The world of the Wise Lord

if you say “Adaab” in Pakistan, people would think you are crazy

That is coz Punjabis are lukhas who will take Aaa Daab as an invitation to dabao when said by a woman. ;)

Romair,

Both Humsab and dullabhatti are correct. Many Pakistanis are not aware of or simply refuse to believe their Hindu roots. Barring a few families in Sindh and about 5% who can claim some parts of their bodies of Iran or central Asian and Arabic origin or what not, most of us Indians and Pakistani have similar roots.
I have known some people who were astonished when I said that their ancestors were Hindu because they shared their family name with Hindus. Most immigrants from India, are just too adamant that they are direct descendent of the prophet or his Shahaba!
You will not find a single urdu speaking Shia who would admit some Hindu roots.
Some Sindhi last names that are common in both Hindus or Muslims of Sindh: Ursani, Pandihani, Dosani, etc. etc.
In sindh the last name ``Sheikh`` is a give away about ones Hindu roots. I think that is true in Bengal also. So Sheikh Mujib had Hindu roots. (thats why he broke up pakistan. Jamaat Islami was right after all :)

Pakistani and Indians have cultural similarities but there are many differences too.
In India, most Muslims would use “Adaab” for greetings to Hindus or even within themselves; but if you say “Adaab” in Pakistan, people would think you are crazy.

In all provinces in Pakistan, people have local customs for greeting like in Sindh if you are an elder, people may touch your feet for respect. The words for greetings are not assalam alaikum but “Bhalli karay Aiya!”.
Baloch, Pathan, and Punjabi as you know it have different words to greet people. In Sindh recently under Urdu Speaking influence, some Sindhis have begun to use Asslam alaikum.

Indian and Pakistani differences are similar to white folks in Europe or even in the US. Most of them come from the same stock and they share many other cultural traits. (One similarity: Their foods suck! except French food though!) Still they are citizens of different countries with different political aspirations.

Btw, Sounds like you are from Kahuta.

romair ji

What you are saying may be partially true in the case of rajputs converts. I once met a pakistani panjabi Jatt whose surname is a very common surname in India. Perhaps I look like a perfect idiot and thats why he told me how is father`s ancestor came with mughals etc. I pointedly addressed him using his surname (Mr.

---

) but he was not ready to take the hint that his surname is sure giveaway. I kept smiling and listening. once I met a person with khatri surname and he was also narrating his family history on similar lines. Let me state it here again that neither jatt not khatri are by any means lower castes in castes hierarchy. Even if you ignore these personal experiences, many columnists in Pakistani newspapers have confirmed this.

Regards

Dost Mitter ji

Indians do accept the fact that mass conversions may have occurred but not voluntarly on large scale. Many times it may have happened to be on the right side of ruler or to get out of financial misery and even finding solace spiritually. Indian history written by communists have glossed over many uncomfortable issue to ensure peace and harmony and there is nothing wrong with that either.

A few years back when Bosnia conflict was on I read a few articles how the population in this area became muslim. When that land was conquered by the muslims then land automatically comes into the possession of conquerors. If locals conquered want their land back then they have to convert. This leaves very little choice to people whose means of livelihood is land. So, they are expected to queue on their own to convert. This is what happened wherever Islamic imperialists went. I am confident that same phenomenon happened in India also and that explain coversion of jatts in Punjab.

This belief was further strengthened when a few months back in a programme on QTv, a Maulana was explaining the meaning of Ushar and another similar term. As per Islamic rules and regulation, when muslims conquer another country then land possessed by Kafirs is automatically confiscated. If Kafir becomes muslim before getting defeated then his land is returned and if he does later then again land is returned but he has to pay some sort of tax which is perhaps called Ushar or some other word.

In such circumstances people particularly farming community did not have much chance or hope without conversion. I am sure people must have fought valianty to retain their identity and belief but economic compulsions may have made them to accept reality. Lower castes of course had every genuine reason to convert but even they have not converted en masse.

Regards

BTW I have noticed your interest lately in Bulleh Shah and other Punjabi poetry...may be we can some day enjoy buffet at Brar`s in Brampton.:-)

Romair, believe me I did not intentionally run into people who don`t use their last names...in fact I probably intentionally ran into people had highest chance to use such name:-). ..anyway majority of Pakistanis shun away from such names and prefer some Arabi word instead. That can be observed from any list of Pakistani names from bhangis to rocket scientists.:-)

Indian (or hindu if you will) ``culture`` comprises of rites or samskaras. I dont recall precisely, but there are 12 some major rites, pretty much followed all over india. birth, naming, ear-piercing, first-food, school-entrance, sacred thread, coming-of-age (for women), marriage (sorry, no divorce), getting a male great-grandson, death-mourning are some which come to my mind. These samskaras are Vedic .. they trace back to vedic times.

an imported cultural rite is that of circumcision.

Re:Romair#141

Indian public opinion is not as fickle as you imagine. When it has been against Pakistan (mostly during the nineties), it has always been targeted at the Pakistani government and establishment. Two things happened during the nineties. First was the jihadi policies pursued in Kashmir, where the indigenous struggle got corrupted by the Pakistani strategy of bleeding India using jihad. Second was the rise of BJP and hindu nationalism as a political force. It is a coincidence that both happened at the same time. Even then, the hatred has been against the Pakistani government and the establishment. At the people level, there has always been goodwill.

Now that we see that the jihad is practically over and that the BJP has been sidelined, the natural goodwill is surfacing again. We do need more and more people to people contacts to build up on it.

Further to #144 I mean - are you talking values, language, modes of production (a la Marx), religion, physical surroundings (urban, rural, wealthy, poor). One needs to be very specific if one is to compare.

To my mind the only significant aspect of culture is values. Everything else is frivilous and subject to change anyway over time.

Romair #143,
Ofcourse, every region of India has variations in its cultural aspects. But urban India is moving towards a common culture, largely because every city is now heterogenous and ofcourse intermarraige. Still things vary a bit from place to place but not by much. India is moving towards a single culture, and I would expect the same in Pakistan.

Romair: What is culture?

dost-mittar #139: I actually don`t know how the Hindus arrived or orginated in India. If they were the indigenous people, as you say, then it is their land from origination. Hence they did not convert nor replace anyone.........Everyone thus coming into their land, militarily, would be an invader, including, everyone from Mohd. Bin Qasim, onwards.........

vivek #``What do you think of Pakistani culture - is it different from India i.e a combo of central asian and india ?(and thus not the same as Indian) or is it the same as India`s culture?``

From whatever I have seen, I don`t think there is, as such, a Pakistani culture. There is a Punjabi/Kashmiri culture, Baluchi culture, Sindhi culture, Pathan culture and Muhajir culture.

The combination of this is some kind of a Pakistani culture. The only addition Pakistan has made to it, is a single language and pre-dominantly a single religion.

At the same, it would be hard for me to believe that there is a single Indian culture either. Infact, there are probably far more Indian cultures. And the common factor across these Indian cultures is also a majority common religion (even though India is constitutinally a secular country).

My guess is, and this is what I have seen also, the Punjabi, ``culture`` amongst Indians and Pakistanis has more in common with each other, than with Tamil and Baluchi areas etc., respectively. Amongst other things, the languages are the same, across the borders.....I suppose the same would be true for Muhajirs and Sindhis........and any other area with a common history........

dullahbhatti #140: ``Lately I am seeing more and more Pakistanis paying attention to this part of their heritage and appending these names with them...even younger participants on internet are getting aware of it.........I think Pakistanis have been wrongly associating these names with Caste system.......I see a welcome change in Pakistani society in this respect.``

I am not sure how many Pakistanis actually understand, which caste their names have originated from, barring a few prominent names. I certainly did not know...........

At the same time, Pakistanis have been using these same last names for ages. As I said, it is quite common. All my cousins, aunts, nephews, fifth and tenth cousins have my last name. Which is a Hindu name, apprently. If you are interested in meeting Pakistanis with such names, do visit my village. I can introduce you to around 1000 people with that last name. The whole village has the same last name. And they have had it for generations.........

I don`t know which one of the Pakistani Hindu last names belongs historically to lower castes. So I cannot say with certainity if any of them changed it. But my guess is that the reason you haven`t noticed Pakistani with their historical Hindu last names is not because they do not exist in large numbers. It is because you aren`t familiar with the number of people who have such names.........,i.e. it is not a recent phenomenon........

amit#137: ``The Indian mindset about Pakistan has swung from one extreme to another and is now tyring to settle down into a pragmatic middle ground.``

You are generally correct. With one exception, in my opinion. And that is the point I have been trying to make here:

The fact that Indian opinions are fluctuating does not mean that the Pakistanis are fluctuating. Pakistanis have generally been the same all along. They were the same, when they were shown as villians in Pukar, Mission Kashmir etc. two years ago, and they are the same even though they are shown as friends in Veer-Zara today. However, Indian opinion keeps fluctuating based on the latest movie or the latest statement from the Indian govt. (or the Pakistan govt.).

This is what I am against. I think Indians need to get to know the real situation and views of Pakistan. And not base their view on the latest Sunny Deol flavor of the month thriller. The reason Indians were overwhelmed during the cricket series is not because Pakistanis were overly nice. They were overwhelmed because they had come in with strange ridiculous fears about Pakistanis dangling from trees trying to kill them. So even if a Pakistani ended up being a normal guy, and said, ``Hello,`` Indians were pleased.

I am saying this as someone who has been interacting, at all levels (family, social, professional) with Indians for over ten years now. 30-60% of my daily professional interaction is with Indians, including my daily lunch. And around 20% of my family social interaction is with Indians.

The kinds of questions I am asked about Pakistan sometimes leave, both me and my wife, amazed (as do some of the comments on this site). The questions seem to originate directly from the movies about Pakistan, shown in India. At the moment, the trend amongst our Indian friends is to say, ``Aadaab,`` since that is what is (incorrectly) shown in Veer-Zara`s Lahore. If my wife doesn`t show up at a party, half the Indians politely ask me if she is wearing a hijab and observing purdah at home. The moment they see anything religous in my house, they assume I must be a maulvi.

One of my close friends was worried sick that the Indian cricket team would be killed in Pakistan. He was thinking of going, but he was afraid of the treatment he would get in Pakistan. I was unable to convince him that nobody in Pakistan would do anything to him nor to the cricket team.

But most of all, all the hundreds of conversations I have had with Indian colleagues, have all been one-sided. My discussing India with them. Not a single one of them can discuss Pakistan with me for more than two minutes. They want to, but they have no idea what the hell happens in Pakistan (and they are too polite to mention anything negative, which is what they have mostly heard in India).

I should be visiting India sometime soon. I have never been there before. But I can say with a lot of surity that I don`t think anyone is going to try to kill me there. Nor will I be overwhelmed if someone says, ``hello`` to me. I think my picture of India, though not completely accurate, would be far more realistic than the average Indian`s perception of Pakistan........

This is the disconnect. And at the expense of dost-mittar, once again passing a declaration that I am degenerating everything to India/Pak contests, I am merely trying to point out that Indians should not make any final judgements about Pakistan, until they are quite sure they really know what is going on there.

It is not a crime to be misinformed about a place. It is also not a crime to be un-informed about a place. But I do think it is somewhat of a crime to have very strong and conclusive opinions about a people and a place, when one is actully quite un-informed about it..........

P.S. This is not to say that Pakistanis are not misinformed about India also. They are as well.........

Romair, about 15 years ago when I first came in contact with Pakistanis and started knowing about Punjabis particularly, in real life I did not come accross any Pakistani Punjabis who would use his native last name like Sethi, Bhullar, Dhillon etc. for years....many of them knew their native family names would often say, that their family is also xyz but no one uses that name now...When I started reading Pakistani newspapers then I started coming accross these names used by some prominent Pakistanis also. Lately I am seeing more and more Pakistanis paying attention to this part of their heritage and appending these names with them...even younger participants on internet are getting aware of it.

I think Pakistanis have been wrongly associating these names with Caste system. It is true that every sirname/familyname falls to some caste category in Hindu varun system but these familynames are not castes themselves. They are family names heritage just like Goldstein, Shroeder, Berger etc...if one is knowledge about it one can guess where are what background the person is but that does not acertain what the person is. e.g. a Bhatti could be a Sikh, Hindu or Muslim...further he could be a farmer, engineer, driver etc...all Bhatti tells is his ancestors were Rajputs and lvied somewhere in west Punjabi for centuries.

I see a welcome change in Pakistani society in this respect.

Romair:

``And before Hinduism arrived in India, there must have been some population of other believers, who were exterminated and/or converted. No one talks about them?``

Where did Hindus come from? I am not aware of any other place in the world where Hinduism is known to have existed.

You may be referring to the Aryan invasion theory, which was invented/postulated by european orientalists in the 19th century and held sway over Indian intellectuals for more than a century. This is now being hotly contested by a new generation of historians. From what I have seen, both sides are using arguments which are based on tenuous architectural and linguistic evidence and the jury is still out on whether Aryans came from outside or were indigenous to India. What is however uncontested is that Aryan is an indigenous (sanskrit) word which means nobility and not a racist term.

Whether Aryans came from outside or not, Hindus of whatever caste do not trace their origin to anywhere but India. And if Aryans did come from outside, the religion they settled for was a result of combining beliefs of earlier inhabitants with theirs.

Even if Aryans did not come from outside, there were several other ethnic groups - greeks, huns, parthias and others - who did come to India from outside. They did not exterminate or convert the locals to their faiths. Most probably, their faiths merged seamlessly into the commonwealth of religions that hinduism is. The same did not happen with Islam since it is prosleytising, uncompromising in its belief system, more than a faith and a complete way of life with its own legal system. If Islam had been even a little bit compromising, Hindus would have made it their own religion, adding Muhammad to its endless list of avtars. Indeed, when it did become a little less rigid during Akbar`s time, the result was sufis whose mazars are lit by `deevas` like in a hindu temple. The irony is that it is Hindus who now worship these muslim sufis, such as Kabir and Farid whose compositions are sung as bhajans in the Hindu temples while the Muslims have practically abandoned them as `shirk`. [the most recent example is that of the original Sai Baba of Shirdi]

Romair,
What do you think of Pakistani culture - is it different from India i.e a combo of central asian and india ?(and thus not the same as Indian) or is it the same as India`s culture?