Documenting the Pain of 1984

kaalchakra #70 True, but something can yet be salvaged of this discussion through a dialogue on the general nature of secularism in India and the challenges it faces.

re:#69 by GuruJee
``Gujarat saw a massacre of thousands of innocent people of faith yet nobody raised a voice over it.``

A lot of pseudo-secularist raised voices but still Modi was able to win the assembly elections.

``Nobody dared to place any sanctions over the WLD for this wanton act of genocide! ``

You should complain to those people/countries then.

``Had it been any other country or people being massacred of the largest faith on earth, hell would have broken lose!``

Since Gujarat riots, there are more Muslims killed in Shia-Sunni riots in Pakistan than Hindu-Muslim riots in India. Also, more Muslims were killed by militants in Kashmir too.

` Thousands sleep on streets in Mumbai or whatever its latest name is in abjure poverty yet the WLD has the gall to spend billions of dollars on the the state of the art weoponary``

Wasn`t Bhutto ready to make Pakis eat grass in order to fight 1000 year war with India. Inspite of spending billions it is still less compared to what Pak spends on its military (as a % of GDP). Out of those thousands a significant of them are illegal Bangladeshi muslims.

``its hard to keep track of names of cities which keep changing with whatever fundamantalist party in power``

That speaks your knowledge about current affairs. The name for Bombay was changed only once. Mumbai being the original name of the group of Islands. Henceforth, you will be renamed as ``ChellaJee``

``A large segment of population cannot even access clean water!``

But more people are able to access it compared to a decade back. Rome was not built in a day.

Ref nikki7777 #15

[Remember the jacka$$ who said ``when big tree falls, grass gets killed`` or some sh!t like that? Well, he died like a d0g, blasted to bits by the tamils. That`s the way god`s justice works ... sometimes.]

That son of a female dog was blasted to bits by a SRI LANKAN Tamil, not by one of those like you who live/lived in the reality distortion field called Tamil Nadu in India.

Start showing kinship with the Sri Lankan Tamils and let us all hope for a Greater Tamil Nadu in or out of the Indian Union. Veluppillai Pirabakaran would lose no time in getting rid of trash such as Elder Son of Mother Tamil-Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion, his son Stalin, his grand-nephew Fund of Compassion Jr., Marutthuvar Ayya (``Doctor Master`` -- this guy actually has a name, Ramdas, and has an MBBS unlike Karunanidhi), Doctor Chinna Ayya (Maruthuvar Ayya`s son and hence called ``Little Master``, also armed with an MBBS which, thankfully for the people, he has not put to use) or his greatest champion in Tamil Nadu today who hopes to ride that to victory in the polls -- namely Vaiko. And yes, that mass of rolling flesh known as Jayalaitha would rival the beached whale in Oregon when she is blown to bits by the LTTE.

[................Yup. Never mess with the Tamils.We speak softly but carry a big stick.]

In your dreams, fcuker. Most of you would pour kerosene over your wives over a family disagreement and set them on fire, that is those of you who are strong. The weaker ones pour kerosene on themselves and set themselves on fire. Thank God for such persons not contributing to the gene pool.
[
It is a pity the other tribes in the sub-continent have not emulated the tamils in securing their rights within the indian union.]

``Murasoli Maran and his son Fund of Compassion Jr., extoring a free fiber cable out of Reliance Telecom for their cable TV empire in Tamil Nadu and in return winking at Reliance`s swindling of BSNL out of Rs. 3 billion is NOT securing the rights of any minority tribe, unless the tribe consists solely of the family of Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion.

Supposedly this article was about anti-Sikh mass murder of 1984. Yet the discussion following it has been hijacked by the raconteurs of Muslim problems in India. The author deliberately the set the stage for this travesty.

What problems of India can these old-fashioned Indian secularists solve? They are blind by choice.

re: Romair # 60

``To me, there is no difference between ethnic and religious riots. A Sindhi killing a Baluchi is as bad as a Muslim killing a Hindu or vice-versa. I have now realized that in India, religious deaths are considered worse than ethnic ones. I do not accept that difference, however. A dead person is a dead person. Ethnic and religious riots are equally bad.``

We should express how a Hindu feels about this statement. Most Hindus would think that your individual sentiments reflect neither Pakistani nor Islamic judgement.

In our view, the basic premise of Pakistani nation is that ethnicity should not be as divisive as religion. We believe that the God of Islam sees no difference between an Arab and a non Arab, but creates huge differences between a Muslim, a person of the book, and any other person who chooses to be neither a Muslim nor a person of any semitic book.

Again, your own individual interpretations are noble, but objective facts do not support the view that the fundamental ideologies of Islam and Pakistan treat ethnicity and religion at par.

#38 by dost-mittar

“And shame on anyone who criticises India`s record on its treatment of minorities without mentioning the unimaginable feat of having the position of its head of state, its executive head, the most powerful politician and the chief of the army staff all belonging to religious minorities.”

I think the best course is to examine the “unimaginable feat” as all (including the RSS Brigade) are pushing it down on everybody’s throat as a singular achievement of Secularism in India.

Before I get into the Nitty-gritty of this claim, I must acknowledge that Amit and DM in their several posts have taken an objective and realist view of the ground situation in India and have already elaborated on the deficiencies in the Indian political system.
My attempt is to show that the above “unimaginable feat” may be short-lived and may be the last hurrah for secularism in India.

Since 1989, when India was already in the grip of several political crises due to failed economic conditions, the RSS and BJP decided to take advantage of the failed economy and political system to launch their campaign to undo the most important pillar of the Indian society-Secularism.
The partition placed an enormous burden on the Indian society to cope with not only the loss of parts of the country but also a substantial Muslims population that presumably actively participated in the dismemberment of India.

I am an admirer of Gandhi Ji and Pundit Nehru for doing what they could to continue with their idealism and pursued policies that were in conformity with Congress ideals and Indian constitution. The Congress also decided to follow the socialist model for economic progress. Socialism was partially successful in Soviet Union due to the dictatorial nature of the state but in Indian democratic polity, it failed miserably. Economic failure also put strains on the secularism as lack of economic opportunity made people suspicious of different competing groups in the country. India ran into several political crises from the early 70s. From emergency to urine drinking by its PM and then assassination of a PM destroyed people confidence in the state and the system. The country that was already in an economic mess also fell into a moral mess when majority decided to punish a loyal and fully contributing sikh minority for the acts of a few.

With fragile coalitions on the top and several regional and internal threats looming large, many state institutions and ideals suffered. Secularism was the clear victim of lost focus, economic and political failure, and petty politicking at the top. In the late 80s, the failure was so complete that a fringe religio-political party RSS/BJP, that had been attacking the secularism from its very inception in different guises, stepped up its attacks on the secularism and claimed that the congress is busy in appeasing Muslims for election gains and ignoring the majority Hindu community. These charges had lots of mileage in the majority community that already was embarrassed by the loss of National pride and was looking for the scapegoats. The RSS/BJP or the Sangh parivar designed several political events like the Rath yatra and demolition of a mosque to appeal to Hindu pride and within six years, the RSS transformed from a small fringe party to the majority party, thus changing the Indian politics for good.

The RSS has never hidden its agenda to do away with Secularism and its six years rule in India, it made sure that communal divide of the Indian society is complete. It ensured that Indian foreign affair and territorial issues should be looked as communal issues and it systematically increased the hatred against the different religions and lower caste.
The attacks on Muslims, Dalits and Christians increased and in almost all cases, the RSS/BJP found ways to place the blame on the minority community. From frantic rhetoric against the conversions to Christianity, to supporting Hindu retaliation against Muslims, to communalizing the Kashmir issue, the RSS has ensured that Communalism is on top of any political program in India.
The RSS is still the second largest party in India, very few seats separate it from the majority, and a small mistake by the current coalition can bring the RSS back in power.
There is a strong possibility that if the RSS comes back in power with enough majority in next round of elections, it will do away with Secularism immediately.
(An article by Dipak Basu on RSS.org is an eye-opener.)
The victory of the current coalition in India is also a result of communal politics as the Congress mobilized Muslims, Dalit and Christians by subtle appeals to their religious sentiments.
The congress by appointing minority persons to the top posts is also attempting to solidify its support with the minority communities thus giving soft support to the communal politics. If the Congress coalition fails, who would be blamed for that failure?

The “unimaginable feat”, may turn out to be a recipe for disaster for secularism/Minorities in the near future.

An RSS connection on Chowk:
See the reference to Bihar connection in both.

Mockery of justice – By Ram Madhav Spokesman, RSS ww.RSS.org

“The report of this so-called commission is theatre enacted for political mileage to the ruling party in the ensuing Bihar elections. That is not even a major issue because it is for the Muslims of that State to decide how long and how many times would they like themselves to be befooled by pseudo-secular lumpens.”

#52 by sadna

“Retired Justice Banerjee was appointed by Railways Minister Laloo Prasad Yadav and his interim report also passes severe strictures against the former Railways Minister Nitish Kumar. Nitish Kumar and Laloo Yadav are both stakeholders in next month`s Bihar`s elections. Bihar has a 24% Muslim electorate.

Romair, since you are going all holier than thou now, who brought up the India Pakistan comparison first in #26?Even the genius urstruly did not mention Pakistan. Why could not a problem with India be discussed without mentioning Pakistan? When you compare, you are bound to have the reasons for that investigated.Why the whining?

re: #61 by Romair

Romair,
You are right in your contention that in Pakistan there are riots based along ethnic lines. There are no reports of riots against Hindus in Pakistan that I have come across. There are varoius reasons for that. Hindus are =<1% of the populaiton, they are even lesser than Christains. They are confined in rural Sindh and mostly work as bonded labour/sweepers. I don`t think there is any reason for them to have a conflict of interest with the muslims. They are not organised politically and it would not even matter much as the populaiton is too small and is dwindling. Just to explain it based on Indian context. Muslims constitute 1-2% and 4-5% populaiton of the indian states of Punjab and Haryana whereas there population in U.P. and Bihar stands at around 20%, in Mumbai should be around 15%. Still I have never heard of riots against them in Punjab and Haryana, whereas there were bloody riots in U.P, BIhar, Mumbai. Religious riots in India are only between Hindus and Muslims. Also, riots in India doesn`t mean hindus are the instigators. Many such riots were instigated and carried out by Muslims. I had to think twicw before going to a Muslim dominated areas in Mumbai even during normal times. Also, in India too there were riots based on ethnic backgrounds. In 60-70`s the Shiv Sainiks rioted against the U.Pites, Gujaratis and the Southerners in Mumbai. Just recently many Biharis were beaten up in Mumbai whereas in Assam the Biharis and the Assamese rioted killing several people. The anti-HIndi agitation in Tamil Nad was against North Indians. Thankfully people have come to their senses and we hope such things don`t repeat.
BTW did you read about a recent news where Pakistani Hindus who came several decades back refused to go back to Pakistan fearing persecution on religious grounds. I think recently some of them have been granted Indian citizenship. I wonder how many Indian Muslims run away to get Pakistani citizenship. Exception: Dawood Ibrahim.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2642209.stm
http://in.news.yahoo.com/041124/139/2i2sv.html
And these links are not from bjp.org :)

re:#61 by Romair

``They make these grand claims about Pakistan. And when one challenges them on it, they have nothign to back it up with. Yet they keep making claims.``

It has been my experience with you that its you who plays ``hit and run``, I have tried to chase you a few times but to no avail.

``There is more to Pakistan than what is shown in Bollywood and in the Indian Times and on www.bjp.org......... ``

This is another example, I had replied to you regarding Bollywood movies/Mass Media, still you keep on dragging it in your posts everytime. That reminds me of a Bollywood movie which is critical of Indian stand on Punjab terrorism, its Maachis. Just FYI.

I hope to get more replies from you before you do the vanishing act.

Romair,

Absolutely agree with you. I haven`t seen as arrogant people as our Eastern Neighbours. They are simply just too proud of themselves... for whatever reason. They have huge problems as shown in this article but they are conveniently forgotten coutesy of the conniving media. Gujarat saw a massacre of thousands of innocent people of faith yet nobody raised a voice over it. Why? Because the so-called ``World`s Largest Democracy`` (W.L.D.) has a carte blanche to even commit massacre! Why wasn`t lot of hue and cry raised over Gujarat as is being raised over Sudan? Nobody dared to place any sanctions over the WLD for this wanton act of genocide! Had it been any other country or people being massacred of the largest faith on earth, hell would have broken lose! Thousands sleep on streets in Mumbai or whatever its latest name is (its hard to keep track of names of cities which keep changing with whatever fundamantalist party in power) in abjure poverty yet the WLD has the gall to spend billions of dollars on the the state of the art weoponary. A large segment of population cannot even access clean water! Yet they never get tired of beating their cheasts of being the ``Greatest Country on Earth`` . One can only bang its head on wall at thier antics!

Romair:
``When I challenged him to prove me wrong. He could not do so. He could only point me to someone saying that Bengalis were half-Hindus and to someone who told him that the Pakistani Army uses Sikh dummies for target-practice.``

You conveniently forgot my reference to the H. Rehman report which pointed out that written orders were given to Pak army soldiers to kill and rape hindus.

I have written several times on the issue of minorities in India without bringing Pakistan into the picture, because I do not think that the comparison is relevant. You said that while Indian govt. sponsors pogroms against religious minorities, Pakistan`s record is squeaky clean in this respect. I do not know about anyone else but, to me, this sounded like comparison. As regards my sources of informattion, I do not live in either India or Pakistan; my sources of information on India are international and Indian media, just as for Pakistan it is international and Pakistani media (and now increasingly chowk). So, if my information is wrong, you know who to blame. As regards the hindus` laisssez faire attitude towards religion, I clarified what I meant, no backtracking [when I backtrack, I`ll say so].

Enuff said. I would like to get back to the topic of this article. I am of the firm opinion that communal riots in India can be easily started but for them to become serious, it cannot happen without active or passive role played by the police, which in turn cannot happen without the state government looking the other way. The proof lies in Bihar under Lalo Yadav. By any criterion, it is the perhaps the worst governed state in India, including lawlessness and crime. Yet, its record on communal front is squeaky clean because Lalo has made it known that he will not tolerate anti-minority activities, ever since he stopped Advani from entering Bihar during his Ayodhya raatra.

This is the problem I have with so many of our Indian posters here. They make these grand claims about Pakistan. And when one challenges them on it, they have nothign to back it up with. Yet they keep making claims. They are bent upon a one-upsmanship contest with Pakistan. I don`t know why..........

It is not beneficial to hide one`s own problems by stating that the other is worse. Specfically if one cannot exactly highlight where the other is worse. He just is worse, seems to the argument........

Dost-mittar commented about lazze-faire reliigon in India, and how it is less religious than Pakistan. When I pointed him to a Pew research report, indicating that India is more religious than Pakistan, he quickly pointed out that he actually did not mean what he had originally stated. Then when I stated that Pakistan`s fault lines for riots are not along religious lines, but ethnic lines, he went bonkers (according to his own admission). When I challenged him to prove me wrong. He could not do so. He could only point me to someone saying that Bengalis were half-Hindus and to someone who told him that the Pakistani Army uses Sikh dummies for target-practice.

Vereesh made bold statements about lack of Christians in Pakistan. When I showed him statistics indicating that there were percentage-wise equal or more Christians in Pakistan, than in India, he stated, that the perception was more important than the fact!! Now he has come up with a new piece of information that the reason that we do not know of govt. sponsored religious pogroms in Pakistan, is because the press does not report them. The press reports everything from honor killings to the number of people killed in Waziristan to the detials of the violence between MQM and Sindhis. But it can hide religious pogroms, all together!!! Amazing...........

There is nothing wrong with highlighting problems in other countries. But at least, base it on fact. Not on a factless contest of one-upmanship. I have gotten tired of asking our Indian colleagues to point me to religous pogroms from the govt. or community based, in Pakistan. I am actually asking this for my own information. They have told me stories of everything else in the book on the history of Pakistan. But they are unwilling to point me to any such pogroms.........Kindly point me to them so I can increase my own knowledge.........And if you cannot, then accept it as a fact that what I am saying is correct........Instead of bending over backwards, trying to fabricate information, through trying to find some sort of heresay justifications about them..........

There is more to Pakistan than what is shown in Bollywood and in the Indian Times and on www.bjp.org.........

``The main point is that the hindu community has been silenced into submission in Pakistan and Bangladesh. ``

You have moved the discussion on riots to a contest between India and Pakistan. Specifically related to Hindus. India/Pakistan contests are useless. As I said I don`t know which country has happier minorities. Neither do you. So kindly stop presenting the fact that you do know. To the best of my knowledge you are not a minority in India, and you are definitely not a minority in Pakistan. Ditto for me. I don`t know either, so I am not going to make any such claim on who is better off.

You will need to talk to the minorities themselves, and find out. Unless you have already done so, your jumping to conclusions is more emotionalism than anything else.

Let us discuss it separately, without useless contests. Let us take Pakistan, first......
My own great-great-great...grand-dad was a Hindu. I don`t know how he ended up being a Muslim. Maybe forced, maybe volunteered. I don`t know.

What we do know are the facts on larger issues. Some you have presented, on the statistics of Hindus in Pakistan. They are almost non-existent. This is true. A fact. I had only met two Hindus in my whole life in Pakistan. And that only briefly. This is a fact.

Their religious places are not looked after, in Pakistan, in areas where they have no population. This is a fact also. This is more due to neglect than a targeted action by the govt. Ironically, the Sikh religious places are looked after extremely well.

The third fact is that the govt. in Pakistan has not targeted Hindus in any govt.-sponsored riots. It has targeted ethnicities, but not religions. This is a fact, also. Neither have there been large scale community based riots against Hindus, or other religious minorities in Pakistan (once again, kindly do not get defensive and turn this into a contest. we are just discussing Pakistan).

These are the facts that we know about Hindus in Pakistan. Let us deduce things from this.

``A Pakistani mentioned at chowk that the Pakistani army practices with bayonets pointed at sikh dummies.``

I went through a lot of this training. I don`t remember anything like this. Could you point me to the resource? Sikhs are actually very popular in Pakistan. They get VIP treatment when they visit. Their religious areas, some which I have visited, are looked after very well.

Just out of curiosity, did anyone, army or otherwise, point a bayonet at you when you visited Pakistan. How were you treated, as a Hindu in Pakistan? How were other Indian visitors treated? You may want to start giving your personal experience more importance than what the media and govt. and film stories about Pakistan that are told.........

dost-mittar #48: ``I do not like to compare the situation of the minorities in India and Pakistan. The two countries have different ethos, different foundations, different ideologies, different constitutions.``

No one was making a comparison. This article is related to minority rights in India. Hence the discussion will be on that subject. There will be comments from all sides on that subject. What I have noticed is that Indians are very sensitive to commentary from Pakistan. So everytime I cirtique something in India, I try to make it a point to critique something in Pakistan, also, so that our Indian colleagues do not get offended.

So when I pointed out that there are religious fault lines for riots in India (whcih is what this article is about), I added that there are ethnic fault lines for riots in Pakistan, just to ensure our Indian colleagues would not, ``go bonkers.`` Apparently, that wasn`t good enough.

To me, there is no difference between ethnic and religious riots. A Sindhi killing a Baluchi is as bad as a Muslim killing a Hindu or vice-versa. I have now realized that in India, religious deaths are considered worse than ethnic ones. I do not accept that difference, however. A dead person is a dead person. Ethnic and religious riots are equally bad.

``But I am not prepared to accept anyone favourably comparing Pakistan`s treatment of its hindus with that of India`s treatment of its Muslims, which is what you were so arrogantly doing.``

I was not doing that. And I have no idea where you got this from. I think, Indians get too defensive. All I said was that the riots in two countries are on different fault lines. Thats it. Which you have not countered either. I don`t know whether the treatment of minorities in India is better than in Pakistan. Frankly speaking, neither do you. Neither of us knows the other country well enough. Much less the minorities of other countries. And neither of us is a minority in the own country.

Indians claim to have a lot of knowledge on Pakistan. Much of it, I have discovered is govt-sponsored and media based falsities. And I have always attempted to correct these biases. As long as I am pointing out facts, there is nothing you can complain about. As an example, you had just made a comment on how lassie-faire and less religious India was in comparison to Pakstan. I pointed you to Pew Research showing Indians are more religious than Pakistan. Vereesh had mentioned the small number of Christians in Pakistan. I pointed him to statistics showing that, percentage wise there may actually be more Christians in Pakistan than in India.

You would have to ask the minorities in each country to get a good idea. If India minorities say they are treated better than they are in Pakistan, then by all mean, that is the case. You should discuss this with PM, Ijaz Gul, ana etc. I accept what they say.

In a sense though, you are the one making the arrogant comment. Since you have automatically assumed that minorities in India are better off. I made no such comaprison. Maybe they are. Maybe they aren`t. You would have to sit them down and compare notes......

If Ijaz_Gul, PM etc. say Christians are better off in India. Who am I to complain. I accept it. And I will accept it from all minorities in Pakistan, including Hindus, Parsis, etc. I do, however, have difficulty accepting it from our Indian colleagues, when they just make blanket statements.......And you should not accept it from Pakistanis either. However, I never said minorities are better of in Pakistan. You are the one who keeps sayign they are better off in India......

I don`t know. But that doesn`t mean one should get emotional and start fuming at the ears........

amit#57

The initial mass migration did not affect Bengal and Sindh (even Baluchistan) as much as it did Panjab and NWFP. I believe that even in 1950 there were quite a few districts in East Pakistan and Sindh which had a Hindu majority, and some may still do. I recall seeing a figure of 20-25% for East Pakistan as late as 1960. I do not know the exact percentage in Sindh but it was quite significant. Personal samples are always highly biased; still I know of two personal sindhi friends (I dont have too many) who had their sisters married to Sindhi hindus in Pakistan. Both of them have since migrated out of Pakistan citing difficult conditions they faced, not from Sindhis but from non-sindhis who have moved to Sindh. I am also aware that there is a steady stream of Hindu visitors from Sindh to Delhi who come as visitors and refuse to go back. Veeresh may know more about this.