What is Islamization of Science?

Mr. Gill,

Your post # 41 remindes a famous shair by Ghalib:

Har ek Baat pe kehte ho tum ke `Tu kya hai` ?
TumheeN kaho ke yeh andaz-e-guftgoo kya hai ?

[Not a clever remark intended.]

Anyways,

Below posts of mine were a chronological attempt of compiling Scientific studies in Islamic Era which are refrenced to the topic you have I think might havce put forward in this discussion Forum.
And I am here to sharpen my ideas and idealogies by reading and studying thought provoking research by people like you.

Nadia-Zehra:

Th`hay tau woh a`aba hee tumhaarey magr tum khud kya ho
Haath per haath dharay muntazar-e- farda ho
(Iqbal)

Wishing you well,

Mohammad Gill

Muslim Scientists in History and Islamization:
Jabir Ibn Haiyan, the alchemist Geber of the Middie Ages, is generally known as the father of chemistry. Abu Musa Jabir Ibn Hayyan, sometimes called al-Harrani and al-Sufi, was the son of the druggist (Attar). The precise date of his birth is the subject of some discussion, but it is established that he practised medicine and alchemy in Kufa around 776 A.D. He is reported to have studied under Imam Ja`far Sadiq , The holyImam Ja`far as.-Sadiqwas the sixth in the succession of the twelve Apostolic Imams. His epithet was Abu `Abdillah and his famous titles were as-Sadiq, al-Fadil and at.-Tahir. He was the son of Imam Muhammad al-Baqir, the Fifth Imam.
Imam Ja`far as-Sadiq was brought up by his grand- father, Imam Zaynu `I-`Abidm in Medina for twelve years and then remained under the sacred patronage of his father Imam Muhammad al-Baqir for a period of nine- teen years.
Imamate: After the death of his holy father in 114 AH, he succeeded him as the Sixth Imam, and thus the sacred trust of Islamic mission and spiritual guidance was relayed down to his custody right from the Holy Prophet through the succession of the preceding Imams
Teacings of Imam Jaffar Sadiq (a.s)
The versatile genius of Imam Ja`far as.-Sadiq in all branches of knowledge was acclaimed throughout the Islamic world, which attracted students from far-off places towards him till the strength of his disciples had reached four thousand. The scholars and experts in Divine Law have quoted many ahadith (traditions) from Imam Ja`far as.-Sadiq. His disciples compiled hundred of books on various branches of science and arts. Other than fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence), hadith (tradition), tafslr (exegesis of the Holy Qur`an), etc., the Holy Imam also imparted mathematics and chemistry to some of his disciples. Jabir ibn Hayyan at.-Tusi, a famous scholar of mathematics, was one of the Imam`s disciples who benefited from the Imam`s knowledge and guidance and was able to write four hundred books on different subjects.
It is an undeniable historical truth that all the great scholars of Islam were indebted for their learning to the very presence of the Ahlu `I-Bayt who were the fountain of knowledge and learning for all. Allamah ash-shibli writes in his book Siratu`n- Nu`man: ``Abu Hanifah remained for a considerable period in the attendance of Imam Ja`far as-Sadiq, acquiring from him a great deal of precious research on fiqh and hadith. Both the sects - Shi`ah and Sunni - believe that the source of Abu Hanifah`s knowledge was mostly derived from his association with Imam Ja`far as-Sadiq.`` The Imam devoted his whole life to the cause of religious preaching and propagation of the teachings of the Holy Prophet and never strove for power. Because of his great knowledge and fine teaching, the people gathered around him, giving devotion and respect that was his due. This excited the envy of the `Abbasid ruler al-Mansur ad-Dawaniqi who fearing the popularity of the Imam, decided to do away with him.
Al Hayan`s Work:
Al-Jabr Ibn Hayyan (d. 815) regarded as the father of chemistry, said: all matters can be traced to a simple, basic particle composed of a lightning-like charge and fire, which serves as the smallest indivisible unit of matter.

He discovered as many as 19 elements and is credited with correct measurements of specific weights. He perfected chemical processes such as distillation, crystallization and sublimation.

Ibn Hayyan was the first to distill vinegar into acetic acid. He introduced the relative solubility or insolubility of substance in solutions. He was the first to use glass tubes, tubes, and bottles on a large scale.

He mastered the use of chemical purification processes: distillation, sublimation, precipitation. Along with al-Jaber, they were regarded the founders of Chemistry as an exact science.

Dr. David Werner writes: In most places in India, people believe that these diseases are caused because the goddess is angry with their family or their community.
+++++++++++++++++++++++
Don`t know who Dr. Werner is, but he is merely reporting on superstitions held by the uneducated.

Actually, vaccination was a well known treatment in the Ayurvedic system of Ancient India; it was re-discovered by Jenner.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox the Wikipedia entry on smallpox:
``Smallpox is described in the Ayurveda books. Treatment included inoculation with year-old smallpox matter. The inoculators would travel all across India pricking the skin of the arm with a small metal instrument using ``variolous matter`` taken from pustules produced by the previous year`s inoculations. The effectiveness of this system was confirmed by the British doctor J.Z. Holwell in an account to the College of Physicians in London in 1767.``

Jenner gave vaccination a scientific basis, though Ayurvedic physicians were close to the truth http://www.sulekha.com/expressions/column.asp?cid=305881 ``Smallpox, Germs and Memories`` . Note that the Ayurvedic physicians did not attribute smallpox to the wrath of some goddess.
``This is how Holwell described the explanations offered to him by Ayurvedic vaidyas:
...
The immediate (or instant) cause of the smallpox exists in the mortal part of every human or animal form; that the mediate (or second) acting cause, which stirs up the first, and throws it into a state of fermentation, is multitudes of imperceptible animalculae [microorganisms] floating in the atmosphere; that these are the cause of all epidemical diseases, but more particularly of the smallpox; that they return at particular seasons in greater or lesser numbers…

It is significant that the spread of disease was taken to be due to the imperceptible animalculae (microorganisms). This was ahead of the germ theory of disease of Pasteur, Lister and Koch that arose in the 1860s and 70s.

Scholars now believe that the cure for smallpox arose in India sometime before 1000 AD. From India, the method of inoculation spread to China, western Asia and Africa and finally, in the early 18th century, to Europe and North America. The evidence for the cure reaching China comes from Imperial Chinese records.

Interesting questions arise from the Holwell account. Was the idea of the treatment derived from agada-tantra, one of the eight branches of traditional Ayurveda that deals with poisons and toxins in small dosages? ``

However, this does not imply that there is a ``Hindu`` medicine.

Fight against Myths and Disease
Al-Razi was the first ever physician to investigate the cause of smallpox. His book helped Edward Jenner to discover the vaccination.

SMALLPOX is considered one of the dangerous diseases in the world. It is a highly contagious disease, characterised by fever and the appearance of small spots leaving scars in the form of pits. The symptoms include chill, headache, and backache. The spots appear about the fourth day. This is a fatal disease. Even if one survives the attack, the skin in scarred permanently. According to present records, this disease was identified in Egypt in 1122 B.C. and is also mentioned in ancient Indian books written in Sanskrit. In the past, this disease gripped many countries in the form of dangerous epidemics. Thousands of people fell prey to it. As far back as 1156 B.C. this disease was taking its toll of human life, there being visible evidence in the pock marked face of the mummy of the Egyptian Pharaoh, Ramses V, who died in that year. (His embalmed body was found inside a pyramid). Even then, it took thousands of years for this dreaded disease to be investigated scientifically. Now we know that smallpox is a contagious disease resulting from virus infection, and such remedies have been discovered as can ward off attacks, provided suitable precaution are taken in advance. But it was not until the end of the ninth century, subsequent to the emergence of Islam, that this medical fact was unearthed for the first time.

Prior to scientific study by the Muslims, smallpox was attributed to wrath of deities and patients were left to die

The first name which became prominent in history in this connection was that of the well-known Arab physician, Al-Razi (865-925), who was born in Ray in Iran. In search of a remedy for the disease, he investigated it from the purely medical standpoint and wrote the first book on the subject, called, Al-Judri wa al-Hasba. This was translated into Latin, in 1565 in Venice and later into Greek and thus spread all over Europe. Its English translation, published in London in 1848, was entitled, A Treatise on Smallpox and Measles. Researchers have accepted that this is the first medical book on smallpox in the whole of recorded history. Prior to this, no one had ever done research on this topic.

After reading Al-Razis book, Edward Jenner (1749-1823), the English physician who became the inventor of vaccination, was led to making a clinical investigation of the disease. He established the connection between cowpox and smallpox. In 1796, he carried out his first practical experiment in inoculation. This was a success, and the practice spread rapidly, in spite of violent opposition from certain quarters, until, in 1977, it was announced by the UN that for the first time in history, smallpox had been eradicated.

Now the question arises as to why such a long time had elapsed between the initial discovery of the disease and the first attempts to investigate it medically with a view to finding a remedy. The reason was the prevalence of shirk, that is, the holding of something to be sacred when it is not, or the attribution of divinity to the non-divine. Dr. David Werner writes: In most places in India, people believe that these diseases are caused because the goddess is angry with their family or their community. The goddess expresses her anger through these diseases. The people believe that the only hope of a cure for these diseases is to make offerings to please her. They do not feed the sick child or care for him because they fear this will annoy the goddess more. So the sick child becomes very weak and either dies or takes a long time to get cured. It is essential that the child be given plenty of food to keep up his strength so that he can fight the infection.

Islam banished such superstitions about disease announcing in no uncertain terms that none except God had the power to harm or benefit mankind. The Creator was the one and only being who had such power. All the rest were His creatures and His slaves.

When, after the advent of Islam, such ideas gained ground, people began to think freely and independently of all superstitions. Only then did it become possible to conduct medical research into diseases in order to discover appropriate remedies.

Only after this intellectual revolution had come to the world did it become possible to make smallpox the subject of inquiry. Only then did it become possible for such people as Abu Bakr Razi and Edward Jenner to rise and save the world from this dreaded disease by discovering a remedy for it.

The real barrier to finding a cure was the generally accepted body of superstitious beliefs based on idol worship; these beliefs were swept away for the first time in history by Islam.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

786 is al-lah`s area code and the sooner we islamize science the sooner we will be able to figure out the rest of the number, give him a call on his cell phne and put this controversy to rest once and for all ............. kafir science will not allow us to communicate with the maer unless we can actually build one of those machines that jody foster travelled on in the movie `contact` .......... astagfirullah !

............ but before we do all this it might be a good idea to put in indoor plumbing and get abdul to take a bath and use deodrant once in a while .............. get real, guys ! ........ the ummah has yet step out of the seventh century - all this idle talk about science sounds kind of out of place ...... let the civilized world worry about it

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

khurram and vertex:

If you really know what you guys (and Faruqi and Nasr) are planning to do and it is worthwhile, I wish you best of luck. May be after seeing the results of your efforts, I will one day, if it is not too far off in the future, also understand the essence of Islamisation of Islam. Or probably it will not matter much if I understand it or not. Wishing you well and Eid Mubarak,

Mohammad Gill

emthree1:29
As John Searle once said something to the effect that by and large any subject ending with the word science is NOT science. ....

---

O what a spiritual aura, after all the dust-devils here. Thanks!

and let me parody that:
``.... effect that by and large any subject beginning with the word free is NOT free.

This ``article`` by the author, is itself like a series of surreptious visits to the unwitting CHOWK headshrinkers. These ``scientists`` , Hoodbhoy fashion, are getting nightmares thinking of the DoomsDay. They want thier ``unbelief`` to be somehow , someway, be ratified by a show of hands.

These blind in one eye want to extoll the virtues & value of being a one-eyed wonder to the rest of humanity.

If they were so much interested to do SCIENCE they would be spending their time among lab-coats and NOT among those who achieve results only by thinking and not by experimenting (empirical or inductive)

SCIENCE is just SCIENCE, nothing else. There is no need to give some lustre by elevating it to philosophy, poetry, music and LAST but MOST IMPORTANT of THEM ALL:

R E L I G I O N.

freethinker,

If you wish to draw a distinction between the ``applications`` (or the social forces behind, influences of, and consequences of) science and the practice of science itself, then I agree. However, that`s simply a matter of semantics, and so then if we talk about the ``Islamization of science`s applicaiton`` then I would expect no argument.

Except....

``Islamising (applications) of Science is probably what you are thinking about. What good is that?``

It`s plenty good even if it has the only net affect of producing Jammat`s of Physicists at the local Madrassah. Further, why can`t other agendas tacked onto science (like Ecological ones) fall victim to the same kind of ``what good is it`` attitude? It`s plenty good, I`d say.

You also wrote:

``You are trying to socialise science in the same way that the postmodernists tried to do. The basic concept is wrong.``

I wouldn`t go that far. I`m simply taking a look at WHO is doing science and what drives them, rather than the scientific results and methodologies themselves. It is a seperate from the field of study, and I`m not nearly as bold with posmod critiques of science are.

Studying, say, a group of astronomers and their dynamics and the way they work is not the same as studying astronomy. Now, are you telling me NASA and so the US government has no impact on the field of astronomy as a whole? Are you telling me the fact that a person who specializes in solid state physics is much more likely to gain employment than a person in, say, enviromental physics has no impact on what course science as a whole is taking? Are you telling me that the environmental sciences had been established without some kind of public concern? Or that the push in nano-research has no venture capatilists and major corporations behind it? Or that advances in medical treatments have no influence from the Pharmaceutical industry?

Neither good, nor bad..but that`s how it is. Science is a social process...that does not mean to say that the artifcats (theories, etc) produced by science are `subjective` or ``islamizable``. Further, I still would go on to say that there is much more to this business of science than the artificats alone. So in a sense, there`s plenty of room for Islamization insofar as there is indeed a ``westernization`` of science, most dramatically represented by the university-military-industry triad which has perhaps a monopoly on all science produced in Western societies, and heavily influence each other. Contrast that to the patronized science of the 1700`s, and you see a very different kind of ``application of science``, as you put it.

Science is neither prestine, nor can it be simply reduced to it`s results (which you would call ``real`` science). It has a huge social component, and that in turn drives what is being researched and for what purpose.

In any case, science (as you would define it) will not

a) win mindshare by itself
b) fund itself
c) propogate itself
d) build institutions for itself

So I`d say that Science is in dire need of something like ``Islamization`` is Muslim countries to get some traction...or rather Muslim countries need something like Islamization to get the Science spirit...

Dear Mr Gill,

``Science cannot work with fuzzy and subjective description you`ve provided.``

I think you completely missed my point. As I said, Islamization of science (the real one) is a philosophical and theological enterprise. It is NOT science. The goal is NOT to interfere in science or tell scientists what to do. Isn`t there a secular disciplne called Philosophy of Science? Does that mean philosphers are interfering in science? Is that fuzzy or subjective? Do scientists care? What Nasr/Faruqi are doing is an attempt to develop an Islamic philosophy of science.

``If you want to apply science the way you`ve described, it will be totally subjective.``
Application of science (i.e. what to do with the knowledge acquired) has always been subjective. This does NOT imply that the results of science are so.

``Islamization of science is not a fundamental issue as I see it. dissemination and development of science in the Muslim world is fundamental.``

Islamization of science (again, not the pseudo version) IS an attempt to encourage dissemination of science in the Muslim world. If muslims can see that science is a truly Islamic activity they would be more passionate about pursuing it.

Eid Mubarak
Khurram

Vertex Post # 27:

Vow! You have written so much and I still do not understand the objective of Islamisng science. You have written, ``If indeed science is secular, is it a prerequisite to secularise society in order to practice science?`` Now there are really two different issues herein. Science is secular in as much as it does not need religion for its progress and well-being. Science doesn`t need necessarily to secularise the society. Secularization of society is a political concept. Science doesn`t care if the society is religious or secular; it`s about finding laws to understand the natural phenomena. Whenever there was a confrontation between religion and science, religion had to backtrack because science is verified by actual observations and measurements. You are trying to socialise science in the same way that the postmodernists tried to do. The basic concept is wrong.

The cliche of Islamising of Science is misleading. Islamising (applications) of Science is probably what you are thinking about. What good is that? If for instance, manufacturing of nuclear weapons is ethically wrong and an Islamised science wouldn`t allow it, are you going to persuade Pakistan to demolish its nuclear weapons? Dr. Khan who is now a pariah in the western world is regarded indeed as the savior of Pakistan in Pakistan. I am one of them who thinks the development of nuclear weapons by Pakistan in the political climate of 1990s saved it being overrun and colonized by India.

What I am saying is that science is an independent discipline which flourishes well without intervention from religion. The application of science is a political issue. If you can Islamise politics, you might Islamise applications of science. The bottom line is you cannot Islamise science. Whosoever is trying to do so is wasting time and creating confusion where none should exist. Has anybody Islamised any science so far? I would like an example to see how good is it and to understand what Islamisation indeed is.

Wishing you well.

As John Searle once said something to the effect that by and large any subject ending with the word science is NOT science.

So concepts like social science, political science, christian science, islamic science are all non-science concepts, some trying to gain (in my view unnecesseraliy and unsuccessfully) some sort of intellectual credibility.

sattar, vertex

You are on the same page. `Fofo-gibberish,` be it aboubt the weight of angels, three-winged creatures, or giant tortoises supporting the earth, remains gibberish. Nobody should call this gibberish philosophy or religion

Freethinker, khurram:

``Science cannot work with fuzzy and subjective description you`ve provided. If you want to apply science the way you`ve described, it will be totally subjective.``

For the most part, as I understand it, no one is talking about the methodologies of science, or bringing in the notion of devine intervention into sciences. Rather, the focus has been on the social aspects of science. It`s not Islamizing the results or theories of science...it`s Islamizing the concept of getting together and doing science...the proponents of Islamization argue that this may be necessary in order for wide-spread acceptance and ownership of science among the masses. If indeed science is ``secular`` is it a prerequisite to secularize society in order to practice science? Or does it ultimately depend on following the methodology and being guided by results and reasons, ambivalent to ideological concerns? I think the latter is true, and the former not...however I also think that`s not the complete picture.

Are you telling me modern science has no agenda (not necessarily a malevolent one)? Are you telling me that, say, industry and big business has no influence on what science is being performed? I may not agree with the suggestions the Islamization crowed come up with from time to time, but I agree with the notion that science is not all about the ``facts``, and driven in part by social and cultural concerns is simply true.

In particular, the acceptance of science as an indispensable endeavor at a societal level has nothing to do with the methodology and practice of science itself. I would argue that if science were nothing but abstract concepts which had no direct applicability, it would simply be the pass time of a select few eccentrics. However science has profound applications that permeate Western culture, and that`s a desirable thing to have in Islamic ones too - and who better to guide it than Muslims and consistant with their own cultural context. I don`t think science is ``Western`` and in order to practice it, a prerequsite is to ``Westernize``. Certainly, there are many dead ends and false starts along the Islamization ``path``. however I think at some level it needs to be done.

``The theologians invariably fail to reach a consensus on any religious issue in which they believe they`re the ultimate authority, how will they reach any agreement on scientific issues of which they don`t know any thing.``

Mr. Gill...please...there IS objectivity in science in terms of empirical results, and verifiable statements. SOME in the Islamization crowed may think otherwise, most probably don`t.

``What is the objective anyhow?``

The spread and ownership of the pursuit of science within Islamic societies...the argument being that ``secular`` approaches are too alien and foreign and hence the source of Muslim ambivalence towards the sciences. That may or may not be true, however that is the operating thesis and the impetus towards ``Islamization``. The idea is to push a pro-science agenda by recasting it in traditional terms, and hence making it a part of the religio-cultural discourse which dominates. To some, the fantasy is to have Mullah`s switch between talking about rituals and differential equations. Not in the same breath, nor even to draw the link between the two, but to have these concepts seem near and familiar to us as religous ones.

That`s it so far...at a high level it makes sense, however there are clear issues as to the consequences of this approach, or even the validity of the premise. However, I personally don`t see a danger of some trying to ``Islamizing`` e=mc^2 or the scientific method in general...I don`t think that`s a goal...

What I find disturbing is the idea of bringing science under the control of a select group of ``religious`` scholars, and how the practice of science should somehow be done by the guidance of some kind of elitist ideology, rather than on practical need or simply for the sake of learning (well, we could argue Science conducted under the military is even worse). I also think the Islamization crowed is getting confused between science and technology (crudely, the application of science)...but then I`ve also seen the advocating of the ``ideal`` of having religious scholars and scientists being equivalent as well...

``Science is best if it is left alone and not tampered with by the non-scientists.``

Tell that to the business leaders and politicians, who pretty much have the final word in what gets researched or not. This is not the 1700`s where one can do ``science`` in their study...not for the most part at least. It`s an expensive enterprise, whether we`re talking about the supercollider or NASA. What gets funding is what is deemed relevant. Or tell that to the citizenry who are allegedly so against stem-cell research. Science exists and is perused in the context of society at largea and society will only support it and foster it if they think it`s useful...you can`t divorce the two. That may be ideal, but that`s not realistic.


``The Muslim world is really backward in science. There are no modern scientific traditions in the Muslim world and there is no respectable science culture in it. ``

And so your answer is to simply dismiss what is perhaps the only real effort in fostering a tradition in the Muslim world? Or are you saying there is no real ``tradition`` per sae, but rather a set of results that define what science is? Or are you saying that there is only one possible tradition, and that`s exactly what we have in the West?


``Islamization of science is not a fundamental issue as I see it; dissemination and development of science in the Muslim world is fundamental.``

The way I see it, the two are the one and the same...