Documenting the Pain of 1984

Re:dost-mittar#48

To be fair to Pakistan, the pre-partition population of Pakistan areas was around 30 million and 5-6 million were hindus i.e. 20% of population. Statistics show that nearly 5 million people migrated in either direction during 1947. So a reasonable conclusion is that the vast majority of hindus in Pakistan migrated to India around 1947. There is no evidence of any further genocide or mass conversion beyond what took place in 1947.

Having said that, the record of the Pakistani society in general is very poor when it comes to religious tolerance. However, of late, I have heard that at least in Sindh, the local muslims wish the hindus were back, because the hindus were replaced by the Mohajirs with whom the Sindhis do not get along.

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sadna #52
``Bihar has a 24% Muslim electorate. ``

Correction : Bihar electorate is approx 16% Muslim.

Expert views on the Godhra burning:
http://www.hindu.com/2005/01/18/stories/2005011806461100.htm

which talk of `the smoke before fire` evidence, the `inflammable liquid on the floor` theory and the `burning rag thrown into coach by the mob outside` theory. This is how a report should be prepared to be credible - with thoroughness, not in a half-assed politically-motivated manner.

temporal #19 sadna #27 sadna #37
Since temporal passed a `snide` comment about what I posted and will not back it up, here is my post which he was talking of from Khamosh Pani thread on Dec 20. I was not inferring anything and any `inference` that a reader sees is the result of the reader`s own prejudice.

I said here:
http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00004461&
channel=gulberg&start=140&end=149&page=15&chapter=2&order=0#132

``I have also never seen sufficient context being provided for the incident by the press in a thoughtful or meaningful way, except in bits and pieces.

Such as,
-how frequently did trains of activists headed to and from Ayodhya generally pass through.

-On this route as well others, were disturbances at intermediate stations in UP, MP, Raj, Guj the norm. What were major and minor previous incidents previously provoked by those on the trains and off them(including bomb blasts on the Gomti express in previous years in the vicinity of Lucknow).

-Did any journalist go up and down these routes/stations and enquire from the general public or the police about what generally happened when these trains passed through?

-What do locals think was the particular provocation that day in Godhra?

-Why do they think some of the locals decided to go so far as to set fire to a bogey with people inside?

-Or do Godhra residents in general believe that no Godhra resident was involved in the fire and the government`s case against some Godhra residents is false?

-If they do, do they believe this because they have some basis to think it is the honest truth or do they believe this because Gujarat is so communally polarized that people believe only their own version of the truth?

-What are the socio-economic conditions in which the Godhra accused lived? ``


(end quote)

I did not add at the time because I assumed Dilip DSouza already knew(being a journalist and all) the following additional context:

The incident happened on Feb 27th. It is now known that a few days before there were reports in a Hindi newspaper in UP about Ayodhya karsevaks on trains harrassing and beating up Muslim men and women at various stations in UP(some of those attacked had to be hospitalized).

It is also a fact that in Feb 2000, 14 were hurt in a bomb blast on the Delhi-Lucknow Gomti Express. In August 2000, 9 were killed in a bomb blast on the same Sabarmati Express.

On one side, it is clear from the forensic report and eyewitness accounts that after a altercation on the platform at Godhra, that the S-6 coach was stoned heavily from outside. And no one has explained whether and why S-6 in particular was stoned. No one has reconstructed the events with sufficient clarity nor asked Godhra residents/Muslims on the scene why they think the coach was being stoned.

Godhra did not happen in a vacuum. It is the job of journalists to make all possible relevant information available to their readers. Those `activist` journalists like DSouza who genuinely believed that Godhra Muslims were innocent should have uncovered information about mayhem that karsevaks perpetuated at other stations in the period preceding the Godhra train burning. They should have made efforts to report what was Godhra Muslims` version of the incident. The local Muslims deserved their day in the press which I consider they did not get. I made this clear in my post above and other posts on that thread.

--
I will also add that it is not a court which has pronounced that the Godhra train fire was an accident, it is a commission headed by retired Supreme Court judge Banerjee which has done so in an interim report(the commission`s term ends in March).

Retired Justice Banerjee was appointed by Railways Minister Laloo Prasad Yadav and his interim report also passes severe strictures against the former Railways Minister Nitish Kumar. Nitish Kumar and Laloo Yadav are both stakeholders in next month`s Bihar`s elections. Bihar has a 24% Muslim electorate.

Nothing wrong with all this, this does not invalidate the interim report. On the contrary, this is legitimate party democracy at work when the opposition outs the ruling party`s misdeeds and vice versa to win elections.

What I think about the Banerjee interim report from what is reported about it in the press:

1) that there is political bias in the timing of its release

2) that it does not provide positive corroboration for its claim of `accident` and the commission needs to work harder to provide corroboration, given the importance of the matter

3) that however politically motivated, I welcome the report`s condemnation of Western Railways for a lack of sufficient inquiry into the incident. Nitish Kumar was indeed a negligent and politically motivated Railways Minister if he violated the Railways own statutes on such inquiries as the report accuses.

4) the report bases its conclusions based on Gujarat state`s own government forensic lab reports -
a) first that the fire started inside the carriage, prob. by inflammable liquid.
b) second that there was no evidence of petrochemicals, so no inflammable liquids

and on Nanavati commission depositions by surviving S-6 passengers that they did not see anyone climb into the coach and spill any liquid. But the commission has not sat down with other investigation agencies nor tried to rationalise its conclusions with theirs.

5) That the commission has not asked why the coach was being stoned nor reconstructed events preceding the fire in sufficient detail. If it was a cooking fire, there would be evidence, a stove, petrochemical residue, witnesses, something. Let such evidence be looked for and found.

Seems like this board has shifted into ind-pak thing. Before all discussion of the 1984 riots is stopped for the sake of namecalling, I would like to mention that the 1984 riots cannot be compared with any other riots. It was not a spur of the moment riot, but rather a well planned ones who thought that commiting murder would bring them closer to the Gandhis and they would be awarded.

apologies for digressing away from the topic..

mohar11: #25

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nikki
//...Never mess with the Tamils.We speak softly but carry a big stick.Only nature can have one better over us.....//

Right now, the fat lady is getting better of you. And she is not even a Tamil :) Neither are a bunch of other ``leaders`` you guys swoon over. Not that it matters. But let`s not get too nationalistic here - ok nikki boy???

---

It`s a wrong assumption to say Jayalalitha is not a tamil. She is born in Mysore into a tamil family and other leaders are tamils too..

+++

//...It is a pity the other tribes in the sub-continent have not emulated the tamils in securing their rights within the indian union...//

Bullsh!t. If at all, the ``tribes`` have a little too much rights. Each of the states need some good whacks in the rear to get them into shape. That should start with bihar, of course.

--

don`t know if ``tribes``is the right word... But democratically India is turning from a strong centre based country to a coalition of regional forces.. and that`s the way to go..

for the benefit of Romair`s Knowledge

http://www.webcom.com/hrin/parker/ahmadi.html

RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION IN PAKISTAN: THE AHMADI CASE AT THE SUPREME COURT

A Commentary by Karen Parker, J.D.
for International Educational Development
Humanitarian Law Project
A Non-governmental organization at the United Nations

http://www.thepersecution.org/case/case004.html

Violent mob attacks Ahmadiyya Mosque, sets it on fire after destroying it.

SHEKHUPURA - Police officials are standing alert outside a burned worship place of Ahmadis, destroyed by the villagers.Sayyedwala: Sunday August 26, 2001: An Ahmadiyya Mosque in town Sayyedwala, District Sheikhupura, about 100 Km west of Lahore, was attacked and destroyed by a violent mob of Hundreds of Orthodox Muslims. The incident occurred during the evening when Ahmadis were watching the live Satellite transmission of their annual convention held in Germany. The mob surrounded the two houses where Ahmadis gathered and started chanting anti-Ahmadiyya slogans full of abuses. Soon some of them headed toward the Ahmadiyya Mosque, ransacked and destroyed it completely, and set it on fire.

Instead of providing protection to small number of Ahmadis in town, police locked them up in the name of protective custody and did nothing to disperse the mob.

The situation remained tense for two days before returning to so-called normal but Ahmadis of Sayyedwala are still under great stress and fear. It is still unclear if a case has been registered or not against the attackers or the mullahs who instigated the mob.

Excerpts from media about the incident are reproduced below:
BBC Online News - Religious clash in Pakistani town
Daily Dawn - Ahamdis` place of worship set on fire
Daily Dawn - Punjab Constabulary deployed in Syedwala: Attack on Ahmadis
Daily Dawn - Mazdak - Another day, another atrocity by Syed Irfan Husain
Daily Dawn - Features - Appeasing the fanatics by Lahori
Daily Dawn - Letters to the Editor - Syedwala incident: role of the police


http://www.thepersecution.org/hrcp/hrcp03.html

http://www.ichrdd.ca/english/commdoc/publications/demDev/pakistan/pakistanddeng7.html

http://www.hrcp-web.org/Curfew_Gilgit.cfm

Romair#44:

``The point I was making - a factual point, mind you - was that the riots in Pakistan are ethnic and not religious.``

This seems to be true for recent past, despite what Veeresh said. Pakistani media is now free enough that any riot cannot remain hidden, the attempt to possess a temple land in Peshawar was fairly well covered.

But it wasn`t always so. Please read Hamoodur Rehman report which says that even written orders were given to kill and rape the hindus (something that has not been alleged in case of even Gujarat riots) and part of the ethnic hatred against bengalis was that they were considered to be `aadha hindus`. A Pakistani mentioned at chowk that the Pakistani army practices with bayonets pointed at sikh dummies.

The main point is that the hindu community has been silenced into submission in Pakistan and Bangladesh. One babri masjid was demolished in India and the reverberations are felt even today; in retaliation hundreds of hindu temples were destroyed in Pakistan and Bangladesh and the only voice of protest came from some sympathetic muslims. Two years ago, there were some riots against Hindus in Bangladesh. The Hindus protested. How? They ``threatened`` to cancel their pooja celebrations. I am glad that India`s Muslims did not threaten to stop offering Friday prayers in protest against the atrocities committed in Gujarat. This is the kind of difference I am trying to point out - between a vibrant and assertive community and one that has been beaten into submission. It doesn`t behoove people to boast of peace obtained through such submission.

Romair#44:

It was my reply and I did go bonkers. I regret the language used. I am no apologist for India`s shameful record of not protecting her minorities and I made that point quite clear even in that ``bonkered`` post.

I do not like to compare the situation of the minorities in India and Pakistan. The two countries have different ethos, different foundations, different ideologies, different constitutions. India`s treatment of its minorities has to be judged by its own constitution, not by what happens in any other country. Unlike India which claims to be secular, Hindus were never promised a rose garden in Pakistan. But I am not prepared to accept anyone favourably comparing Pakistan`s treatment of its hindus with that of India`s treatment of its Muslims, which is what you were so arrogantly doing. Because, as they say in our language, ``mera munh naa hi khulwao tau achha hai``.

Naa raha baans, na rahi baansuri! There is a small number of jews living in Germany and other East European countries and there is never any riot against them either. The same is the situation of hindus and sikhs in Pakistan.

Hindus in Pakistan are dead, finished, kaput and are steadily reaching that fate in Banglades now. As a community, not as individuals. There still must be over two million of them in Pakistan, there are some even in Panjab, Balochistan and NWFP. But when do you hear from them? Where do you read about their religious celebrations, their religious processions, their protest marches, their politial voices, their leaders complaining about anything in Pakistan, which you do at least from Pakistani christians and even parsis? Where do you hear their bhajans, their kathas, their stories, their characters on radio or television or even letters in the newspapers? Where are Pakistani Shahabudins, Imam Bukharis, Farzana Verseys, Zafar Anjums, Vertexes, Isphanis raising their voices to seek justice for themselves in Pakistan. Whatever little support they get is from the small but tireless band of the likes of Yasser Hamdani, and lately from the much maligned Musharraf. But Hindus themselves are invisible and ``goongay`` (voiceless). There was a rare article on chowk a few years ago about Pakistani Hindus, the title itself said it all [``Hidden Hindus`` by Shandana Minhas:http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00000918&channel=civic%20center&start=0&end=9&chapter=1&page=1]. BTW I do hear a lot of jews and about jews, always positive, on DeutchWelle (sp?) radio. When was the last time you read a Pakistani leader saying anything positive about hindus? Pakistani newspapers - even Pakistanis on chowk - don`t even bother to make a distinction between Indians and Hindus when abusing India or Indians, ignoring that too have their hindus. See the two opeds/news in Urdu posted at the Veeresh Malik thread.

What happened to those Hindus? I have been trying to Google and get at some stats. but have failed to get any. My educated guess is that, after the initial holocaust was over in 1947-48, the percentage of Hindus in Pakistan (east and west combined) was about the same as that of Muslims in India. If Hindus in Pakistan were treated reasonably, there should have been around 40 million of them in Pakistan and Bangladesh now, instead of around 15 million. What happened to others? Did they convert? Did they slowly migrate? Aasmaan kha gaya ya zameen nigal gayee? Has any Pakistani even asked this question?

You have made your reputation on chowk by constantly asking Amnesty International to investigate the human rights abuses in the Indian Kashmir. Why not start with the Kashmir you have? Why not ask them to find out what happened to the Hindus and Sikhs who were in that part of Kashmir? Recently, when there was talk of reestablishing bus service between the two divided parts of Kashmir, I got some idea of what happened. There are some Hindus on the Indian side who are eager to meet their old relatives in Kashmir - it came as no surprise to me that in each case, the relatives left on the Pakistani side are now Muslims. I frequently read about Hindus and Sikhs left in Pakistan who are now Muslims or Christians. I have yet to read a case- although some might exist - where a Muslim who stayed back in India had to convert to another religion.

The proof, my friend, is in the pudding and even if there is any hindu ingredient left in the Pakistani pudding, one cannot taste it. One has to look at the whole picture to be credible, not just point to some warts that you were doing in case of India. While I am mad as hell at the Indians in not protecting its minorities, Muslims in particular, I am glad that there are hundreds of Muslim organizations, thousands of Madrasas, Masjids, and more of them coming up every month, and they are in a position to scream at the top of their 150-million strong voices, rather than be subjugated to being a voiceless minority.

This is what I meant by my praising India in not trying to achieve the peace of the graveyard.

Re:Romair#45

I believe that riots are caused by the INABILITY of intolerant elements to get their way in the system. If the intolerant elements control the system, there is no reason to have riots because you can use the entire government machinery to systematically discriminate and overwhelm the people that you are against. When you cannot get that wish fullfilled, you resort to tactics like instigating riots, so that you can subvert the system and achieve your objectives. For example, before the Nazis had full control of Germany, they indulged in a lot of anti-jewish rioting. Once they got power, the rioting stopped and the concentration camps started.

The reason you see rioting in India is precisely because the intolerant elements, even those in the government, do not have a monopoly in the system. The anti-sikh riots were instigated in 1984, because the system in itself was not against sikhs. The instigators wanted to cause harm to the sikhs and hence they started the riots. The same phenomenon happens between hindus and muslims as well.

So when you do not see any rioting, it does not necessarily mean that your government or system is friendly to minorities. It may be so, but it could also be the other extreme, where there is so much one sided control of the entire system that you do not need to indulge in riots to get what you want. I leave you to judge where Pakistan stands in this context of tolerance towards minorities.

By the way, my comments were more relevant to the interacts of other Pakistanis like urstruly, labyrinth1, nangaparbat etc., who were trying to portray India as an intolerant nation. There is no denying that India has its intolerant elements, but on the whole our system works given the scale of heterogenity in our society.

Romair/45 - if you think the Bangladesh genocides were simply and only ethnicity based then it shows how much you as a representative of Pakistan`s elite are still in denial. Furthermore, the way I understand it, the Pakistani Government does not need to go after the minorities through riots, they simply use the Military and the Air Force.

Your question on the absence of documented records in the current era about riots by and against minorities in Pakistan, whether spontaneous or state sponsored, is best answered by the simple and similar example of Jews in Germany pre-WW-II. There weren`t too many documented riots and worse there either, not till well after the 2nd World War, so is it your contention that all was fine for the Jews then? Remember the fine residents of the towns next to the concentration camos, they weren`t aware either. Same goes for you, too, I would think.

Please, Romair, get real. Your knowledge apparently emanates from a background of believing everything put out by a spineless Pakistani media which would have its readers believe that all is just fine and dandy in not just Baluchistan and NWFP and Sindh for everybody but also in every other Muslim majority habitat in the world, while all the sins of our lifetimes are visited only on the heads of Muslims living as minorities elsewhere.

The ``best of your knowledge`` could do with some improvements. Maybe you too should get on a bus or a train and roam about your own country first. In Pakistan, you treat your own minorities as foreigners, and then give us lectures on ethnicities and religions? Shame on you.

dm/38 :- I think this article was more of a review of a movie than any sort of final statement on a terrible period in time. Yes, riots and genocides and pogroms and worse, these things occur. That is in no uncertain terms, bad, and we hope to fix things, however there are no overnight quickfixes.

Point I would wish you and others to appreciate is that in India we have the freedom to observe and report on them ipso-facto and then post-facto dissect them variously. Regardless of religion. Or ethincity. Please read the names in the credits for AMU carefully.

The other point I have to make is that there is increasing awareness of a simple fact within the larger Muslim community in India, and that is the truth that things are much worse for Muslims in Muslim majority countries. Suggested reading on this subject is ``Globalised Ummah: The Search for a New Ummah``, by Olivier Roy.

Amit #40: ``Hear, Hear!! Very well said. It is amazing that Pakistanis have the audacity to lecture us about tolerance.``

No one is lecturing you on anything. You are being overly defensive. The fault lines of riots in India and Pakistan are different. In Pakistan, it is ethnicity and in India it is religion. In Pakistan, the biggest riots have been Bengalis/West Pakistan (71), Baluchis/Rest of Pakstan 70s. Muhajirs/Pathans 80s, Muhajirs/Sindhis (same time), Pathans/govt (2004). All of these were ethnicity based.

To the best of my knowledge there have been no govt. sponsored or even major community based violent riots between the two major religious communities, i.e. Shias and Sunnis. Nor between the other religious communities.

There have been curtailing of legal rights of other religious communties, through things like Blasphemy laws/Ahmadi laws etc. But the govt. did not go after them through riots.

If you have any information to the contrary, kindly provide it here. If you don`t then kindly accept my information as fact............

dost-mittar #38: ````To the best of my knowledge, Pakistan has never had govt. supported religious riots, which resulted in deaths.....But Pakistan or Pakistanis? Give me a break....The day Pakistan achieves such a feat is the day you will have any right to criticise. Until then, SHUT UP! ?``

This does not look like one of your replies. If it is then I am afraid you are starting to go bonkers.

The point I was making - a factual point, mind you - was that the riots in Pakistan are ethnic and not religious. This is a fact. They are ethnic. If you disagree with this, kindly point to me to govt. support killings along religious lines. Or any massive community based violence along religious lines. You haven`t provided any references. Just yelled and screamed. You should know me better by now, and realize that I am oblivious to yelling and screaming. Too many of your country folk (and my country folk, also) have gone hoarse yelling and screaming at me, with no affect........

And no need to be so defensive. I have no interest in throwing mud on India. I don`t live there. Nor am I in the battle of winning points. If you say that Indian riots are not based on religious fault lines, then that is fine with me. Its India`s problem.

All I was doing was pointing out a simple fact describing the fault lines along which riots take place in both countries. Once again, if you disagree then do provide some references to disprove my point. From 71 till today (and even before) all major violent riots in Pakistan have been along ethnic lines...........

P.S. If this was your reply, then kindly do not use this kind of language with me, again. While I can ignore it from all your other country folk (and most of mine), I will not ignore it from you, since I expect you to know better. And will reply in the same language. So lets make this the last time from your side.....

If it is a Chowk error and not your reply then kindly disregard.......

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Re:dost-mittar#38

Hear, Hear!! Very well said. It is amazing that Pakistanis have the audacity to lecture us about tolerance. It is like a prostitute preaching about virtue. They have little or no tolerance in their society, even with 97% muslim population. Forget about hindus or sikhs, they cannot even get along with other muslims. First they threw out the Ahmedis out of Islam, calling them non-muslims. Now they are trying to repeat that with the Shias. So basically they are inventing new minorities out of the majority and then discriminating against them!!

On top of it, they have the second dimension of ethnic hatred against each other. Muhajirs, Sindhis, Pathans, Punjabis, Baloch, no one can tolerate the other. So you have a two dimensional matrix of hatred involving ethnicity and religious sectrainism. And they dare to point fingers at us?