causes problems to HEC, it will bring down all positives done by HEC during last few years. And being a direct beneficiary of HEC policies, I will never like the role of these people involved in politics. Dr Isa may be thrown out of COMSTECH because of his political involvement. And it is a simple administration matter. Administration can`t be just all the times. May be, he is a sincere man. But a sincere man lacking wisdom is not acceptable in any case. And his wisdom can be judged the way that he is publically politicizing a sensitive national issue.

The following article published in the JANG gives a little insight into the HEC matters.
http://www.jang.com.pk/jang/jan2005-daily/09-01-2005/editorial/col2.htm

---

Also, In response to my question/concerns about HEC performance and the sudden interest of media in HEC after publishing the lists of illegal/substandard institutes of Pakistan, Dr. Sohail Naqvi replied as follows. I had also asked about the fake degrees of MNAs and MPAs.

Mr. Hamid,
HEC can not legally call to check the degree of any person, let alone an MNA or MPA. We will continue to respond vigorously but need all the people everywhere to join us in countering this propaganda. We do not profess to be perfect, but we are certainly trying and working hard to improve things.

regards

Dr. S. Sohail H. Naqvi
Executive Director
Higher Education Commission
Sector H9
Islamabad
Tel: +92 51 444 8369

Mr. Baset

Good effort but as you and I know very well that for the powers that be in Pakistan i.e. for the ruling class, the law-abiding people like Isa or you and me are nothing more than earthworms. The wailing thru the the articles like these fall on their deaf ears and is nothing more than the wiggle of earthworms. I hope you understand that the status quo cannot be changed without an all out struggle against this sytem of lawlessnes, corruption, and oppression that sucks our blood and makes us leave our country. It is sad but it is truth.

I lived in KU ( Karachi University ) campus as my mom was Dean of one of the depts. and was involved and still is involved in hard-core decision making of KU ( till today ) - let me asure you about that `fake degree(s)` were and is a part of atleast KU today . I remember a price which I checked last year , the price list is as follows..:
a ) Science Degree ( attested and verified only once ) - Rs. 38,000 - cash
b ) Arts Degree ( attested and verified twice ) - Rs- 15000
c) BA or MA in either Bangoli or Sindi - Rs.10000 - list goes on -
this is all done in Admin. Block of KU and no Prof. I am aware is involved in this scam but only junior staff from respected Depts. -
Paper Leaks- are done by the same group -

I lived in KU ( Karachi University ) campus as my mom was Dean of one of the depts. and was involved and still is involved in hard-core decision making of KU ( till today ) - let me asure you about that `fake degree(s)` were and is a part of atleast KU today . I remember a price which I checked last year , the price list is as follows..:
a ) Science Degree ( attested and verified only once ) - Rs. 38,000 - cash
b ) Arts Degree ( attested and verified twice ) - Rs- 15000
c) BA or MA in either Bangoli or Sindi - Rs.10000 - list goes on -
this is all done in Admin. Block of KU and no Prof. I am aware is involved in this scam but only junior staff from respected Depts. -
Paper Leaks- are done by the same group -

The good thing now is that Dr.Saify - ex VC KU did tried to control these rouge elements and the situation today is very much under conrtrol - and I think and let me assure you all from KU point of view fake degree`s from KU specially is history thanks to Dr.Saify and his team - plus the new VC - Pirzada Qasim

I hope an appraisal of our ministers and members of assembly would follow.

Great work Mr. Baset. I’m sure Dr. Isa would be reinstated.

God bless our nation!

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Very good work Baset!

i am glad to see this type of an objective investigative work in pakistan. also surprised to see it.

also: there are a few other aspects of objective analysis that we should practice in our society. for instance, after identification of a problem, the identification of its solution, and the development of systemic safeguards to prevent the recurrence of that problem.

i know these are different stages and this article was supposed to contribute for just one of these phases, but we should also see contributions on those lines.

inevitably, there are a few consequences of this whole drama.

- the impact on students of QAU on any such controversy needs to be considered here. how would a student be motivated to do painful hardwork to earn a terminal degree, or any degree for that mattter, when there are strong suspicions of the qualifications earned by the institution`s chief.

- what would be the impact of that gentleman on the new-coming faculty or on existing faculty? how can a person lead others with a fractured or dissipated credibility.

- also how sad is the fact that an institution of higher education gets such an ignoble and ill-famed birth. should we do something for it?

---

aside from the objective problem solving:
there are some bitter facts we need to open our eyes about too:

- did anybody question why it became prudent to simply `regard` all such pieces of sub-ordinary services as ``universities`` or ``degree granting authorities``. what prompted anyone to see the NIML as an NUML, what was it doing so superb that it became essential to make it independent? and how was its ``superb performance`` affected under the umbrella of QAU?

these are real questions before we start painting boards for the pappu university of kheti-bari, and lallu-panju university of modern patangbazi, feeka univ of chats, and dhenga univ of culinary arts, etc. almost everyday i fear reading news about such exciting creative ideas of our fellow pakistanis who are so bent upon making world records of idiocy. and all so called advanced countries dont get the idea of breaking their hundreds of departments and institutes to create a swarm of `centers of excellences`!

- systemically, perhaps it is quite an imperative to get the military be treated for its psychological disorders. well, one may argue quite reasonably why shouldnt the whole country receive such a treatment. but frankly, military qualifies for preferntial attention because the reach and effects of a sick military mind is much more than that of any civiilian mind.

our military does not seem to easily understand the plausibility of the argument that a good operational command of a few corps or intelligence offices do not grant any vision to any mind. so appointment of generals and colonels and civil servants for academic leadership positions only speak of the intellectual and logical bankrupcy of a nation where there is no strong tradition of having technorat advisory committees whose recommendations are considered important.

take it light but do not take it non-seriously! ;-)

with kind regards,

khayal !

Great work Salman. I can tell you that the general trend in Pakistan is to hush up such scandals. Whisleblowers, regardless are very small and those who do put their careers at great risk.

Its a very sad situation.

#1
ahmedmadani, you have all the right to express yourself but Pakistanis have enough of this madrassa mentality. You don`t seem or sound very brilliant.

I am for equality. This bad thing was promoted by General amoung many good things he has and been doing.
IT IS TOTAL AGAIST SPIRIT OF DEMOCRACY THAT UNLESS YOU HAVE SOME STUPID DEGREE PAPER YOU CANOT STAND AGAINST ELECTION> IT IS VIOLATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS.
SO I DO NOT MIND PEOPLE BUYING DEGREES. WHAT ONE CAN DO THEN YOU ARE TOLD TO BE STUPID AS YOU HAVE NO DEGREE PAPER. LET people have fake papers who cares.
Dam stupid lafangebazi by educated people and army election rulers and people like YLH ( IF i write they will say i am bised being without stupid degree paper)who are educated should send letters to HQ to stop stupidity. We have half educated people who are damn fools

Yes yes, I agree with all. Very clear. Very lucid.