If Godhra did not happen…

Sadhvi deposes before Godhra panel

PTI[ TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 22, 2005 07:29:01 PM ]

AHMEDABAD: A `sadhvi,` who had travelled on the Sabarmati Express, told the Nanavati commission that she had seen a violent crowd pelting stones after some youths in the train had a scuffle with a tea vendor at the Godhra Railway Station on February 27, 2002.

Narrating the incident, `sadhvi` told Justices GT Nanavati and K Shah that the train`s chain was pulled only because some of the youths were left behind at Godhra Railway platform following the stone-pelting.

However, after they had quickly boarded it back, the train did not move, sadhvi Meenakshi Devi told the panel.

According to the prosecution`s theory and the chargesheets framed by the Special Investigation Team (SIT), the chain was pulled by one of the `core group` members who were part of the conspiracy to torch the train.

Meenakshi, who was onboard on S-7, said that as soon as the stone-pelting began the passengers closed the doors and windows but could hear the commotion outside.

Later, two passengers came from the S-6 coach towards S-7 coach shouting the train was on fire, she said.

During cross-examination, she said she was not with the VHP and had gone to Ayodhya along with VHP members as they had said that anybody could go and need not even purchase the tickets.

Claiming to have taken the first pictures of the burning train, she alleged one of them had been ``tampered`` after a VHP leader had taken it for developing.

``When I requested them to return the negatives they only gave me three pictures, but I noticed that one of the photos was not taken by me and was indeed tampered,`` Meenakshi told the Commission.

Meenakshi said the VHP leader had come to her house along with a constable and a local journalist to return the camera and the photos.

(http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1028674.cms)

Let us see what is impossible about the Banerji report.

Why was the carriage locked from OUTSIDE?

How did fire-resistant materials burn?

How come the passengers couldn`t escape through the vestibule between carriages?

What WAS the mob doing outside the carriage?

Why was the train stopped at the outer signal?

And finally, how did the Muslim Tea Vendor`s daughter, allegedly kidnapped by the Hindu pilgrims, escape from the carriage? (Remember, this was trotted out as the excuse for the Muslim mob`s attack on the train). How come the stories keep changing?

Only if you show such sensitivity in handling communal issues??

FV:
Where does the constitution says that I do not have right to protect my religion. It gives me complete right to express my opinion and follow my religion. If you tell me that the religion I am practising is wrong that I have right to say that you are wrong and also tell you that your religion is sick.
You have a twisted view of secular democracy and constitution that serves only you and not me.
Before you start reading between the lines you need to read the lines also. Rather than disparaging RSS/VHP because they are a proponent of hindutva you should look at the good deeds they have done for Tsunami, Earthquake, Cyclone victims of India.
Also, what is the purpose of Muslim Personal Law it is there to protect the tradition of Islam. Thus, it is constitutional and a part of secular democracy to protect Dharma.

On another note...

Letter to the editor, The Asian Age (www.asianage.com), Feb 8:

Sir, Here was an opportunity for the All India Muslim Personal Law Board to show that it is genuinely concerned about a section within the community. Instead, it has displayed typical patriarchal insecurity (‘Women’s law board is a political gimmick,’ The Mumbai Age, February 5). Even as a gimmick, if the women’s board manages to raise a voice of dissent, it would have served an important purpose. That it is not a breakaway from the fossilised AIMPLB, should afford it a fresh perspective. Its members would certainly be more aware of the ``problems of Muslim women`` than some maulana. To save face, these men are now accusing politicians and anti-Muslim lobbies of dividing the community. One wonders how the creation of a forum to represent women can be seen as a ploy. It belittles the female point of view. Muslims have been used as a vote-bank for years. Why was the AIMPLB quiet about it? Have we not seen instances of disputes within the board itself? Disparate groups will in fact keep political lobbies in check because they will have to run in different directions to woo the varied streams of Muslim thought, male and female, that ought to exist in any democracy. For most Muslim women, this new board will provide the right direction. The only word of caution is that they should not end up as paper tigresses and seminarists looking for ``prominent`` feminists.

Farzana Versey, Bandra, Mumbai

- - -

Related news...

AIMPLB refuses to recognise Muslim Women`s Board
LUCKNOW, FEB 2 (PTI)
The All India Muslim Personal Law Board (AIMPLB) today refused to recognise the formation of an `All India Muslim Women`s Personal Law Board`, terming it as a ``joke``.

``It is nothing but a joke. We strongly condemn it and do not consider it worth a reaction``, senior AIMPLB member Maulana Sajjad Nomani told PTI here today.

``It seems to have become a fashion to form personal law boards by propagating some cause``, he said, adding ``everybody is free to form an organisation but no one is authorised to form personal law boards``.

A group of women formed the All India Muslim Women`s Personal Law Board yesterday alleging that the apex body of the community in the country had been ignoring the rights of Muslim women.

``The AIMPLB was formed for two specific purposes - to protect the Shariat Act and to create awareness among the Muslims to resolve their family disputes in accordance with the Shariat laws``, Nomani said.

``The AIMPLB cannot go beyond it``, he pointed out and said the board could not be drawn into every issue concerning different sects of the community.

The people who are forming separate boards in the name of resolving issues of their own community are not familiar with the AIMPLB Constitution, the Maulana claimed.

Referring to the newly constituted All India Shia Personal Law Board, Nomani said there were sharp differences even in the Shia community over formation of a separate board.

He, however, expressed confidence that the differences among different sects would be amicably resolved.

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=277148

Hindutva is wrong simply because there is no place for protecting one dharma in a secular democracy. Change the Constitution and make India a theocracy, then one will place any importance on RSS websites...incidentally, there are other interesting things on those websites and even more revealing things that are not stated there.

FV or any other who thinks Hindutva is wrong:
I am curious about your understanding of Hindutva and can you list me 5 points of Hindutva.
My understanding of RSS/VHP who are lead proponent of Hindutva.
1.) They want to unite hindus under one banner and stop discrimination among different caste.
2.) They are against christian/foreign missionaries who destroy the local culture.
3.) They are against ``separate but equal`` philosopy of Indian government. E.g. Separate civil code.
4.) They want to ban cow slaughter.
5.) They claim to be protector of Hindu Dharma.

Following is quote from RSS websites:
If we deny this plurality, we will cease to be Hindus.

#86 by ballukhan

A translation, please - if you don`t mind.

Re: # 84

dar-e-habiib bhii but-kadaa bhii kaabaa bhii
ye dekhanaa hai sukuu.N kahaa.N se milataa hai

talab na ho to kisii dar se kuchh nahii.n milataa
agar talab ho to dono.n jahaa.N se milataa hai

vahii.n chalo vahii.n ab ham bhii haath phailaaye.n
``Shamim`` saare jahaa.N ko jahaa.N se milataa hai

Re: # 84
//...quotes still do not reveal the writer’s support of jehadis...//

Let the readers be the judge of that :)

+++

//..I am anyway not providing any excuse, for I do stand by my statements..they are more nuanced than you would like to think..//

LOL - we all appreciate very much your stand. We know you won`t disappoint us. [god - is she for real???].

All the same, the irony is of your situation is so stark: On one hand you defend OBL with ``nunaced`` statements - and on the other, you accuse ``large educated`` hindus supporting Modi. I am sure those who defending Modi/Hindutva have claims to the similar excuses of ``nuances``. Either way - you folks are in the same boat - defending the indefensible.

+++

//I hope the other gentleman reads this quote carefully....You are suggesting that Hindutva is what happens when Hindus become a vote-bank ...///

I think - it`s other way around. Hindutva was promoted by BJP/RSS to bring hindus as vote bank. That`s the way I read it. Ballu sure can put his two cents on this.

[There is atleast one IM who has admiration for jihadists. After seeing your admiration for OBL and the fact that you have devised all sorts of theories to support his ideals - that`s the conclusion I can draw.
Thanks Ballu for exposing this person for what she is.]

Wonderful! Btw, “this person” writes under her own name and everything she has said on the subject is on an open forum, so there is no question of her being exposed. This game continues at regular intervals and it isn’t the first time excerpts have been posted. Those quotes still do not reveal the writer’s support of jehadis.

I am anyway not providing any excuse, for I do stand by my statements…and they are more nuanced than you would like to think. Besides, it isn’t that you have been on my side all along and suddenly this exposition has hit you like a bolt from the blue…in fact, it fits in with your firmly-held views about me.

FYI, the ‘Hindu’ party did not come into existence as late as early 90s, as you say…it was a there much before and was a part of the JD government.

[That`s how it all starts. If Laloo plays vote-bank game with muslims [ and you ``educated people`` go ga ga over it] - you can bet ur a$$ somebody is going to do the same with hindus. And lo and behold - hindutva is born.]

I hope the other gentleman reads this quote carefully. You are suggesting that Hindutva is what happens when Hindus become a vote-bank (which they are already).
- - -
[Do the slumdwellers really care about what educated muslims like the author or myself have to say about OBL and his jehadism?? -
Ofcourse they look up to the elites as a reference of their aspirations and achievements all the time . And our `educated` elites make it a point to ensure that they pay appropriate respects to their Mullahs all the time.]

Go to the slums. They will listen to celebrities like Ms. Azmi, not to Syed Shahabuddin. Or like any economically disadvantaged group they could be bought and taken in trucks to vote. The ‘elites’ you talk about are the mullahs paying respects to one other.

If researching through my articles has provided you with enough ammo to rubbish a section of people, then think again. Had the same things been said by a Westerner or a ‘secular’ academician you would not have reacted in a similar fashion. Bringing in semantics will not help.

[Speaking against the ideology of Al-Qaeda and speaking ABOUT Al-Qaeda as a consequence of American policies are two different things- my point is that the educated Indian Muslims should take a firm political stance against the most heinous spin off of the literalist Islam.]

When these same Muslims protest against the war in Iraq or Afghanistan, they are told that they are identifying with Arab roots. So, now why do you want them to take a political stand on an issue that has nothing to do with them? On what grounds must IMs be made answerable? Have you read the responses on this board carefully? Did you see the support for Modi?

[I CAN SEE you trying to force in my head that Hindutva = Hinduism , I FAIL TO GET INCITED by you because I have taken pains to learn about Hinduism by studying Hindu Philosophies than relying on the nonsense that RSS says about hindutva or what OBL has to say about Islam.]

Oh dear…next I will be accused of trying to take poor animals for halal slaughter. I don’t understand why you need to generalise.

[#70 by FarzanaVersey on February 4, 2005 0:00am PT
This board is on its ways out. Clear revelations in evidence here...

- Hindutva has been elevated to a philosophy outside of the political realm and is seen as synonymous with Hinduism.
- Beneath the garb of accusing someone of being `anti-Hindu`, some interactors can conveniently take up cudgels on behalf of the perpetrators of an Establishment-buffered genocide.]

And in my first post, this is what I wrote…

[In the whole article not once have I used the term ‘Hindus’ (the single usage is from a quote and it is not a negative reference) or implied the involvement of the community and yet this is what one gets in response:

“Gosh - you people under-estimate us so much. You hardly know us , do you ? Go ahead , and spread the word about how the hindus burnt themselves alive. Sooner than later , people of India will react - the same way the people of Gujarat did , following the events of Godhra.”

Us?? You people?? Would it be a conspiracy theory then if I say that a sizeable number of Hindus identify with the Hindutva parties? If you read the above quote, would you say I am “dreaming” about the fissures, the Us vs. Them divide that is now festering in many minds? That there is a section of people who do indeed believe in the ridiculous action-reaction theory?]

This obviously does not bother you…
- - -
I will be chivalrous enough and let you gentlemen have the last word, if you so desire. I have never had a searing ambition to convert people to my point of view. Thanks for interacting anyway…

//...invariably Muslims are said to have allegiance with some jihadist forces. ..//

Well - i can see why. If the educated people like you could be an admirer of OBL, what can I say.

//...IMs are never jiahdists. ...//

Actually - let me qualify that statement. I should NOT have been so categorical in the first place.

There is atleast one IM who has admiration for jihadists. After seeing your admiration for OBL and the fact that you have devised all sorts of theories to support his ideals - that`s the conclusion I can draw.

Thanks Ballu for exposing this person for what she is.

//...latter can at worst be accused of vote-bank politics...//

That`s how it all starts. If Laloo plays vote-bank game with muslims [ and you ``educated people`` go ga ga over it] - you can bet ur a$$ somebody is going to do the same with hindus. And lo and behold - hindutva is born.

+++

//...I think it speaks volumes that in in India you do not have a single `Muslim` party ...//

And there wasn`t a hindu party either, until 90`s. When you play with the fire of votebank politics - this is what happens. The worst part is - lesson is not learnt. Laloo is still playing his dirty game - and the people are still going ga ga over him.

Anycase - It`s the nature of the population distribution that hampers formation of a muslim party - Not for lack of trying or desire on part of a communal muslims. Wherever there is a critical mass - you bet there is a muslim party. Example -Kerala.

So no - it doesn`t speak volumes about nothing. Don`t go papering over the existence wide-spread communal elements inside muslim community. There may not be jihadis among the ranks [atleast not yet] but that doesn`t mean there aren`t hardcore communalists a la Modi among muslims.

http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00003304&channel=civic%20center&order=0&start=530&end=539&page=54&chapter=6

And ofcourse one of the other loony theories propunded by you about Christian ``Crusades`` as a reason for the War on Terror in order to check the growth of Islam worldwide :-

``You are spot on, and damn the damnation that will come your way. The West has been hugely responsible for giving Islam this dour face, and the greatest slap to it has been the fact that Islam is the fastest growing religion. It is naturally worried sick. So, it hits back with the ‘civilized’ intellectual version of the Crusades.``